BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!

Subject: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: wilco
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 05:49 PM

There are many of us who appreciate these men for their leadership. We admire them for their moral courage and resolve.

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 05:54 PM

I agree with you. Both Bush and Blair show courage in sending others into war, resolve in denying evident truths, and Bush especially shows morality in the way he takes elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:01 PM

It is true they showed they had the courage to stand up and engage in war.

What I consider most unfortunate is that they did not have the courage to stand up and refrain from war.

As for "leadership" I can only say that Attilla was a fine leader of men too. I guess it depends on your definition of terms.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:12 PM

If they'd only lied about a blowjob instead of faking evidence to precipitate a war....

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: TIA
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:40 PM

If the war was really about humanitarian liberation of the Iraqi people, why didn't they have the courage to sell it as such?

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:47 PM

TIA - Blair did !

Just remember, there is more to calling yourself a peace activist than singing "We Shall Overcome"

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:48 PM

I have the courage of my convictions-

YOU are a bit stubborn and self-righteous-

HE is dangerous, pig-headed fool.

paraphrase from Sidney J. Harris

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: TIA
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:50 PM

Gareth please clarify the "We Shall Overcome" reference. Whhoooosh - totally over my head.

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 06:55 PM

He didn't really - I mean, what he said was, and I think this is a fair paraphrase, not in any way a quote, "the grounds for the war is the need to get rid of the weapons of mass destruction we know Saddam has, which threaten us - but if in the course of this we can get rid of this evil dictator it will be a very welcome bonus".

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:00 PM

Yes, thank you, Adolf & Benito. Hang in there. Do not let the naysayers and nitpickers get you down. Your courage and tenacity stirs admiration in all who value freedom and justice, and you will no doubt be exonerated by history in due time...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:08 PM

Point proven Kevin !

Little Hawk - I am appalled to see you come out in your true colours. I find this particulally galling when there are far to many retrospective justifiers of Hitler arround. But then your posted love for Weapons should have been an indicator.

TIA - Dont worry, it wasn't over anybody elses head.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:09 PM

Did you understand everything I think I thought I said, or did my twist get all tongued up around my eye tooth so that I could not see what I was saying? Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:16 PM

I suspect Gareth has his tongue stuck tight in his cheek. I certainly hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Leo Condie
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:22 PM

We have to remember the famous quote: All it takes for evil men to win is for a few power-crazed lunatics to build the biggest and most economically successful nation in the world and then go round other countries blowing the shit out of them. Or did I mis-remember?

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Leo Condie
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:23 PM

oh and I am the only one who noticed the thread title could be read as Bullshit Moral Courage?

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:23 PM

Point proven all right Gareth - but my point, not yours.

If he'd said something on the lines of "Well, there comes a time when doing the morally right thing is more important than doing the legally right thing, and this is one of them", than your point would have been proved. But he didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:31 PM

You have no idea, Gareth! I adore Darth Vader too, and I just can't understand why people don't universally admire Mike Tyson for his courage, character, and grace under pressure. Wanna come over and see my bowie knife collection and ninja stuff? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Leo Condie
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:32 PM

Remember the Alamo, Little Hawk!

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:38 PM

Kevin - My point not yours - remember Ann Clywdd.

Well LH talk's peace but prepares for war.

And what was the alternative. Sanctions, well the Oil for Food program seems to have been oil for palaces and weapons.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:39 PM

Remember the Maine, Leo! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Deckman
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 07:55 PM

Jeezus ... shades of Ollie North again! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 08:03 PM

The alternative was not to plan on and launch an unprovoked, illegal war of aggression for very spurious reasons, and to lift the embargo, and to treat Iraq as a sovereign country despite the fact that they are not perfect and don't always do exactly what you would like them to do. That was the alternative. The events of 911 were falsely used (by default) to maneuver the American public into supporting a completely unnecessary war of aggression on Iraq, and I'm sure that Osama Bin Laden and the Saudis are quite pleased about it, since they both hated Saddam and the Baath Party with a passion.

But it all depends on your basic biases as to how you will see it. People filter information according to their prejudices, and ours just happen to be different, Gareth, that's all.

