BS: an insight regarding autism

Subject: BS: an insight regarding autism?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:08 PM

It has always been said that autism concerns the wiring.

Armed with one new bit of information about autism which is that autistic brains are larger, I had what seems to be an interesting idea. When I say larger I mean quite a bit larger. A four year old autistic brain is as large as a normal 7 year old brain.

When it comes to certain cells be they neurons or muscles the old axiom is true, if we don't use it we lose it.

We are born with near total redundancy when it comes to neurons. Even tiny muscle fibers are "double" wired. The fine tuning of muscles and brain cells actually involves disolving the less powerful or less used redundant neuron until there is just one to serve the intended purpose. There are certain proteins that do this job which in turn must be switched on by something in our genome.

You see, autistic brains stay double or triple wired. They are not refineing down to one connection per purpose. If you have experience with autism this may ring a bell regarding certain reactions and behaviors. While there is great intelligence there is also great confusion which sometimes reaches the point of overwhelming the entire consciousness.

Anyway this might already be old hat but I thought it best to write it down before a migraine washes this idea frpm the front of the mind.

There is no cause or cure in this insight but looking for the gene and the protein respondsible for eliminating the redundant nerve cells could be a good direction for research to go.

Also it might be good to know how autistic people react to diseases that limit or kills certain neuronal connections. While MS is not one of those degenerative nerve cell syndromes it too may be less severe in autistic people by virtue of the redundancy that is perpetually retained.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:12 PM

This may also explain why seemingly normal kids start to display autism at certain early ages corresponding to rapid brain growth.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:28 PM

Have you seen any credible evidence that explains why the numbers of autism cases had risen so dramatically over the course of the last few years?

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:42 PM

My wife is in childhood development and pathology and seems brainswashed to the idea that mercury in vaccines could not possibly cause autism. I am in the opposite camp while I do share her view that we certainly can diagonose the syndrome far better and more often today.

I speculate that chemical pollution or a neuro toxin might interfers with future nerve cell development within our damaged gamete cells but that isn't proven. Nor would chemical companies want it proven.

This may not be so far out since 100% of all American men have PCB in their gamete cells (sperm)
The PCB moves in and kicks out one DNA rung on the ladder and sits there. IF detected the DNA should reject it when replication occurs but apparently it misses it and lets PCB stay in the gamete chromosme.

All bug poisons act on the nervous system of the bug to kill bugs.
Maybe it acts on ours too.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Wesley S
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:43 PM

It seems to affect boys 4 to 1 over girls too. I've seen maps that overlap areas of metals pollution with large populations of autistic kids. I know my son has a problem processing metals out of his system.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:48 PM

If the PCB idea ever had credible evidence, General Electric (the source of virtually all PCB contamination) would have a lot of 'splainin' to do and enough lawsuits to last 1000 years.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Becca72
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:53 PM

vaccines have been used for, what, well over 70 years and yet the number of cases of autism is increasing dramatically. That makes me question any link between the two. What else is happening to make the numbers rise so much?

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:55 PM

So, that's probably why it isn't happening, right?

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 04:56 PM

Genetics has been seen as the cause, but perhaps the genetics is being changed rapidly by the dissoltion of information on the Y chromosme due to PCBs or some other factor.


Like denying global warming there are those (paid agents) who call the autism explosion rubbish.
http://www.autismwebsite.com/ari/newsletter/explosion.htm


Unintended unforseen consequences can be a bitch.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 05:03 PM

I thought the explosion in autism was a well established fact. How, otherwise, would you explain all of the new cases?

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 05:07 PM

One would reason however that a random loss of a couple of pairs of sugars in an entire gene would result in a specific abnormality every 1 in 400 times.

We need to look at gamete cells for missing info on the Y chromosome to see what we can find.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 05:10 PM

Yeah its as real as global warming. One could argue that there may even be a tipping point for the human genome.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 05:21 PM

I went to the web-site, but it wasn't clear to me why the CDC didn't use the resources Congress gave them to research the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 06:37 PM

This just popped up in the news, but I don't know if the link will work.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080109/ap_on_he_me/autism_gene;_ylt=AiqmrX8OuLMdS.0uqCTrcNis0NUE

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 08:45 PM

It says gene #16 is missing.

