BS: Brexit again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 04:22 PM

The vote is the only way the average person participates in Democracy. If you want to take it further you have every right to get involved with whatever political entity takes your fancy, either locally or,if selected, nationally.To say it is a con trick played on society is a refusal to take responsibility. If you seriously think it is a con why not do something about it and get involved. Bleating non stop on a forum like this will never achieve anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 04:52 PM

Have another half-bottle, Iains. You have joined the unenviable ranks of the usual convicts. Nighty night. You're not worth talking to.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:27 PM

I would suspect you are the one that has been on the juice if that is the best way you can counter my argument. Better sleep it off prior to responding.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:47 PM

Well, Dick, the EU was never going to be in the vanguard of bringing about revolutionary change among the 6/the 9/the 12/the 28. It was about creating a bunch of democracies that would never wage war again on the scale of the world wars and about creating a trading bloc that would operate without punitive tariffs. In the words of John Seymour, who I think was probably not an avid European, the disease of gigantism was inevitable. In that context there was always going to be daft bureaucracy and a gravy train to be exploited. We don't like it, but, as Jim says, if you know of a proven better alternative, let's be having it. And, let's face it, many of the member nations, including our own, suffer from the same absurdities. Coming out isn't going to cure that.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:19 PM

As fine a bunch of idiots as you could muster GSS - there again neither yourself or Jim Carroll would have to live with the consequences of such clowns actually running the country living as you both do in the Republic of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 07:26 PM

"living as you both do in the Republic of Ireland."
A fine example of the Little Englander mentality so beloved by sit=com fans
How dare you criticise our country when you no longer live here.
I don't think I have ever encountered anybody who hates his nation as much as you do
Lazy, workers, unfit to have a say in their own lives - crap industry, not worth supporting, parasitic hangers on who should all get on their bikes...
God keep us safe from patriots.
WE tend to have the advantage of you people, having lived in both countries and in a position to see both sides of the picture.
Having had your aggressively arrogant behaviour placed before you in all its glory, you still can't resist talking down to people
It really does say what needs to be said about your state of mind.
"I would suspect you are the one that has been on the juice if that is the best way you can counter my argument."
What argument exactly?
I'm afraid we already have one of those already - that position is filled, as you may have noticed.
I would ask you to back up your point with a response to what has been said, but based on previous experience, that's not going to happen - is it?
You have put nothing but an opinion, somewhat ill manneredly and arrogantly. and ignored what has been said - debating forums don't work like that,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 07:48 PM

Perhaps this might work - worth a try if we don't want another Teribus on our hands
The World, according to poster Iains

I would suspect you are the one that has been on the juice
You have a fine line in drivel.
Babbling about it down at the pub achieves a big fat zero.
With his vastly inflated ego there is room for no others.
You do talk some absolute rubbish Jim.
Mr Carroll why do you throw your toys out of the pram whenever someone has the audacity to argue with you
Mr Carroll you obviously have issues.
Go and blather elsewhere!
you are pathetic.
I guess you got kicked out of the debating society at school. I wonder why?
Get a grip man!
Thus endeth the lesson!
Apologies for entering a little lucidity:
I wonder which bigot will spit out their dummy and hurl their toys out of the pram next?

Never heard the saying, "manners maketh man"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 08:09 PM

Unfortunately, Jim, the usual convicts have added one to their ranks in recent weeks, as you ably demonstrate. I think he may be Teribus's uncle...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 03:07 AM

Well Jim and Steve you both pontificate at great length on virtually every thread going on this forum. One of you cannot make a point without the need for red ink and capitals. Do you think that because the two of you have such sad lives that you have nothing better to do than scribble away all day on your keyboards that this gives you some extra credibility?

