Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .

Peace 12 Jun 04 - 10:31 AM
saulgoldie 12 Jun 04 - 10:44 AM
Bill D 12 Jun 04 - 11:07 AM
saulgoldie 12 Jun 04 - 11:35 AM
Doug Chadwick 12 Jun 04 - 11:57 AM
Amos 12 Jun 04 - 12:01 PM
Ebbie 12 Jun 04 - 12:46 PM
CarolC 12 Jun 04 - 12:46 PM
Amos 12 Jun 04 - 12:56 PM
Ebbie 12 Jun 04 - 01:09 PM
Rapparee 12 Jun 04 - 01:34 PM
Peace 12 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM
Megan L 12 Jun 04 - 01:55 PM
Peace 12 Jun 04 - 01:57 PM
Mudlark 12 Jun 04 - 04:54 PM
Hrothgar 13 Jun 04 - 04:18 AM
freda underhill 13 Jun 04 - 05:31 AM
CarolC 13 Jun 04 - 10:00 AM
Rapparee 13 Jun 04 - 10:10 AM
dianavan 13 Jun 04 - 12:35 PM
Peace 13 Jun 04 - 02:46 PM
Megan L 13 Jun 04 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,peedeecee 13 Jun 04 - 04:33 PM
Wolfgang 13 Jun 04 - 05:38 PM
CarolC 13 Jun 04 - 06:04 PM
Rapparee 13 Jun 04 - 06:31 PM
CarolC 13 Jun 04 - 06:36 PM
Amos 13 Jun 04 - 07:04 PM
dianavan 13 Jun 04 - 11:10 PM
Bill D 13 Jun 04 - 11:39 PM
Mudlark 13 Jun 04 - 11:45 PM
CarolC 14 Jun 04 - 12:23 AM
Amos 14 Jun 04 - 12:28 AM
Peace 14 Jun 04 - 01:50 AM
Peace 14 Jun 04 - 02:04 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 04 - 05:34 AM
Ellenpoly 14 Jun 04 - 05:38 AM
beardedbruce 14 Jun 04 - 05:41 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 04 - 08:45 AM
Rapparee 14 Jun 04 - 08:58 AM
Amos 14 Jun 04 - 09:07 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 04 - 09:25 AM
Rapparee 14 Jun 04 - 09:37 AM
CarolC 14 Jun 04 - 10:17 AM
CarolC 14 Jun 04 - 10:20 AM
GUEST 14 Jun 04 - 10:26 AM
Ellenpoly 14 Jun 04 - 10:42 AM
Amos 14 Jun 04 - 10:52 AM
Rapparee 14 Jun 04 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Larry K 14 Jun 04 - 11:00 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 10:31 AM

The things people do amaze me. I wonder if anyone would care to add to this list of things that people do that make absolutely NO sense. A few starters:

1) There are three places to put garbage: in the water, on the land, in the air. We create lots of garbage and put it in one of these three places. Humans are slowly poisoning themselves by doing this. We continue to do it.

2) Humans built over 50,000 nuclear weapons--the use of which would have severely limited our time on this planet. We knew that, and we built them anyway.

3) We know that cigarettes are a killer. The people we elect collect taxes from the sale of a toxin. Then they fund advertisements telling us how bad cigarettes are.

Does this make sense to you? I know people will give the reasons for each of the above, but that will not answer the question. I would like to know what we can derive from this particular aspect of human behaviour. Thank you.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: saulgoldie
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 10:44 AM

I think we can pretty well agree that human behavior, both individual and as a society is often illogical. I am amazed that we have survived this long in spite of ourselves. I do not think we have much longer, however.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 11:07 AM

if someone discovered a new, delicious fruit that science said was cumulative poison and would 'eventually' kill you, some folks would nibble at it, promising themselves they would stop if they felt like they were dying.

