Bob Dylan Masters of war.

Subject: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 04:32 PM

I have recently been given a request to play Master of War.
I sing Napolionic War songs and anti war songs so I took up the request and played it fore the 1st time last Monday gone and made a right pigs ear off it.

None the more fore that?
But I am researching the song and I have seen a brilliant version of the above title on Utube with Tom Petty and its fantastic.
What do fellow Dylan fans think of this version
Title on utube
Bob Dylan Masters of War with Tom Petty
Beats the Free wheeling version much more of a beat and Dylan at his best?
Kindest regards to all Pierre.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 05:11 PM

Personally I would say if you're going to sing a protest song then it probably makes sense for the audience to be able to hear the words. From the two versions I heard they could be the words to Eidelweiss

I'm sure your version will be superior when it comes and better even than the Pigs Ear version

Written as a BIG Dylan fan

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 05:25 PM

Now this I like

Neville Brothers - God on our side

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 06:45 PM

Listened for about 60 seconds. Did not recognize the song as anything I've ever heard. Wasted about sixty seconds on that video.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 09:26 PM

The Dylan/Petty version in the clip absolutely sucks!!! "Masters of War" ain't this upbeat song... It's a very serious song about some very serious shit... Ther's only one way to do it and that is the way that Dylan did it originally...

BTW, this is one hard song to squeeze into a set without ruining yer set... And the worst part about it is the better you do the song the more it brings yer set down... I mean, if yer audience consists of alot of folks who wnat serious downbeat dirges then let 'er rip... I save songs like this for the right situation which doesn't presnt itself too often... Gotta be respectfull and carefull about these kinds of songs if yer on stage...

b~

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 09:31 PM

I've always preferred Bob's original version.

De gustibus....

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Beer
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 10:13 PM

Terrible version. Watched less than 30 seconds. Dylan's original is the one. God on Our Side is A Great Song "period"
ad.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 10:27 PM

Just another thought... If war is so friggin' happy and upbeat why not sell War-Cola??? Or have "War Sales" at the local department stores???

Think about it...

Be like takin' the old Beatles song "I Want to Hold Your Hand" and trying to make it into a boohoo downbeat dirge'r... Some stuff just ain't right...

Dylan??? I donno what got into him that night... I mean, I been in enough jams where ya' just get caught up in someone else's rhythum/groove... We all been there... Maybe that was the case... But then again??? It is Dylan... He ain't all that consistent in his groove...He does seem to roam around musically which is fine with me... I just hold the option of havin' the clicker when it comes to his stuff... He's either in a groove I am real comfy with 'er very much not...

B~

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:01 PM

Speaking of The Beatles, you know the song You Won't See Me, from the album, Rubber Soul? That always struck me as an oddly upbeat setting of some very downbeat lyrics. Though the days are few/They're filled with tears/Since I lost you/It feels like years/Yes it seems so long/Girl since you've been gone/And I just can't go on/If you won't see me. This guy is almost suicidal, yet he's singing this bouncy little number.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Aug 10 - 11:11 PM

Yeah, G... Lotta that in music... Very curious but it seems that some folks don't get the essence of the story and are like, ahhhh, just thinking *not of the essence* but the *musicaltiy* of the voice???

Ain't me... I do a song and I want the story to get, at the least, equal time...

BTW, I agree on the Rubber Soul lp...

B~

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:09 AM

Pete - sorry mate but it's awful - just millionaires on stage fucking about!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:20 AM

Agree with Woodsie, Pierre....that's an awful version. As Bobert says above, you can't (or at any rate shouldn't) "rock up" a song like that one.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: pavane
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:28 AM

I prefer the original (Nottamun town) which Dylan took as the tune for Masters of War - but it isn't a war song.

If you want Napoleonic songs - listen to Nic Jones' "Warlike lads of Russia" for one which hasn't been overdone. How Napoleon fled from
Moscow (Words form an old broadside)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: pavane
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:32 AM

Warlike Lads of Russia words

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:21 AM

"Well that went down with you lot
like a concreate Kite didnt it?

I would not sing it like that myself.
But I do like the version.(my choice)
Thanks for your reponses and for the above links

I play John Brown in a similar fashion Re fast Rythum
Regards to all Pierre.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:32 AM

Well, I thought it was a great version! Bob has been changing live versions of his songs like this for years. It's what he does....

Thanks for the link, Pierre.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:43 AM

Yeah Pete at the end of the day you like what you like and that's good. If we all liked exactly the same stuff what a boring world it would be. Nottamun Town is a good song, I'm not sure if it (the tune that is) predates Masters Of War (1963), it probably does. I have versions by Davey Graham and Fairport, 1965 & 1968 respectively.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: pavane
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:54 AM

I think it was collected long before that

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 09:59 AM

What I.... like about Bob Dylan is that he is very Deep Man.
He is always thinking and does not tell no one his thoughts
he just go ahead and does it,
If you like it "Good"
If you dont .Huh
He shocks his fans
has the very link above with petty proves ?

Pierre.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 10:13 AM

I value Woodsie comments
"but in regards to "Two millionaires fucking about on stage?

