BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:00 AM

Guest, please read the link on Jim's last post. It's not just a small group of people on here who condemn Israeli state action.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:20 AM

Is that the side of the "the extreme right-wing politics of the regime that has systematically turned Israel into an oppressive, aggressive and extremely dangerous terrorist state"

No.
I have put Israel's case as all you comrades have put the opposite case.
No fair minded person could object to both sides being heard.

Who says they are "fake" other than you?
Example,
"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985."

What he really said,

"We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs."
Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground; and Karsh, Efraim (2000), Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians'; this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in Morris, Benny (1987), The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947–1949, Cambridge University Press, p. 25.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:27 AM

"Guest, please read the link on Jim's last post. It's not just a small group of people on here who condemn Israeli state action."

First off, I don't stoop to reading his bile.

Secondly, one can find anything on the internet to support whatever take you have on an issue. I can post plenty of links that show that his views, and those of his supporters, are shared by neo Nazis and white supremacists.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:54 AM

"Jim puts up over the top rants. "
Stop waffling and answer the points
If tey are what you claim they are, they are easily exposisable as such by facts
You have put up none - just in and out, in and out - just like the tide.
Show where they are wrong
At least you might have the courtesy to show where the Holocaust survivors are wrong and not "ranters"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:57 AM

"First off, I don't stoop to reading his bile."
That says what needs to be said - 300+ Holocaust survivers Condem Israel's behavior as "massacres" = bile
As I said - Antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:07 AM

You just don,t get it, do you Jim ? You have made yet another accusation of antisemetism where none exists!    I disagree with the holocaust survivors   I have not accused them of ranting. as long as people like you rant and make baseless accusations of antisemitism, there will never be any civil discussion on this issue. people holding your views are a huge part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:28 AM

"You just don,t get it, do you Jim ? You have made yet another accusation of antisemetism where none exists!    "
You don't get it - unless you can substantiate your claims rather than nipping in and then pissing off when the goin gets tough, you will continue to be regarded as the troll you are.
Answer the points you disagree with - what are you, a man or an airbed?.

"I have put Israel's case as all you comrades have put the opposite case."
"We didn't do it" isn't a case - it's a denial
If you are saying that is the sum total of Israel's "case" - fair enough - it's all you have offered.
"What he really said,"
What he also said was:
"I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out."
Contradiction or confession or what - nobody but you has ever suggested it was a fake.
If they have - who has?
"First off, I don't stoop to reading his bile."

This is the "bile" you refuse to read from Israeli newspaper Haaretz:
Jim Carroll
Holocaust Survivors Condemn Israel for 'Gaza Massacre,' Call for Boycott
In response to Elie Wiesel advertisement comparing Hamas to Nazis, 327 Jewish Holocaust survivors and descendants publish New York Times ad accusing Israel of 'ongoing massacre of the Palestinian people.'

Haaretz Aug 23, 2014 5:24 PM
Hundreds of Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors have signed a letter, published as an advertisement in Saturday's New York Times, condemning "the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza" and calling for a complete boycott of Israel.
According to the letter, the condemnation was prompted by an advertisement written by Elie Wiesel and published in major news outlets worldwide, accusing Hamas of "child sacrifice" and comparing the group to the Nazis.
The letter, signed by 327 Jewish Holocaust survivors and descendants of survivors and sponsored by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, accuses Wiesel of "abuse of history" in order to justify Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip:
"…we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water."
The letter also blames the United States of aiding Israel in its Gaza operation, and the West in general of protecting Israel from condemnation.
"Genocide begins with the silence of the world," the letter reads.
The letter ends with a call to bring the blockade of Gaza to an immediate end, and for a full boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!," the letter concludes.
Full text of letter:
"Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza
"As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine. We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world.
"We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia.
"Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.
"We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!"
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.612072

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:33 AM

You just don,t get it, do you Jim ?

Oh he get's it alright, the only thing he doesn't get is that some of us aren't fooled by where he's coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:42 AM

Here we go with the troll accusation.. Another ridiculous claim!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 09:50 AM

I can post plenty of links that show that his views, and those of his supporters, are shared by neo Nazis and white supremacists.

Uh hunh. Guess you've never been schooled in logical fallicies, eh Bearded Fred?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM

The only logical fallacy here is your post.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:11 AM

Ah, just look at the quality of the last three Guest posts. The Guest who claims that he remains anonymous because he'd rather like us to focus more on the content of his posts rather than the poster. Go on, read them. He's a good laugh, isn't he?

HiLo, you have attacked name-calling yet again, yet defended Teribus as the supplier of facts while remaining silent on my challenge to you about his name-calling. By any measure, he is one of the worst and most persistent offenders here. Is name-calling by people you agree with acceptable name-calling, then? If I were you, I'd spend a bit more time reviewing my posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:13 AM

That would be his last four posts now. Dammit, I've lost count. Don't you just hang on every word of his "content?" :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:25 AM

I have merely pointed out that there are people posting here who supply facts, facts which Jim ignores. If you wish to"defend" Jims hateful rants, that is, as I said, Your business.
As for "striking a balance here", how, tell me, do you strike a balance with Jim Carroll ?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:31 AM

Guest, how can you condemn someone if you are not prepared to at least read what they post.
Jim provided a link LINK that was pertinent to the thread.

These are not Jim's words they are the words of 327 survivors (or descendants of) of the holocaust created by Nazi Germany, are you to condemn them too?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:38 AM

"I have merely pointed out that there are people posting here who supply facts, facts which Jim ignores"
What facts?
"Another ridiculous claim!"
Are you suggesting that the Holcaust Survivors statement was a fake?
Please break the habit of a lifetime and reply
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:44 AM

Have I suggested anywhere that the holocaust survivor comments were fake ? No, I have not. Another bit of your nonsense.
Reply, What am I to reply to Jim..you cannot describe red to the colour blind !

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:48 AM

Have I suggested that my post was directed to you and not Guest?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:48 AM

Jim requires no defending by me. If I say I agree with what he says on particular topics, that is not defending. He does not defend me either and I wouldn't expect him to, neither do we exchange messages of support or of anything at all for that matter. The point I made is that he supplies abundant information and links, which you are at liberty to counter if you wish. Your colleagues Teribus, Keith and akenaton, not to speak of our anonymous Guest (who once called me a Jew-hater) are far less productive of facts on this topic than Jim and they all name-call. I don't think you have any cause to complain.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:58 AM

I have been called antisemetic, a fucking disgrace, an islamophobe, a fantasist and worse, and you don't think I have cause to complain. None of the people you mention are my colleagues, they just happen to disagree with Jim. As for Akenaton, he has not posted much to this thread, so I don't know why you mention him. Anonymous guests who disagree with Jim are not my allies either.
I know Jim requires no defending by you... and of course you agree with him on somethings, that is clear from your posts here Steve. I am simply stating, at the risk of being called a dweller in fantasyland, that the Israel I know bears no resemblance to the Israel Jim describes. Again, if you agree with his views, that is your conclusion based on what evidence he has supplied. I do not agree with him because he is irrational in his obsession, there is a name for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:58 AM

At least one person was wounded in a stabbing attack at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem on Saturday afternoon.

The condition of the victim was not immediately clear.

Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 11:01 AM

Ah, just look at the quality of the last three Guest posts. The Guest who claims that he remains anonymous because he'd rather like us to focus more on the content of his posts rather than the poster. Go on, read them. He's a good laugh, isn't he?

QED!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 11:23 AM

Proverb for Mudcatters


Too many guests spoil the thread

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 11:42 AM

"I have been called antisemetic, a fucking disgrace, "
Then respond to what the Holocaust survivors say - respond to the evidence put up over and over again
If you do not, you are defending the Israeli regime and not The Jewish people.
The Israelis now have a knee-jerk reaction of dismissing every criticism as being "Antisemitic - which is an antisemitic claim by definition.
I'm not sure if you are one of those who has made the accusation against me or those who agree with me - but that is Antisemitic - it is Antisemitic by definition to associate The Jewish people as a whole with the actions of the Israeli state - if that is what yopu have done, that is what you are.
To take only the word of Isreali right wing politicians and deliberately ignore what Jews who criticise what those politicians do is anti-Semitic - especially when a large number of them are either Holocaust survivors or their relatives.
By doing so, you are refusing to accept the lessons of The Holocaust.
The first time I heard the term "never again, in relation to what was happening to The Palestinians not to anybody, was from the mother of someone I was once to marry" - she and a few of her family survived the camps and had learned the lesson.
You want to sling your accusations about - get used to having them slug back at you - I have.
I'll put this up again because it represents everything I have believed about what's happening in Israel today.
You want to dispute it, feel free; you want to ignore it - shame on you and everybody like you.
It has been a cowardly trait of people like Bearded Bruce to skulkk behind the six million who died in the camps - at least have the common deceny to read and respond to what they say.
That goes for every last three/four, however many of you there are.
Full text of letter:
"Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza
"As Jewish survivors and descendants of survivors and victims of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine. We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world.
"We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia.
"Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel's abuse of our history in these pages to justify the unjustifiable: Israel's wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of more than 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.
"We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. "Never again" must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 11:54 AM

When I read the title of the Italian daily La Repubblica, "Gaza, more than 300 Holocaust survivors against Israel", I thought, wow!

Sorry, the survivors were not "more than 300, not even "300". There were 20. The others were children or grandchildren or distant relatives of survivors.

Yet, the story has swept the media all over the world. Who is behind the campaign which appeared in a full page ad in the New York Times? Do they believe Jews are supposed to continue to be victims?

The initiative was sponsored by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, an organization openly hostile to Israel.

Hajo Meyer, the first signatory on the list, is a well-known Dutch militant who just passed away, the author of a book called "The End of Judaism", in which he explains, like a student of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, that Zionism and Judaism are incompatible. Meyer compares Israel to Nazi Germany ("there are many similarities", he wrote). Meyer did not hesitate to appear on Iranian television, Press TV, the voice of the ayatollahs in the world, the same people who condemn Israel to disappear from the map.


What's better than the vulgarization of the Holocaust by a grandchld of survivors who directs a center of "Middle East Studies"?
The appeal is signed by Hedy Epstein, one of the most famous faces of the Freedom flottillas launched in solidarity with Hamas. She even flew to Cairo last month to participate in the demonstrations against Israel. She has recently embarked on a hunger strike for Gaza. Epstein is part of the Free Gaza Movement, whose founder Greta Berlin said: "The Zionists organized the concentration camps to kill millions of innocent Jews".

Meet the "Holocaust Survivors Against Israel"

Note the last line in the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:03 PM

Too many guests spoil the thread

I'd say it's those who, instead of making constructive contributions, make comments about other posters. But that's just MHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:04 PM

Well, HiLo, I think I win hands down in any competition with you with regard to having been called names, but I'm not that bothered. I decided a while ago to try to avoid calling people names. Note that you are HiLo and that Mr Woodcock is Teribus and that Keith is Keith and that akenaton is akenaton in my lexicon (I do believe that I called him a twit the other day - cor, strike me down! - and I call the excruciatingly unwelcome Guest a coward. I'll burn in hell, eh?) Even Joe Offer calls me names. What I've found, oddly, is that I have an infinitely greater capacity for annoying people by keeping cool and not calling people names. I can't explain that, but it works for me! Jim name-calling is his business. I'm not my comrade's keeper! (Sorry, Jim!)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:08 PM

This struck me particularly from above article

"right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia"

Can anyone provide details of how such insignia appear? Any illustrations?

≈M≈

Oh, but I'm finding all this so profoundly depressing. None of all this is the way we meant it to be all those years ago. We would have laughed to scorn any suggestion that Likud, the unspeakable Begin's party, could ever become the more or less perpetual majority party. I could literally cry.

I expect Jim will come up with his 'lip·service' parrot-cry yet again: tho what grounds he has ever imagined he had for such gross impertinence, or what satisfaction it ever brought him, are things I have never contrived to make out.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:08 PM

I think you need to read Jim's post just after "full text of letter". Oops, sorry, I forgot that you don't read Jim's posts. You seem to have just proved it.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:15 PM

Well, Michael, I'm a lot more sympathetic to ordinary Israeli people than it may sometimes appear from my posts (though I've never once criticised them). Your sentiments are also mine. There will be a lot we disagree with apropos of what goes on in that benighted part of the world, but you may agree that there will never be peace while the Likud philosophy prevails.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:16 PM

Well, Steve, as you say it is not a competition. My objection to the name calling has nothing to do with me being thin skinned, it has to do with the total irrationality of it. Because I disagree with Jim, I am accused of all sorts of evil things. I do not hold you or anyone else responsible for Jims assnine accusations. However, It seems to me that there are those posting here who seem to think that this type of name calling response is an actual form of debate.
It does make you half agree with "guest" postings. Why would someone turn themselves into a target for that kind of abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:20 PM

I did read it, Steve. That is precisely the bit I quoted & queried. No idea what you are on about this time. Sorry. Really no idea quite what you meant:-

but why were you being so sarcastically rude? Thought you had just proclaimed that you, like me in general, find it best to eschew such a tone.

Regards: ≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:24 PM

Tho it appears from your crossposted next post, addressed to me, Steve, that it wasn't me whom you were addressing last time after all. Oh dear. Think I'll just come back after Liverpool v W Ham which is about to kick off.

Down with Likud!

CU·later

Mebbe

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:27 PM

It doesn't make me agree. The most civil forum I'm on is one on which everyone's real name is in their profile, which all logged-in members can read. You're allowed a pseudonym if you don't want to get googled, but it's surprising how many people don't bother with one. Crucially, and mods are you listening, your moniker is unique, there are no "guests" and you don't get to post unless you're registered and logged in. There is occasional bad temper but the need for moderation is rare. The Guest in this thread posts illiberal, bigoted nonsense BECAUSE he can hide behind his anonymity. You wouldn't imagine a logged-in member to expect to get away with calling someone a Jew-hater, would you? It isn't even possible to distinguish one guest's posting history from another. Ridiculous. His constant "explanation" for his anonymity is just a lie. Don't be fooled. May I just call him another name? He's a charlatan, and I think you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:29 PM

To confirm, I was addressing the Guest, not Michael. And my last one was to HiLo.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 12:54 PM

I do agree about the guests Steve. Unfortunately,guests are not alone in this name calling business! There are several regular posters who excell T it and it seems, in many cases that it is their only form of response, and it. Is ugly name calling, crude and offensive at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:24 PM

Jim,
Are you suggesting that the Holcaust Survivors statement was a fake?

Of course not, but what is your point?
There are many people who strongly support one side or the other, but quoting them is not evidence for one side or the other.
They are expressing opinions not evidence.

Alvin H. Rosenfeld (professor of English and Jewish Studies and director of Institute for the Study of Contemporary Antisemitism at Indiana University.) says they are a minority.

"Most Holocaust survivors, like most Jews, are Zionists and are strongly devoted to the welfare of the State of Israel. The IJSN/IJAN group is exceptional in its fierce opposition to Israel and is hardly representative. That fact, however, did not keep the BBC from quickly publishing a story with the title "Holocaust survivors condemn Israel." The impression conveyed is seriously misleading."

He says,
"What makes the IJSN statement noteworthy, therefore, is not the litany of emotionally-charged accusations against Israel but the identities of those making these accusations. They present themselves as "Survivors," "Children of survivors," "Grandchildren of survivors," "Great-grandchildren of survivors," and "Other relatives of survivors."
They total 327 people."

"If we take their self-descriptions at face value, some (a small number) had been in the Nazi ghettos and camps or claim to have been resistance fighters. Others had been children spirited out of Europe on the Kindertransports or were hidden by Christians during the war. Some say they are "cousins of survivors," or "friends of survivors," or "relatives of victims," or "relatives of many victims," or the "spouse of a hidden child," or grandchildren and great-grandchildren of "refugees." One identifies herself as "the great niece of an uncle who shot himself"; another as a "3rd cousin of Ann [sic] Frank and grand-daughter of NON-survivors."
http://forward.com/opinion/israel/204790/moral-emptiness-of-holocaust-survivors-who-took-on/



So, their opinions are just opinions, not evidence against Israel, and
few of them are really "survivors" at all.
http://forward.com/opinion/israel/204790/moral-emptiness-of-holocaust-survivors-who-took-on/

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:37 PM

So, their opinions are just opinions, not evidence

As are your's and Bearded Fred's, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:37 PM

Too many guests spoil the thread

I'd say it's those who, instead of making constructive contributions, make comments about other posters. But that's just MHO.

I might also add that it is those who complain, repetitively, about the forum rules. Again IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:41 PM

So the Holocaust Survivors don't deserve an answer ?
"says they are a minority.
So minorities don't deserve an answer either?
"
"Most Holocaust survivors, like most Jews, are Zionists and are strongly devoted to the welfare of the State of Israel."
Who is ****** suggesting we aren't or the Holocaust survivors aren't?
They and we are arguing that the various regimes have thrown away the dream of Israel and turned it into an oppressive state.
And all you can produce if pro-Isreali propaganda denigrating those survivors and their relatives
Try answering the points they mad - that would be the honest thing to do instead of smearing them as the Israelis have
You are every bit as disgusting as they are.
Wonder what Mike is making of all this?
Whoops - he seems to be supporting it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:47 PM

So, their opinions are just opinions, not evidence
As are your's and Bearded Fred's, Professor.

Yes. Also yours and Jim's.

So the Holocaust Survivors don't deserve an answer ?

The answer is that they are entitled to their opinion, which some share and some do not.
Either way it is not evidence for or against.
What is the point of posting anyone's unsubstantiated claims and accusations?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:48 PM

"imagine a logged-in member to expect to get away with calling someone a Jew-hater"

Have you spotted any Islamophobes today, Shaw?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 01:55 PM

"The answer is that they are entitled to their opinion"
They deserve having their points addressed an do we all.
Your response is still "Israel didn't do it"
By the way - the Neo Nazi insignia refers to logos on Tee shirts.
Similar accusations were made by the Former Mossad lewader who appeared in The Gatekeepers
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:01 PM

You'll have to follow this one up I haven't teh time nor the inclination
Haaretz
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:04 PM

They deserve having their points addressed an do we all.

What points?
All I see is unsubstantiated claims accusations. None were anywhere near Gaza.
Please identify any actual point you would like me to address.

Your response is still "Israel didn't do it"

My response has been to put Israel's side of the story, that it acted within International Law against war criminal terrorists who flouted it, thereby placing their own civilians in harms way to protect their fighters.

No evidence has been put forward by anyone to contradict any of that.
Will anyone produce something now?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:09 PM

Jim,
You'll have to follow this one up I haven't teh time nor the inclination

All it says is,
Right-wing Demonstrators in Tel Aviv Wore neo-Nazi Shirts
Not only did the demonstrators beat leftists, they wore 'Good night left side' T-shirts, photographs show.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.605234

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:13 PM

'Good night left side' is said to be a neo-nazi slogan.
"Insignia" is not an issue, as you just conceded Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:21 PM

The photo Haaretz is referring to was supplied by an extremist left wing (the usual Marxist-Leninist bores) Occupy Judaism. There are two unidentified individuals in the photo. They don't show what the caption shows, namely attacks on anyone let alone (extreme) left "activists". They are cleverly cut off, showing only a part of the situation. This is image manipulation, so it casts doubts about the authenticity of the images and the objectives of those who publish them.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:47 PM

"we are arguing that the various regimes have thrown away the dream of Israel and turned it into an oppressive state." ---

Yes, Jim; that is what is so disappointing
.....

"Wonder what Mike is making of all this?"---

Well, I've just told you ...
.,,.,.

"Whoops - he seems to be supporting it."---

Whoops! No he bloody doesn't. How the hell do you possibly make that out, Jim? You make a point of refusing to listen, or of impugning my integrity & sincerity every time I say what I really think; stuffing your fingers in your ears & shrieking 'lipservice' like a bloody parrot; & I am getting fucking pissed off with it - you should be fucking well ashamed

(& you know how often I sue that sort of locution)---

but I don't expect you are

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 02:55 PM

Steve -- Thanks for clarifying above that it wasn't me you meant. Sorry for my thus mistakenly truculent response. This is a somewhat heating-up sort of thread, leading to

"...in this upshot purposes mistook
Fall'n on the inventors' heads"
          Hamlet, Act V