BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 03:25 PM

"The photo Haaretz is referring to was supplied by an extremist left wing (the usual Marxist-Leninist bores) "
Is there no lengths you people wil go in order to smear opponents of this right wing regime - where is your proof that who took this photo or what he is - the Journalist, Ofer Adaret is a tried and trusted israeli Journalist who regularly writes in Haaretz.
The same story appears elsewhere anyway - I chose Haaretz forgetting it was a Marxist- Leninist rag
You really are the pits
"Insignia" is not an issue, as you just conceded Jim."
I didn't bring it up - Mike did, but but Israeli youth wearing Neo Nazi insignia is very much an issue here and elsewhere - it confirms everything my Manchester Jewish friends shocked we with backi in the sixties - and it confirms what the ex head of Mossad said in The Gatekeepers..
I've been thinking about your scummy dismissal of the Survivors and their friends and families.
To be an actual survivor one would have to be around 75 years of age - to have been an adult during the Holocaust you would have to be approaching 90 - on yours, and Israel's reckoning The Holocaust no longer has a voice in Israel because but for a few, those that were there are now dead (sort of like your dead/living historians argument.
That's how disgustingly low you people have sunk to in defending these mass murderers.
Answer their points, answer the evidence you have been given, from Jewish a historian whose accounts of massacres have never been challenged by you, ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO WALK AWAY FROM YOUR CLAIM THAT MORRIS'S EVIDENCE HAS BEEN CHALLENGED? - SUPPOSE YOU ARE and all the eye witnesses and investigators who have challenged every claim you have ever made.
Some people have thrown a wobbler at being accused of Antisemitism, despite the fact that they have all, at one time or another, accused critics of the Israeli Terrorist regime of the same.
Running concurrently with this is a thread on which at least one vociferous defender of Israel here is arguing on behalf of making asylum seekers wear identifying armbands, which have been compared to the Jewish, yellow stars', and the siting of red plaques on their homes, both of which have exposed them to racist abuse and actual attacks and have now been abandoned due to nationwide protest.
The star of this disgusting argument is putting forward and equally vociferous defence hear, his main claim being that if you stop in a 5* Hotel in Britain you would be subject to the same demand, that you would have to wear an armband.
I make no apologies for describing the level of some of this discussion as being "Antisemitic" - if it goose-steps - it is what it appears to be.
I'm off -not a bad night on Tele - bit of light relief from this squalidness.
Jim Carroll
Just spotted your reply Mike - sorry if I misjuged your part in this - multi-tasking again

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 04:00 PM

Not a threat, not shaming the Jewish people
https://jewishphilosophyplace.wordpress.com/2014/07/14/black-shirt-jewish-neo-nazis-israel-2014-good-night-left-side/
The Survivors have every right to be ashamed and angry at what Israel has become
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 04:29 PM

Well, HiLo, you may disapprove of Jim's form of response but you really can't mean him when you say "only form of response". Jim responds largely by tightly and effectively arguing his corner in considerable detail and he provides more links than anyone else. You may not respect his viewpoint but you've got to be in awe of his thoroughness.

As for you, Guest-coward, I do not complain about the forum rules. I've said about ten times more often than anyone else here that this is not my gig. What I do is comment on the lack of forum rules. I hope that my suggestion of unique monikers and logged-in posters only will be seen as a helpful notion in trying to clear this place of the kind of abuse and bigotry that cowardly and dishonest people like you infect it with.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 04:55 PM

No Steve, I am in no way in awe of his thoroughness,. He links only to those things which support his views, that is called cherry picking. see his comments on holocaust survivors.. He mentions no other views, especially the views of Other students of the holocaust. Nor does he mention who these "survivors are . Very one sided, just a blatant statement about the condemnation of Israel by these people as representing all holocaust survivors.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:01 PM

Jim,
I didn't bring it up - Mike did, but but Israeli youth wearing Neo Nazi insignia is very much an issue here and elsewhere

You know that Nazi insignia has not been worn by any Israeli youth.
You are being dishonest Jim.
Someone had a T shirt with the logo, 'Good night left side'
That is the whole story.

Answer their points,

What points? All I see is claims and accusations, all unsubstantiated.