Well Bob and Tom did not Become Millionaires Darning socks did they?
I think they are excellent together and inspire each other.

The only thing I do not like about Masters of War is the last verse and when I learn Masters of War and Play it I wont sing the last verse and if folk do not like it Huh
Regards Pierre.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 10:35 AM

I like it when live versions of songs are different to the standard recordings, and enjoyed some of the interpretations Dylan did on the one decent performance he turned in of the 3 gigs I've seen him at.

But my feeling is that MOW is a song that really doesn't lend itself to being rocked up. The version you linked had pretty unintelligible words and take away the sense of the words and you have "just another" rock song that could be about anything or nothing. But if you like it...well, "chacun a son gout" (and if I drink much more of that Courage beer, gout'll be a definite possibility).

Dylan's never *shocked* me, but twice he's *disappointed* me with really bad performances where he could hardly be bothered to go through the motions, showing such a contempt for the people who *made* him a millionaire that I've never bothered to go to one of his live gigs since....the last one being just up the road at the Hop Farm. Five minutes drive for me (well, my mate, until this cast's off) but I just couldn't be arsed :-)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:09 AM

Now and then Bob does a really lousy show. Other times he does a great show. It must depend on his mood, I suppose...or his energy level.

I think the best performance on record of "Masters of War" is a solo acoustic version by Bob recorded live in the early sixties. It's on one of the "Bootleg Series" albums. My feeling is that the song benefits from being done in the simplest manner possible, because the words need to be clearly heard.

As for Bob Dylan and Tom Petty...yeah...they did not become millionaires by sitting on their asses. They worked hard for it.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM

What a lot of folk do not consider about Bob Dylan
I think..is   
"He is probobly" The best Poet in the last 100 years"

A simply example is Bob Dylans Dream?
A classic example is Masters of War.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:59 AM

I must re write the above posting.

What a lot of folk do not consider abOut Bob Dylan
I think is
He is probobly "The best poet in the last 100 years?

A simple example is I shall be free.
A classic example is MASTERS OF WAR.

Got the wrong song there.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:28 PM

another simple example maybe = to Masters of war is
talking world war III.
Dylan shows just how deep he can be with Masters of War
but a more whcky somewhat iditic tripy viw to world war three in the latter.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: pavane
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:32 AM

Pierre, Bob Dylan's Dream was a rewrite of Lord Franklin (probably learned from Martin Carthy while he was in England).

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 05:53 AM

Bob admits to that on the sleeve notes to ' Freewheelin '

Dave H

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:32 AM

If you miss out the last verse then you miss the whole point of the song!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:36 AM

I've maintained a good relationshup with Bob over the years, and the recipe is as follows: he doesn't tell me how to sing my songs, and I don't tell him how to sing his.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 06:50 AM

Pierre, if you want a good Napoleonic song - well, actually more of a poem than a song, try Mike Harding's "Napoleon's Retreat From Wigan", which has the immortal lines:

"And when they got to't gates o' Wigan,
There were a bloody great doormat wit' words,
'Bog off, Froggies!'"

:-)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 10:34 AM

Thanks Will I,ll try that.
Greg Stevens I agree whole hearted.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 11:58 AM

It's quite true that the tune of Bob Dylan's Dream is based on the tune of Lord Franklin. And so what if it is? The main thing that is striking about the song Bob Dylan's Dream is the lyrics which are superb and insightful, and they bear little if any resemblance to the lyrics in Lord Franklin.

Why shouldn't someone use the tune of some old trad song, alter it a bit, and write new lyrics to it? Hell, people have been doing that for the last few thousand years. Example: The music of "The Star Spangled Banner", America's national anthem, is a recycycled tune from a popular English drinking song of the 1700s. Francis Scott Keys simply wrote new words to an old tune. ;-) Nobody seems to have a problem with that.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:06 PM

First stanza of Lady Franklin's Lament:

We were homeward bound one night on the deep
Swinging in my hammock I fell asleep
I dreamed a dream and I thought it true
Concerning Franklin and his gallant crew

First stanza of Bob Dylan's Dream:

While riding on a train goin' west
I fell asleep for to take my rest
I dreamed a dream that made me sad
Concerning myself and the first few friends I had

More than a passing resemblance, I'd say. NTTAWWT.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 07:24 PM

Uh-huh. And what about the entire rest of the song? And what is wrong with using an old trad song as the basis for starting off a whole new idea with new lyrics? People have been doing it ever since trad songs and traditional melodies existed. The only guy I ever hear criticized for doing it is Bob Dylan. He's well-known enough to make a good target.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:22 PM

Hey, Dylan's songs are steeped in the rich history of the blues... The blues is all about borrowing... I mean, lotta stuff out therer is fir the takin'... It ain't stealin'... It's just part of the game... Who cares??? I mean, really... It's not that Dylan wrote the entire song with borrowed stuff... Just inspired by soemthin' he'd read... Like that's all of us... That's where songs come from... I think that if we take Dylan's body of work and put it up against just about any poet past or present that it holds up well...

Jus MO, of course...

B~

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 08:50 PM

BTW, a little braggin' on my son... He has, ahhhh, a mind very much unlike mine... He first heard Jamie Brockett's "Legend of the Titanic" when he was about 9 years old and it took him about two weeks before he could recite it... Then he heard "Bob Dylan's Dream" and mastered it a couple of days??? Wish I had his memory...

Might of fact, afew years back he was visiting me in Page County and I was scheduled to perform at the County Farm Market and he'd been in the county for his first time in his life fir about 3 days and he wrote a 5 minute rap song about his observations called "We're not that much different", even though he is very much different with is Portland, Oregon look and got up on satge and did it from memory???

How do people do that???

Nevrmind...

B~

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM

It's easier to do it when you're young. Focus is keener, desire stronger, and the mind isn't so cluttered with a lifetime of trivial (and not so trivial) information yet.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 03:18 AM

Inspiration and ideas come from what you hear and what you are brought up with. That's how chinese music sounds like chinese music, african music sounds like african music and indian music sounds like indian music.

If you write a song with lines, rhymes, a chorus and verses you are using someone else's format.

Everybody takes something they have heard and develops it for their own purpose. When did you last hear music that owed nothing to anything done before?

Bob Dylan has put an enormous amount of material into the public arena and because Dylan's music sounds most of all like Dylan's music I reckon he is influenced less by outsiders than most.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 04:04 AM

LH: It's easier to do it when you're young. Focus is keener, desire stronger, and the mind isn't so cluttered with a lifetime of trivial (and not so trivial) information yet.

All true...and also, it's easier to remember the words of something you've written yourself. 34 years ago I wrote a long poem about an experimental survey-navigation system that I was using. I probably don't even think of it more than once every couple of years, but I can still recite it word perfect from memory.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:48 AM

Little Hawk, perhaps you missed the NTTAWWT.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:54 AM

Gerry,

Perhaps you should stop being such a prat and expecting people to understand what NTTAWWT means.

The word 'arsehole' comes to mind...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 08:55 AM

Maybe in yer case, Rob, but I have more trouble remembering my own songs than other folks songs... I think it has to do with not having them all recorded, or recorded on my ol' Teak sync-sound reel to reel and don't listen to them enough...

But, yeah, I'll admit to have a somewhat cluttered mind... No, make that a very clutttered mind...

B~

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 07:00 PM

O rude guest, hiding in anonymity, Google is your friend.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 10 - 10:11 PM

It's not that I missed it, Gerry. I just didn't have any idea what it meant, so I didn't comment on it. ;-) And I didn't bother looking it up either, obviously.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 01:45 PM

Okay, I looked it up on Google. It means "not that there's anything wrong with that".

Lovely. ;-) You are forgiven, Gerry.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 14 Aug 10 - 05:52 PM

"So many Guests on a Dylan Thread"
"I,ve started summit now"
But its interesting
kind regards Pierre

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Taconicus
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 11:03 AM

Yes, many Dylan songs were takeoffs or re-writings of earlier songs, and many of his tunes were reworkings or adaptations (and often improvements) of earlier folk music melodies. And in doing so he was carrying on a long and venerable folk music tradition of doing just that.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 01:09 PM

Yeah, the old tapes of Dylan when he first came upon the scene are something real special... The influences were so vast... I mean, one has to appreciate just how much stuff he'd read and heard to put together the songs and his sound... It is apparent that he was listeing to not only Woody but also some southern bluesmen, as well...

B~

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Taconicus
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 10:52 PM

He studied (and borrowed from) British (English and Celtic) folk music quite a bit.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan Masters of war.
From: Beer
Date: 16 Aug 10 - 12:23 AM

Let us get this thread in prospective. I'm form the age when Dylan first came on the scene. Were you who are now so informed? I was here when he went from folk to electric. Were you? If you are of my era and are still trying to figure him out then great, but if your form a generation that didn't live thought the times of our era., than you will never never understand what we were so fortunate to have experiences first hand, be it copied, fraudulent or what ever you fucking asshole have negative to say about him. He was a changing experience for all of us rebels and peace lovers. You weren't there in the time of the cold war and the Cuban crises. Were you a teenager when the Viet Nam war was taking place. If not than, than shut the fuck up because you didn't go to bed wondering if you were going to be called up to serve or if the Russians were going o nuke us. The media was not at our finger tips as it is now. Sermons on Sunday gave us the news. Lyndon Jhonson(sp.wrong I don't care)gave us news as well. Much of which was lies.
Dylan can't sing worth shit and i have to go along with this. His first couple of a/p's were great then his voice started to go down hill. However, he is one of the greatest movers in world affairs that we folk lovers appreciate. For he was and still is a spokesmen.

I don't know where you were when you first heard "The Times Are A Changing" and maybe you don't even know the song. But I remember, and like Kennedy's Assassination I will never forget. Do you even know the song? Look it up, it still applies.

So did Dylan steal form this person of that person and change the words a little or the melody? I don't give a rats ass. Dylan moved the world and that is it.
AD.