I guess we could explain 'short attention span' and 'deferred gratification' and 'taking the long view' and 'cost-benefit analysis' until we were blue in the face, and it wouldn't make a dent in the behavior of those who have short attention span and can't 'defer gratification'...etc.

ummm...'scuse me, I need my coffee and something with LOTS of sugar before I can type more...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: saulgoldie
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 11:35 AM

It occurs to me that perhaps the natural order of things of behaving irrationally will be our undoing as a species. Mother Nature (Or G-d or Goddess or the Council of G-ds) put us here with a lot of potential. Sadly, we have squandered that potential while overhwelming the Earth with our children and outstripping her ability to sustain us.

It makes sense to me to carefully evaluate our place in the world of plants and animals and to act as if we are *part of* a larger family, all members of which are entitled to live. Mother Nature, after allowing us to see what we have wrought and seeing that our little species is "not playing nicely with others" is allowing us to bring about our own demise by our own hand so that some of her other children can survive. But to many, this attitude is just leftist drivel.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 11:57 AM

Does it make sense to you that . . . .

it's the people who already receive large amounts (and sometimes obscenely large amounts) of money for doing their jobs who appear on the honours list for being jolly good eggs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 12:01 PM

The big question is (to me) understanding the origins of irrationality. Does it come from within? Are we so ill-adapted to the environment that our brain maps to it only irrationally? That is an intriguing possibility but kind of degrading to the noble vision that I would like to have of mankind (being one myself! :>) )

I prefer to believe that it is not structurally generated, but comes from two sources. One of these is simply un-education. It takes cumulative experience and insight to learn, for example, that the worst criticism comes from he who has the most to hide, and that secrets often make people critical of others. Or, for another example, to understand that the deepest upset is found between those who first loved each other the most, proportionally to the prior affinity. Or just to learn a simple counter-intuitive lesson that more communication--of some sort-- is always indicated when a problem persists. These are tough lessons int he absence of which people will act "illogically" because they acquire their governing policies from dramatization they have been exposed to. So they learn, for example, that the right thing to do is puff up and yell loudly and pound the table. Well, that's what Dad did, right? Must be sensible, I guess...

The second big source is the internalization of force in amounts that overwhelm the individual analytical ability. Trauma, emotional loss, and even moments of great confusion can really mess up analytical ability, and when we then internalize these and carry them forward with us, they just continue to confuse things. Compound them a few hundred fold and it really gets confused (and most folks have several hundred moments, I expect, which qualified).

Keeping all that at bay is a major effort in itself. An effort which adds to the overall picture.

That's my 2 cents' worth on the issue.


Amos


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 12:46 PM

brucie, you say there are three places to put garbage: land, water and air. Then you imply it is illogical of human beings to put our garbage in one of those places. If there are only three places to put it, where do you expect us to put it?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 12:46 PM

There was (or maybe still is) a tribe of original Americans (American Indians) who had a saying that every decision should be weighed in terms of the impact it would have on the planet and all of its inhabitants for seven generations into the future. Of course that society was mostly (if not entirely) wiped out by European imperialistic decision-making habits. (I'll get mine and to hell with everyone else.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 12:56 PM

We are working on achieving a technological level that will enable us to deconstruct garbage into its elements and then re-use those elements or compounds. A search on "nanotechnology" will bring up far more than you ever wanted to know about it.

This ability, it seems to me, is at most twenty or thirty years in the future. How rapidly it gets deployed is questionable, of course. Depends on how rapidly it can be made profitable.

At that point there will be a landrush to get mining permits on old garbage dumps, especially those from the Age of Plastics, and those where electronic devices have been dumped.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 01:09 PM

That's a nice thought, Amos. I like to contemplate the eventual coming-right of so many things that have gone awry. Most of them will probably not happen in my lifetime, of course. Maybe I can kind of hang around and watch? :)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 01:34 PM

Hang around and watch, Ebbie. I plan to.

We toss things that we could use or reuse. Right now, it's cheaper to extract or make from scratch than to recycle. That's slowly changing, not because it's the right thing to do, but because it's becoming cheaper NOT to mine or make new.

