BS: Brexit again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 04:30 PM

....and if it walks like a duck....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 04:43 PM

"I sincerely hope that the American protests against Trump's presidency swell to a such a proportion that they cannot be ignored
That would be true democracy at work"

Please TRY to retain some sense of proportion Jim.....a few hundred demonstrators even swelling to let's say for arguments sake 10'000, would be as nothing compared to the numbers who voted to make Mr Trump president.      You are certainly NOT a democrat sir!

"liberals" don't do street fighting en masse, they prefer social Fascism, innuendo and personal insult.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 04:46 PM

Handbags at Dawn? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 04:57 PM

akenaton wrote: "liberals" don't do street fighting en masse, they prefer social Fascism, innuendo and personal insult.

Plus reality denial, plus gathering together on fora to agree with themselves and abuse the few who are foolish enough to disagree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 09:07 PM

Well I for one do not engage in conspiracies on forums. Ask Jim, Musket, Dave and Raggytash how many private messages we have ever exchanged (well I might confess to exchanging the odd one with Dave about my mum and pubs in Lancashire and with Raggytash about folkie venues in Cornwall...) Such an easy accusation to make about people you don't know. And say "fora" if you want to be affected and pretentious. Otherwise, join the human race and say "forums."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 09:20 PM

It doesn't require a conspiracy for like minded people to post in support of one another on a forum. My point is that you all agree with each other, apparently in denial with a range of actual events, and the people who disagree with you get abused vigorously.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Nov 16 - 09:33 PM

The people who get "abused" by us dreadful lefties tend to be the people who display bigotry, who make unsupportable claims and who lie. No need to name the four or five of you. Of course, we lefties don't accuse them of conspiracy because they're generally too bloody thick to conspire. If the cap fits and all that. Instead of moaning, as you seem to do quite a lot, just put up a vigorous and well-considered argument and take us on. It's good fun, sometimes. But whatever you do just drop the nonsensical accusations of conspiracy and stop making yourself look ridiculous. Musket and I often crossed swords, civilly, and we never exchanged messages. I love Jim and he loves me but we bloody well keep each other at arm's length. Go on, ask him!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 03:54 AM

Steve, for years "liberals" here have been bombarded with facts on many different subjects, they start off in debate but whenever they find themselves unable to find a sensible response, they retreat into either outright abuse in an attempt to have the thread shut down, or into a faux humorous dialogue between themselves which usually has no bearing on the subject under discussion.
This of course is a tactic to derail the discussion, their expressed "offence" is another tactic which demands discussion be curtailed.

I has become clear to me over the years, that "liberals" in general do not like to hear inconvenient facts, all their views are strongly based on how they think the world should be, not how it actually is.

Why do conservatives not suffer from this affliction? I can only suppose that their views are built on more sturdy foundations.
The media must share a large part of the blame as "liberal" views are propagated constantly to huge sections of the community by misinformation, quoting out of context and a warped view of morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 03:59 AM

"would be as nothing compared to the numbers who voted to make Mr Trump president"
Do you know how many Germans voted Hitler into power Ake - would you have howled as loudly if good Germans had taken to the streets to protest that "democratic"victory - a rhetorical question - I know the answer to that one) ?
This "democratic" victory will have repercussions world wide - not only do I hope this display of opposition continues and spreads in the U.S., but I hope it takes on over here - in fact, I hope it becomes a worldwide movement.
America has elected a racist, antisemitic, homophobic, misogynistic, hate-spreading thug as president - none of this description is disputed - we watched him proving it throughout the election campaign.
A man who has suggested at least six times that nuclear weapons are the answer to many of today's problems now has his finger on the nuclear trigger.
Democracy my arse - the safety and well being of the people are far more important than the sham democracy that enables a man like Trump - a man with no track record or obvious ability - to buy his way into office.
Our governments will appease this man, no matter whether he restricts his actions to his election promises or adds to them tenfold - he is now CiC of the world's most powerful state.
This persistent swing to the extreme right has to be stopped or the Holocaust will look like a minor traffic accident in comparison to what might happen.
Trump, May, Netanyahu, Putin..... and possibly LePen - not a world I hoped to have left to those who follow me.
I hope to see them out on the streets in their millions before these monsters infect the world with their diseased minds.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 04:17 AM