I've been thinking about your scummy dismissal of the Survivors and their friends and families

I have not dismissed them.
They are entitled to their opinion, which is shared by many but not all. What is your point?

answer the evidence you have been given, from Jewish a historian whose accounts of massacres have never been challenged by you,

I have given the Israeli side of the story on Gaza and Beirut.
What other so called massacres or atrocities do you want me to address next?

ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO WALK AWAY FROM YOUR CLAIM THAT MORRIS'S EVIDENCE HAS BEEN CHALLENGED?

If you think that all historians agree with him you are deluded.

5* Hotel in Britain you would be subject to the same demand,

I am not aware of any UK hotels offering all inclusive stays, but in foreign resorts many do and rely on wristbands (NOT armbands.) I have stayed in eight in recent years.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:18 PM

Jim, some Benny Morris quotes for you.
I can also list some of the many historians who refute his work.

Morris summarized his current political views of the Arab-Israeli conflict in the Irish Times (and other publications):

"There was no Zionist 'plan' or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of 'ethnic cleansing'" and "the demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies—much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two."

"You have to put things in proportion. These are small war crimes. All told, if we take all the massacres and all the executions of 1948, we come to about 800 who were killed. In comparison to the massacres that were perpetrated in Bosnia, that's peanuts. In comparison to the massacres the Russians perpetrated against the Germans at Stalingrad, that's chicken feed. When you take into account that there was a bloody civil war here and that we lost an entire 1 percent of the population, you find that we behaved very well."

In the Haaretz interview, he said:
"There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes."

"True, I always voted Labor or Meretz or Sheli and in 1988 I refused to serve in the territories and was jailed for it, but I always doubted the intentions of the Palestinians. The events of Camp David and what followed in their wake turned the doubt into certainty. When the Palestinians rejected the proposal of [prime minister Ehud] Barak in July 2000 and the Clinton proposal in December 2000, I understood that they are unwilling to accept the two-state solution. They want it all: Lod and Acre and Jaffa."

"The bombing of the buses and restaurants really shook me. They made me understand the depth of the hatred for us. They made me understand that the Palestinian, Arab and Muslim hostility toward Jewish existence here is taking us to the brink of destruction.... Palestinian society is a very sick society. It should be treated the way we treat individuals who are serial killers. Maybe over the years the establishment of a Palestinian state will help in the healing process. But in the meantime, until the medicine is found, they have to be contained so that they will not succeed in murdering us.... Something like a cage has to be built for them. I know that sounds terrible. It is really cruel. But there is no choice. There is a wild animal there that has to be locked up in one way or another."

"We are the greater victims in the course of history and we are also the greater potential victim. Even though we are oppressing the Palestinians, we are the weaker side here. We are a small minority in a large sea of hostile Arabs who want to eliminate us. So it's possible than [sic] when their desire is realized, everyone will understand what I am saying to you now. Everyone will understand we are the true victims. But by then it will be too late."

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 05:50 PM

"There was no Zionist 'plan' or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of 'ethnic cleansing'" and "the demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies—much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies. And there is a connection between the two."

Amen brother Benny.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:16 PM

The trouble, HiLo, is that you're biased. That's fine. So am I. There comes a time when you have to look at your opponents' viewpoints to see whether they've supported them. I note that you you do not criticise our vacuous Guest's viewpoints, which are generally either unsupported or are supported by Zionist sources only. Jim goes to considerable lengths to support his arguments. It's up to you to pick over his points and links and demolish them if you don't like them. That's what I do with Keith when I can be arsed. I demolished him over his falsehoods with regard to Geoffrey Wheatcroft. It was easy because you can't erase your lies on this website. If you don't agree with Jim it's down to you, if you can be arsed, to pick him apart. You don't do that. You just complain because you don't agree. Not good enough. So there's a challenge for you. Work as hard as Jim and you might get somewhere. Simply whine about name-calling and you just won't. Why not? Because your own mates here do it all the time, you don't bollock them, and we can all see that.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:26 PM

These are small war crimes. [but war crimes nonetheless]

Even though we are oppressing the Palestinians

Amen, brother Benny.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:30 PM

Simply whine about name-calling and you just won't.

