BS: Affirmative Action?

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Azizi
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 04:30 AM

The subject of racism HAS come up a lot lately month here at Mudcat...Why???

Who knows..Maybe it's some cluster effect that has happened before with other subjects. Anyway, I suppose a cluster of subjects has probably happened here before. This is my 7th month on Mudcat so I can't point to any examples, but I would imagine some long time members could.

And I'm not even going to mention the names of those thread on race and racism that have happened so close together within actually what seems like the last two weeks..One of which is still going strong..

Not to mention that in the last month or so there has also been politics, Blues, and Bob Marley threads that refer {referred} to race if not racism. [There was a vicious troll on a Bob Marley on the radio thread that Brucie conquered so admirably-Thanks again, Brucie!]

And Dianavan, I so very much appeciated your posts on that infamous thread about that woman whose name I will not even mention. I thank you!

Of course, just because those threads are there doesn't mean that I have to participate in the discussions-except for threads like
"What books should I read next?' & and 'Feelin the Blues' threads which I started..Both of which mention African Americans..

But I could have 'played pass' those other threads- Free will and all that...I chose to comment.

And you're right, Dianavan-I AM interested in other topics. It was actually children's rhymes that brought me to this folk community, but my special area of interest is African American rhymes..Hmmn-that subject deals with race...

I'd prefer to discuss that or other things such as secular slave songs and culture -OOPS! You have to talk about race with that subject, too..

Well, I'd readily post on a thread that discussed astrology, or reincarnation, or psychic phenomenon, or dream interpretation, or science fiction books, or the history and cultural meanings of social dances in North America, South America, and the Caribbean- OOPS! that last subject would involve race and probably racism too...

I'm also interested in the subject of adoption. At one time I worked in that field and, among other things, I facilitated workshops that provided opportunities for transracial adoptive parents to discuss the impact of race & racism on parenting non-White children.. OOPS! there's those two 'R' words again...

Okay-I'd love it if there was a Mudcat thread on the subject of etymology, particularly slang, or the origins & meanings of names, or sound preferences among African Americans -OOPS! I'm back to issues of race..

Well I did post to the spatula thread..there was no mention of race there..

Did I mention spatulas? Is that craze still going on??!

Inquiring minds want to know..

Even if I don't post to BS threads like that they provide a break from serious heavy duty matters..the pause that refreshes so energy is renewed to do what ya gotta do or want to do on a more serious tip...

So thanks to all those witty, creative, [wacked out??!] 'Catters who keep making up those type of BS threads!

You create them-I'll at least lurk.


Peace!

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 04:51 AM

Surely Affirmative Action comes into the category of the Plain Bloody Obvious. Sure it can mean the (temporary) abandonments of some quite serious principles, but so do lots of things in life. For those people who have more than one principle(as somebody said some time or other), there will come a time when they have to discard one.
    If you live in a society so stuck with a disgraceful past that you find yourself living in a disgraceful present, do something about it. Dont find excuses to leave it be and hope that time will cure all: it won't, on its own.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:07 AM

I'd agree that institutional racism is far more damaging than individual. I've been on the down side of 'positive discrimination'. A job was advertised internally in my local council, for whom I was working. I was not allowed to apply until certain grades had had their chance. No-one suitable was found during that stage, so it was re-advertised to the lower grades and I applied. I passed the written assessment with pretty high marks. I was appointed an interview, but the day before it, I was told the post had been filled. A colleague who had failed the written assessment got the job by pulling the 'you're failing me because I'm Asiain' card. No apology, no alternative post, no explanation was ever given to myself or the others who applied. The colleague was removed from the position after 6 months probation because she could not manage the work and it was filled without advertisement.

In this case, I suffered, the colleague suffered, the department suffered, the public suffered and the council suffered (blow to confidence, managerial pressures, failure to serve, closure of service, huge budget deficiencies and bad press due to removal of services). Not one person came out of that experience without at least one scar.

Giving someone a job on the basis of their ethnic background or sexual preference, rather than their ability to do the job well, will mostly end in disaster, either for the employer or the employee.

I have to say that my present employer manages these things much better. There is still the vestige of an 'old boy' network, but assessments and interviews are done on a much more even system. There are women in high positions, there are black women in high positions, there are white men doing the lower grade, manual work that is 'traditionally' that of 'ethnic minority workers'.

