Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'

Subject: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Leeder
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 01:29 PM

Anybody know about antique firearms?

I recently resurrected "Whiskey in the Jar", as I'm playing in places where people request that sort of thing (and a good banjo tune it is as well). The version I learned many years ago, before it was popularized, has the lines:

I flew for my pistols, but alas, I was mistaken,
For Jenny'd drawn my charges, and a prisoner I was taken.

The version that seems most popular nowadays has:

But Jenny'd drawn my charges, and she filled them up with water...

And, later,

But I couldn't shoot the water, so a prisoner I was taken.

What's with the water? Surely drawing the charges would be enough to render the pistols useless. Why would Jenny go to the unneccessary, likely finicky action of adding the water, possibly risking waking up the guy? It adds an unnecessary verse to the song, and doesn't make any sense. Or can someone who knows about old weaponry set me straight?

While we're on the subject of "Whiskey in the Jar", I was told that someone who sang the song in Kentucky got an unexpected reaction from the line "Some takes delight in the hurling and the bowling". It seems that "hurling" has a sexual connotation in that area. Can anyone confirm this?

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 01:49 PM

I suppose filling the pistols with water would make it more difficult to re-charge the pistols but it does seem excessive. Maybe Jenny demanded another verse.

I always thought "hurling" had to do with the process of vomiting. Frank Warner sings the line as "Some takes delight in fishing and the bowling" and Molly cuts out Jenny, who "fired off my pistols, and she loaded them with pepper." Well, that gets you out of the water!

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 01:58 PM


Assuming that the era of the song is from blackpowder days, the powder consisted mainly of a nitrate and some "filler." The filler was usually a mix of sulphur and sugar - at least in the "home-brew" powder days.

Nitrates are very much soluble in water, so even slight amounts of water render the powder inert (but maybe tasty?).

As I recall, the third or fourth of the "General Rules of Action" for Rogers Rangers - well known in US scouting groups - is "Always keep your powder dry."

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Gary T
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 01:58 PM

I learned it as "Jenny took me charges..."

I understand it to mean she took said charges and wet them, then replaced them. Presumably, he would have noticed right away if they were missing, but didn't notice they were wet until it was too late.

I don't know anything about Kentucky hurling, but it sounds interesting! (BG)

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 02:02 PM

Hurling is a game, I believe, much like field hockey, only with attitude. Actually similar in some ways to laccross.

I'd be pretty much unconcerned about the water in the gun issue, suffice to say the woman arranged for the capture of our hero.

Depending on the version was it Colonel Pepper, Captain Farrell, or Willie Farrell?

Most people newly introduced to the song are done so by a version from Metalica. That means confused lyrics and no melody. But a resistable beat ;-/

Don

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 02:12 PM


I'd have to read the "Jenny took me charges" as "she took their usefulness away." Maybe a stretch, but anything else would offend the sensibilities of people of the era.

It is extremely difficult to remove the charge from most blackpowder firearms, except by discharging them. The "ball" is pressed, usually with considerable force, through the barrel and on top of the powder, or charge.

If possible, the simple method of removal is to fire the weapon. Otherwise, you need a long wire with a sharp screw thread on the end, to screw into the ball, and then a strong arm to pull it out. They come out harder than they go in.

Pouring a little water down the bore will sometimes do, but the ball may be tight enough to keep it from reaching the powder. A few of drops of water on the "flash hole" or in the primer pan would quite reliably "disarm" our victim.

Note that these methods are not reliable in modern blackpowder groups, since a substance called Pyrodex has come on the scene. It burns like black powder, measures like black powder, and smokes and stinks like black powder, but is relatively immune to moisture.