Sometimes you may have valid points to make but most of it is lost in a sea of verbiage. Do you seriously feel that blathering on at such length gives you some sort of hack status and we should all become your willing syncophants hanging on your every utterance?
Get real and try and act your ages.
A little less quantity and more quality would be nice.
Did the bard not say:
Brevity is the soul of wit.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 03:32 AM

Cherry-picking lines out of various posts to illustrate a point is a very simple exercise isn't it Jim. Provided you cut'n'paste them it means at least they are intelligible. Only thing that is lacking of course is context here is one example:

"I would suspect you are the one that has been on the juice"

That was Iains in response to this from Shaw:

Steve Shaw - 30 Nov 16 - 04:52 PM

"Have another half-bottle, Iains. You have joined the unenviable ranks of the usual convicts. Nighty night. You're not worth talking to."

Which just about sums up the debating skill of Steve Shaw in response to some perfectly put points made by Iains.

Now I assume by what is stated later that Shaw's "usual convicts" refer to myself, Keith A, Akenaton, Guest Gervase, Guest#, Lighter - well in fact anyone who has ever disagreed with him. But in truth it is just another example of a groundless accusation thrown out without any substantiation. So I will follow the advice of Dave the Gnome and challenge Shaw and give him the opportunity to make good his claim. If Shaw does not respond then we know that Shaw has made a false accusation and is deliberately lying.

What have I ever been "convicted" of Shaw? After all to be a "usual convict" I would first of all have to have been "convicted of something".

Convict - A person found guilty of a criminal offence and serving a sentence of imprisonment.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 04:36 AM

I don't think that phrases like I wonder which bigot will spit out their dummy and hurl their toys out of the pram next. You have a fine line in drivel. and Get real and try and act your ages. help too much in the debate either. But let's not get too bogged down into arguing about the argument. How about just saying that many people are hurling insults at each other and the rest of us are free to ignore them?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 04:46 AM

Well I suppose you're the last person I should have expected to have a sense of humour, old Bill. .

"Well Jim and Steve you both pontificate at great length on virtually every thread going on this forum. One of you cannot make a point without the need for red ink and capitals.""

I won't bother with the precise maths, but I estimate that I post on less than two percent of threads on this forum. As for Jim and his red ink, I estimate that Jim uses it in well under ten percent of his posts. I note that Teribus hasn't bothered to pick YOU up for making such a "baseless accusation". Why don't you try to see if you can get away with a "spittle-flecked rant" as well? 😂

If you say silly things on this board you'll be picked up. Isn't life such a learning curve, Iains?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 04:51 AM

"pontificate at great length on virtually every thread going on this forum."
Another example of your bad-mannered and dishonest behavior.
I become involved in the few subjects that interest me - if they interest me deeply, I become involved deeply
If I am spoken to reasonable, I respond reasonably - I do not talk down to people and I go out of my way to provide detailed information to my arguments.
Both you and your friend are serially insulting and act as if you possess a god-gifted knowledge of the subject you are incredibly bad-mannered on - neither of you provide linked information to your claims.
Teribus has been asked dozens of times - he refers to such requests by describing it as "pandering to us" - his god-complex fail;s to impress!
There is no need for this type of behaviour on a public discussion
Behaviour such as this hs no place on an open forum - it fouls it up for us all and leads to squabbling.
We all come to this forum with a degree of knowledge - some of us wish to add to it - others wish to display their supposed intellectual superiority and show us how clever they are.
If you care to glance at the examples of Teribus's strutting his stuff, dig out his list - it is the product of two or three days of his insulting and talking down to those who disagree with him.
You are behving the same, and should you continue, I will start gathering examples from you.
Why not just pretend we might - just might know as much as you do on these subjects and we might - just might be able to conduct a conversation in reasonable terms - and who knows, we might all learn something - that's why I'm on this forum - why not try it.
You might start by dropping such ill mannered statements such as this - which I have already added to your list for future ppsting
"but most of it is lost in a sea of verbiage."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:03 AM

What's wrong with just feeling contempt, and if need be, politely indicating that feeling, rather than choosing to reciprocate in kind?

