BS: Brexit again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 03:47 AM

...as I would prefer NOT to detract etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 05:59 AM

Not a lot of problems with Teribus's list - what I do have a problem with is the poster.
Most of his items refer directly to his own behaviour and we all would be beneficiaries if he read and digested them and applied them to himself
He is unarguably the most arrogantly unpleasant, bombastic and insulting poster on this site.
I have recently decided to list examples of his insulting arrogance and post it up each timee he adds to it - each time adding the new example
Rather than go back over the years he has behaved as he does, I started a few days ago - around ten examples on the first day
I will continue to do this and add a new example until he cleans his act up.
I know, from the few subjects I can claim any reasonable knowledge of, that he has little understanding of topics that he blusters and bullies his way through.
He refuses to offer proof of his claims, making them all opinions rather than being factually based.
To sum up - he argues on the basis of bombastic bullying rather than real understanding.
As he does this with everything he argues on, I have come to the conclusion that everything must be treated with suspicion until he is prepared to qualify it.
Nice list Teribus - why not read it carefully and apply it to your own behaviour.
I have little doubt that this forum would be a better and less unpleasant site if you did.
Sincerely
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 06:24 AM

On many a forum, discussions that turn inward like this are shut down. I'm not saying that that should happen, nor do I want it to. But I'd rather talk about brexit in a brexit thread, poppies in a poppy thread, cheese in a cheese thread, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 06:36 AM

Agreed, Steve. Jim - Please do not turn this thread into another Teri and Jim show! (Combination of Terry and June and Rosie and Jim - Sorry, couldn't resist it!)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:31 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:32 AM

Whoops
" Jim - Please do not turn this thread into another Teri and Jim show"
I have no intention of Dave, but people who go on at length being critical o others really do need a strong dose of self examination.
I have resolved to say what I have to say to people I have problems with and lave it at that, rather than participate in Jin and whoever shows, but it isn't easy with a couple of people.
To tell the truth, if fed up of being talked down to be one individual in particular, and I have no doubt I am not alone
Having said what I have to say, let's leave it there eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stu
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:38 AM

Shine on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 02:01 PM

Now it seems Article 127 of the EEA treaty is set for a legal battle akin to Article 50. The relationship between a vote to leave the EU and the treaty to join the EEA appears - surprise, surprise - not to have been thought about beforehand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 08:21 AM

AC Grayling again.

Just an opinion of course but, in my view, a very reasonable and considered one. I am no expert myself so I have trust that Grayling is well versed enough to form such an opinion. I would certainly trust his over that of Farage and his ilk.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 08:37 AM

In a couple of years, the EU will be history. We are getting out at the right time and should take advantage of that to negotiate the best trade deals available.
Freedom of movement was policy to attract "cheap labour" and so avoid the need for vocational training, we must stop behaving in such a parasitical fashion.....and as a country stand on our own feet.
This would enable all sectors of our society to prosper culturally.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 08:51 AM

"Freedom of movement was policy to attract "cheap labour" "
Is there no end to your idiocy Ake?
Free movement was one of the greatest opportunities to alleviate the problem of national unemployment - you are, once again, blaming a half-decent idea on those who would exploit it - the employers.
It would work perfectly in countries which had the decency to establish laws governing minimum levels of wages.
Your "if we have to go hungry, let's go hungry in our own country" is pathetic Little Englandism in the extreme.
Freedom of movement prevented another million Irish people from starving to death, thanks to British callous (and probably deliberate) mismanagement of a natural disaster in the 19th century.
Thanks to the fact that Britain is reneging on its responsibilities of Empire and wars it has been part of causing and has abandoned all pretence of humanity for the refugee crisis it is part of causing, it is not working for the refugees - we'd rather stand by and watch dead children acrried out of the sea.
Worth sayin agaain - if the Britain of the 1930s and 40s, had adopted the same callous insularit as is being shown now, there world have been far more dead Jews than there actually were.
We have become a cold, unfeeling and Xenophobic nation and Brexit has made that official.
Let's hope Britain is never desperately in need of help as these people are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 09:44 AM