Kind of like constantly whining about the house rules eh! Kettle meet pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:34 PM

The trouble, HiLo, is that you're biased.

Do you think that might be because HiLo lived there and knows the reality of the place first hand unlike those who just surf anti Israel websites for their information?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:40 PM

Care to list those anti-Israel websites, if you're so sure about them? Thought not! Talk is so easy...

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 06:41 PM

First of all Steve, I have no "mates" here. And I am not biased, I have no problem with legitimate criticism of Israel.    Why would anyone attempt to "pick apart" his kind of nonsense Jim hurls up here. . If you cannot see what is obvious in his stance, that is not my concern. your observation about those arguments supported only by zionists viewpoints don,t seem to extend to anti Israel viewpoints . Work as hard as Jim, Jim only works, if you wish to go fishing for support of one sided views. I am critical of Jim , not because of his viewpoint, but because he has no viewpoint. He has only one objective, to vilify Israel. How does one reason with that.
As for others who disagree with him, and there are many, that is their business. but it does not equate to them being my mates. so let us be clear about that. are all those who agree with Jim your mates. You need to get off that "you lot" hobby horse Steve!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 07:26 PM

Keith
Benny Morris listed 27 massacres - you said there were no massacres - you said that his claims had been disputed - you lied.
You said that there have never been any massacres - ever - you lied
You have denigrated the Holocaust survivors and their families and associates.
You have supported the Israeli regime rather than the Jewish people.
You have denigrated eye-witnesses to the Sabra/Shatila massacre in order to deny what is an established fact - that the Israelis facilitated the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees on the pretence that they were searching for fighters and arms - neither were ever found.
Youu claimed that no massacres of prisoners took place after the Six Days war yet that fact is still available for viewing on the 'Storyville' film which you claim to have watched - you lied.
You have claimed that David Ben Gurion's statement was a "fake" after having accepted it and claimed he meant something else - you lied twice.
You have refused to acknowledge that Israel has not only attempted to avoid being tried for war crimes but she has attempted to have the International Criminal Court Closed down in order to do so.
You said that you weren't in favour of killing hostages yet you are now basing the support of 2015 massacres on just that - killing hostages.
You have been given reams of evidence implicating Israel in war crimes and massacres, yet you claim there is none - you are lying.
You are now defending the enforced wearing of armbands by asylum seekers, practice that has been compared to the enforced wearing of Yellow Stars by Jews - which makes you what you are.
Mike says he is "disappointed" which makes him what he is.
I was "disappointed" when my sister forgot to send me a birthday card.   
What a sad, squalid bunch you all are, without exception.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:09 PM

Steve,
I demolished him over his falsehoods with regard to Geoffrey Wheatcroft.

Not true. I had already quoted him in full, and later gave a partial quote. There was no deception and your attempted "demolition" fell flat.

Jim,
Benny Morris listed 27 massacres -

Do you mean in 1948 Jim?
This is what he really says about it.

"When you take into account that there was a bloody civil war here and that we lost an entire 1 percent of the population, you find that we behaved very well."

"There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes."

" Compared to the wars of other nations, the number of these criminal acts is low. But it is true that if you compare this to the behavior of the Israeli army in other wars, there were more black deeds in 1948. There were people who lost control of their inhibitions. There were people who came out of the death camps in Europe and this stuck in their minds. They wanted to take revenge on the goyim [non-Jews]. There were men who fought for an entire year because the Arabs forced them to fight. They felt they were coerced into war, and they wanted to avenge the deaths of their comrades in arms. Every nation has stains on its history. And the black deeds in this war are one of the stains on our history. "

"One also should remember that we did not win easily, and to lose 1 percent of the population (around 5,800 killed on the Israeli side) is a very high percentage. Numbers like these would be intolerable in a normal society."

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:23 PM

Jim,
that the Israelis facilitated the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees on the pretence that they were searching for fighters and arms - neither were ever found.

Israel denies even knowing about the massacre until it started. They then acted to end it.

There most certainly were fighters and arms in the camp and I will happily provide proof.