Why mine bauxite, for instance, when something like 85% of our aluminum needs are being met by recycling (at least in the US)? The aluminum is already extracted and made, all you have to do is melt it down and reuse it (yeah, I know, I know).

Polarfleece is made from recycled plastic pop bottle.

Make it economic to recycle and reuse and I think you'll find the mindset changing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 01:51 PM

Ebbie: What I meant is this: Create less garbage, and use biodegradable packaging. We knew lead was a poison when we used leaded gas. We still used it--victims of the world's Detroitts who couldn't change the motors quickly enough. We KNEW it was toxic. But we continued to do it anyway.

Electric toothbrushes, hair dryers, homes at 21 degrees (which we have come to call room temperature, my gawd). Chemicals that get poured into rivers, and fines for polution that are cheaper than fixing the problem.

That's what I meant.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Megan L
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 01:55 PM

never mind we will soon run out of fossil fuels so no more airplanes plastics, synthetic materials etcthat should clean things up a bit.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 01:57 PM

And then we will face a brave new world in which we burn coal and wood. Think we gotta haze now?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Mudlark
Date: 12 Jun 04 - 04:54 PM

I think the same things that have made humans the most powerful animals in the world, are the same things that will eventually lead to our destruction. Except for a few old cultures, we are endlessly inventive, enough is never enough, and we are endlessly adaptable, seemingly able to put up with the mess we are making until it's way too late to do anything about it. That we find it easier to contemplate complex nanotechnology than simply creating less waste is a case in point, to my simple way of thinking.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Hrothgar
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 04:18 AM

Carol, which Indian tribe was that, and can you substantiate the story?

I am a really cynical bastard when I read this "Noble Savage" stuff.

Peace.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 05:31 AM

Hrothgar

I found 89,200 references to this concept in google, including a comment by Bill Clinton:

In an address to tribal leaders at the April 29, 1994, meeting at the White House, President Clinton said, "The Great Law of the Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy contained this advice: 'In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decision on the next seven generations.' We are stewards; we are caretakers. That standard will keep us great." The USDA (The U.S. Department of Agriculture) produced a poster "For We Are the Keepers of the Seven Generations" ... www.usda.gov/news/pubs/indians/preface.htm

Before 1600, five indigenous nations -- the Cayuga, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, and Seneca -- formed the Haudenosaunee Confederation, or League of the Iroquois, with homelands then covering what is now upper New York State. (Since then, the Tuscarora and remnants of other indigenous nations have joined.)
In the Haudenosaunee system, there has never been a concept of a dictatorial leader, let alone a male one. The Haudenosaunee were, and continue to be, matrilineal. When a man and woman marry, the man moves to the woman's family, and newborn children enter the clan of their mother. The clan mothers select the political leadership of the nations, and possess the authority to remove leaders from office for malfeasance. In addition to leadership selection and removal, the clan mothers also serve as the judiciary. A centuries old Haudenosaunee philosophy states that that all major decisions of a nation must be based on how those decisions will affect at least the next seven generations.

http://www.ic.org/pnp/cdir/1995/30morris.html

best wishes

freda


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 10:00 AM

Thanks freda. You saved me some work.

I am a really cynical bastard when I read this "Noble Savage" stuff.

That term, "Noble Savage" and the concept behind it, really is one of the more reprehensible and racist things the Europeans have used to lable what was a civilization made up of human beings just like you and me. But it was necessary to tar them with lables like "savage" in order to justify the campaign of genocide that the Europeans waged against them in order to take all of their land. I'd say it was the Europeans who were the savages in this case.