This is along my line of thinking that PCB substitution could cause genes to go missing. Finding out if research is being done on this question should not be too hard.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:02 PM

Well, that takes me back to my previous question. If Congress appropriated money to spend on this research, do we know what happened to the money? I mean, assuming the research wasn't done.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 09:12 PM

Yes Congress knows. I personally know the people who check. And yes when research is either sloppy or not done reserchers don't get any more money or they don't get paid at all. The checkers state the contractor is in default and the researcher gets nothing or they can default the contract "for the convenience of the goverment" ( actual terminology)

If on the other hand if you are asking about a specific research project, then I don't know.

yet

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:02 PM

The Mayo Clinic says estimates are that 3 to 6 of every 1000 children have autism. "A recent increase in the number of autism cases in the United States may be the result of improved diagnosis and changes in diagnostic criteria."
"The severity of symptoms is variable"

My guess- The improved diagnostic techniques are picking up cases that would have remained undiagnosed and that accounts for the increase. But I dunno.

Many with mild symproms can function almost normally, and would not have been recognized in the past. Perhaps the kids we once regarded as just peculiar, or were 'behind the door when the brains were passed out' were autistic.

A good general summary here: Autism

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:11 PM

Interesting theories, Don. Worth pursuing, IMO.

There also seems to have been an upswing in ADHD/ADD, whatever. It also affects more boys than girls, but again, I have no idea if there is an acutal increase in the percentages or an increase in diagnostic tools.

These were probably the kids (boys mostly) who dropped out of school as early as possible, helped Dad on the farm or went into the military as early as possible.

There also does seem to be some genetic link to the ADHD/ADD but no one (that I know of) has been able to pinpoint it.

I DO know that when I get a migraine (no aura with mine) I am hypersensitive to everything--sound, light, color, touch, smell, etc. Just everything. I can't imagine living like that even without the acutal pain of the migraine.

IF that is how autism is (or sometimes is) no wonder these kids withdraw.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:21 PM

If the Mayo Clinic is doing research, it's probably well documented--most of us would be surprised if it wasn't. But what Donuel seems to be describing is a "contractor." It just seems like something is missing--like Blackwater is involved, or something.

             The ADD-ADHD thing is weird as well. And most of the victims are boys in all cases. Donuel's supposition seems to make sense, at least to me, but I don't have any background in this kind of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Jan 08 - 11:29 PM

Rigin, I have known girls who were diagnosed as ADD/ADHD, but it isn't common at all. It does seem to be a 'sex linked' thing in most cases.

I'm also beginning to question a lot of the diagnoses. Do these kids REALLY have a problem or is it our culture, society, education sysmtem, etc?

They aren't 'stupid' they just need different techniques to learn. I'm considering the right brain/left brain indicators also. It appears that the dominant side of the brain determines just how we learn and the methods are not the same.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Bee
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:24 AM

I've worked with ADD/ADHD, autism spectrum and Asperger's diagnosed girls - and boys.

I am on the 'weren't diagnosed in the past' side. Doctors labelled them FLKs (funny looking kid - we know something seems wrong but we have no idea what) or they were 'bad' kids in school or they dropped out in Grade six.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:44 AM

Most autistic kids have a serious, receptive language disability. This indicates auditory processing difficulties.

I think we will have to take a close look at auditory input and the pathway to the brain.

Imagine living in a world where your visual perception was accompanied by an auditory delay so that the information you see does not match what you hear. A world where every tonal change caused pain or loud sounds were garbled and indistinguishable. In this world, you may not even know if the sound is directed at you. Maybe you have no way of filtering sound.

Thats why a very structured, visual schedule is important to autistic students. Its very hard for them to make any sense of an auditory world and while this is not a 'hearing' problem, we know very little about what causes damage to the auditory nerves and the pathways that allow us to communicate.