"Faux-humorous dialogue?" There's nothing faux about it. Typical of all lefties, we have magnificent senses of humour and find our intra-leftie banter hugely amusing. Just another arrow in our quiver. I'm so glad it annoys you. 😎

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 04:18 AM

Apologies for entering a little lucidity:

The current entry from the Oxford Dictionary says: The plural of forum is usually spelled forums; the plural fora (as in the original Latin) is chiefly used when talking about a public square in an ancient Roman city.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 04:36 AM

That's it. Nothing technically wrong with "fora" except that when you're referring to Internet forums it's bumptious and pretentious and quite likely to elicit a double-take from the more sensible if used in conversation. "Fora" doesn't even have the amusement potential of, say, "hippopotami" or "octopi." Usage is the main driver. "Forums" is normal whereas "phenomenons" isn't. When the English language nicks words from elsewhere we can do what we like with 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 05:17 AM

Good heavens Shaw you do get your knickers in a twist when somebody marks your card and those of your friends as succinctly as Stanron has done - why is that?

Your post - Steve Shaw - 11 Nov 16 - 09:33 PM - is a bit bloody rich coming from a member of a group on this forum who have legendary reputations and track records of casting out baseless accusations and allegations yet never ever substantiating your claims. When confronted with facts not once have you ever countered with facts of your own to back your case, instead you resort to personal insult.

Want to put it to the test Shaw? Then come up with one lie to substantiate your claims.

Bet we don't hear another word about it.

Typical "leftie", trades unionist activist and bully-boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 05:24 AM

Ah Steve, he must mean personal insults like "leftie, trades unionist activist bully boy"


PS Do you really require two "ists" in that sentence?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 05:47 AM

"Good heavens Shaw you do get your knickers in a twist "
Talking down from your mental hole in the ground again
"Then come up with one lie to substantiate your claims."
Every posting you make and refuse to substantiate with proof is almost certainly a lie - otherwise you would wipe us out by substantiating them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 06:18 AM

Returning to the subject,
Steve and Rag, what new information?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 06:49 AM

How about finding out for yourself professor, try reading a different newspaper than the Daily Mail, although I would suppose even they have had articles relating to the subject since June.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 06:52 AM

Well, ignoring Little and Large for a minute (don't they waste their emotional energy!), it now seems that the government, scared of a Supreme Court adverse judgement, are thinking of getting their lawyers to make the case that Article 50, after all they've said, wouldn't be irrevocable after all! That being so, they say that MPs wouldn't then be entitled to a vote in the Commons as the High Court ruled because triggering Article 50 wouldn't inevitably mean that domestic laws and EU rights would be changed. So they're going to the Supreme Court to tell the Justices that they lied about Article 50 and that brexit may not mean brexit after all! Talk about government by shower...

By the way, Teribus, you were whingeing only yesterday about how we remoaners should consider how much public dough these referendums cost. Made me wonder how much public dough the government's lawyers and these judges are getting paid for all this "let's do our best to subvert democracy" malarkey. Bet they're having a field day!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 06:56 AM

From my point of view the new information that has come to light after the referendum is that A) It was only advisory, B) should the vote go to exit the EU, there was no clear plan on how to go about it and C) many of the things said by both sides were blatantly untrue. I was well aware of all these points from the start but I appreciate that not everyone is as cynical as me and many accepted what 'call me Dave' said at face value. Personally I think to accept what any politician says at face value, even if it is portrayed as an official position, is foolish but that is just me.

Given that information and the fact that things like spending money on the NHS instead of the EU and restricting immigration were blatant lies, I think the referendum may have had a different outcome.