And now look at their legacy. They (we) haven't really learned much of anything since then. Just killing and more killing. Waste and more waste. And pissing in the drinking water (metaphorically speaking). The native North Americans at least knew that you shouldn't piss in your drinking water.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 10:10 AM

I was at a meeting where an Elder of the Couer d'Alenes spoke. He said that the whites never understood that they NEVER went to war without the permission of the women Elders, and that only they could grant such permission and men had no voice in it other than to explain the need.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 12:35 PM

Oh, I think we have hit on something here. The exclusion of women from the decision-making that occurs in this world. Of course that is changing but its changing slowly.

In another thread I mentioned that when the British arrived on the westcoast, they realized that the center of trade was at the mouth of the Columbia River and that the trade was controlled by women. They wanted beaver and otter pelts but the women were too hard to bargain with. The first thing they did was introduce guns and alcolhol and the matriarchy slowly unraveled. The final blow was, of course, those nasty blankets - some gift. Here, wrap your family in this.

I too, cringe at depictions of the noble savage. I'm glad that the five nations on the east coast were so strong. On the west coast, after the introduction of firearms, the men would set fire to an island, wait in their canoes for the animals to swim away and then shoot them and tow them home. It didn't take long for the destruction of cultural norms.

brucie - It has only been recently that we have realized that we are polluting our planet. We do need a place to dump the garbage, the trick is to eliminate, by law, the toxins that are dumped. Of course that would mean severely limiting the profit margin of many big businesses. Of course their answer is to get the PEOPLE to clean up their act at home by recycling. Sure it helps a little but not nearly enough.

I wonder the same thing about fuel emissions. What good will it do to eliminate gas guzzlers when there is no attempt to do anything about jet fuel and war machinery? Why bother with treatment plants when Cruise Lines dump raw sewage in our waterways? Seems to me the effort will have to be massive and it will have to include measures to control industry and the barons of industry as well.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 02:46 PM

Precisely.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Megan L
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 03:03 PM

Rapaire we have a story of a highland wife who decided she was not going to lose her man for any prince. She tried pleading but met with the same answer wives and mothers still get today "I have to everyone else is going" Eventually she capitulated and said that it would be o long walk and she had best wash his feet before he went. She laid out the basin and put in a little water but it was to cold so she fetched water straight from the fire, but in her distress instead of pouring it into the cold water she poured it all over her mans feet scalding him so he could not walk. Ah well a burn will mend a life once lost is gone forever.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 04:33 PM

The tribe that measured their actions in terms of its impact on the future up to the seventh generation was (is) the Iroquois. My husband wrote a book on ecology recently in which the Iroquois model was featured. Unfortunately for us, the Iroquois had less impact with their civilization than we have with ours, due to technological advances and unbridled greed.

The Iroquois government manifesto also inspired the US constitution, by the way -- it's nearly a direct copy.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 05:38 PM

Several large mammals disappeared from America shortly after the first humans arrived. The moas disappeared from New Zealand shortly after the Maoris arrived.

No, it's not the Europeans with their imperialistic decision making habits, it's the humans of all kinds at many different places.

Wolfgang


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 06:04 PM

Wolfgang, I'm sure those animals went extinct a long time before the North American tribes arrived at their philosophy of "Seven Generations". The fact that the pre-Columbian people of North America did eventually arrive at a point when they understood the need to take into account future generations in their deliberations means they, at least, were capable of learning from their mistakes.

It was indeed the Europeans (and now the USAns) with their selfish decision making habits that have brought North America to this point of being on the verge of making the whole human race extinct. Hopefully we will be able to learn to take future generations into account before that happens.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 06:31 PM

From what I've read, such species as the wooly mammoth, the mastodon, and so forth were on their way to extinction before humans arrived in the NA. Climate change, from Ice Age to post-Ice Age, was one big reason cited for the decline. Humans helped, but were not the sole cause.

By the way, the same case can be made for the buffalo (bison bison). Not climate change, but brucellosis, with the "hunters" helping them along. And yes, I'm aware that the brucellosis was most likely brought in by cattle.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 06:36 PM

That, plus the US government's policy of exterminating the bison as much as possible in order to try to deprive the Indians of their most important food supply.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 07:04 PM

SOmetimes, coming to the Mudcat, I feel personally responsible for every bad thing that has happened in North AMerica. The guilt is relentless! Unfortunately, my capacity toe experience it is limited, let alone my ability to remedy it!

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 11:10 PM

Carole C. - I think most of the buffalo were killed to make way for the railroad. Killing them did deprive the Indians of food and also their culture but I am not sure it was intentional. When 'whitey' decides to expand, nobody can stand in the way - not buffalo, or Indians or white settlers either. Same goes for trees and salmon and wolves and bears and birds, etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 11:39 PM

if I had the proper entrepreneural spirit, I could make some big bucks selling hair shirts and "mea culpa" pins to readers of these threads. I'm sure Amos would buy a couple...

;>)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Mudlark
Date: 13 Jun 04 - 11:45 PM

Amos...I sympathise. It's not easy being us. (Just watched a program on LINK TV about global warming, our reprehensible unwillingness to even go along with the miniscule reduction in emissions, as the already beleagured Marshall Islanders are well on their way to losing their islands to the sea. All those important looking white guy suits, adamantly against any change that might infringe on our sacred right to "growth." Gah!)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 12:23 AM

How can we correct our practices, and hence our situation, if we don't recognise and understand them (and it)?

Feeling guilty is one choice people have available to them, but I don't think it's necessary. There are other choices that can be made. Guilt is a waste of one's energies, in my opinion. A more constructive use one's energies is to help people to understand what the problems are, and to help correct them. Everyone can help if they want to. But dismissing the problems by making cynical references to guilt and hair shirts accomplishes nothing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 12:28 AM

Thanks, Carol C... I feel much better.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 01:50 AM

The thing is, we are very fu#kin' culpa, and the sooner we come to grips with that notion the sooner we can begin to effect change. We are on the verge of a global catastrope, and to quote Doug R, "The sky IS falling." What we are facing is the Hard Rain ol' Bobbie talked about. This is NOT going away all by itself. The environmental disaster we face will make The Flood look like a warmup for the full meal deal. If it is already too late, I would like to think that some new homosapien sapien in a future world will retrieve our remains and artifacts and be able to piece together that we tried to alter the course of events in a positive manner. I saw 55 below zero once in the Arctic. I don't even want to imagine that without heat. And I don't think I have the guts to watch children starve to death, not if I'm thinking that the people of my time were so preoccupied with TVs and hairdryers, we allowed the worst to happen. Don't mean to preach. Sorry if it sounds that way. Basically, our planet is in deep shit, and we better realize it soon (read, right now).

Bruce M


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 02:04 AM

As an afterthought: I wonder what kind of creature could live in the world we seem to be creating?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 05:34 AM

And people go skydiving, mountain climbing etc, even though (usually because) they know they are dangerous (possibly because they are addicted to the adrenalin rush accompanied by the sense of danger). And we consider these people brave and people to look up to. Lazy people who do the same thing with a lot less effort (drugs) are the scum of the earth. Aren't they both as foolish/deluded as eachother?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 05:38 AM

To answer your initial question...

Nope. Never did, never will.

..xx..e

But I still love reading you all discussing it ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 05:41 AM

sense, or sensual?

8-{E


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 08:45 AM

Why do we not ban automobiles...they are one of the worst polluters. Why do retired people go to the bank at noon ?
What earthly use is an ATV ?
Why do we need three hundred kinds of cereal, soap, toothpaste candy bars....etc ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 08:58 AM

I cannot feel guilt over what my ancestors may or may not have done.

I think that we're wasting time and energy trying to assign blame, in this and in many other things.

I think that our problems have been studied to death.

I think that we know what has to be done to correct the problems.

I think that we ought to stop yammering and get on with fixing a sinking ship.

That is all.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 09:07 AM

Bravo, maestro.