What worries me most about the migration of labour business is that when we do leave the EU (Yes, I think our politicians will do it just to save face) then any legislation that was EU wide to regulate pay and conditions will go out of the window. When we realise that there is a shortage of skilled labour we will look outside the EU to where labour laws are more lax and the result will be exploitation of poorer nations to an extent that we have not seen for a long time. Worse still, without the European commission on human rights to underline good practice in this country, we will also see exploitation of our own youngsters who will have then been deprived of the right to better employment in Europe and forced into accepting whatever pittance is being offered here. All speculative of course but a genuine concern for me.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 10:09 AM

"Free movement was one of the greatest opportunities to alleviate the problem of national unemployment".....Where did you get that little gem from Jim?   Who's unemployment would that be then, I certainly don't see any improvement in the wages or job opportunities of young people in the towns left behind by globalisation.

You call me an idiot yet you fail to see how Freedom of Movement disadvantages our own young people who wish to put down roots and bring up a family.

Leaving the EU is the best thing the Tory Govt have done for years, even though they have been dragged kicking and screaming by Mr Farage.

You are not an idiot Jim....you are much worse, blinded by your ideology...it oozes out of every post.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 10:31 AM

"Where did you get that little gem from Jim?"
From the many thousands of preople who couldn't get work back home amnd moved to Europe to find it 1.2 million of them on the last count.
At ther present time there are 32 thousand Britons drawing unemployment benefit in the E.U.
Should all of these people descend on Britain because they are no longer welcome in Europe - what do think that will do to the economy?
And what a golden opportunity for ruthless companies to drive down wages and reduce workers rights even further.
What kind of a Coud Cuckoo Land do you inhabit Ake.
"Leaving the EU is the best thing the Tory Govt have done for years, "
Yeah - sure it is - you can tell by the effect is is having on our economy, let alone the social split and the increase in racist attacks since Br3exit
Fiine for you UKippers - a disaster for British people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stu
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 01:54 PM

"Freedom of movement was policy to attract "cheap labour""

No it wasn't. Scientific research is collaborative and benefitted massively from freedom of movement; I guess it's hard for people to understand that the borders men draw in the fusty rooms of Westminster can stifle the high level of scientific and technical research we do in this country.

The idea that in some way the ending of freedom of movement is not affecting or going to affect science is wrong. Of course, you can't tell that to the acolyte of fascism; to them scientists, artists, poets, writers and countless others are the enemy to their execrable ideology, because they think for themselves and won't bow to demagogues and liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 03:55 PM

""Freedom of movement was policy to attract "cheap labour""

Yes it was!......described by Mr Tony Blair Labour Prime minister as "a policy to make us more competitive in the Global Economy"   and who am I to disagree with an expert?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 04:14 PM

"The idea that in some way the ending of freedom of movement is not affecting or going to affect science is wrong. Of course, you can't tell that to the acolyte of fascism; to them scientists, artists, poets, writers and countless others are the enemy to their execrable ideology".......Now that is comical, what do scientists have in common with....artists, poets and writers?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 05:15 PM

"Yes it was!...."
No it wasn't, and if you belived what you claim you would respond to the number of Brits living in Europe by showing us why they didn't atter
ou are avoiding the fact that you know damn well that your stance is that you don't care as long as Britain gats rid os all these foreiigners.
That is exactly why Brexist was passed and the proof of that is the rise in racist attacks.
Chep labour is down to unscrupulous employers using immgrants and a government that refuses to introduce a living minimum wage - that is what you are defending
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 05:18 PM

Blair never mentioned 'cheap Labour anyway' that is solely your spin on what he said.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 05:24 PM

Why are you two arguing with this silly sod? The stupidest man that has ever disgraced this forum (and he has competition). Tell him how stupid he is then let it go.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 03:14 AM

Steve, if you don't wish to take part in the debate, why do you keep butting in with insult.....your last three posts have said absolutely nothing.
Jim and Stu are perfectly capable of engaging in debate without your dubious advice.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 03:43 AM

