BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 05:16 PM

"And one last point. Another reason for posting simply as Guest is to help keep respondents focused on the content of the post rather than being distracted by the identity of the poster"

Oh yeah? Well it doesn't work, does it? Apart from anything else, the contents of all your posts are uninformed, bigoted and usually downright racist. Which is precisely why you don't want us to "focus on you." Oh, did I say "dishonest and disingenuous" too?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 05:27 PM

Hey Shaw, have you checked under you bed, behind your couch and in your cupboards, there might be Islamophobes hiding there.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:10 PM

Have ya checked in yer head, Fred?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:12 PM

Well there's clearly plenty of room inside it, Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 06:41 PM

Songs in praise of stabbing are huge hits on Palestinian street, and may be motivators too.

'Lovers of Stabbing,' most popular of stream of gruesome anthems, has over 5 million views on YouTube; manager of band asserts it directly inspired recent attack.

The Times of Israel

Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 10:00 PM

Hmm. I suppose that military marching band tunes inspire mass warfare waged by powerful mega-nations too, who don't exactly go to battle with knives borrowed out of the kitchen. You really are a dismal clown, aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 10:26 PM

Have you checked your garden shed Shaw? There might be Islamophobes in there you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 02:09 AM

Jim,
yet your entire defence for 2014 is based on just that.

No.
I just put Israel's case that it acted within International Law, against war criminal terrorists flouting it and placing their own civilians in harms way to protect their fighters.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:12 AM

I'll tell you what Lilo. Reading some of your posts may not result in knowing more but they certainly help understand more.

Yeah, I'll critique UN and if I am comfortable with their stance, I'll say so. Partisan support for aggression I'll leave to armchair fantasists.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:41 AM

" I suppose that military marching band tunes inspire mass warfare waged by powerful mega-nations"

Well quite a number of contributors to this forum certainly think so going by what they submitted to the Jingoism or Commemoration thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:55 AM

"I just put Israel's case that it acted within International Law, a"
You have had the facts Keith
Israel has only acted within "International law" because it has never had to confront "Interntional Law - it has been protected by American Veto which has prevented it from coming to trial.
Israel's position as far as "International Law is concerned is exactly the same as that of Assad's Syria which is protected by Russian and Chinese veto - both Israel and Syria are terrorist states and both are untried - if "Israel didn't do it" as you claim, then neither did Assad (I wait with interest to see if support of Syrian terrorism will be your next big attention seeker).
We mortals have only the facts to go on.
You have the detailed evidence of Israel's acts of terror - not opinions - on the spot, eye witness accounts from medical staff, from human rights representatives (a real eye-opener - your not admitting to supporting human rights), from Jewish historians documenting Isreal's history, From David Ben Gurion....... every single thing I have put up I have linked to evidence - you have put up none yourself and responded to nothing.
Your pathetic argument that the Israeli regime must be innocent because Western politicians have continued to have friendly relations with her on their crimes exceeds every idiotic excuse you have ever put up - and that's saying something
On that basis, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Russia, China, Syria.... and all the despotic terrorist states the West "has friendly relations with are all as innocent as babes in arms.
Give us a break - that's as feeble-minded as it comes.
The west's silence is based entirely on the fact that Israel's supporters are politically and economically influential - a force to be reckoned with for Western politicians and economists.
Their position in the world today is little different than that of the gun lobby in the U.S. - too powerful to go against - innocent children continue to be massacred in American schoolyards; Palestinians continue to suffer and die in The Middle East.   
You said you don't claim "Israel is innocent", that I "made it up".
You lied and confirmed your lying by continuing to say "Israel is innocent"
Now - give us your evidence that "Israel is innocent" - confront the evidence - your efforts haven't been exactly auspicious so far.
"Songs in praise of stabbing are huge hits on Palestinian street,"

Israelis watch Gazan bombardment from front-row seats

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 04:00 AM

Correction
a real eye-opener - your ADMITTING not supporting human rights
Nice opportunity to repeat this revealing fact
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 05:35 AM

Well I suppose that military marching bands in all their warring finery are more respectable than summat on YouTube then, Teribus. A bit like white phosphorus, remote control rifles and cluster bombs being more respectable than kitchen knives.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 05:56 AM

Israel has only acted within "International law" because it has never had to confront "Interntional Law

Not true. International Law applies to Gaza 2014.
It is acceptable to counter an aggressor who attacks civilians indiscriminately, breaking International Law.
If that aggressor further breaks International Law by operating from civilian areas, it is still acceptable to counter them if certain provisions are adhered to.
Israel did.