You have claimed that David Ben Gurion's statement was a "fake" after having accepted it and claimed he meant something else - you lied twice

Not rue Jim.
I said that one of your quotes was faked, and the other probably was.
In any case, that one even if genuine gives the Arab view not his own.

You have refused to acknowledge that Israel has not only attempted to avoid being tried for war crimes but she has attempted to have the International Criminal Court Closed down in order to do so.

It is not true that Israel "has attempted to have the International Criminal Court Closed down"
They have no power to do such a thing.
They have been co-operating with ICC not trying to destroy it.

You said that you weren't in favour of killing hostages

Made up Jim.
No-one is in favour of killing hostages, but I have made no statement that it is never justified.

You have been given reams of evidence implicating Israel in war crimes and massacres, yet you claim there is none - you are lying.

No such evidence has been provided.
Now would be a good time.
Give your most incriminating fact.

You are now defending the enforced wearing of armbands by asylum seekers,

Not true.
I just pointed out that some means of identifying those entitled to free food was required, and that wristbands were the usual way of doing that, with clear advantages over other means of ID.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:46 PM

Well HiLo, I am very glad to see you distancing yourselves from Keith, Teribus, akenaton and the squalid Guest-coward. Your star is in the ascendancy, for sure. As for me, I speak only for myself and I'll criticise my ostensible allies if and when. I've done that with Musket several times and he's done it to me and we both take it like men (or women). Likewise, Dave. Even Jim has been known to give me (what we called on Radcliffe Parks Department) a small bollocking. And I he. We're honest brokers on the whole and we have rhino hides.

Now you lived in Israel for a while. Good. Unfortunately, there are people in the UK who have lived here all their lives yet who appear to be pig-ignorant about politics and society. Why, some of them even vote UKIP. I'm afraid that living there isn't much of a qualification for knowing everything about the place. After all, so many Israeli citizens vote Likud, a strategy that will serve only to keep them in fear and insecurity forever. So living there does not necessarily equate with superior inside knowledge. Two of my uncles went to live for many years in Rhodesia and they both kept "boys" in shacks at the bottom of their gardens. The "boys'" families were basically slaves. You should have heard their justifications for that. When they were finally forced back to the UK they told us that it was what the blacks wanted and that there was no other way to run the place and that we simply didn't understand because we'd never been there. Ring any bells? Perhaps, in the words of Brian Clough, we can discuss this for twenty minutes or so before agreeing that I'm right. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 08:52 PM

And Keith, you made yourself a laughing stock over the Wheatcroft affair. You lied and twisted and wriggled and we all laughed our bollocks off. Even Teribus struggled with it. Please don't make me dig all that up again. Jaysus, I'm tempted...

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 16 - 10:51 PM

Not true Steve.
You accused me of partial quoting, when I had already quoted the relevant passage in full.
There was no deception as you tried to claim. Everyone knew what was in it because I had posted it already.

You had no case.

See how instead of discussing the current subject, Steve like Jim tries to slander me with misrepresentations of long ago threads.

Anything to say about Mid East conflict Steve, or are you just going to make accusations from the past about me personally instead?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 12:34 AM

Jim: Not sure why I am bothering to engage with you yet again, as you appear to me to be of all my online acquaintance the prime exemplar of the "Mind·made·up·please·do·not·confuse·with·facts" syndrome. But there are nevertheless many things I do respect about you; so will simply ask, in mild tones:-

If "disappointed" is too mild a term to satisfy you as to my feeling abut how Israel has turned out after all our youthful labours and hopes for it, so you lump me in your blanket denunciation of all who have the temerity to differ with the opinions of the egregiously impeccably-opinioned J Carroll, what word would you prefer or suggest instead?