However, due to all the problems and bad feeling it stirred up last time I would not advocate a new referendum. I think the government should do what they are paid for and make the decision. Whether they will go with the wishes of the 38% who want to leave or whether they will vote with their own party whips is up to them and yet to be seen.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:17 AM

D the G
a vote in which everyone (or nearly everyone) of voting age can take part - was held on Thursday 23 June, to decide whether the UK should leave or remain in the European Union. Leave won by 52% to 48%. The referendum turnout was 71.8%, with more than 30 million people voting.
Where does the mythical 38% come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:25 AM

Well I would never advocate any referendums as I regard them as tremendously undemocratic and a dereliction of duty by the government we elected to run the country and to have far more of the expert knowledge so to do than the ordinary people. But we now find ourselves hostage to a referendum result predicated on a question that, it's becoming clear, was far more complex in its implications than the people were told, and about which even the government are getting tied up in knots about. When it comes clear what the "deal" is, and what the adverse implications of our leaving are, the decision must be revisited. If it becomes plain, as I think it will, that the brexit decision is taking us to hell in a handcart, someone has to decide whether we should continue on that road or not. As a referendum triggered this mess, it may take another one, with a different question, to attempt to get us out of it. And we need to know what the government is saying in its negotiations. We must resist the lie that "we mustn't show our negotiating hand." Yes they must. Democracy demands it. I understand that urgent matters of national security may require secrecy. We are not in that ball game here. The powers that be in Europe are all too aware of our hand already. The only conceivable reason for keeping negotiations secret from the British people is that we may not like seeing the embarrassing compromises that the government will have to air in public. Heaven forfend that we might even want to change our minds!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:32 AM

Let me help you, Iains. Slightly under 38% of eligible voters voted leave. Yes, 52% of the people who turned out to vote voted leave, but 28% of the eligible electorate didn't turn out to vote at all. You do the maths. You can Google the overall voting figures versus turnout. 38% of eligible voters voted to take us out of the EU. Not making any points in this post save to give you the numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:34 AM

The 38% Iains comes from the percentage of the total electorate of the United Kingdom who voted to leave (Actually 37.4%).

Now with the same turn out and a reversed result of exactly the same numbers and the result being for the UK to remain within the EU - you would not have heard a peep from those "remoaners" who are incessantly whinging now.

The electorate of the UK were given an extended period in which to register, they were given every opportunity by every means possible to vote. the result as you correctly state was 52% voted to leave and 48% voted to remain - a victory for those wishing to leave - them as could not be bothered or arsed to vote do not feature either way, they had their chance and threw it away they cannot complain now.

It is called democracy some can live with it others cannot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:34 AM

38% is 52% of 71.8%. Well, it is actualy 37.336% but I have rounded up.

Nothing mythical about simple arithmetic.

In simple terms it means that of those who could vote, 38% voted to leave, 35% voted to remain and 27% abstained. I have never commented on the reasons for abstention as neither I now anyone else can possibly know. The simple fact of the matter remains that a mathematical as opposed to mythical 38% of the population voted to leave the EU and it is now up to our MPs to determine whether to follow the 38% or try to decipher what proportion of the abstentions would back whatever decision they make. Not an easy job.

Hope this helps

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:43 AM

Any comments on what would have happened had the vote been different are simply fantasy. The vote happened as it did. It is known fact that 38% of the voting population voted to leave, 35% voted to remain and 27% abstained for a multitude of reasons. No amount of discussion will change that.

I have stated that I do not want another referendum. I doubt if anyone does. What I, and many others, want is an adherence to parliamentary procedure and rule of law.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:44 AM

Of course you'd be hearing a peep from us, because you lot would be crying foul, with that holder of the £350 million-a-day sword of truth Farage at the helm, and you would very likely get another referendum. That would be much easier for the leave side as there's nothing irrevocable about voting for the status quo. On the other hand, we've been told that the vote to leave was irrevocable (a lie, as we all now know, and the government are still wriggling on that hook). A seriously skewed referendum, and a disgraceful campaign on both sides. Yet you call that democracy just because you managed to squeak ahead. Well I call it the opposite of democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 07:46 AM

No Gnome 38% of the population did not vote to "leave" - 38% of the electorate voted to leave.