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Charcloth
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 02:26 PM

The old cap & ball & the old flintlock fire arms used what we call today "black powder" Once it is wet it is totaly useless. Remember the movie "The Last of the Mohicans" their powder got wet after going into the cave behind the waterfall so the 3 of them left knowing they couldn't put up a fight. As I understand the US Navy still uses black powder for their big naval cannons. It has something to do with the pressure being lower than todays "Smokeless" Powder. JohninKansass is right about the old saying "Keep your powder dry". Hope this helps. I will have to ask me mother (she's a "briar")about the Ky. Hurling, that's a new one on me. Charcloth

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Amos
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 02:36 PM

I believe Frank Warner's version leaves Molly's water out of it, and says "I flew for me pistols, but alas I was mistaken, for I fired off my pistols and a prisoner I was taken..." which makes sense if you are woken up with guards around you "in numbers odd and even...".

His "delights" omit hurling, as mentioned -- they are fishing, bowling, and the carriages a-rolling.

Of course this is from memory, not authoritative.

A.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 02:39 PM


And now that you guys have made me think about it.

A blackpowder flintlock would be loaded by pouring the powder "charge" down the barrel, but this portion of the powder might commonly be called the "load." A ball, usually with a cloth "patch" would then be rammed down on top of the "load."

In a long gun, like a rifle or musket, that is how the gun would be carried. Immediately before firing, a smaller amount of powder - sometimes the same as the load, and sometimes a special "finer" powder, would be poured into the flash pan - "charging" the gun. The flint makes a spark to ignite the "charge" in the flash pan, which transmits a flame through the flash hole to ignite the "load."

Since pistols were intended to be "at the ready," the flash pan usually had a tighter cover that would be pushed aside by the flint. It was thus possible to "charge" them in advance.

The amount of powder used in the flash pan is very small, and would not be missed by "feel" if simply poured out, but a careful bandit might actually look, so a small spit in the pan might be more likely to fool him. At any rate, the "charges" refered to are most likely only the small bit of powder in the flash pan - and he's done in by a triviality.

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Leeder
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 02:56 PM

DonM., I believe the first version I learned had "Colonel Pepper", but now I sing "Captain Farrell", just because it sings better, I find. I've never hear "Willie Farrell".

Also, some versions have "Molly" rather than "Sportin' Jenny". The latter rhymes with some other stuff, so I use it in my version.

Some versions have "the football and the bowling". I understand that in Northern Ireland hurling (or "hurley") is the Catholic sport, football (soccer, not rugby, Canadian or American football) is the Protestant sport. (This was in an article explaining why the Belfast hockey team in the U.K. league is well supported -- it's a non-sectarian sport.) So I'm speculating that the versions with "football" are Northern Protestant.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Gary T
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 03:06 PM

Makes sense to me, John--she would only need to wet the charge(s)--would they also be called primers?

My picture of "took/drew/had drawn" is that she physically took the gun or store of charging powder into the next room to do her thing. She would then have obviously returned it whence it came. In another version I've heard, she takes his pistol(s) away, leaving only his rapier available. Either way, as Don Meixner noted, the effect is the same.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 04:18 PM

In the earliest known version, "Patrick Flemming", the line just reads - "Then she loaded my arms with water".

This was probably written within a few days of the execution of Flemming on Apr. 24, 1650, but the earliest extant copy of the ballad is about a century and a half later, give or take about a quarter of a century.

See the ballad (Patrick Flemming) in the Scarce Songs 2 file at www.erols.com/olsonw

There is also a click-on there to a short history of the very real Patrick Flemming.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Leeder
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 04:23 PM

Thanks, everybody. I now know *way* more than I used to about black powder loading, and even a bit more about the song as well.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 04:33 PM

The "bowling", incidentally, probably refers to "road-bowling". This is a sort of grown-up version of marbles played on the public road! Now largely confined to Cork and, interestingly, Armagh.

Regards

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: kendall
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 04:35 PM

In the version I learned from Buryl Ives, he sang it, ..It was early in the morning between six and seven guards were all around me they numbered odd and even, I flew to me pistols but, alas I was mistaken, I fired off me pistols and a prisoner I was taken....

I'm not sure if he was singing it, I fired off me pistols, or I'D fired, past tense. The other difference is, some take delight in fishing and FOWLING,...(shooting birds) An old name for a shotgun is "fowling piece".