A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 09:25 AM

Native north americans spen a fair amount of time conducting warfare against other tribes..people are people..sadly.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 09:37 AM

GUEST, if you truly cared about the things you blather on about you'd be actively working to correct those which can be corrected instead of rehashing them on Mudcat. You're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:17 AM

People keep trying to divert attention away from the possible solution I gave- to consider our decisions in terms of the impact they might have on future generations, by trashing the Indians or by saying let's not talk about it because it makes people feel guilty. My main point was that this practice, considering future generations when making decisions, is a good one. Anything else you guys want to read into it is your problem.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:20 AM

Well, that's not exactly correct. I do have a secondary point which is that our current way of making decisions is not sustainable and we need to correct it if we are going to survive as a species.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:26 AM

Rapaire,,, I don't understand your point..


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:42 AM

CarolC,
I think it's a sound idea. Now just how to we convince the powers that be to implement it?

Rapaire,
You sound very angry, and imply that no one need talk about the issues but just go ahead and do what has to be done. Would it were that simple. Unfortunately there are laws and regulations, and often both or either may be standing directly in the way of accomplishing real and wide-spread change.

Of course it's often down to the individual to do what he/she can..but the ripples that need to be started to really change what needs to be changed, and in time, can only be caused by big and loud splashes by a whole lot of people (ie-The anti-war marches during Viet Nam)...and even then, unless it's to the advantage of those in power, we often will continue to be beating our heads upon corporately greedy walls.


..xx..e


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 10:52 AM

It seems clear that decisions based on short-term benefits only, and based on local benefits only (one individual, or one company) are as lot lower quality as decisions than those which examineimpact over longer periods and wider scope. CarolC is absolutely right about that.

Another aspect deserving some attention is msaking decisions based on their substantive effect on things -- what they really do -- rather than the effect on perception, PR, opinion, status, or image.

A


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 11:00 AM

Oh, no! But here's an example of what I mean:

There have been two studies, done at considerable cost, on whether or not snowmobiles should be allowed in Yellowstone NP during the winter. Both of them, one done under Clinton and the other under Bush, concluded that snowmobiles should NOT be allowed into the park during the winter months. Now USD 10 million has been set aside for yet another study on the same topic.

I have no problem with talking about a problem or thoroughly studying it. But to conduct study after study gets you nowhere towards actually solving the thing. A time comes when you must act or slide into an abyss, and for too many problems the time is fast approaching when it will be too late to stop sliding.

CarolC, for years one of my biggest complaints has been that there is no true long-range planning done. Politicians plan from election to election and call it "long term." Business people might - might! - plan for five years out. I'm thinking in terms of fifty years...a hundred years. It can be done.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Does it make sense to you that . . . .
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 14 Jun 04 - 11:00 AM

Is the glass empty or is it half full.    It is easy to find fault with society of today.   However, health and medicine keep improoving.    People are living longer than every before.   My father was told he has two years to live about 5 years ago.    He is still going strong.   20 years ago he would have been dead by this time.

Polution is bad, but we are far more concerned about it that ever.   Have you ever looked at plants and factories 100 years ago or what they dumped into the river.   I think we are making progress.

Diseases used to wipe out entire populations.   Today they are mainly controlled.   Take a pill and never get chicken pox or measles.

On a macro sense, we all very helpless.   It is hard to believe you can make a difference.   On a micro sense, I believe individual people make a great difference.    I work for a large utility, but have the coolest job in the company.   I teach people and low income groups how to save money on their bill, which in turn saves energy, which in turn helps the environment.   I train all the case managers for THAW (the heat and warmth fund) Family independence agency, legal aid, society for the aged, etc. and do about 20-50 consumer presentations a year.   After one presentation, a woman came up to me and said that if everyone would just follow one of my suggestions, and just saved 5% of their energy use, what effect that would have on the country.   It was a profound thought that stayed with me.

Is is easy to be part of the solution.   It is far harder to realize that what you do makes a difference.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 22 September 1:25 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.