It's not just a waste of time and energy, it also involved effectively cooperating in diverting the thread away from argument or discission into an escalating exchage of insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:06 AM

Jim 17357 posts since 2007
Steve 13357 posts 2007

That is a lot of posting on a few subjects!
Personally I do not care what threads you contribute too, but I do mind that whenever dissent is noticed you both try on occasions to bully down the opposition.
Reasoned argument is fine but both of you occasionally fail on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:32 AM

"That is a lot of posting on a few subjects!"
So?
Go count the subjects
Are you setting a limit on how many postings we can have on each subject?
"Personally I do not care what threads you contribute too,"
Whew - That's a relief!!
By the way - "TO" has only one O in the context you are using it - so you don't appear to be as knowlegeable as you thingk you are.
Not one for pointing out typos, make far too many myself, but this seems to be a repetitive mistake of yours.
"I do mind that whenever dissent is noticed you both try on occasions to bully down the opposition. "
I never "bully down the opposition" - I abhor the practice.
I always put as much linked information with arguments as I consider necessary and some subjects I believe to be important enough to persist with, but I never, ever bully - thugh I quite accept that some people regard providing information as bullying.
Please don't start adding lies to your list at this early stage of our relationship or our courtship will never get off the ground!!
Two more items for the list!
Now - unless you have anything fresh to add, I think we've naused up this thread enough with our little téte-a-téte, don't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:11 AM

"Well, Dick, the EU was never going to be in the vanguard of bringing about revolutionary change among the 6/the 9/the 12/the 28. It was about creating a bunch of democracies that would never wage war again on the scale of the world wars and about creating a trading bloc that would operate without punitive tariffs."
When we entered in 1973 it was about trade,it was a trading organisation, it is true that it has prevented war amongst its members, however it was useless at preventing war between serbia and croatia.      FROM Irelands point of view OVERALL it is better for the uk to remain in europe or alternatively remain in the EEA.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 07:29 AM

"FROM Irelands point of view OVERALL it is better for the uk to remain in europe or alternatively remain in the EEA." - GSS

Obvious but totally irrelevant as far as deciding what is in the best interests of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 07:51 AM

"Obvious but totally irrelevant as far as deciding what is in the best interests of the UK."
Britain's exit very much affects Ireland - particularly the Northern counties, which voted to remain, as did Scotland.
Ireland stands to have its borders instituted, which will set the Peace Process back decades and almost certainly lead to further strive and possibly loss of life.
Britain is not an Island - it covers two separate national cultures, with the partitioning of Ireland.
The repercussions of this bigotry based decision are having side effects far beyond Britain's borders.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:22 AM

The UK referendum was a straightforward vote on either to remain or leave the EU. Whatever reasons drove people to vote or abstain from voting were known only to them.
Therefore to say it was a bigotry based decision is a total travesty.
It is purely your interpretation of events without a shred of evidence to prove or disprove the assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:46 AM

"Therefore to say it was a bigotry based decision is a total travesty."
No it isn't
Brexit was sold on the basis of stopping immigration - immediately the result were announced racial incidents and attacks escalated - within days, immigrants (including British citizens, were being aaastopped and asked when they were going " home"
The overwhelming economic advice that Brexit would be stabalising and detrimental to the economy was totally ignored.
Even this morning, Brexiters have greeeted the news that immigration has reached a new high, has been hailed by demands that Brexit must live up to its promise of stopping immigration - horse's mouth mouth evidence of its racist agenda
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:56 AM

As you well know immigration was but one of the myriad of factors determining the way a person voted. To call everyone that voted for out a bigot is a bit strong even for you. Just because they happen to dispute your worldview does not make them a bigot. Perhaps you should study the definition:
intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:11 AM

I didn't call everybody any such thing - I believe emigration was a deciding factor and the evidence points to that - address the evifdence and don't be accusing me of things I am not saying.
My attitude to intolerance includes that which generates race hared cultural hatred
Perhaps that's a definition you should be studying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:18 AM