All people should be equally treated.

Don - I've had the same problem. My mother is in a wheelchair and when I took her shopping, the assistant always asked me if I needed help, but never her. She's never been the sharpest tool in the box but she's certainly not stupid and can speak for herself. I would take her to the checkout and then leave her there for the assistant to deal with. It's called the 'Does he take sugar' syndrome, one that I've always tried very hard to avoid. On one particular day I'd had enough of it and when asked the inevitable 'can I help her with anything' I replied 'I don't know, can she?' addressed to the assistant behind the one who had spoken.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:40 AM

Greg F,

While I usually find myself agreeing with you It think it is easier to bring knowledge to a man that to take the hate out of his heart. That's what I meant by the good news/bad news.

I think that most people are good people and if they just have the feacts can figure out right from wrong, But the problem as I see it, is that the badest of the bad people have usurped the power in thisa country and use disinformation as one of their tools to keep the good people divided and bickering while these bad people make off with the gold...

Affirmative Action is a good example. The Bad people ahve reduced a complicated program down to bumper sticker lenght arguemnts with one side saying "Level the Playing Field" and the other saying "It's Reverse Discrimination"... Too bad that the vast area in between doesn't get talked about but it would seem that the Boss Hog and the Bad People have manipulated our society in a manner where most folks are just too busy trying not to slip down the socio-economic ladder to have much time to actually spend much time holding these progtams up to the light...

One thing is for certain is that Boss Hog has in the last four years centralized power and that does not bode well for either serious discussion of Affirmarive Action or it's chances to survive...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:47 AM

Thanks for the long response, artbrooks.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:55 AM

It doesn't seem as clear cut an issue to me. I think that the more contemporary view of it - that of being tempered with an understanding, as described by artbrooks (above), of access, not favoritism or "handicapping" the system (giving points to those who don't earn them in order to "level the playing field") has been helpful -- and more morally acceptable. But discussions like this one show that it's still not very clear cut as an issue.

Last fall I was watching an episode of "The History Detectives" on PBS. They were doing a segment on trying to uncover the provenance of a golf club that had been in a fellow's family for about 100 years. In the segment they talked, quite matter-of-factly about the country club this fellow's ancestor had belonged to at the time he participated in the US Open. It was a black family.

I saw an informal, "get-to-know" type of interview with a very well-known political figure (if I said who it was the discussion would be side-tracked over personality when that isn't the point). The interviewer was either B. Walters or D. Sawyer (can't remember). This black politician was showing the interviewer the family photo album in which were pictures of her college-educated grandparents.

In many northern States blacks were very vocally against affirmative action. Seems that, from their perspective, they were advancing fine without the "helping hand" even in the midst of unarguable racism.

Other races succeed quite well in the US without a Affirmative Action -- in fact, are facing the reverse, as those of Asian descent are seeing relative to University acceptance in some States. Asians are at least equally different from caucasian as are blacks, and they, as immigrants, enter the country in profound poverty themselves. So, if Affirmative Action is not meant to be restitution for past wrong, how is it justifiable in light of how few other races have ever needed it to succeed in our society?

It seems that the preponderance of people who favor Affirmative Action have an "institutional" rather than pragmatic or market view of the rationale behind employment.

Interesting on-going discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:24 AM

It think it is easier to bring knowledge to a man that to take the hate out of his heart.

I sincerely wish I could agree with you, Bobert, and I do wish you success in educating the NASCARites. You've taken on some heavy lifting there, and I haven't seen much progress in that area in the last 30 years or so.

At least the person with hate in her/his heart will eventually die. Ignorance will be with us forever.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: semi-submersible
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:55 AM

Reinforcement (awards and other incentives) do lead some organisations to look at their structure to see if they measure up to standards such as diversity and equal opportunity. That, and spreading word of opportunities among target communities, are probably the best affirmative actions. Lots of people just don't notice their blinders, and would gladly correct their errors. Then programs need to provide guidelines to avoid the well-intentioned "reverse discrimination" overreaction.