"Jim and Stu are perfectly capable of engaging in debate without your dubious advice."
And I am perfectly capable of responding for myself
Steve is right.
Arguing with someone who works to a dictionary that in no way relates to the rest of us, makes things up out of thin air and refuses to respond to challenges when argued with and then goes and repeats the same thing after a comfortable gap is a total waste of time.
I really think it's time we all cleaned up our acts and stopped shadow boxing with idiots.
If you want to qualify silly statements, like your makkie-ups about Blair or cheap labour with real evidence or logical argument - fine = if not, as far as I can see, you present no grounds for discussion, which is what we are here for.
You have been given an outline of the damage that has already been done and what is likely to happen in future to the British economy and the racial and social damage that is already happening and is likely to accelerate.
You want to respaond like a rational person - not to mention a human being - then let's argue on that.
I have always found Little-Briton flag-wagging the stuff of sit-coms, amusing for a time, then boring.
Let's talk about the real effects of Brexit - particulatly from the point of view of human beings and not the wild fantasies of supra nationalists
Otherwise, let's not talk at all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 04:03 AM

Let's talk about the real effects of Brexit - particulatly from the point of view of human beings and not the wild fantasies of supra nationalists"
I think a lot depend son whether the uk can remain in the EEA.
"Worse still, without the European commission on human rights to underline good practice in this country, we will also see exploitation of our own youngsters who will have then been deprived of the right to better employment in Europe and forced into accepting whatever pittance is being offered here. All speculative of course but a genuine concern for me."
reasonable enough comment, up to a point, but only part of the picture
What about all the young irish forced to leave ireland and go to work in australia or canada, fat feckin, use europe was then, in fact it was european policies imposed by brussels [the repayment of debt, caused by anglo irish bank]that cause a mass exodus.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 04:06 AM

I wouldn't bother too much with what Steve says Jim.....he has been pretty comprehensively demolished by Teribus on this and other threads.    "Stop talking to them" is an age old tactic of those with fuck all further to say.

Despite your torrent of insults, I thought you were a bit better than that. Regarding Blair's remarks, his meaning was accepted at the time by most commentators......unfortunately, the social effects of unregulated immigration were not taken into account, resulting in the current political earthquake.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 04:13 AM

"What about all the young irish forced to leave Ireland "
Thanks to centuries of British policy, the Irish have been forced to leave home in their millions for centuries - thatks to the state of the now non-indusrtial British Economy, without Europe, Ireland would have been in dire trouble
One of the dangers looming over Ireland at present is, thanks to the swing to the right led by Brexit, and confirmed by the election of a fascist to the White House, the Irish living in the U.S. without a green card - tolerated by previous administration who realised the part the Irish played in creating the United State, face deportation, along with the Mexicans, the Muslims and anybody else whose colour or religion doesn't suit him with the combover.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:09 AM

Have you read the AC Grayling link I posted earlier, Jim? Save you looking it up. I'll post it again. How to turn a lie into the truth. Makes some very valid points and provides a perfect explanation for what just happened above as well.

Enjoy

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:19 AM

Thanks Dave
I haven't read it but will do in full later
I have a tremendous respect for Grayling
"he has been pretty comprehensively demolished by Teribus on this and other threads."
You have to be jOking - Teribs?
Teribus is a blusteriing bullying thug who thinks he can win arguments by talking down to people - a true graduate of the Donald Trump School of Non-Thought.
He has never demoished anybody with yhese tactics and the fact he impresses you puts you where you are
Jim ar

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:19 AM

Jim, what happened before for which the brits were responsible does not alter the fact that Europe and government from brussels, forced a recession on ireland, and forced many irish people to leave in droves,it was europe that forced the present plight in greece those people who pretend otherwise are deluding them selves. brussels is just another puppet for multi natiuonal capitalism.
whether britains exit will be better or worse for ireland depends upon sense rather than revengebeing allowed to prevail and an allowing the uk to remain in the eea

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stu
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 07:16 AM

"brussels is just another puppet for multi national capitalism.

Who isn't in the political arena? Trump is a billionaire multinational capitalist that has fooled ordinary folk that he gives a stuff about them, even as he pisses all over the constitution and populace from the top of Trump Tower; the US isn't even making political decisions in the White House anymore.