The repercussions of this bigotry based decision are having side effects far beyond Britain's borders.????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:53 AM

Sorry - is your keyboard stuck?
Try a new one
I am not claiming that "everyone that voted for out" is bigot - that's your distorted spin on what I said.
The indications are that bigtry swung the vote in favour of Brexit
Britain has a reputation for racism - a survey indicated that one third of the popuaion hold and have expressed racist views
That's the feature that the Brixit campaign concentrated on and events indicate that side of the campaign won the day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:55 AM

Putting aside all the ragging, Jim raises an extremely serious issue
that illustrates the law of unintended consequences. The Brexit vote, as he rightly points out, potentially has serious consequences for Ireland.
There may have to be a hard border again between north and south and Ireland's trading position may be seriously compromised. Also politics may rear it's ugly sectarian head. Hopefully none of these events will occur, but it is yet another of the potential outcomes of Brexit that certainly had no public airing before the event.
    Had all the true issues surrounding Brexit been itemised and discussed prior to the vote It is a distinct possibility the outcome would have been very different.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 10:19 AM

Hi Jim

<" Brexit was sold on the basis of stopping immigration "

I think that is an overstatement Jim.

What was said and understood was that immigration should be controlled.

I don't know what you saw this morning but the statement I saw on BBC did not advocate stopping immigration but control.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 11:36 AM

"I think that is an overstatement Jim."
I don't think so Mike
Whatever the Government thinks/thought, it was Ukip who led the campaign to leave and it was immigration (conrol or stopping - moot point) that motivated their policy
It was this, I believe, that was the deciding factor
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 11:40 AM

You are a very confused man, Iains. You castigated non-voters because they couldn't be bothered. Then you said "Whatever reasons drove people to vote or abstain from voting were known only to them." Then you said "As you well know immigration was but one of the myriad of factors determining the way a person voted." You are having difficulties with consistency today, aren't you, Iains? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 11:57 AM

As far as the "Official" Leave campaign was concerned UKIP didn't even feature into it, they had no space at all on the "official" leave bandwagon.

The Party was established as a Eurosceptic, anti-federalist party in 1993, long before Labour's Anthony Charles Lynton Blair became leader became leader of the opposition, let alone the Prime Minister who screwed the country right, left and centre in many more ways than advocating and encouraging an open door immigration policy - a thing he latter was to declare his greatest mistake - the Iraq war on the other hand he'd do again in a heartbeat.

NO ONE in the range of political parties present amongst those advocating Leave ever said anything about STOPPING immigration, they did state quite clearly that immigration does require to be CONTROLLED - nothing "moot" about it, you can only go on what is actually said, not on what you think has been said.

Ordinary people up and down the country are apparently concerned that our welfare services, housing, education and labour markets are being swamped by the current level of immigration - that is why they voted as they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 12:26 PM

"Leave campaign was concerned UKIP didn't even feature into it"
Are you seriously suggesting it didn't have a majooor influence in the decision
"Vote Leave has focused on economic arguments against the European Union, while Leave.EU has made more of immigration-related issues. This has led to situations where Vote Leave and Leave.EU statements have contradicted each other, and sometimes to direct attacks by one pro-Brexit group against the other.[35] Infighting within Vote Leave and Leave.EU, as well as disillusion with Cummings, led to the formation of Grassroots Out (GO).[36] Nigel Farage is a key member of the organisation and of Leave.EU and UKIP donor Aaron Banks is a major donor to GO,[36] whereas Vote Leave is a mainly Conservative campaign.[37]"
The fact that "stopping immigration" was never mooted, didn't stop those who went around demanding to know whwhen those of a different colour - citizen orr otherwise, weer going home.
The effect it had was incitement, if it was not policy.
DIDN'T FEATURE - MY ARSE!!
Jim Carroll
Wiiki

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 12:39 PM

mr shaw are you trying to contribute to the thread or just being your usual self?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: MikeL2
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 02:32 PM

Hi Jim

I can't agree with your comment about the meanings of Control and Stopping with regard to Immigration.