Steve: Agree with you about many things too; but can't make out where you are coming from in associating yourself with the scaredikatz who denounce UKIP as being indistinguishable from the NF & BNP & such when it is a respectable party whose admirable aim is to get us out of the stinking EU which we should never have joined in the first place only pathetic·bleeding·Heath wanted his vile name to go down in history. I voted for UKIP & shall again [if I live till the next election -- 84 this year!]. & what do you want to make of it, eh!? Bloody impertinence, thus denouncing the way I exercise my own free vote! Surprised at you!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 01:11 AM

Jim: Sorry to hear about the birthday card. Hope your sister apologised when you pointed it out

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 01:13 AM

I did not suggest that I knew all there is to know about Israel simply because I had lived there. But I do know enough to state that it is not the country that Jim Carroll describes.
There are many people in Israel who are critical of the government, there are many Jews outside Israel who are also very disturbed by the state of affairs in Israel . I do agree with you about Likud, they will not move the country any nearer to peace. But rhetoric like Jims is not helpful. It has the opposit effect and drives people of reason crazy.
It is possible, believe it or not, that Jim Carroll is wrong! I, for one, do not believe in his infallibility!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 04:29 AM

Mike, I think we should copy the last paragraph of your 12:34AM post over to the hate speech thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 05:13 AM

"Mind·made·up·please·do·not·confuse·with·facts" "
As with your friends Mike, you are extremely welcome to challenge any of the facts I have put up - I dearly wish would would.
The fact that you or they have never even attempted to do so is a pretty strong confirmation that they are what I believe them to be - facts.
"Do you mean in 1948 Jim?"
You have denied over and over again that there have ever been massacres "no massacres", "what massacres" - when I put Morris's statement up you said he had been disputed - not another wriggle after so many, surely?
Or maybe you were only defending "three points".
He stated that Israel carried out 27 massacres - that is twenty seven more than "none".
Maybe "behaving well" to some people - not where I was brought up.
You stated that Morris's claims had been disputed - they haven't, you lied.
Odd though that you should be now hiding behind a single statement of a "disputed" historian - or maybe not!!
Expulsion not a war crime - the refusal to allow millions of people to return to their homes following a war goes beyond a war crime and is a crime against humanity.
The most recent expulsions/expansionism/spread of settlements/evictions of Palestinians - Bedouins included, is what makes what is happening ethnic cleansing.
"Not rue Jim.
I said that one of your quotes was faked, and the other probably was."
Do you really want me to dig our all your postings claiming Ben Gurion was "only putting the Arab point of view when he admitted stealing their land" - surely not - remember the not digging when you're in a hole" proverb.   
Your case for the massacres is that Israel carried them out (or "didn't") because they were harbouring fighters - that is supporting killing hostages - if you're not, you should vebe condemning them.
"Give your most incriminating fact."
You've had all the facts, over and over again - but their rrefusal to stand trial and to bring the International crimes court crashing in flames is fairly incriminating - you have yet to address the consequences of that.
"I just pointed out that some means of identifying those entitled to free food was required,"
That is defending something that has been compared to the wearing of yellow stars, was compulsory indoors and out, has brought about racist abuse and has now been exposed for what it is and abandoned - you lied about that as you have here - seems an inbuilt trait.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 05:43 AM

Jim, massacres were committed by both sides in 1948.
I acknowledge now and have never denied that some Jews committed vile crimes at that time.
Morris

You claim recent massacres and atrocities.
Israel denies them, and no unequivocal evidence for them has been provided.

Do not just deny that without reminding us what it is.

You keep demanding that we respond to the work of Benny Morris.

He says,
"There was no Zionist 'plan' or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of 'ethnic cleansing'" and "the demonisation of Israel is largely based on lies—much as the demonisation of the Jews during the past 2,000 years has been based on lies."

He says,
"These are small war crimes. All told, if we take all the massacres and all the executions of 1948, we come to about 800 who were killed. In comparison to the massacres that were perpetrated in Bosnia, that's peanuts. In comparison to the massacres the Russians perpetrated against the Germans at Stalingrad, that's chicken feed. When you take into account that there was a bloody civil war here and that we lost an entire 1 percent of the population, you find that we behaved very well."

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 05:54 AM

but their rrefusal to stand trial and to bring the International crimes court crashing in flames is fairly incriminating - you have yet to address the consequences of that.

They have not refused to stand trial. They have never been asked to.
They have certainly not brought the ICC crashing in flames!!!

Statements like these show that you are incapable of being rational about anything to do with Israel.
You do have an irrational phobia that clouds your mind.