Enforcement should be used with much more caution. LtS's example of mismanagement is precisely what gives affirmative action the bad name expressed in Hubby's #2: special treatment to minorities. Quotas are infamous for this kind of failure. Emphatic agreement to all expressions of the need for AA to be strictly a temporary measure to combat institutionalised restrictions not based on competence.

How about some pointers on the problem of identification of issues? We have discussed some obvious candidates, but discrimination against men (as in a Canadian government agency's official definition of domestic violence as violence against women and children) is just as prejudiced. Saying "now it's your turn" doesn't make it right. We all lose when Powers That Be decide that we need either a Minority Person or an Old Boy, or that male counsellors should be barred from offering their services to a shelter for battered women, however qualified.

Surely there must be models for building just and healthy organisations with effective communication and open decision processes?

Maureen

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 10:08 AM

There was 'forced integration' of blood in the military during WW II.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: GUEST,Uncle DaveO
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:13 AM

Don Firth, in an informative and thoughtful post, said:

But to fill in the picture, I know a few developmentally delay people (used to be referred to as "retarded") who, if given a job within their capabilities, make diligent, hard-working employees.

A couple of comments here:

"Developmentally delay[ed]" implies that the path of "development" will be the same as in a "normal" individual, except on a slower timetable. I'm not in a position to say that none of the retarded (and that word is really subject to the same objection, I think) will, given enough time, arrive at the same development as "normal" people, but in general it's a false assumption.

Indeed, it is not uncommon for a Down's Syndrome person, say, to take a long time to get to his/her peak, and then tail off substantially from there over time. I'm acutely aware of this because my son Hans, now 30, is far less vocal, far less insightful than he was when he left (supposedly, was graduated from) highschool nine years ago. In speaking with parents of other Down's Syndrome persons, this observation has been frequently corroborated.

Now, as to employment, I will say that Hans works in the laundry of a local nursing home (and has for ten years), and is a valued employee. He's always there, he's always pleasant to everyone, he keeps working and doesn't goof off, does a good job at the admittedly simple function to which he's assigned. He gets good job evaluations on everything except speed of work--but they knew that and were prepared to accept it when they hired him.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: susu
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 03:18 PM

To the "guest" who posted this idiotic statement….
"The difference between this program and Affirmative Action is that little phrase; "Paid Their Dues" Jeep"

ever hear about slavery, jeep?"

I have this to say, Affirmative Action is NOT restitution for slavery. The descendants of slaves are not suffering from the ramifications of slavery. In fact, those who are descendants are fortunate that they are here and not in Africa starving to death. Also, there are a lot of people who are covered by the Affirmative Action that are not descendants of slaves. Women, Hispanics, Asians, and even the handicapped. And NOT ALL black people are here as a result of slavery; some have just recently come over to this country. And not all slaves were mistreated. Get a clue!

Also, I was passed over on a promotion that I was more than qualified for, for to a minority to be promoted who was NOT qualified. I was constantly being asked to help him to with his duties yet I received no compensation while he got a fat raise. This was not fair, so I eventually quit. He later got fired because he never measured up to the task. He found it hard to find a job because he then received negative references from the company stating he was sub-standard. When he did finally find a new job it paid way less than the position he was promoted from, so for him, IMHO, I would have to guess that Affirmative Action hurt him. Best to all. Susu

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 04:22 PM

speaking of idiotic statements...

the reference to slavery related to jeep's statement about "paid their dues".

"In fact, those who are descendants are fortunate that they are here and not in Africa
starving to death."
let me guess...you are not a descendant of slaves, but you feel quite comfortable deciding how lucky they are to have been a part of that process so they could be here now rather than in africa...my, the arrogance.

"And not all slaves were mistreated."
i would say the fact of being a slave constitutes mistreatment...now we have arrogance squared.

as for your personal AA story...are you sure you weren't passed over for the job was because of your arrogance and inability to relate to people that don't share your prejudice? just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 04:50 PM

For the hundredth time, I watch NASCAR, and I'm not a freakin redneck. (If I remember correctly, Spaw is also a racing fan.) There's only been two or three races this season and frankly I can't tell you who's ahead in the points. Assuming that people who like car racing are ignorant is ignorant in itself.

ArtBrooks, maybe that is how the government sees it, but not all Latinos speak Spanish; although it could be argued that Portuguese and Catalan are Spanish derivatives. Is it really fair for them to define a minority population group simply on the basis of language?

Azizi, those people you worked with were idiots.

I asked a black friend once how she felt about all this AA stuff. She told me pointblank that she would be pissed off if she knew she had gotten a job just because she was black.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 05:16 PM

Kim C: language has nothing at all to do with it. "Hispanic," as defined by the Feds, means a person with ancestors originating in Spain or one of the Spanish-speaking nations of the Americas. A Hispanic can self-certify as such, even if he or she doesn't speak a word of Spanish.

My understanding of this, and I may well be wrong, is that a small group of mid-level Federal employees came up with this definition sometime in the late 60s or early 70s. My assumption is that none of them were of Portuguese descent. Catalans are Hispanics. In fact, to take it to its extreme, a Basque is Hispanic. On the other hand, a person from Nicaragua whose ancestry is 100% Indian is Hispanic. I'm not entirely sure how a Sephardic Jew, whose ancestors were kicked out of Spain in 1492, would be counted. Is any of this fair? Does it make any logical sense? No, but this is how it works.

Susu: your experience had nothing to do with AA. That is what's generally referred to as "preferential placement," and is somewhere between improper and illegal, depending upon the circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 05:50 PM

KimC,

Now, now, now... Calm down... When ol' Bobert get's into his NASCAR thing it ain't directed at every danged person who enjoys racing. Heck, I hate to admit it but I owned and raced a mini-stocker up until my son was born in '85 (10 laps every Friday night at Southside Speedway in Richmond... Yeah, underneath it all there's a little motorhead in me... I still got piccures of me drag racing in my teens and won about a dozen trophies back in 1965 with my drag car...

But there are an awfullo lot of folks out there these days who are just way too much eat up. I got a neigbor that has more "88's" on the back of his pick-up than any person with any level of pride would have... I think he has 20 or so.. That's eat up... His entire life revolves around the 88 Car...

Nevermnind,

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: susu
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:46 PM

Guest, I am not prejudice. You do not know me so please do not try to tell me what I am and what I am not. In fact, I have distanced myself from several family members who are blind to the fact that blacks are not inferior. I have friends of all races and creeds, and their color nor beliefs are an issue, but whether or not they are good people. The guy I was referring to was a friend of mine actually, and we both knew why he got the job. Like I said before, it ended up hurting him in the long run.

May I also say that to become a member on mudcat is free, so why are you hiding as a guest? Just a thought. Susu

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Jeep man
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 10:41 PM

As for "Heard About Slavery?". Of course, sad comment on mans inhumanity to man. We have progressed.

However, if you find someone,bound into slavery in the U.S.A., I will do my utmost at my own expense (No Goverment Money) to to return him to the lifestyle he had before slavery. I will supply money for the
education he might have had before slavery. I will even supply living expenses for a period of time to be decided on circumstances.

All of this will be his to do as he pleases. If he squanders his opportunities; Tough! He had his chance. Jeep

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: LuteMonkey
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:43 PM

I am fully aware that the US isn't only to blame for slavery. But it happened. AA exist becuase it is the exact opposite of what had happened prior. If you don't like it now, you need to be patient. It will go away. After a few generations, at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: goodbar
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 12:21 AM

it's racist and is the same thing that made people so xenophobic back in the old days.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 10:43 AM

Somehow I had the understanding that "Hispanic" referred to people from a Spanish-speaking country, and that Latin people from non-Spanish speaking countries (like Portugal or Brazil) were "Latino." That may have to do with what people prefer to call themselves, rather than what the Feds want to call them.

Subject: RE: BS: Affirmative Action?
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 11:29 AM

Kim C: Not exactly, and one of the problems is that people have difficulty agreeing upon terms. Here is what is probably the most widely accepted definition of the term Latino. It refers to people from Latin America, and excludes Spaniards and Portuguese. Where I live, in Albuquerque, they just went through a rather acrimonious process of renaming what used to be called the "Chicano/Chicana Studies Program" at the University of New Mexico...Chicano generally means people of Mexican descent and, in some minds, is derogatory. After they finished arguing about it, they realized that the new definition still excluded Brazilians.   I'm not sure that there actually is a single word that is inclusive of all of the inhabitants of the Iberian penninsula and their descendants in the Americas.