How am I preparing for war? Are you referring to the dachshunds perhaps? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 08:13 PM

wilco48, before you start a thread like this, you should issue airsick bags!

These two people you seem to admire so much may indeed have the courage of their convictions, but their convictions are what's in question. A couple of hungry barracuda have the courage of their convictions and a whole lot of resolve also, but allowing them to be in charge of a couple of countries and a huge military machine is not too bright an idea.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Hillheader
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 08:22 PM

Gareth

Tory Blur is the best conservative PM the UK has ever had --- or been had by.

Iraq could launch WMD's in 45 minutes was as likely as me running a marathon in the same time. He lied to the people, he lied to Parliament, and because of that British soldiers died.

So let's say he was right to simply wage war to oust Saddam. Who not Mugabe in Zimbabwe?

Davebhoy

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Alba
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 08:25 PM

So much for thinking the Thread was going to be funny!
Moral Courage
Bush and Blair
Thanks.
Seems there is three points being discussed here as there is no connection between the three subjects listed:>)
JD

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 07:13 AM

WOW! was this thread well named BS!
Speaking of convictions, my reps to congress know what I want of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 10:44 AM

Wilco, haven't the inconsistancies (even if you don't consider them 'out and out lies') made your resolve waver a bit? These men made up stuff to send their troops to war. That's what Hitler did.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Yvonne
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 11:10 AM

Following the death of Dr David Kelly reported in the press today--Blair should at the very least hang his head in shame! He should go--the Iraqi war was based on lies.
Bush and his advisers can be excused--they are people of little intellect.

Diz

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: wilco
Date: 19 Jul 03 - 12:14 PM

Thank you for your kind commentary. I appreciate your insights, but I've already raised my children.

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: GUEST,Boab D
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 03:04 AM

Well the only think linking these words are bush is joined to blair and its all sexuall. Cant be anything else can it cos Bush isn't really clever enough to have a conversation with Blair never mind dictate the foreign policy of the uk. However I think that Mr Blair has the whole world fooled and he's the one pulling the strings on both sides of the pond. Think about it. Here is a man who is trying to be this big international mediator cant be seen to be a war monger so he goes and see's his daft wee pal(well he knows a dafty)in bush tells him a wee story and voila there you have america leading the war effort with the british conveniantly behind them no matter what. Then when all the post conflict stuff comes out into the open guess what happens. Oh My Goodness All the information came from Tony Blair because america were to stupid to gather there own inteligence. Now we have people killing them selves people dying for the right thing and people living in terror. But hey at leats America has there greedy hands on the oil that they so need.
Bring the troops hame and let the world sort its own affairs as we have enough poverty in each of our countries with out taking on everyone elses shit.
Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: DougR
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 06:53 PM

I've been moving so I haven't had much time to get on the Mudcat for the past two or three weeks. It's nice to see it hasn't changed in my absense.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:01 PM

welcom back DougR - I may not agree with some/many of your posts but thank the Lawd there are some other non automations around.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:07 PM

It has changed! There are 35% less references daily to William Shatner than there were 6 months ago. Wait...make that 34%, now that I've posted this one...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:11 PM

automations? what is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:14 PM

Me too Doug, though I was busy with my Fathers funeral at Arlington.

But not to put too fine a point on it, with all of the talk of "Lies" etc.; Can anyone, anywhere, point out any statement by any Democrat, member of the UN, or any person connected with the run-up to the war who said at anytime that there were NOT weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, prior to the conflict?

Thought so...

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:15 PM

Automation is the replacing of human labour with machines. I believe the word Gareth was looking for was "automaton" (a robot, one who behaves in a robotic manner...or one who disagrees with Gareth, in other words...). (snicker)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 07:49 PM

Ooooh pedantic LH, but I'll give you the stripe. Actually Automaton is the correct spelling. ie those who see the word G W Bush junior and who can not refrain from criticism the US of A.

Tho in the 'Cat, well some 'Catters, Automation might be correct.

Hey welcom back Claymore - Don't expect me to support GWB right or wrong, buts let confound those who think that thier measure of Human Rights is knowing all the words to "We Shall Overcome".

Gareth

"Oh Stalin wasn't stalling, when he told the Beast of Berlin ..."