Your pathetic argument that the Israeli regime must be innocent because Western politicians have continued to have friendly relations with her

Democratic governments are not uncritical of Israel.
Israel's settlement policy has come in for strong criticism, but there is just no evidence of any massacres or atrocities.
Just accusations from Israel's enemies, and propaganda.

We have to hold our noses and deal with some unsavoury regimes because of their strategic assets such as oil.
Israel has only orange juice.
No-one has to be their friend, but decent democracies like to encourage others, especially in a region otherwise devoid of them.

The west's silence is based entirely on the fact that Israel's supporters are politically and economically influential
Who??
Israel's enemies have a lot of clout too!
The whole Arab world.
The whole Muslim world.
Every corrupt regime that fears democracy.

You said you don't claim "Israel is innocent"

You dishonestly put it in quotes claiming I had actually said it.
I never have or would. You lied, not me.
No country is wholly innocent.
All I have done is to put their side, just as you put the opposite side.

How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put?
What is your objection Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 06:27 AM

your ADMITTING not supporting human rights

Another lie about me.
Of course I support human rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:08 AM

Ehmmm NO Steve I do not think that I or any other sensible person has ever for one second supposed "that military marching band tunes inspire mass warfare waged by powerful mega-nations".

But daft "rebel" songs inciting and glorifying violence do their bit as propaganda to those who are idiotic and simple enough to pay them any heed. Still I suppose it illustrates the "power" of those who wish to encourage and hold up as "heroes" those who go out and stab unarmed civilians - gosh how brave of them. And then we get complete and utter prats like Jim and the rest of the gang of "usual suspects" crying foul when these murders are themselves killed - totally misguided or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:13 AM

Teribus, a bit like songs about crushing rebellious Scots you mean?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:16 AM

Do Rule Britannia, Jerusalem, Land of My fathers, Flower of Scotland, Land of Hope and Glory qualify as "daft rebel songs" because they do incite and glorify violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:21 AM

How do those songs incite and glorify violence?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:26 AM

You're clutching at straws, Teribus. Marching bands, rebel songs and whatever that YouTube video is are all out to try to inspire those who think God's on their side. No-one's better or worse than anyone else in that particular regard. As for who kills who, with what and why, well I'll let you lot carry on with that if you don't mind. There is life beyond this website to live.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:38 AM

I wouldn't expect you to understand professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:41 AM

You mean you have no answer Rag!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:47 AM

Jerusalem is just bizarre, part inspired by an unevidenced legend about Joseph of Arimathea bringing the infant Christ to Glastonbury, and part by imagery out of Ezekiel. The first verse poses for questions, the answer to each is a resounding "NO". Not Blake's finest hour, but if its supposed to inspire violence it would be pretty bad at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 07:47 AM

No I mean exactly what I wrote, I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:04 AM

"Not true. International Law applies to Gaza 2014.2
And has been found possibly liable to investigation by the International Criminal Court - enquiries into whether they have a case to answer are now taking place.
Israel is so confient of its position it has demanded the closure of the International Criminal Court.
"Democratic governments are not uncritical of Israel."
No democratic government has absolved Israel from war crimes and atrocities - they have remain silent
Only America has gone further and used a veto - many, many times, to protect Israel - Obama has threatened to withdraw that veto, despite powerful pro-Israeli lobbying
"Every corrupt regime that fears democracy."
Mostly "supported" by friendly trade and political relations with the "democratic" west.
"Israel has only orange juice."
Are you joking?
Israel has a rapidly expanding arms industry - it tried to sell parts for nuclear weapons to Apatheid South Africa deacades ago, it has an increasingly expanding 'Drone' industry
It has been extimated that Israel is the 7th largest exporter of arms in the world today - all the ethical peace-loving products you could wish for - to anywhere.
As for natural gas.
"In January 17, 2009, a team led by the Texas firm, Noble Energy Inc., discovered methane in a field (Tamar) now estimated to contain 275 billion cubic meters (9.7 trillion cubic feet) of natural gas—about half of what Europe consumes annually. A year later, the same team announced the discovery of monster gas field to the west of Tamar (Leviathan), which alone contains about as much gas as Europe consumes annually. There have been several other finds of smaller, but nevertheless substantial fields. In neighboring Cyprus, another field (Aphrodite) comparable to Tamar was discovered by Noble Energy, abutting and even slightly spilling into Israel's waters. In short, Israel and its neighbor now sit atop roughly two years' worth of European consumption."
Oranges my arse - pehaps you should eat more of them - they are said to be good for your health (don't know about mental health though)!!
"You dishonestly put it in quotes claiming I had actually said it."
I have said since that it makes no difference what you claim amounts to exactly the same thing only more crudely put
"True - what you actually said is "It is all tosh Jim."
"How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put?"
You are not putting arguments Keith - simply denying Israel's guilt is not an argument - it's a denial.
I've been asking you to put up an argument since the very beginning; instead you have simply resorted to "It is all tosh" level denials.
You made some effort at point 5 of my last lot of evidence, fell at the first fence and now have resorted to "Israel is innocent" again (no apologies for inverted commas - that is exactly what you are saying.
"But daft "rebel" songs inciting and glorifying violence"
see link to "Israelis watch Gazan bombardment from front-row seats"
All examples of the entertainment value of violence, me little cabin-boy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:21 AM

Jim,
it (Israel) has demanded the closure of the International Criminal Court.

You have made this claim a number of times now.
You have yet to substantiate it.
Please do so now.

No democratic government has absolved Israel from war crimes and atrocities - they have remain silent

Yes, because Israel has committed none!
On real issues, like settlements, they can be very critical but no serious person believes all that shit about massacres and atrocities.
You are too gullible Jim!

Israel has a rapidly expanding arms industry
That makes it a rival of most democracies, not a reason for friendship.
No-one has to be their friend, but decent democracies like to encourage others, especially in a region otherwise devoid of them.

You are not putting arguments Keith - simply denying Israel's guilt is not an argument - it's a denial.

That is not what I do.
All I have done is to put their side, just as you put the opposite side.
How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put?
What is your objection Jim?

I chose to respond to your point 5.
I put Israel's case that it abided by International Law, and the civilian deaths were due to Hamas' flouting of the law.
You have failed to challenge a word of it.
Would you like to choose the next one?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:33 AM

GUEST,Raggytash - 29 Jan 16 - 07:38 AM

"I wouldn't expect you to understand professor."

Just as nobody now on this forum ever expects any sort of explanation or substantiation for the idiotic drivel you come out with Raggy such as your post of 29 Jan 16 - 07:16 AM.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:34 AM

JERUSALEM — There have been fights over books, music, plays, funding for the arts and academic awards. This being Israel, they have been underpinned by fierce rhetorical exchanges about democracy, fascism and zealotry, identity, the future of the state and the fate of Jews.

The latest was an attack on Wednesday by a far-right group on beloved leftist literary icons including Amos Oz, A. B. Yehoshua and David Grossman, writers who have been considered the voice — and conscience — of the state for years. The group, Im Tirtzu, began a poster campaign calling the writers "moles in culture," which prompted accusations of McCarthyism.

Ms. Regev the divisive and conservative minister of culture and sport,said that the aim of the "Loyalty in Culture" initiative, proposed as an amendment to a must-pass budget bill, is "for the first time to make support for a cultural institution dependent on its loyalty to the state of Israel."

"The search, identification and marking of alleged traitors is an old fascist characteristic, an ugly and dangerous one," said an appalled Benny Begin, a member of Parliament and a former minister from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party.

This month, the left-leaning daily Haaretz highlighted internal discussions in the ministry about what artistic works might be considered "politically undesirable" for high-school students. Among the criteria, the newspaper said, were whether artists would perform in West Bank settlements and declare loyalty to the state and to the national anthem, something that is particularly problematic for Israel's Arab citizens.

Internal discussions are not policy, but even this report drew stinging responses, with Oded Kotler, a prominent Israeli actor and director, comparing Israel to the Soviet Union and telling Israel Radio, "There's a real culture war underway here, but the war from that side of the political map is a harbinger of zealotry, darkness and coercion."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/30/world/middleeast/israel-mired-in-ideological-battles-fights-on-cultural-fronts.html?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 08:50 AM

Well, Teribus, I suppose Jerusalem has something of the allegory about its bow, arrows and chariot of fire, but the others aren't exactly pacifist songs, are they? Even a little bit imperialistic in places? Raggytash could have included Hearts Of Oak as well, I suppose. Just because these songs are now regarded as part of our tradition and a little "establishment" (last night of the Proms, anyone?) doesn't take away from their original intent, which was to inspire people to be, er, non-pacifist... I'm not judging that but I am saying that you're wrong to assume that "our" militaristic songs are fine whereas those of The Other are not. It's the way of the world to have tunes to rouse you to the cause. The whole world, including us. You don't have to like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 09:48 AM

"You have yet to substantiate it."
Done so a long time ago - 'ere we go again.
"The Palestinian Authority becomes the 123rd member of the International Criminal Court on Wednesday, a major step that could move its decades-long conflict with Israel into a courtroom.
Israel is opposed to the court, is not a member and has no plans to cooperate with investigators already looking into possible crimes by both sides during fighting. It was furious when the Palestinians announced their application on Dec. 31 and tried to undermine it by lobbying to cut funding to the court."
Reuters
"Yes, because Israel has committed none!"
Been there - done that Keith - yes they have, and are continuing to do so.
War crimes and atrocities are not a consideration in international politics and never have been.
The U.S. has committed war crimes itself and has assisted terrorist leaders in countries such as Chile to overthrow democratically elected governments - 'Democratic' Mrs T fought like a tigress to keep mass torturer and murderer, Augusto Pinochet from standing trial for his torturing and murder, called British politicians who wanted to put him on trial as "running a police state" and described him as 'her kind of democrat'
The Western world has largely followed suit in turning their backs on War Crimes and acts of terrorism by its friendly allies - Syria being a cse in point (ten years of torture, murder and human rights abuses before it even got a mention), let alone, stop selling riot contol gear, miliraty equipment and chemicals capable of being turned into weapons.
It eventually
"That makes it a rival of most democracies, not a reason for friendship."
You calied it only had oranges - don't be silly
"That is not what I do."
Then where are your arguments - other than "Israel is innocent O.K.?"
"I chose to respond to your point 5."
You were shot down in flames - Israel's friends have helped her never to have faced international law, far from "failing to challenge a word of it", you had the legs cut from under you and are still ignoring the rest of the points - which was the purpose of your one-by-one demands in the first place - delaying tactics.
Go away Keith before you disgrace yourself even further
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM

it (Israel) has demanded the closure of the International Criminal Court.

So this is another made up fact Jim!
You claim it but can not substantiate because it is not true.

Been there - done that Keith - yes they have, and are continuing to do so.

Israel denies any and no decent democracy holds the guilty of any such.
Just accusations and propaganda Jim. You are so gullible!

Then where are your arguments - other than "Israel is innocent O.K.?"

No arguments at all.
I just put their side, as you put the opposite side.
How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put?
What is your objection Jim?

"I chose to respond to your point 5."
You were shot down in flames -

No! You did not challenge a single word.

Here it is again,
Israel was subjected to indiscriminate attacks on its civilians from terrorists hiding among civilians. It was a victim of war crimes.
It had a right and duty to respond, and tried to do so without breaking international law. The civilian deaths were the result of Hamas' war crimes not Israel's.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:00 AM

Israel is opposed to the court, is not a member and has no plans to cooperate with investigators already looking into possible crimes by both sides during fighting. It was furious when the Palestinians announced their application on Dec. 31 and tried to undermine it by lobbying to cut funding to the court.
The demands for closure were made when Palestine was accepted as a member.
It is opposed to the court's existence and has attempted to cut its funding.
As a non-member it has now power to openly demand the closure of the court but it has attempted to gets its friends to neutralise its work bu cutting its funding
"Now, however, in response to the ICC's launch of a preliminary investigation into alleged crimes in Palestinian territory, Israeli government officials have chosen to challenge the very existence of the court. Is Israel's campaign to delegitimate the ICC likely to advance its interests? Based on comparable campaigns by aggrieved states, the answer is almost certainly no."
Israel attempts to challenge existence if ICC
Don't you dare call me a liar - your whole case is based on lies.
"You are so gullible!"
You have had the evidence and produced none yourself

"
Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM

it (Israel) has demanded the closure of the International Criminal Court.

So this is another made up fact Jim!
You claim it but can not substantiate because it is not true.

Been there - done that Keith - yes they have, and are continuing to do so.

Israel denies any and no decent democracy holds the guilty of any such.
Just accusations and propaganda Jim. You are so gullible!

Then where are your arguments - other than "Israel is innocent O.K.?"

No arguments at all.
I just put their side, as you put the opposite side.
How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put?
What is your objection Jim?

"I chose to respond to your point 5."
You were shot down in flames -

No! You did not challenge a single word."
Ok Jim.
5   In 2015, Israel invaded Gaza, leaving 2,104 Palestinian dead, including 1,462 civilians - 344 children.

Israel was subjected to indiscriminate attacks on its civilians from terrorists hiding among civilians. It was a victim of war crimes.
It had a right and duty to respond, and tried to do so without breaking international law. The civilian deaths were the result of Hamas' war crimes not Israel's.

No decent democratic government believes Israel guilty of any massacre or atrocity.
They know it is all propaganda, but deluded hate filled people like you suck it all up without a question.

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Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 28 Jan 16 - 07:16 AM

No excuse of the atrocities done during the invasion the destructuion of occupied hospitals, he unprecedented killing of so many children (according to Ban Ki-Moon) or women and old people.
"No decent democratic government believes Israel guilty of any massacre or atrocity."
Every single human rights group has accused it of these - not interested what self-interested politicians think.
Not done too well so far - no evidence, just denials "Israel didn't do it"
Now how about that rest of number 5?
Jim Carroll

WILL YOU STOP LYING
Now will you piss off - out of shame, if nothing ales
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:06 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:06 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:11 AM

Brucie seems to be blowing for tugs - maybe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:16 AM

I just asked you to substantiate the claim Jim.
I only accuse you of lying when it is unequivocal.
It appears that the Foreign Minister, Lieberman, threatened to "dismantle" ICC.
I am not clear what power he or the Israeli government has to do such a thing.
He said this over a year ago and nothing has been heard about it since.
Just a bit of bluster I think.

Which of your many points would you like me to address next Jim, if you are not going to challenge the demolition of your point 5?

I hope you see now why it is not practical to address them all at once.
One at a time please.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 11:33 AM

"I just asked you to substantiate the claim Jim."
"So this is another made up fact Jim! - You claim it but can not substantiate because it is not true."
Looks like being accused of lying to ma - perhaps I'm getting over-senssitive in my old age
Will you stop lying - it seems to be congenital with you
"Just a bit of bluster I think."
Just a bit of avoiding being brought to International Criminal Court for war crimes, I think
"Which of your many points would you like me to address next Jim,"
Piss off Keith - you haven't addressed any yet and you don't intend to
Just admit you don't and go away - or better still, just go away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 01:57 PM

Tell us all Jom the countries that do not recognise the power or jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court the two at the top of the list are USSR/Russia and the USA - take it from there.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 02:42 PM

"Tell us all Jom the countries that do not recognise the power or jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court the two at the top of the list are USSR/Russia and the USA -"
The have both committed atrocities - what's your point?
Are you suggesting that either of them are democracies in the proper sense - nah - even you
Not sure where USSR comes into it anyway - Russia is one of the white hats since it was freed from communism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:36 PM

Keith. Are you sure? Double doggy dare sure that Israel has committed no atrocities?

Really?

Not even the ones where you stated that the schools and hospitals their terrorist militants blew up were "legitimate targets?"

Are you sure that you, Terribulus and that anonymous twat are right and The UN, British Government, EU etc are wrong?

Really?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jan 16 - 03:42 PM

"The verdict on the Court [ICC] is mixed. It has gone some way to ending impunity and it is certainly an improvement on the
ad hoc tribunals. However it is inevitably a political body rather than a purely legal institution"

Kirsten Ainley
London School of Economics
Published in Cambridge Review of International Affairs, 2011, 24 (3). pp. 309-333

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:08 AM

Keith. Are you sure? Double doggy dare sure that Israel has committed no atrocities?

No.
I am also not double doggy dare sure that France has committed no atrocities?

I am sure that no unequivocal evidence exists for either, and I am sure that it is reasonable to put both sides of the story.

Re ICC, Lieberman made his strange statement last January.
In December it emerged that Israel has been co-operating with ICC since July, so it was just a bit of nonsense.

Also in December the interim report has not confirmed a single war crime, so how can you all be double doggy dare sure that Israel has committed atrocities?

It is fortunate that some of us are fair and open minded enough to consider both sides of the argument.
Someone who is so prejudiced as to assume guilt in the absence of any evidence might reasonably be called a bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:57 AM

"I am sure that no unequivocal evidence exists for either, "
You have been given it - you refuse to even answer it - it exists and Israel has tried to ascertain that they don't stand trial for it.
You have even denied (without evidence) the most accepted (by Isreal) Jewish historian of the Israeli State, Benny Morris, just as you tried to first deny, then re-write, then both at the same time, the admission of David Ben Gurion.
Your defence of Israel, in attacking the founders of Israel, has now become Antisemitic
You have no interest in the welfare of the Jewish People - your aim is to defend the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state.
Redeem your behaviour and address the evidence you have been given, which you could have worked out for yourself - it has always been there
Then you can go back to defending asylum seekers being forced to wear degrading and dangerous identification tags.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:08 AM

Disagreeing with Jim get you accused of antisemitism, islamophobia, , being a fucking disgrace, living in a fantasy and so on . the usual tactics employed when their arguments get more and more absurd . It never ceases to amaze me how Jims irrational hatered can be defended.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:36 AM

But Jim puts detailed arguments. His posts far exceed in content and links anything by you or Keith. Whether you agree with what he says or not (I do, nearly all the time), that is incontrovertible. Instead of sniping at a chap with whom you just happen to disagree why not try to strike a balance here and look also at the posts of one of your allies, Teribus. All sweetness and light there, eh? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:37 AM

he most accepted (by Isreal) Jewish historian of the Israeli State, Benny Morris,

There is no consensus among historians of Israel as there is about aspects of WW1.
There are as many views as there are historians.
You accept without question everything ever said against israel and refuse to accept that there is any other narrative.
There is.

You have been given it (unequivocal evidence of atrocities by Israel.)

No we have not, because there is none.

the admission of David Ben Gurion.

Those quotes were fake, and you knew they were when you gave them.

You have no interest in the welfare of the Jewish People - your aim is to defend the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state.

No, I just put their side of the story.
How could any fair minded person object to both sides of an argument being put?
What is your objection Jim?


Redeem your behaviour and address the evidence you have been given,
None actually!

It never ceases to amaze me how Jims irrational hatred can be defended.

Very few do. Four names? All sharing his extreme politics and feeling they have to support him.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:53 AM

" No, I just put their side of the story"

Is that the side of the

"the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state"

Thought it might be.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:44 AM

"There is no consensus among historians of Israel as there is about aspects of WW1."
Christ only knows where WW1 comes into this - still smarting from the kicking you got on the subject, no doubt
Who disputes Benny Morris and on what grounds - didn't he sell his books in "Real bookshops" - can't be that he's dead.
The only criticism of Benny Morris I can find is that he tends to draw his information only from Israeli sources.
The massacres he lists, which you claim don't exist "what massacres?" - or "no massacres" - are recorded events of history - they were petitioned against by Einstein, and have never been denied - until now, by you.
"No we have not, because there is none."
Just answerd that one - the rest have never been tried because any pfficial eaxamination of them has been blocked by U.S. vetoes.
"Those quotes were fake, and you knew they were when you gave them."
Now we're back to "fake" after theme being "he didn't mean that" - you cant't even stick to your own story
Who says they are "fake" other than you?
People have tried to re-interpret them, as you have , but nobody has denied they were ever made - other than you.
Is this the line you are going with now or can we expect something else in the future?
"No, I just put their side of the story."
You are not giving the Israeli's "side of the story" - only that of the Israeli regime.
Report of massacres, of atrocities and persecution, and attemprs to set up an apartheid state, from Haraatz, from Jews for Justice, from Rabbis for Justice, from jews both inside and outside Israel - your line is only peddled from the extreme right-wing politicians who refuse to be tried for their crimes - that's waht I said - you have rejected what all Jew who don't suppore the regime have to say.   
Criticism of the Isreali by Jews has covered: Antisemitism, persecution of Palestinians, same of the Bedouins, the Blockade, massacres, using chemicals against both Palestinians and Bedouins, bringing the reputation of the Jewish people into disrepute, using "antisemitism" as a defence and by doing so, putting the wellbeing of Jews throughout the world at risk, creating an Apartheid state, encouraging Apartheid South Africa to obtain nuclear weapons.... and much much more
Even Holocaust survivors condemned Israel for the Gaza the massacres you claim have never taken place. Holocaust survivors condemn massacres
By brushing aside all these criticisms, you have adopted teh attitude that every Jew who criticisms the Israeli regime is not to be believed or regarded - that reeks of Antisemitism (and something just as sinister) in my book.
You have linked nothing, you have produced no evidence for anything - do so now, or climb down
"Disagreeing with Jim get you accused of antisemitism, "
Read what I put up Lilo and answer - that'll prove me wrong
You drift in and out of these discussions on tee tide like your air-filled namesake.
How about the information on Vanunu - that'd be a good start.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:49 AM

"the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state"

Sez you and your nut buddies not non bigoted people.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:56 AM

Jim puts up over the top rants. His arguments, if one can call those rants rants arguments , consist of venomous bile and hatred. you may call it balanced debate, I would call it by another name.
I am not blindly pro Israel. I am aware of the situation in that country and like many others, I am also aware of what needs to change, not just in Israel, but in the Middle East. To disagree with Jims views does not equate to being an islamophobe or to being a fucking disgrace. It just means that I take exception to his relentless nonsense, and his accusations of antisemitism against those who dare to disagree with him.
I think Keith and Teribus are wasting their time putting facts here, Jim is not interested in facts. He cannot see beyond his hatred. To oppose his views is not bigotry, it is essential or no reasoned debate will ever occur. It would be grand if this subject could be discussed without the usual name calling and drivel. That will not happen as long as There is support for this over the top   Fanatasism continues.
I firmly believe that the Palestinian people deserve better both from Israel, and from their own leaders. people who share Jims views will sully that discussion at every turn.
if you wish to support his views Steve. That is your affair, but I cannot support that kind of anti Israel obsession, on any grounds.