Also <" The fact that "stopping immigration" was never mooted, didn't stop those who went around demanding to know whwhen those of a different colour - citizen orr otherwise, weer going home.
The effect it had was incitement, if it was not policy.">

You appear to be saying here that only "Brexit" voters are racists.
We both know that this isn't true.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 04:07 PM

I contribute to threads a good deal, Iains, including this one. Today's contributions from you have involved you making a complete arse of yourself by saying one thing one minute and contradicting yourself the next. I'd far sooner be wrong all the time, like me!

Teribus, you won't be the first person to be accused of racism by claiming that "our welfare services, housing, education and labour markets are being swamped by the current level of immigration." It would be more honest to address the real causes of the pressures on those elements, namely under-investment, poor planning and low morale. Immigrants come here to work. They contribute massively to the economy. Tory types like you have a habit of blaming the wrong people and penalising tne wrong people, namely the poorest and the powerless in society.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:48 PM

"I'd far sooner be wrong all the time, like me!"

Well Steve you are certainly consistent.

You think that the present rates of immigration are sustainable?
That unregulated economic immigration don't drive down wages and pressurise our public services.

You think that we can get investment and high morale in a country full of whinging old men who try their hardest to do the UK down?

You see the status quo failing our young people yet are determined to hang on to a system which benefits the retired and comfortably off.

Aye you're "wrong", but you've got used to it ....and quite like it...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:06 PM

"I can't agree with your comment about the meanings of Control and Stopping with regard to Immigration."
Then you have to rip them to shreds with argument
"You appear to be saying here that only "Brexit" voters are racists."
Who said that?
I said Brexit inflamed the worst xenophobic instincts of a sufficient section of the population conditioned to treat foreigners as inferiors.
It was incitement to race hatred - pure and simple
Powell tried and failed decades ago - Brexit succeeded - the only difference between the two
"You think that the present rates of immigration are sustainable?"
As human beings responding to a situation we have helped to cause - it has to be.
You wipe up your own shit - not walk away from it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 07:44 PM

"As human beings responding to a situation we have helped to cause - it has to be."

Now there's a novel idea......how did the redundant workers who's jobs are no longer viable help to cause this situation?
And why do I ask?.....because they are the people most aversely affected by unregulated immigration!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:38 PM

"how did the redundant workers who's jobs are no longer viable help to cause this situation?"
They didn't - the dismantling of British industry by verious governments - started in earnest by Thatcher saw tto that.
Politicians destroyed British Industry while helping themselves to "expenses" from the nations purse.
Greedy bankers, with the assistance of equally greedy and incompetent politicians brought Britain to its knees through numerous crashes and recessions
Greedy employers, assisted by politicians, have taken away what little voice British workers had, done away with the right to notice by creating zero contracts and have operated a cheap labour scheme by employing as cheap as they can get
And you blame the Immigrants (while claiming to be a socialist)
Socialist my arse
You are every bit as supporter of exploitation of workers as any extremist riht wing Tebbittite
You said a little time ago that a good Goverment would be one that embraces Christian values - what values would they be?
You show not a shred of humanity toward people in trouble and wnat to stop them entering Britain ,and those who do scrape through, you are in favour of forcing them to wear armbands and live behind red-painted doors so the scummy racists can single them out - even after the British establishment had abandoned the idea.
Compassion for your fellow man? - I see only prejudice and hatred for those who don't meet your social and particularly your sexual standards.
You are an extremist, right wing mess Ake - probably the most far right individual I have ever come across, totally impervious to the suffering of others.
Christian my arse
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 03:29 AM

As well as being a ranter Jim, you are completely missing the point.

The issue of WRISTBANDS   and the refurbishment of Local Authority housing has been explained to you several times.