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: mg
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 08:28 PM

well I went to a Catholic school and we sang we shall overpopulate..mg

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 08:51 PM

The democrats, being out of power, had no access to such information. I'm sure you know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 09:02 PM

"Can anyone, anywhere, point out any statement by any Democrat, member of the UN, or any person connected with the run-up to the war who said at anytime that there were NOT weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, prior to the conflict?"

To say there were *no* weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, prior to the conflict would have been as irresponsible as it was to say that there *were* WMDs. Nobody knows. The inspectors were not allowed by Mr Bush to complete their inspections.

On the other hand, I am convinced that North Korea does have WMDs, as well as an evil ruler. How many of y'all are for a pre-emptive war against North Korea?

The WMD hassle is ultimately beside the point, except as an indication that you can't trust the government, & some of us knew that anyway.

The war was wrong for the same reason that pre-emptive hanging of people is wrong. It's not good to lynch either good guys or bad guys. Even if you lynch them courageously.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Jul 03 - 10:07 PM

Well, Claymore, my friend, I find the words *you* used, "run up to war",.... somewhat baffling. "Run up to war." Hmmmmmm? Why would anyone in their right (no pun intended) mind, ahhhh, "run up to war"?

Like what's the hurry?

Sounds like a PR thing to me. Whadddayathink? Maybe there was a bit of, ahhhh, haste?

And if so, what's that all about?

These are logical questions to ask, Claymore, and others...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Deda
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 12:05 AM

I don't call it courage to send other people's children into the path of bullets. Julius Caesar rode in front of his troops wearing a bright red cape, so that all his men could see him (and the enemy could, too). His men loved him. Hannibal, similarly, was famous for living and fighting on exactly the same terms as his men, eating the same rations, sleeping on the ground with them, etc. Bush and Blair don't have moral courage. They assign that to other people -- mostly kids under the age of 25. Bush used family connections to sidestep any danger himself at that age.

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 07:14 AM

No surprises for Bobert & Co., but I am completely with wilco48 on this one.

Post 911, both current US and UK governments took stock and saw with respect to Iraq, and the total lack of action on the part of the United Nations, a threat that potentially could only get worse with the passage of time.

Yes it did require the exercise of leadership, the courage of conviction and strength of purpose to bring the situation to a head - They were not responsible for the war, for reasons best known to himself, credit for that belongs to Saddam Hussein - he could after all have co-operated fully first with UNSCOM & IAEA, or latterly with UNMOVIC & IAEA - please do not ignore that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 12:58 PM

What threat was that?

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: DougR
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 01:01 PM

Yes, Teribus, it will come as no surprise to anyone here that I agree.

Claymore: I'm sorry to hear about your dad.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 01:41 PM

I repeat. What threat?

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 01:55 PM

Teribus:

Answer the man's question, here. That was the hinge point of the whole period you called "run-up" -- the assertion of threat.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 02:07 PM

Click Here

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Jul 03 - 02:36 PM

Also sorry to hear about your dad, Claymore--

DougR--glad you're back--

Subject: RE: BS: Moral Courage: Bush and Blair. Thanks!!!
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Jul 03 - 04:17 AM

Thanks Gareth you have saved me the trouble.

Kendall, Amos - read through it

It refers to the material known to exist from Iraqi inventories, reported by UNSCON and entirely unaccounted for.

It refers to the strong likelyhood that Iraq was actively pursuing missle development programmes proscribed under UN Security Council Resolutions. Did UNMOVIC find such a programme on their return to Iraq - the answer to that question is yes.

As to the remainder - it is still very early days yet - the only difference is that the US are hitting the problem with an inspection team 1,200 strong (four times that of the UN) and many of the main Ba'athist players are in US custody, with the threat of intimidation of minor players greatly reduced.

The objectives are:

1. Find out, beyond all reasonable doubt, i.e. in a verifiable form, what happened to the stocks detailed in UNSCOM's Report.

2. Establish whether, or not, WMD programmes relating to the development of WMD and WMD capability were being actively pursued by Saddam Hussein and the Ba'athist regime. Due to recent action by Coalition forces we know with a high degree of certainty that no such programmes are in place at the moment.