Hearing and language begin in the womb. Damage can occur at any time and in our noisy world, I often wonder if auditory trauma could cause autism. I'm just glad that these kids are being diagnosed and treatments are being explored. I think its much more humane than putting them in asylums. Thats what would have happened not so long ago. Luckily, we now recognize that autistic children show a wide range of intelligence and we are learning how to meet their needs.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 06:27 AM

The "explosion" in autism is probably in diagnosis. Simply, the definition has got a lot broader. Whereas only acute cases, involving total withdrawal, counted before, marginal conditions (like my friend's child, who is a bit "odd" and has learning difficulties) are now included. A second reason is that 50 years ago parents would have fought against such a diagnosis, as it often involved institutionalisation and even shame on the parents' part. Now in many countries it attracts special education and even welfare assistance for carers, and it is much more attractive to parents.

Note that I'm not saying that they somehow "aren't really" autistic.

I might add that the same is probably true of chronic conditions like Sorcha's comments on migraines. In the past, you only had migraine (or backpain, or irritable bowel syndrome) if you could afford it. Poorer sufferers would often be considered malingerers. Same caveat as above.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 06:45 AM

I find the diagnosis angle easier to believe, but in a real close second place is Donuel's analysis of weird things introduced into the environment. Maybe these kids are victims of the same kinds of things that cause the six legged frogs we read about from time to time.

                  Another thing I think it is important to point out is, Bee's "funny looking kid" syndrome--or maybe funny acting kid might be more acurate. 30 years ago these kids could go into the work force and make a living as adults. Those opportunities really aren't out there any more. If they have trouble with verbal skills, the jobs that are available to them will not support themselves, let alone a family.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Bee
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:17 AM

Absolutely right on the work force changes, Riginslinger. For some reason I have very clear memories of all the children in my Grade Six class (don't ask me who I went to high school with - haven't a clue). A peculiarity of the Canadian system at the time (1962) was that the 'Baby Bonus', a universal small amount of money per child sent to every Canadian family, was only available until your child hit eighteen if the child stayed in school. So poorer parents would make sure their kids went to school regardless of whether they did well, and the school system would stall kids who weren't making the grade at Grade Six.

There were five boys I remember, from fourteen to sixteen years old, in my class. I would guess at least a couple of them were ADD or mildly autistic or just dyslexic, maybe all of them, as none of them were obviously intellectually handicapped. But at the time, no diagnosis other than 'bad' or 'not too bright' would have been applied to them. At sixteen, they could go to work, and they did, in the woods or on construction sites or in the mines.

As a side note on 'how things change': a couple of those boys would sometimes bring pellet guns or 22s to school so they could hunt rabbits at lunch time, leaving them outside (the guns and the rabbits) the building. Once in a while, if they had a little money, a couple of them would visit the moonshiner up the road, buy a bottle, and drink it at lunch time - they usually didn't make the afternoon classes on those days. No adult appeared to care or even comment on these behaviours.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:32 AM

one new bit of information about autism which is that autistic brains are larger,

I'd question very much whether that is actually the case across the range of autistic people.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:44 AM

Bee - Where in the world did you go to school? Our grade school went through 8 grades, and 8th grade boys would bring lever action rifles to school (30-30's, 25-35's, 35 Remingtons, and etc.) and go deer hunting after school. They were very careful with their guns, nobody ever got hurt or threatened, and I can't recall anybody even being alarmed in any way.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:52 AM

Bee - The boys you describe were probably not autistic although they may have been learning disabled. Autism cuts across socio-economic boundaries. Its unlikely that an autistic child would be able to form even a dysfunctional friendship.

You're right about diagnosis. Autism is now an umbrella diagnosis that covers a wide range of abilities. At the very high end are those kids with Aspberger's syndrome. Next comes high-functioning autism and so on. The diagnosis and treatment and educational methods for autism are quite different than traumatic brain injury, hearing impairment, learning disabilities, ADD or ADHD. None of which are under the umbrella of autism.

My question is, why does Silicon Valley have such a high incidence of Autism and why does the downtown core of Vancouver, B.C. have such a high incidence? Is there a correlation between computer geeks and their autistic off-spring? The patterns are just beginning to emerge.