Farage is about as establishment as you can get, an ex-city toff that hob-nobs with the likes of Murdoch and Dacre, the very people we should be railing against but who the poor, hard-done old white folk of the UK seem to believe even after their lies, deceits and costing up to dictators and demagogues.

The alt-right takeover is the biggest con-trick since the Nazis but still people are too stupid to see through it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 07:19 AM

Wasn't the Irish recession 2008-onwards the result of the world-wide financial crash, precipitated by reckless, toxic lending by banks in the US, UK and elsewhere?

That's a genuine question, BTW, I'm short on understanding of the problems in Ireland over the past ten years or so. Not trolling or flaming.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 07:30 AM

I have taken part fully in the debate in this thread, akenaton, thank you. The reason I find it impossible on most occasions to engage in discussion with you is that you rarely say anything to which it's possible to provide a civil and constructive response that would further the conversation. I find the bigotry expressed in some of your posts offensive. I find your interpretation of terms such as socialism and liberalism to be so wide of the mark as to be laughable, you appear to be afflicted with unthinking xenophobia bordering on racism, and you have a way of championing people who I find detestable. There are plenty of people here who disagree with me some or all the time, but very few people would agree that I have "nothing to say." I hope this helps to explain my earlier advice to people that engaging you in any kind of serious discussion is a waste of time and effort. And I don't need to get gratuitously sweary in my posts. Annoying, isn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 08:02 AM

Well Steve "don't talk to them" seems to be your default position, You tried the same tactic with Teribus and Keith when they illustrated your disingenuousness.

Exactly the same tactic as the late unlamented Muskets... "don't allow them the oxygen of publicity" when confronted by irrefutable facts.

I don't give a monkey's what you or anyone else thinks of me personally, but what I say on a lot of issues generates a lot of traffic on this forum. I don't expect to be agreed with on a forum like this but some of the debates here have been highly enjoyable....and illuminating to those with an ideology which allows them to see light.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 08:10 AM

Enough. I'll talk brexit in this thread from this point on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 08:10 AM

"And I don't need to get gratuitously sweary in my posts. Annoying, isn't it?"

You should try it some time, Steve. It isn't funny, and it isn't clever but, trust me, it imparts a fuckin' wonderful feeling of release! 😜😄😎

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stu
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 08:13 AM

"...and illuminating to those with an ideology which allows them to see light"

With respect Ake, that's a bit rich coming from someone wholly dedicated to rolling back the enlightenment and consigning to the wastebasket of history all the freedoms and values our fathers and grandfathers fought for on our behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 08:22 AM

I think I could probably generate a lot of traffic by parroting the controversial statements of right wing politicians and the sound bites generated by Murdoch and his ilk but I would prefer that type of traffic kept to a minimum. Quantity does not equate to quality and making unsubstantiated accusations, unqualified statements and refusing to back them up with evidence is far from a compelling case in anyone's eyes.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 08:51 AM

No, Backwoodsman.
Europe and the ECB did not allow anglo irish bond holders to be burned[ because they were people like goldman sachs], they impose punitive taxes on ireland which caused the economy to stagnate, and forced thousands of young irish people to emigrate.
this was imposed on ireland by the european central bank, the brussels parliament enforced it, so forget this crap about european multinational capitalists being any better than any non european capitalists, they are all people who are looking after their own interests[ mein fein, me myselfers]and who are hardhearted selfish people

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 09:46 AM

Jim Carroll - 30 Nov 16 - 05:19 AM

"Teribus is a blusteriing bullying thug who thinks he can win arguments by talking down to people - a true graduate of the Donald Trump School of Non-Thought.
He has never demoished anybody with yhese tactics"

WOOPS Jim maybe I will get up my own "Reminder List"

But as far as demolition jobs go this ol' Teribus has managed to point out and prove that you are a barefaced liar on two threads just recently. Not surprised really that A C Grayling impresses you - he deals in lies and misrepresentation exactly in the same way that you do.