Israel has been co-operating with ICC over Gaza 2014, and the initial ICC report does not condemn them.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:09 AM

"Jim, massacres were committed by both sides in 1948."
Then why have you persistently denied that Israel has never carried out massacres, and why did you claim that Benny Morris's statements had been disputed?
As I said, you lied on both counts - why did you attempt to undermine one of Israel's leading historians with untruths?
I am noth the slightest bit interested in what else Morris has to say - he said that Israel was guilty of 27 massacres - you dismissed this as having been disputed - a porky.
"much as the demonisation of the Jews "
You are now claiming critisism of Israel is demonising Jews - that is Antisemitic - the Jewish people are in no way responsible for the crimes of Israel, as you appear to be claiming, otherwise, why bring it up?
"I acknowledge now and have never denied that some Jews committed vile crimes at that time."
Bit convoluted - are you still saying that you have never claimed Jews committed foul crimes - please explain this unintelligible statement.
They have been protected from standing trial by a mass of US vetoes time after time
They refused to co-operate with the 2009 U.N. enquiry into the Gaza incursion, they have encouraged and participated in the setting up of a rigged "enquiry" into 2015 massacres which found them "not guilty".
They have opposed the International Criminal Court to the extent of demanding that it be closed.
After Sabra/Shatila, they set up an equally rigged enquiry and found themselves "not guily" for their part in the massacre of 3,500 unarmed refugees - they, nor the killers they helped to carry out the massacre and helped to escape, have ever faced trial - they even buried the bodies so the enormity of the massacre will never be known.
Israel has never been tried for its war crimes and massacres and, if it has its way, (and if Donald Trump is elected) it never shall.
Nowe stop ducking and diving; if you wish to defend Israel, come up with something better than "they didn't do it" - what kind of a defence attorney are you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:25 AM

Then why have you persistently denied that Israel has never carried out massacres, and why did you claim that Benny Morris's statements had been disputed?

Because I was referring to recent history not 1948 before the IDF even existed in its present form.
Benny Morris has numerous critics and historians who disagree with him.

He says, ""True, I always voted Labor or Meretz or Sheli and in 1988 I refused to serve in the territories and was jailed for it, but I always doubted the intentions of the Palestinians. The events of Camp David and what followed in their wake turned the doubt into certainty. When the Palestinians rejected the proposal of [prime minister Ehud] Barak in July 2000 and the Clinton proposal in December 2000, I understood that they are unwilling to accept the two-state solution. They want it all: Lod and Acre and Jaffa."

Is that universally accepted Jim? Do you accept it?
What about,

"The bombing of the buses and restaurants really shook me. They made me understand the depth of the hatred for us. They made me understand that the Palestinian, Arab and Muslim hostility toward Jewish existence here is taking us to the brink of destruction.... Palestinian society is a very sick society. It should be treated the way we treat individuals who are serial killers. Maybe over the years the establishment of a Palestinian state will help in the healing process. But in the meantime, until the medicine is found, they have to be contained so that they will not succeed in murdering us.... Something like a cage has to be built for them. I know that sounds terrible. It is really cruel. But there is no choice. There is a wild animal there that has to be locked up in one way or another."

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:25 AM

Well, HiLo, I listened to some interviews on Radio 3 a couple of weeks ago with the actor Antony Sher who had lived in apartheid South Africa. You can probably get a podcast of the interviews. He expressed his extreme shame when he admitted that he didn't see the horrors of apartheid until he left the country. You were not in Israel as a Palestinian unless I'm seriously mistaken. The privileged in divided countries are insulated from the troubles. It's up to you to open your eyes now to what goes on. My uncles, returning from Rhodesia, refused to see it. Antony Sher opened his eyes. I don't know where you are with it. And please don't tell me that I had to live there. Most people who live there are fed a distorted view of what goes on, if they have to think about it at all. It's what governments do, even ours.