I don't intend to go over any of your conspiracy theories on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 03:50 AM

"The issue of WRISTBANDS   and the refurbishment of Local Authority housing has been explained to you several times."
And still comes over as an act of absolute inhumanity comparable with forcing to forcing the Jews to wear yellow stars, as it wwas described even in the right wing British Press,
You continued to support the obscene practice long after the Right Wing British establishment outlawed it as being detrimental to the well-being of refugee families - making you righter than right in anybody's book.
As with other extremist right wingers on this forum, I don't give a tuppeny **** what you care to go over - you are what you are and we have nothing to say to each other - I'd probably better spend my time arguing with the B.N.P. - at least they they have a following.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:04 AM

Why don't you address the point about the redundant workers, whom you expect to welcome hoards of Eastern European immigrants with open arms because "we" created the situation?

Instead of bombarding other members with insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:12 AM

Oh Shaw please don't be so coy - Steve Shaw - 01 Dec 16 - 04:07 PM - quote the whole thing and concentrate your mind on the first bit:


"Ordinary people up and down the country are apparently concerned that our welfare services, housing, education and labour markets are being swamped by the current level of immigration - that is why they voted as they did." - Teribus

Now where in all of that have I said "THAT I THINK THAT"???

Liked your automatic hard left "socialist" mantra dictum - Never forget - It is always somebody else's fault.

"It would be more honest to address the real causes of the pressures on those elements, namely under-investment, poor planning and low morale." - Steve Shaw

Tell me Shaw when was the critical breakpoint for all the investment and planning to accommodate the influx of people our country has experienced since the expansion of the EU and the refugee crisis we see as a result of repression and crack downs by Governments in Eritrea, Libya, Syria? It takes time (years) to plan and build hospitals, schools, transport facilities and houses and normally those tasked with predicting and planning those things operate from models based on current situation and probable predictions. Now back in the 1980s none of those planners or Government economists had the slightest inkling at all that Anthony Charles Lynton Blair would get up one morning and introduce complete unrestricted access to the UK.

This paper by Professor Martin Ruhs Martin Ruhs (Associate Professor of Political Economy at the Oxford University Department for Continuing Education, a Fellow of Kellogg College) is quite interesting:

Is unrestricted immigration compatible with inclusive welfare states? The (un)sustainability of EU exceptionalism

Introduction

The economist Milton Friedman was one of the first to argue that there is a fundamental tension between what he called "free immigration to jobs" and "free immigration to welfare" (Friedman 1978). The political scientist Gary Freeman made a similar point in his widely cited article on 'Migration and the political economy of the welfare state', which concluded that "ultimately, national welfare states cannot coexist with the free movement of labor" (Freeman 1986, p.51). The implication of these arguments is that you can have large-scale labour immigration or an inclusive welfare state – but not both. However, under the 'free movement' rules of the European Union, EU workers have both the right to freely migrate and work in any EU member state and the right to full and equal access to that country's welfare state. Does the experience of the EU show that the alleged tension between large-scale labour immigration and inclusive welfare states does not exist or, if it exists, that it can be overcome? Or will the free movement of workers within the EU prove to be unsustainable? In this paper I argue and show why continuing to insist on both unrestricted migration and equal access to national welfare states for EU workers has the potential to undermine the political sustainability of 'free movement' because it does not take adequate account of important differences in the labour markets and welfare states across EU member states.

So like the precipitate introduction of the common currency the "Free Movement - both economic and welfare" seems to be another EU screw up brought about by those at the helm in the EU not thinking things through.

See Hollande is not even going to stand for re-election in France.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:14 AM

To be pedantic, it's 'hordes'. But however you spell it, it's a racist slur.

The problem isn't your 'hoards of Eastern European immigrants'. If workers are made redundant, there's a legal issue in that their jobs no longer exist, and they cannot legally be replaced. If British workers are, as you seem to be claiming, being made redundant in order to employ cheap foreign labour, then employers are wholly to blame for:-

a) breaking employment law
b) undercutting existing wage/salary rates by employing cheap labour.

You really need to get your head out of the Daily Heil and the Sun, and widen your reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:31 AM

No BWM I am not claiming that these workers were made redundant by immigrants...they were made redundant by globalisation, but they see immigrants happy to earn the minimum wage ,or less....because it is worth three or four times as much in Eastern Europe where much of it ends up. The playing field is not level, these locals could not survive on the minimum wage, most are better off on benefits with their rent paid......who can blame them being upset that their services are being overused while funding is being cut......and the money is simply not available to give these people proper retraining or ensure a decent life.

Taxing industry or "The rich" will simply exacerbate the situation under this capitalist system......that is a fact of life.

We require something more radical, but with you people masquerading as socialists, I wont hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:50 AM

"Why don't you address the point about the redundant workers,"
I have done - a dozen times
They are the result of ruthless employers hiring the cheapest and corrupt politicians letting them
I've even suggested a solution - a legally binding living minimum wage
Your blaming immigrants is inhumanly despicable and it's a confirmation of your 'Rightness'
No insults - just analytical argument which you refuse to respond to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:59 AM

I didn't say anywhere that "you thought that..." Teribus. If you hadn't regarded your statement as fact you wouldn't have made it! The Tories hate the NHS and are dismantling it. Hospitals are closing, services are being cut back, there is a shortage of GPs, waiting lists are turning into a national disaster. Far from causing a crisis in the NHS, immigrants are propping it up. Next time you go into any hospital, open your eyes for once. As for housing, the house-building record of this and several previous administrations is pathetic. Immigrants are absolutely not to blame for that either. They make a great scapegoat covering up for government deficiencies of course. And we invest in transport links, of course, ignoring potholes whilst indulging in vanity projects like another runway for the southeast and a high-speed "rail link" that will make it easy for people to bomb down - guess where - to London, of course! that is already costing almost double its promised budget before a single bloody sleeper has been laid. "Blame someone else?" You go apeshit when we blame Thatcher for the things she actually did. Your latest obsession is to blame Blair for everything. Are you sure he didn't rape all our daughters and eat babies too?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:00 AM

Jim, I have never "blamed" immigrants they are only trying to better themselves financially.   I blame short sighted governance which introduced such an idiotic immigration policy. A policy which discriminates against our own people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:12 AM

"...against our own people." So it's us and it's them. When you're down the pub, do you start your sentences with "I'm not a racist, but..."?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:36 AM

Wristbands?
Have you seen the sitcom Benidorm?
British tourists forced to wear wristbands in EU Spain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:50 AM

"British tourists forced to wear wristbands in EU Spain."
For Christ's sake Keith - we've been through all this.
The wristbands and the painted doors were recognised as being detrimental to the well-being of the refugees - racist thugs were using them to target their victims - they were removed because of this.
Even the extremist right wing press accepted the dangers - it was the Daily Mail who compared them to Jewish yellow stars.
And you crowd go on defending them
What kind of Christians are you - more to the point - what kind of human beings are you?
"Jim, I have never "blamed" immigrants they are only trying to better themselves financially. "
That id belittling them in itself - many of them are just trying to stay alive, having fled war zones we have helped to cause.
They have come to Britain in the same way Britons and Irish and Scots went to America - and why so many British people went to Europe until you clowns closed the door - to earn a living.
We owe these people - we shaped their countries to serve an Empire that no longer exist, we support the people whose terrorism they are fleeing from, politically and by selling them arms, we fill our shops with goods produced in factory death-traps for pittance wages....
And you people want to wash our hands of the mass poverty we have helped to cause by turning them away
What kind of "Christian/Human Being are you.
And still you refuse to respond to the employers hiring cheap being a major cause of low wages and unemployment
Socialist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! my arse.   
Jim Carroll