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 04:45 PM

JohninKansas, most serious blackpowder shooters I know refuse to use Pyrodex, maybe because they do living history events which forbid anything but real black powder. But most folks I have talked to don't like it much. I personally have never used it myself, because Mister won't have it in the house.

I always thought it was fishin & bowlin. I think I've also heard a version that says drinkin & bowlin. Aw heck, now I don't remember!

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 05:00 PM


Agreed that there are many who still use black powder, the point was that clever women who intend to do in their men by trachery should know that the old tricks might not work.

Black powder is still very much in use in the military - for blank cartridges, mostly. In "trad" gins, it produces a most impressive smoke, and it also has the advantage of much lower pressures than more modern propellants. More modern powders increase their rate of burning as pressure builds up, but without a projectile to retain sufficient pressure, they make a very unimpressive "salute."

The downside is that black powder leaves corrosives behind, and when you use it you MUST clean your "piece" thoroughly, if you don't want to find a pile of rust the next time you get it out.

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 05:06 PM

Now, what on earth would make you think that any of us Cat women would be that treacherous? ;-)

My flintlock rifle gets off about 10 shots before she's utterly filthy. Blech.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: kendall
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 06:03 PM

I used to hunt deer with a flintlock. Gave it all up 20 years ago.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 06:37 PM

The ballad sheet versions in the Bodleian all seem to have "fishing and fowling" BTW>

Regards

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 08:09 PM

That's "Metallica".

Metallica's "Whiskey In The Jar" is simply a cover of the original rock-ified version done by Irish rock group Thin Lizzie in the 70's. Metallica's cover is amazingly close to the original Thin Lizzy arrangement. So don't blame the words or music on Metallica.

I'd also like to say that I'd never been able to understand the tune of the song (I knew it as only "Kilgary Mountain" for years) until I heard Metallica's cover. It finally made sense.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Joe_F
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 08:53 PM

The saying as I have heard it was the mildly cynical "*Trust in God and* keep your powder dry".

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,Lil VanBone
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 09:43 PM

Well Jenny's a trickster, and while she could have just taken the charges and saved some work, she could also have just taken the guns away. Not this Jenny, nope, she had to make her husband look like a fool while the water dripped out of his guns. Definately shows how malicious she was.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Kaleea
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 11:34 PM

In the 1960's Peter, Paul & Mary sneaked "Whiskey in the Jar" past the censors by calling it "Kilgerry Mountain." Growing up in the Irish music scene, I heard the words sung as: 1. As I was goin over the far famed Kerry Mountains I met with Captain Farrell & his money he was countin I first produced me pistol and then produced me rapier saying stand & deliver for for you are the bold deceiver (nonsense words which vary from singer to singer) cho: with your dum diddle diddy fi o whack fol a diddle o whack fol a diddle o there's whiskey in the jar. 2.I counted out me money & it made a pretty penny I put it in me pocket & I took it home to Jenny. She sighed & she swore that she never would deceive me but the divil take the women for they never can be easy. cho 3. I went into me chamber for to take me a slumber I dreamt of gold & jewels & sure twas no wonder For Jenny took me charges (as in bullets) and filled them up with water and sent for Captain Farrell to be ready for the saughter cho 4. Twas early in the mornin, before I rose to travel the guards were all around me & likewise Captain Farrell I then produced me pistol for she stole away me rapier (an 18 inch long sword) But I couldn't shoot the water so a prisoner I was taken. cho When I've been in Ireland, I sometimes have heard this sung, and it is pretty much the same as I heard growing up. There is usually a 5th verse about the brother in the army & they go "a rovin'" I never heard anyone sing the phrases mentioned above, and have never heard the rock groups do it, only traditional Irish musicians.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Gary T
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 11:56 PM

Kaleea, you jogged my memory. When I posted this above--In another version I've heard, she takes his pistol(s) away, leaving only his rapier available.--I was mixed up--it was his rapier she took, not his pistol. I stand corrected.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 01:05 AM

---"For Molly hid me pistols and a prisoner I was taken" ----"Some take delight in the fishin' and the bowlin'" These are the words I have used for donkey's years; not that it matters, the song holds up well with a variety of lyrics--"Molly", "Jenny", etc.. Boab

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Amos
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 01:10 AM

"The only one can aid me is me brother in the Army;
But i don't know where he's posted, up in Cork or in Killarney..."

That's the Auld Country version -- for obvious reasons by the time Warner collected it in the uplands of New York state, or wherever he found it, the reference to Irish counties had fallen away.

A

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: SeanM
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 02:39 AM

Speaking from a Rennie perspective...

The friends I have who use black powder weapons back up the 'watered powder' idea. It renders the powder more or less inert, and (as noted above) is a BITCH to clean out. Discovering this in the midst of a fight where said weapons were your only defense would be VERY nasty.

All things considered, it's a class of song that I'd sum up nicely in "Gee, wish I spent my time in better company"...

M

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Whitewater
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 03:22 AM

More information about what were termed 'nonsense words' by Kaleea, unless she was referring to the chorus, which of course ARE nonsense but a very important part of Irish folk life :>

'Stand and deliver!" was the phrase commonly used by highwaymen (and women) to announce their presence to their victim/quarry along whichever road they were working just before they demanded the money and valuables. Highwaymen were apparent in every era and century but were most prevalent, apparently, in the late 1600's to the early 1800's.

Charges were generally hung around the upper body on what we now call a bandolier and were nicknamed The Twelve Apostles. They are about, oh, the length of between your fully extended thumb and forefinger and carry maybe about 100 grams of powder, generally enough for two-four shots depending, with a cork or some other contraption that fits firmly in the top. Dunno how much they can carry if packed really full, as we in our living history group only carry enough to fire a total of about six times per weapon, also to prevent spillage because besides being expensive, it's also dangerous around open fire, flint/tinder etc. What surprises me about the songs ref. is not that she filled the charges up with water (trying to pour water into your pan or down the barrell would NOT be good!) but that there are/were charges available for pistols. Were they smaller sized or what? I've only seen them (in paintings and other primary sources) full-size.

HTH,

Whitewater

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 07:36 AM

As a point of military history, being caught with an unloaded musket is probably safer than being caught with a loaded one, since you don't have to waste any time firing an unloaded one. They were always (early ones anyway) more effective when used as a good, stout club...

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: John P
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 08:11 AM

Tequila in the Jar
by Bob Kotta

As I was goin' through the mountains of Morelos
I spied Captain Sanchez, he was countin' his dineros
I pulled out my pistola and stuck it in his middle
Saying, "Give me all your money 'cause I am a bad bandido!"
Muchos gringos trabahar,
Whack fol the barrio, whack fol the barrio,
Es tequila in the jar.

I took all that money and went home to my Maria
She say them shining pesos and said, "It's good to see ya!"
She vowed and she swore that she'd never blow my cover
But never trust a woman if she's got another lover!
Muchos gringos trabahar,
Whack fol the barrio, whack fol the barrio,
Es tequila in the jar.

I woke up the next morning, had a breakfast of tamales
When the casa was surrounded by a bunch of Federales
They kicked in the door and they broke the window latches
And took me off to prison, but they had no stinkin' badges!
Muchos gringos trabahar,
Whack fol the barrio, whack fol the barrio,
Es tequila in the jar.

In the calaboose they put me with all the other fellows
For robbin' Captain Sanchez in the mountains of Morelos
But they didn't take my reefers so I got the jailer loaded
And then I ran away while his mind it was eroded
Muchos gringos trabahar,
Whack fol the barrio, whack fol the barrio,
Es tequila in the jar.