1: confidently and frequently repeated untruths wrapped up in catchphrases will persuade, while sober analysis and discussion will not.

A tactic used by the "usual suspects" on every thread that they "contribute" to.

2: A senior BBC news editor – Ah yes the totally objective and impartial BBC – I wouldn't trust the BBC to report anything factually, impartially and objectively if my life depended upon it.

3: Having achieved a very small majority of votes cast on the day, actually constituting only 37% of the total electorate (26% of the British population), they have run with it as vigorously as they can, claiming it as an 'overwhelming' demand by 'the people' that both mandates and binds the Government to take the UK out of the EU."
The Banner for The New European proclaims that it is the voice of the 48% - 48% of what? The electorate? Nope. The 48% they are referring to amounts to a lesser percentage of the total electorate and an even lesser percentage of the British population than those who voted to Leave. So it would appear that A.C. Grayling is quite adept at colluding with those who seek to bamboozle and mislead.

4: UKIP and the minority of the Tory party in Parliament knew they would never get a Brexit by Parliamentary means or at a general election; but at long last, having made life hell for every Tory Prime Minister since Edward Heath, they succeeded in getting one of their leaders to promise a referendum.

A C Grayling conveniently forgets that the British electorate were lied to and fed " highly doubtful if not downright dishonest statements" in 1973 and again in 1975 that got us into and then kept us in the EU. From that time onward there have always been vocal Eurosceptics in every political party in the UK. The fiasco of introducing the Treaty of Lisbon by the back door by Gordon Brown was basically the straw that broke the camel's back. Cameron promised a Referendum on EU membership in 2010 but had to renege on that promise at the insistence of his coalition partners, the Lib-Dems. The firm promise to commit to an EU Referendum was one of the things that won the Conservatives their Parliamentary Majority in 2015.

One unassailable fact is that the result of the Referendum on the UK's EU Membership was that the 52% of electorate of the UK who could be bothered to vote, voted for the UK to leave the EU. And A C Grayling has the gall to witter on about a "Coup".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 10:39 AM

I don't think there were any lies in the article I linked to but would be willing to be shown otherwise. Without deferring to expert opinion, something very dangerous to do in a debate, I think his grounding as professor of humanities would convince me that he knows what he is talking about when it comes to politics and people.

I certainly agree that we were lied to in the past as well as recently but, of late, it seems to have become endemic. Not just both sides of the referendum with empty promises from the exit camp and scaremongering from the remainers, but it is very obvious in the recent US presidential campaign as well.   In my opinion anyway.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 10:42 AM

Thanks Dick, that's one very simple view I guess, and I wouldn't care to comment on it personally.

Patrick Honohan of Trinity College, Dublin sees it differently - in a nutshell, excessive growth in the 'Celtic Tiger' period leading up to the crash, the same property bubble that the US and UK suffered, the same injudicious bank-lending practices, and a collapse in tax revenue following the world-wide crash due to a move away from traditional tax sources and an over-dependence on 'fair-weather' taxes.

Paper by Patrick Honohan, Dublin University.

I confess I've only scan-read Honohan's paper, there's a huge amount of detailed analysis in there and I'll try to read it carefully when time permits, but that's the gist if I understand it correctly. If I've misunderstood what Honohan is saying, I apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 11:14 AM

"WOOPS Jim maybe I will get up my own "Reminder List""
Please do - happy to compare notes anytime
That's what you do and that's what you are (want me to put up the list again to prove it?
"Teribus has managed to point out and prove that you are a barefaced liar on two threads just recently"
No you7 haven't - but in order to show you have, you have counted in a few mistakes that have been acknowledged and withdrawn
THe rest is vacuous nonsense and unqualified with proof, which makes it your opinion only - as usual
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 11:18 AM

"the fact that Europe and government from brussels, forced a recession on ireland, and forced many irish people to leave in droves,"
Utter nonsense Dick
The recession was entirely forced on Ireland - as it was on Britain - by greedy, incompetent and dishonest bankers and a Govertnment that was prepared to bail them out to the tune of billions of the taxpayers money
It as an established part of Irish history as is The Famine and Easter Week.Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 12:53 PM

"Who could be bothered to vote."