When I came to England in 1968, at 19, I looked around me and I didn't see any Jewish leading men in the classical theatre, so I thought it best to conceal my Jewishness. Also, I quickly became conscious of apartheid when I arrived here, and I didn't want to be known as a white South African. I was brought up in a very apolitical family. We were happy to enjoy the benefits of apartheid without questioning the system behind it. Reading about apartheid when I came to England was a terrible shock. So I lost the accent almost immediately, and if anyone asked me where I was from I would lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:29 AM

Michael, if your love of UKIP is predicated simply on their wanting us out of Europe, I'm afraid you don't get UKIP at all and I suggest that you do a little digging.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:31 AM

I would never slander you, Keith. You're pretty good at digging your own holes. As for having anything to say on the conflict in question, well blow me down, I've never mentioned it before in any of my posts, have I?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:34 AM

"much as the demonisation of the Jews "

I never said that. It is a Morris quote not mine.

the killers they helped to carry out the massacre and helped to escape, have ever faced trial - they even buried the bodies so the enormity of the massacre will never be known.

"they helped to carry out the massacre " is an unsubstantiated accusation that they deny. I put their side of the story.

"they even buried the bodies" is an unsubstantiated accusation that they deny. I put their side of the story.

Israel has never been tried for its war crimes and massacres

Perhaps it has not committed any. That is certainly what other decent democratic governments think. There is certainly no unequivocal evidence for it.

if you wish to defend Israel, come up with something better than "they didn't do it" -

"they didn't do it" is another of your fake quotes Jim.
I have never said such a thing. I just put their side of the argument.
What is your objection to both sides being heard?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 07:58 AM

"Because I was referring to recent history not 1948 before the IDF even existed in its present form"
You specifically targeted Benny Morris's "27 massacres" statement, claiming they dad been disputed - if they have where?
You have always claimed there have never been any massacres - don't say you are going to lie about this after the number of times you have said it?
"I never said that. It is a Morris quote not mine."
You have put it up twice in support of your arguments - it is your defence which makes it antisemitic - for crying out loud, stand by it.
Morris's reason for putting forward, considering the times he was writing about, is perfectly acceptable, yours is not.
Stop putting up irrelevant Morris quotes that are not being disputed, especially as you are still lying about his arguments being challenged, and have yet to give us examples.
""they didn't do it" is another of your fake quotes Jim."
It is an accurate paraphrase of your entire argument - I will continue to use it - nothing fake about it.
Stop digging
Jim Carroll
Israel's opposition to being tried and the International Criminal Court - are we taking this as read?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:20 AM

Car-ramming Attack Reported Near Jerusalem; Assailant Shot Dead

None said hurt in car-ramming, hours after two Israelis were seriously wounded after a Palestinian police officer opened fire in IDF checkpoint.

Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:32 AM

"
Terrorism, Again (Israel)......indeed!"
Occupied territories
Indeed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:40 AM

Sorry Jim, can't accept that report. It's by that extreme left wing organisation Amnesty International.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 08:42 AM

Quite right Steve, I did not live there. As a Palestinian . I also never claimed that Israel is blameless in that sorry mess that is the Middle East. When living there one IS aware of the split personality of the place...the deeply held belief that The Jewish people feel the need for a " homeland" and the equally obvious fact that Palestinians need a "homeland" as well. most of the people I knew whilst living there recognized both those needs but obviously could not agree as to how that should happen.
My personal belief is that Palestinians have been shafted both by Israel and by their own leadership.
On a slightly lighter.note, I have lived in four countries over my working life. I hope, if the conversation arises, that I may be anble to comment on them as well. But, to return to your point, I do know that .living in a place does not always give one expertise but Do feel that experience of a place is, in many ways, a great teacher if one is interested and observant.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 09:02 AM

that extreme left wing organisation Amnesty International.

In April 2015, Amnesty International voted down a motion to oppose anti-Semitism in Great Britain. http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/134529/amnesty-rejects-call-campaign-against-antisemitism

Representatives of the group claimed that Amnesty International had simply declined to pass a motion with a single focus; however, it was quickly discovered that the group had devoted an extensive report to anti-Muslim prejudice in Britain.https://www.aivl.be/sites/default/files/bijlagen/Rapportchoiceandprejudice.pdf

MORE

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 09:03 AM

"Sorry Jim, can't accept that report. It's by that extreme left wing organisation Amnesty International."
Shit - must ask the Israelis did they did it - that'll confirm it one way or the other
Sorry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 09:31 AM

"My personal belief is that Palestinians have been shafted both by Israel and by their own leadership."

I also think that the ordinary citizens of Israel are bring shafted by their own leaders (not to speak of their regime's puppets in America), whose policies are condemning them to a life of fear, insecurity and a constant state of war or near-war.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 09:42 AM

A bit of light reading

Andrew Thorpe Apps

Andrew Thorpe Apps

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:02 AM

One of the big fears that many Jews have , both inside and outside of Israel, is the fear of losing Israel itself. I have heard that fear expressed but when trying to work out how to " save Israel" there is so much deep emotion that it is hard to get round to solutions. This is not an excuse by the way, simply an observation of one of the many factors involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:20 AM

Fear of losing Israel is part of the "tiny country surrounded by huge hostile enemies" mindset that successive Israeli regimes nurture in order to keep their people onside. It's not just an Israel thing by a long chalk. The enemy without was very well delineated in Orwell's 1984. More recently we've had invocations of evil empires, the axis of evil and so on. The Cold War fed on it for decades, even though "Russia" was never really a threat to the US or Western Europe at all. All illusory but very convenient. Yes there's a lot of rhetoric from the more idiotic Islamic factions about wiping Israel off the map, etc., but rhetoric is all it's ever been. No-one has ever come close, nor should they even think about it (hope I'm not losing friends...)

And thank you mods for shutting down a thread just before I'd spent 20 minutes on a post to it. Grr! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:23 AM

Evocation might have been a better word. Or even something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:34 AM

I disagree with you on one point Steve, The losing Israel mindset comes from a much deeper place than politics. Although I do agree that politicians often cater to this fear. But the fear is real and defies political manipulation in a way because it is often at the root of Israels reactions to things going on around them. Again, not an excuse, just an observation. I do not know if many people outside Israel understand this but perhaps it might be useful to look at why this fear exists by looking at recent Jewish history.. the 20th century for example. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:38 AM

There are many people in Israel who are critical of the government, there are many Jews outside Israel who are also very disturbed by the state of affairs in Israel .

Yup. And Bearded Fred, et. al., claim that they are thus antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 10:50 AM

Predicated, Steve, on the inevitable result of the dishonesty of assuring us all at the time of the 1974 Referendum that an economic agreement, with no political overtones, was all that was being addressed: which Heath and his fellow shitheaps knew right well was never going to be the case. Since when Europe has imposed on us a series of requirements to our national and demographic disadvantage and bane. I expect you will try to invoke the dreaded R word; till recalling that the threats to our wellbeing come exclusively from fellow-Caucasian would-be self-betterers whose motivations are purely economic and not political. There is no threat to their liberties, only to their living standards which is buggerall biznis of yours & mine. Suppose I had better say my piece yet again about how the only thing which really moderates the mutual loathing of the French & Germans is their even greater shared hatred of us, for having beaten one of them in 1945, while the other had so lamentably failed us, and then gome a-cockcrowing on stinking ungrateful cochon de Gaulle's fetid dunghill, as if they had done it all by their bloody stinking selves, oh ainsi brillant qu'ils étaient.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 11:01 AM

Yes Greg, and there are those who refer to pro Israel supporters as antisemetic .

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 11:17 AM

"the mutual loathing of the French & Germans is their even greater shared hatred of us"
Without cause, of course!
Who can forget the hatred, distrust and patronising of all foreigners that our generation had drummed into us from childhood upwards - we even sang hymns about being foreign is "being in "error's chain".
Who needs reminding of the Bulldog Drummond and Sax Rohmer depiction of 'Johnny Foreigner', or Punch's ape-like depictions of the Irish - as for Biggles and the wonderful Blackhawks in their SS like uniforms, fighting the great fight and zapping the black savages.
Hate us - they were amateurs!!
Superstars like Bernard Manning, Jim Davidson and Chubby Brown have kept the flag flying ever since
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jan 16 - 11:20 AM

"
Yes Greg, and there are those who refer to pro Israel supporters as antisemetic "
And many, many more who refer to opponents of the Israel regime in the same way - sauce for the Goose, and all that.
Nice to have hit where it hurts.
Jim Caroll