Donuel - I don't think the brain will yield any answers. I think we have to look at the auditory nerves leading to the brain. The answer is probably rooted in the ability to process language.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:24 AM

"My question is, why does Silicon Valley have such a high incidence of Autism and why does the downtown core of Vancouver, B.C. have such a high incidence?"


                  It could be genetic--boy wouldn't that make a good story line for a science fiction movie. Computer geeks get smarter and smarter with every generation until the get so internally involved they can no longer communicate with anybody.

                  Or, it could be something related to what Donuel was talking about--chemical encroachment into the environment. A place name Silicon Valley really makes you wonder.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 10:44 AM

Geeks who may be somewhere in the spectrum of autism work in less social occupations which lends itself to science and technology.
They might marry other geeks and have more autistic kids.

Even the Simpsons character who plays the scientist is autistic "GLAAVIN" !:^}

The science fiction part might be my idea that PCB is eroding the human genome by effectively putting in random blanks in our genetic code. Then again there may some grain of truth to it. The other factor is that evolving to larger brains has a catch to it. One may be smarter but that is offset by overlapping signal confusion.

Once a kid has too many connections throughour the brain it would show itself in auditory visual movement and all sorts of sensory confusion.

When I observe my son one, aspect of autism is what I call Getting Overwhelmed. There seems to be a magnification of senses that is ecstatic when pleasant but the unpleasant is multiplied into overload mode.

A preventative cure seems far away and gene therapy could be dangerous since you are dealing with a gene and protein that selectively dissolves "uneeded" neurons.

Whew that would be a science fiction tradgedy if the medicne dissolved TOO MUCH.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Bee
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 11:05 AM

Dianavan, I'm quite familiar with the more obvious markers of autism. Not all the boys I described were 'friend makers', though several were. At least one lad would certainly be descibed as mildly autistic today, the others: learning disabilities, hyperactivity, etc.

Riginslinger: rural Cape Breton, but the school was within a small community where deer would be uncommon and it would be dangerous to shoot at large prey. Rabbits, OTOH, were plentiful in the nearby overgrown old fields and scrubby woodland.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 11:17 AM

A preventative cure... could be dangerous since you are dealing with a gene and protein that selectively dissolves "uneeded" neurons.
    ...that would be a science fiction tradgedy if the medicne dissolved TOO MUCH.


                Yes, you could end up with a generation of Republicans!

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:10 PM

"Its unlikely that an autistic child would be able to form even a dysfunctional friendship."

Dianavan - From my own personal experience with my 7 year old son I'd have to dispute that. It's just that we may have to redefine how we describe friendship. There are people that my son looks forward to seeing on a regular basis. He enjoys their company. Does he walk up and say hello? No - he's non-verbal. Does he give out hugs when he greets people - not unless he's asked. But he does snuggle and seek out physical contact once he's in his element. The range of symptoms shown by autistic people is vast. They are extremly difficult to pigeonhole. But that's just one fathers viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:51 PM

Phew, I know Spaw would agree with you on that, Wesley. His Tristan is verbal and demonstrative. He really looks forward to his "friends" who drive the big city trucks and they are quite good with him. He also loves having the neighbour kid over and vice versa.

I watched an interesting movie the other day. It was "Snow Cake" and starred Sigourney Weaver with Alan Rickman. Weaver played a very verbal autistic woman. I *think* she did a good job, but don't have much experience with autistic adults, so I don't know. I'd be interested in what others think of it, those who have more experience. We got the move through netflix.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 12:56 PM

I've seen the preview of that movie so I bought it the other day. I plan to watch it soon. I might even start it today. I'm at home watching my mother in law who had foot surgery and is still unsteady on her feet. I'd rather be watching Sigourney Weaver.....

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:30 PM

There's an analogy between autism and other conditions, such as blindness.

Being blind means you can't see properly. But you might be blind for a whole range of different reasons; and there are degrees of blindness - some people can see the difference between light and dark, for example, and others cannot.

Yes, there are things in common between the life experience of blind people, and the things that can get in the way of that or can help - but talking in terms of a single cause for all blindness doesn't make much sense.

The same is true in relation to the life experience and the requirements of the different people with the label "autistic", and about talking in terms of a common cause for their being the way they are.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 01:42 PM

Well, Wesley, It's Weaver like you've never seen her before.:-) I found the whole film really touching.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Jan 08 - 09:25 PM

Is this a movie like you can find at Blockbuster or somewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:46 PM

I bought mine at Borders but you could get it at Netflix. Blockbuster on line has it too. Check here - Snowcake link

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 04:53 PM

Thanks, Wesley.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 06:45 PM

NPR a couple nights ago had a brief where medical researchers had identified a gene site associated with autism.

The same radio news article cited the supposed link between autism and mercury (as a preservative in vaccines) and contradicted it in large part by the fact that the autism rate has remained high despite the disuse of mercury in vaccines.

I've also heard credible medical experts deny the link between vaccines and autism.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 07:27 PM

Yeah, Donuel brought up the vaccine connection earlier.

Maybe it's genetic, but there seems to be a lot of it around, and I sure don't recall seeing so many cases in the past. There are different theories, many mentioned above.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,guess who again
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 09:53 PM

Here's an interesting theory of autsim:

Neanderthal theory of autism

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Jan 08 - 09:58 PM

Wonderful! That's kind of scary!

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 03:22 AM

Sorry, Wesley, my comment was badly worded.

I have seen autistic kids form attachments and relax in the company of familiars - expecially those who are high functioning. I don't believe that these relationships are the same kind of reciprocal friendships that other children have. The interpersonal communication is very limited and based more on attachment. Like one of my seven year old students said about her autistic sibling, "Sometimes she's not a very good, big sister." Her tone was loving but tinged with disappointment.

My comment was in reply to someone who mentioned boys that hung-out in a group and went hunting together. Although those boys may have had social dysfunctions, it is unlikely that they were autistic.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:02 AM

One of my daughters is Autistic and the other is ADHD

I always think of autistic children as though they can only single task (a bit like men, so women say :-) )

There is little point throwing a long sentence together at a fast speed to an autistic child. Chances are they are still trying to process the 4th word when you have finished your 20th word.

So when giving instructions, it is very important to break the instructions down into simple one step instructions. When the one instruction has been processed and understood, move onto the next one.

My daughter when learning new things, needs visible illustration as well as simple instructions.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Mo the caller
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 05:16 AM

If anyone got beyond the first paragraph of that Neanderthal theory, maybe they could summarise it for Bears of Very Little Brain.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Jan 08 - 08:42 AM

I read a little more than that, but there was a lot of stuff that didn't seem pertinent. The basic idea was, there is a higher rate of autism in Europe than in other places around the globe. The theory seems to be that Neandedrthals interbred with homo-sapiens and developed a gene that causes autism. People around the world, then, have proven to have a greater or lesser degree of incidence of autism depending on how closely they are related to people from western Europe. It's high in North America and Australia, less high in the Union of South Africa, but present, high in Argentina, but lower in Peru, and so on.
                   The article described other kinds of maladies that are found more often in Europeans and less in other people, and proposed the same kind(s) of links.


                   One problem with this theory that I'm aware of is, white supremists have been trying to make this link for years, because they feel like that would give them scientific evidence that they are in fact "different" than other races around the world, but to the best of my knowledge, no link has ever been proven.

Subject: RE: BS: an insight regarding autism
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:34 PM

We've got an autistic son who is now 19 years old.

When he was younger we tried all kinds of things, none of which produced a cure but some of which helped a lot. Auditory integration, an operation for a hernia and cranial osteopathy both helped improve his quailty of life.

One of the things we tried was a change of diet, and we took him to one of the top specialists in the country on allergy/diet related problems. He ran several tests and told us that he had mercury in his system, but he could not explain how it got there, but administered selenium to try to chase it out, but presumably this was after the brain had already been damaged.

This was when he was eight, several years before the evidence before mercury in vaccinations debate appeared. I'm not a scientist like many of the contributors on this thread, and still have an open mind but it does seem to me quite a convincing piece of empirical evidence.