I think I'll find me brother, the one who's in Ayisto
We'll get ourselves a Chevy and go up to San Fransico
Together we'll go crusin' and pretend like we are machos
Pick up pretty women, get 'em drunk and feed 'em nachos!
Muchos gringos trabahar,
Whack fol the barrio, whack fol the barrio,
Es tequila in the jar.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Fiolar
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 08:32 AM

Bowling as mentioned earlier in the thread has very little to do with marbles. The sport consists of throwing a 28 ounce iron ball over a measured course always played on the roads around County Cork and in Armagh. The winner was the person who completed the distance in the least number of throws. It was always to the best of my rememberance played on Sunday afternoons when traffic was at a minumum. It required quite a degree of skill to keep the missile on the road and prevent it going into a dike or ditch. Also a highly experienced individual could cut down the number of throws by lofting the bowl across bends in the road. Cork mudcatters will recall the famous bowler "Flor Lar" who was able to clear the viaduct on the main Cork to Bandon road which was some 150 to 200 feet high. Young bowlers used to start out with a 14 ounce bowl. Happy days.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Fiolar
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 08:44 AM

Forgot to mention that hundreds of pounds often were lost and won on the results of a bowling match.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 09:08 AM

When I read the description of road-bowling I realised it is virtually identical to 'Boßeln' played traditionally in a tiny part of the very North-West of Germany and the very North-East of the Netherlands (neighbouring regions). I went to their homepage and found out that they have European championships every four years in the three disciplines:
Irish iron bowl
Frisian wood bowl and
Dutch bowl
The championships are exclusively in Germany or Holland or Ireland. I guess it would be formally correct to call the three countries event (with a rare Italian team) a world championship.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,Swan
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 03:55 PM

I would have thought Jenny clearly filled whatever it was up with water so that the songmaker could rhyme it with the more dramatic 'slaughter' rather than the more mundane 'taken'.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 05:17 PM


This is obviously a song which has been influenced by the folk process during its long life.

An uninformed observation would be that "fishing and fowling" would probably have gone together in an early version, in an era when many people might have supplemented their rations with 'the bounty of the land.' Most people who did one of these would likely also do the other.

"Hurling and bowlng" would seem to go together, and would be the appropriate 'set' for a society in which recreational(?) activities were common. Perhaps implying a more "urban" populace.

Other "pairs" that have been mentioned seem somewhat a mixed bag. Perhaps this particular phrase is a clue to the time and locale in which a version originates.

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Daystar
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 05:52 PM

The song is one we get asked for at renactment does Roy harris did a version on Champions of Folly as to black powder some time charges are made up in readyness if you dont have a powder flask so Jenny could have stolen them and put water in the pan to make extra sure he could not fire the pistol

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 07:02 PM

Which comes back to the old arguments on cartridges. The redcoats using Tower Pattern Muskets, ( or indeed the Green Jackets using rifles) were issued with premeasured ball and black powder made up in Cartidge Paper. The bandolieers with the 12 Apostols were from an earlier era, (inc UK civil war).

The cartridges were greased in animal fat (See the Indian Mutiny)

Diferent ages, different loading techniques.

But I'll go along with Dai - when your musket/pistols were fired the most effective use was as a club !! - hence the issue of very long bayonets to the rifles and known as swords.

You don't have that problem with the long bow but then drill could teach a farmhand how to load and fire a musket by wrote. The bow required years of practice.

BTW the large calibre fire arms used by the British Army were more to do with physically stopping an oncharging Zulu or Pathan (Pushtu) than accuracy - If you want an excellent example of old fashioned infantry drill with the 0.44 single shot Martini Rifle see the film ZULU

Gareth

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 10:56 PM


And see ZULU just for the music!

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Mudlark
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 09:27 PM

John P....thanks for the great parody...I've never seen it before. These threads turn up the most intereting stuff...

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 01:39 PM

Gareth,

Sorry to be pedantic, but the "greased" cartiridges didn't come in until the 1850s (in the British Army, not until the introduction of the 1853 Enfield rifled musket) - on the subject of the "grease", the only examples I have seen have been waxed, not greased.