And how do you know that all the people who didn't vote couldn't be bothered? What about the ones who wouldn't vote because they regarded the referendum as illegitimate? What about the ones who couldn't decide? The trouble with your attitude is that you're putting all the non-voters into the loser camp. Couldn't be bothered equals they've given themselves and the remain side a problem, so tuff titty. Well an awful lot of those non-voters would probably be able to give you a good run for your money over brexit down the pub. Very presumptuous of you to be so dismissive.

If you don't trust the BBC, well where do you get your information from? ITV? Channel 4? Which newspaper, please? Not Al Jazeera I suppose. How do you decide what to trust and what not to trust? How do you select, on what basis? Or do you charge around the world gleaning all your information first-hand? You purport to know so much that you can can demolish all your usual suspects on every thread in which they have the temerity to raise their heads, but you never give us the sources that make you such a fount of knowledge, do you? How do you know we were lied to in 1973 and 1975? Who told you that? If you worked it out for yourself, well who gave you the facts upon which you based your conclusion that you were lied to? How do you know that over a million Cubans fled in fear from Castro? Were you in Cuba at the time?

If you answer this at all, I predict that "Daily Mail" will not form part of the answer. I would never be so presumptuous as to suggest that some of us may secretly be harbouring a suspicion or two on that front, of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 01:08 PM

We have been down this road before about those that could not be bothered. It is getting repetitive.
Those that did not vote for whatever reason gave up their part in the democratic process and also their voice. What they may think is an irrelevance because the only way to express it was by voting. Babbling about it down at the pub achieves a big fat zero.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 01:15 PM

I couldn't disagree with you more. The people who didn't vote for whatever reason still pay their taxes. Some of them will be building the roads that you drive your car along or helping to run our hospitals or emptying your bins. To suggest that they have somehow given up their rights, or a right to a voice, is a dangerous and scurrilous notion.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 01:33 PM

You have a fine line in drivel. When are you going to say something sensible?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 01:57 PM

"The recession was entirely forced on Ireland - as it was on Britain - by greedy, incompetent and dishonest bankers"
correct, that of course includes the directors of Anglo irish bank, whoalong with their bond holders [goldman sachs]forced austerity upon ireland nd caused thousands of young people to emigrate, and who did the adminstering of this the EUROPEAN CENTRAL BANK, ALONG WITH THE BRUSSELS GOVERNMENT.
anyone who thinks Europe is anything other than a government that represents the very rich, needs to cop on,and that includes JimCarroll, cop on, Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 03:09 PM

"Those that did not vote for whatever reason gave up their part in the democratic process and also their voice"
his presumes that the right to vote is 'democratic' in any way shape or form.
It is probably the greatest con trick ever perpetrated on society.
We have no say in what an elected politician does in any way shape or form.
They promises everything but are not bound to the promises they make.
Our Parliamentary is no more than paying lip-service to democracy - it is based on rhetoric - the ability of the most articulate and powerfully placed to sway the largest number of people at a certain point in time.
'Democracy' has altered little since it was part of the govenance of Rome and ancient Greece - Cicero, Caesar, Coreolanus....all that has changed is the method of persuading turkeys to vote for christmas
"You have a fine line in drivel. When are you going to say something sensible?"
And you have a fine line in talking down to people and ignoring what has been said - then doing a runner whan the going gets tough
"anyone who thinks Europe is anything other than a government that represents the very rich,"
Nobody has suggested otherwise Dick, but in the short term, it is best offer available to deal with the present situation - take a look at the mess that has developed since Brexit.
Society is desperately in need of change, but in the meantime, most of us have to take what we can get in order to stay with a roof over our heads.
What do you suggest as an alternative - Theresa May - Donald Trump - Marie LePen...... or even Nigel Farage?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 03:20 PM

an alternative that I would like is Jermy Corbyn. or better still TheBeast of Bolsover.
DenisSkinner speaks the truth, listen to Denis,Jim you should listen to Denis,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yINAvMtZ2BM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 03:37 PM

and tony benn,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWnpbEMMsNw