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Song on a taboo subject?

RTim 23 Nov 07 - 08:15 AM
Charley Noble 23 Nov 07 - 02:24 PM
Jack Blandiver 23 Nov 07 - 06:28 PM
Big Al Whittle 23 Nov 07 - 06:54 PM
Jack Blandiver 23 Nov 07 - 07:00 PM
topical tom 24 Nov 07 - 12:42 PM
topical tom 24 Nov 07 - 12:44 PM
topical tom 24 Nov 07 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Actually Joe_F 24 Nov 07 - 03:15 PM
Saro 24 Nov 07 - 03:23 PM
Jack Blandiver 24 Nov 07 - 04:03 PM
Charley Noble 24 Nov 07 - 04:49 PM
GUEST,beetle cat 24 Nov 07 - 07:41 PM
M.Ted 24 Nov 07 - 10:09 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Nov 07 - 01:20 AM
Slag 25 Nov 07 - 01:51 AM
Rumncoke 25 Nov 07 - 05:29 AM
Jack Blandiver 25 Nov 07 - 06:42 AM
Rumncoke 25 Nov 07 - 09:21 AM
M.Ted 26 Nov 07 - 11:41 AM
katlaughing 26 Nov 07 - 12:04 PM
PoppaGator 26 Nov 07 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Scoville at work 26 Nov 07 - 12:28 PM
Celtaddict 26 Nov 07 - 02:36 PM
Rumncoke 26 Nov 07 - 09:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: RTim
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 08:15 AM

Well Well - after all these years I have been singing "Brisk Young Sailor" and didn't know that I had been singing Forty instead of Fourteen, as in Purslow's Wanton Seed!
Yes that does alter my view of the song! But won't stop me from singing it.


Tim Radford


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Subject: LRY:ADD: Lady Who Loved a Swine
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 02:24 PM

Celtaddict-

Evidently you are the only one interested in the lyrics of "The Lady Who Loved a Swine" but that is sufficient:

There was a lady who loved a swine,
"Honey!" said she,
"Pig hog wilt thou be mine?"
"Grunt," said he.

"I'll build thee a silvery sty,
Honey!" said she,
"And in it thou shall lie."
"Grunt," said he.

"I'll pin it with a silver pin,
Honey!" said she,
"That thou mayest walk out or in."
"Grunt," said he.

"Wilt thou have me now," said she,
Honey?" said she;
"Speak! Or my heart will break for thee."
"Grunt," said he.

My uncle was quite skilled at his grunting, and we as children were quite impressed.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 06:28 PM

In 'Last Night I Was in the Granzie' Davie Stewart sings:

'Oh, me and the mannishee laddie, we travelled from Aberdeen tae Bonny Dundee / But we couldnae get nae stollage, we had tae bing avree.'

And in Nic Cave's superlative reading of Stagger Lee:

'I'll stay here till Billy comes in, till time comes to pass and furthermore I'll fuck Billy in his motherfucking ass,' said Stagger Lee.
'I'm a bad motherfucker, don't you know and I'll crawl over fifty good pussies just to get one fat boy's asshole,' said Stagger Lee


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 06:54 PM

In the words of Private Godrey of Dad's Army, I don't like that sort of thing..........


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:00 PM

All good traditional fare; here's the ballad in full:

It was back in '32 when times were hard
He had a Colt .45 and a deck of cards
Stagger Lee
He wore rat-drawn shoes and an old stetson hat
Had a '28 Ford, had payments on that
Stagger Lee
His woman threw him out in the ice and snow
And told him, "Never ever come back no more"
Stagger Lee
So he walked through the rain and he walked through the mud
Till he came to a place called The Bucket Of Blood
Stagger Lee
He said "Mr Motherfucker, you know who I am"
The barkeeper said, "No, and I don't give a good goddamn"
To Stagger Lee
He said, "Well bartender, it's plain to see
I'm that bad motherfucker called Stagger Lee"
Mr. Stagger Lee
Barkeep said, "Yeah, I've heard your name down the way
And I kick motherfucking asses like you every day"
Mr Stagger Lee
Well those were the last words that the barkeep said
'Cause Stag put four holes in his motherfucking head
Just then in came a broad called Nellie Brown
Was known to make more money than any bitch in town
She struts across the bar, hitching up her skirt
Over to Stagger Lee, she starts to flirt
With Stagger Lee
She saw the barkeep, said, "O God, he can't be dead!"
Stag said, "Well, just count the holes in the motherfucker's head"
She said, "You ain't look like you scored in quite a time.
Why not come to my pad? It won't cost you a dime"
Mr. Stagger Lee
"But there's something I have to say before you begin
You'll have to be gone before my man Billy Dilly comes in,
Mr. Stagger Lee"
"I'll stay here till Billy comes in, till time comes to pass
And furthermore I'll fuck Billy in his motherfucking ass"
Said Stagger Lee
"I'm a bad motherfucker, don't you know
And I'll crawl over fifty good pussies just to get one fat boy's asshole"
Said Stagger Lee
Just then Billy Dilly rolls in and he says, "You must be
That bad motherfucker called Stagger Lee"
Stagger Lee
"Yeah, I'm Stagger Lee and you better get down on your knees
And suck my dick, because If you don't you're gonna be dead"
Said Stagger Lee
Billy dropped down and slobbered on his head
And Stag filled him full of lead
Oh yeah.

And for a video of Nick Cave's rendering: Stagger Lee


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: topical tom
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:42 PM

Some might consider this a taboo subject:It's Saturday night and I'm alone, I've made no future plans,


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: topical tom
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:44 PM

Sorry. That blue clicky doesn't work. I'll try again.


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: topical tom
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:50 PM

Had trouble. Here's the song:


    I've made no future plans,
So I sit me down and I pull out the little old Man,
I ain't got a girlfriend and I don't have a date,
But that's alright with me coz I love to masturbate

Back in the old days I'd buy some magazines, a six pack of beer and a tub of Vaseline,
Penthouse and Hustler were as good as it could get,
But I hit the jackpot when I found the Internet.

I'm beating my meat, pounding the pud, yeah I'm jacking off!
I got a good grip on my joystick, and it ain't Microsoft,
I'm flogging my dog, spanking the monkey, ain't computers great!
Yeah I'll never leave home coz I love to masturbate!

They got naked men and women, and all kinds of sex galore,
Blondes, brunettes and redheads and Philippine whores,
No matter what you're into, you'll find your own dot COM,
There's even one for old chicks where I think I saw my mum!

Yeah choke the chicken, rub the duck, yeah I'm talking low,
I got a good grip on my joystick and I can't let it go,
Row that skin boat, stroke the log, ain't computers great!
Yeah I'll never leave home coz I love to masturbate!

They say things like E commerce, with three "WWW"s and a dot,
They say It's for information, but I'm here to say it's not,
Now they're trading it on Wall Street, but they ain't fooling me,
It's al just a cover for the porn industry!

And I'm shagging my shaft, cleaning my gun, hammering the nail,
I'm a cybersex site surfer, with my own email,
I'm petting my snake, jacking off, thank you old Bill Gates,
I'll never leave home coz I love to masturbate!
Yeah I'll never leave home coz I love to masturbate!


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: GUEST,Actually Joe_F
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 03:15 PM

At first they kept it simple: they tried it he's & she's,
But when the ball was over, they were at it fives & threes.

Tom came home at his journey's end
To find his wife in bed with a friend.
The night was cold, and the blankets thin:
"I'll sleep in the middle," says Tom Bolynn.

(Both, I regret to suspect, added by Oscar Brand.)


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Saro
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 03:23 PM

As we seem to have run out of sensible discussion, I'm off...thanks all for your interesting historical information.
Saro


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 04:03 PM

I wonder - has discussion (sensible or otherwise...) ever been a feature of Mudcat? As a relative newcomer here, I'm careful to read the initial post & follow the logic as it unfolds. However, a lot of the time I've noticed people lobbing in non-sequiturs responding to the thread subject alone, rather than following the logic of any discussion as such, thus effectively knocking the thread on the head, as is the case here.

Topical Tom's contributions above are tidy examples of this - picking up on 'Taboo Subject' without bothering to find out what the thread is actually about - i.e homosexuality in traditional balladry.

Please pay attention; follow the thread & contribute accordingly...


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 04:49 PM

At least make an effort to dig up some traditional songs close to the topic, maybe songs that are older than 1900. Really good candidates are probably pretty rare, given the tendency not to write such songs down. PILLS TO PURGE MELACHOLY is a rare anthology which does provide an example or two but mainly provides conventional bawdy songs collected in the 17th century.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: GUEST,beetle cat
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 07:41 PM

Has anyone mentioned Bessy Bell and Mary Gray (child#201)?

It is an oddity among Child ballads, as Polly Stewart noted, in that in Child ballads, where there is a woman there is always a man. Well, these two women built a house together, and of course, died of the plague (how dirty).   

The obscurity of this song, its fragmented inclusion in the Child collection, and the lack of any others like it may simply indicate that homosexuality (or even lacking men in the lives of females) was too dirty a notion to even sing about. Heres to hegemony! Bloody murder, incest and even rape are fine though.

Mary


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 10:09 PM

It should be pointed out that, what with it being a necessarily secret culture, the references to homosexuality in songs would be veiled and obscure to the degree that no one but homosexuals would realize that they were there.


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:20 AM

I suppose the porn industry is a factor in modern life. I'm for inclusivity   Songs about past industries like coalmines and shipyards are in way about the dignity of the working man - and so they soothe our egos.

The porn industry - no doubt one day will produce its own folk songs.

I didn't like this song though. I'm not sure people embrace porn in quite the joyous way the song describes. Its more something to do with a lot of people not relating to anybody else much, and life running out of options.


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Slag
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:51 AM

As for cannibalism, I heard one about a fellow who passed his brother in the jungle...


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 05:29 AM

I think that some people do not realise just how taboo some subject were. People growing up here (in the UK) in the 1950s might have no idea about sex at all, girls were kept ignorant, or got no information from parents in the vague expectation of keeping them 'pure'.

My father, who was ground crew in the RAF during WWll, once told me that a pilot who was considered to be improper - which could mean having an affair with a married woman, or appearing overly effeminate or being seen to be 'getting too close' with another man, would be placed in danger and that would normally mean that he died. It was easily done and easily explained.

It wasn't homophobia in the modern sense, 'they' just didn't want that sort of person around and did something about it. 'They' wanted a better world after the war, and that meant getting rid of what 'they' knew was wrong.


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:42 AM

In what way does that differ from homophobia in the modern sense?


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 09:21 AM

Modern homophobia seems to run along the lines of punishing the offending individual's behaviour.

The way the pilots behaved was more on the lines of eugenics - removing those deemed unsuitable.


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 11:41 AM

If someone was "unsuitable", they wouldn't have been a pilot, Rumncoke. Just cause your Dad said it don't make it true.


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 12:04 PM

M.Ted, rumncoke said "improper" which to me isn't quite as judgemental as "unsuitable."


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 12:13 PM

I would imagine that if even one person of Rumncoke's Dad's acquaintenace were deliberately set up to be killed in combat, Dad might well never have been able to forget it. Of course, if it's true that such tactics were used against both heterosexual adulterers and suspiciously swishy individuals, there may have been more than one case. Maybe there was more talk than action about "taking care of" these purported undesirables.

I don't see any difference between "modern" homophobia and anti-gay attitudes of any earlier age. I don't think that "punishment" (whether by death or any less drastic measure) is the key element; it's more a matter of hatred resulting from exaggerated fear, distaste and/or misunderstanding.

Now, the Greek root of the suffix "phobia" means "fear" ~ not hate or punishment or prejudice or anything else. However, in common usage, the word "homophobia" has come to mean something closer to hatred and prejudice than fear. One is led to assume that all homophobic acts and attitudes, then, grow from the perpetrator's fear of homosexuality, and more specifically, fear that he himself might be gay. I'm not sure that this is always the case, but it's very likely quite often the case...


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: GUEST,Scoville at work
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 12:28 PM

Ma Rainey's "Tell it On Me Blues" is about lesbianism. It's not along the usual lines of a ballad, though. I hear there are other blues songs about homosexuality but that they don't get a lot of exposure latterly.


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 02:36 PM

Thanks, Charley. I do believe I have heard this, though I cannot think where; I never had the pleasure of hearing your esteemed uncle, or any other of your uncles as far as I know. Is there a tune somewhere?

While I am with weelittledrummer in that the rough, crude, and violent for the sake of violence does not appeal to me, I would be very interested to hear of other old traditional ballads comparable to Child 201. (Many old ballads, of course, were violent, but it is a part of the story line and gives me less of a feeling that it is solely for the sake of violence.)


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Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Rumncoke
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 09:03 PM

It is only called homophobia - I doubt that the perpetrators fear their victims - usually it is several against one - and they do regard it as punishment, or even protecting the kiddies from a pervert. From what I have heard gang rape of homosexuals is - or was - not uncommon, before beating them - they do not fear any act of male domination.

During the war all sorts were called up, trained, and sent to do their bit. I can't see how being homosexual, or having an affair, would prevent anyone from being selected for pilot training and passing the course. It was, however, very difficult to keep secrets in the squadron enviroment. The clerks would read the return addresses printed on envelopes, as did those handing out the mail. When going on leave the address where you were to be staying was required, so you could be recalled - and Heaven help you if you gave a false address.

Crowded together in Nissen huts with no privacy, tired and under stress, it must have been easy to let something slip, or be overheard talking in your sleep.

People really did regard such things as wrong, immoral, unforgivable, against God and good order, and the sort of thing that ought to be erradicated for the good of society in general.


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