The large calibe was more to do with black powder as a propellant than any hitting power and only became an issue after the introduction of rifling and breech loading for the majority of the Army (remember, on the general introduction of rifles, the calibre dropped from .75" to .577") (British military handguns, however, remained large calibre for just that reason).

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 02:55 PM

Hurling - the most exciting field sport there is. Here is a link to the Gaelic Athletic Association website - and here is a website with lots of picture and stuff.

As for road bowling with cannonballs - it's spread a bit further than Cork and Armagh - here is a site from New Zealand where it seems to be going strong.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 03:07 PM

John P, excellent! Is "stinking badges" from Blazin Saddles?
Keith.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Gary T
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 06:52 PM

Keith, it's from "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre," starring Humphrey Bogart.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 07:03 PM

No comment on "Ivor Emanuel" in ZuLu - sorry South Wales cultral joke.

Walrus - yet again you fill in the points I missed, but the Apostles dates back to the matchlock !!! Though again the question of greased caetrides fits to the Indian mutiny.

I fired a replica tower musket once - oooh it hurt my shoulder.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 01:17 AM

Anyone noticed "There's Whiskey in the Jug", 1858 (with music), on the Levy collection website? It's only slightly later than the earliest (Hodges) issue of "Whiskey in the Jar" on the Bodleian Ballads website, and earlier than the other 3 issues there. The girl is Molly in these. Is Jenny found before the 20th century?

When was "Patrick Flemming" reworked into "Whiskey in the Jar"? c 1850?

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: The Walrus
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 07:25 AM

Gareth,

Indeed the "Twelve Apostles" date from the 17th Century and are possibly (no evidence) the first use of premeasured charges for firearms, but I've always assumed this song to be later {1}. I suspect the term "charges" in the song refer to the loaded round rather than any particular means of loading the weapon, however the powder is carried, the weapon is still "charged".

On the subject of Pyrodex (mentioned in a couple of earlier posts), I understood that it was generally used in ammunition for cartridge weapons which were only "proofed" for black powder (example, the pre-1900 Webley revolvers), but NOT for muzzle loaders.

Walrus

{1} I tend to associate "apostles" with muskets and carbiners rather than pistols

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: John P
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 08:53 AM

Keith A,
"stinking badges" is, I think, from a Cheech and Chong skit and refers to the sometimes irregular nature of Mexican law enforcement.

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 10:27 PM

Pyrodex can be used pretty much interchangeably with black powder. It is apparently a more modern "smokeless?" propellant, mixed with a filler so that a given quantity, by volume - as black powder is usually measured in field use, gives about the same propellant energy as would be obtained with black powder. It can be used in muzzle loaders, flintlocks or cap and ball, or in cartridge loads for guns designed in the black powder era.

It is formulated to be "pressure regressive" like black powder - above a certain pressure the rate of burning of black powder tends to slow down. Most smokeless powders actually increase the rate of burning with increasing pressure, at least up to a point, - and a small error in quantity could easily blow your gun apart. Smokeless powder generally must be accurately weighed - you don't just pour a jigger down the muzzle.

Reenactment people probably prefer to use the "real" black powder, for the sake of authenticity. It does make somewhat more impressive smoke.

Both are used in "blackpowder" or "muzzleloading" hunting seasons, where states designate them. Both are also used in "blackpowder" target shooting.

Unless the situation has changed recently, there is no US manufacturer of "real" black powder now, and Pyrodex is safer and easier to ship and store.

Re: "steenkin bodges" - its from Treasure of the Sierra Madres" - Bogart; stolen, mangled, and used in Blazing Saddles and elsewhere. See Cowboy Lines for a recent debate.

John

Subject: RE: Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar'
From: Julie B
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 08:45 AM

Re. the chorus, I know the last three lines are usually something like:

"whack fol the daddy o,

whack fol the daddy o,

There's whiskey in the jar."

...but what version(s) of the first chorus line do people most commonly sing?

Julie B