26.8% of the population voted to leave and even less voted to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 08:04 AM

I am pretty sure that I said "In simple terms it means that of those who could vote, 38% voted to leave" and then backed that up with "38% of the voting population voted to leave". I did, in a moment of laziness, say "a mathematical as opposed to mythical 38% of the population voted to leave" and I apologise for any missing out the word 'voting'. I thought that seeing as I had specified 'voting population' (aka electorate) twice people may have realised that is what I meant. I was obviously wrong. Still, as misleading statements go I suppose it does not have a patch on making people believe that article 50 would be triggered the next day, money put into the EU would be spent on the health service or immigration would be curtailed.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 08:54 AM

"Faux-humorous dialogue?" There's nothing faux about it. Typical of all lefties, we have magnificent senses of humour and find our intra-leftie banter hugely amusing. Just another arrow in our quiver. I'm so glad it annoys you. 😎 "

It doesn't annoy me Steve it just bores me. I come here for discussion and open debate it was always a wonderful forum for exchange of views......until the "liberal fascists" arrived, the majority of whom are from the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 09:06 AM

Bit of an oxymoron there Akenaton. A bit far fetched, even by the standards of the Right Wing on here.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 10:26 AM

I'm starting to get the feeling, from the majority of his latest posts that Ake is channelling BeardedBS, or has at least taken him on board as an advisor, rather like Trump & Giuliani.

Anyone else notice this?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 10:27 AM

"Typical of all lefties, "
Seems like the "I am a socialist" mask has been totally discarded - not before time
You were giving us all a bad name.
A gentle reminder
The misogynist, racist, anti-semitic thug that has just been elected to the White House is a "rightie"
Margaret Thatcher who, by her own indirect admission, led the nearest thing Britain ever had to a Fascist administration, was a "righty".
Her friend, Augusto Pinochet, who oversaw the mass rape, torture and murder of his opponents, was a "rightie".
Adolph Hitler, whos administration shepherded many millions of human beings, including six million Jews into the gas chambers, was a "rightie".
Basshir Assad, who has been massacring his own people and using chemical weapons on them for several years, is a "rightie".
Some of the most brutal leaders of the 20th century have been "righties".
So when you lay into "lefties" *a real Freudian slip that one Ake) - youi are disassociating us from all these monsters, as you.
You do say the nicest things Ake - whose knickers are you trying to get into now?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 11:29 AM

"Typical of all lefties" doesn't sound like me there Jim shurley shome mishtake?

I don't accept that "liberals" are lefties or even that "lefties" are socialists.
I don't accept that people like you are of the serious left at all, simply woolly minded "liberals" masquerading as socialists. Tied up in the tangle of non issues promoted by the media as "of some importance".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 11:35 AM

Greg, Bruce and I are pretty far apart on the politics front, but he does appear to have an excellent handle on the "liberal elite" and the Fascism they attempt to promote.
He also deals in facts which is a big plus as far as I am concerned, even if the facts are inconvenient to my argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 11:43 AM

"I don't accept that "liberals" are lefties or even that "lefties" are socialists."
You really do have oyur own private language, don't you?
'Course you don't - neither would I if I had just blown my cover.
You get more and more desperate as you try to justify your extreme right views
Nobody mentioned "liberals" - socialists are 'left' by definition.
"Socialist
a person who advocates or practises socialism.
"she was a lifelong socialist"
synonyms: left-wing, Fabian, syndicalist, utopian socialist"
Given your input to this forum, there is no doubt whatever as to where you register on the political scale.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 01:03 PM

For a start Jim you have issued a false quote.
Where have I said "typical of all lefties" and in what context?

You make things up Jim, I would be within my rights to accuse you of being a liar, but I don't believe in being personally abusive on a discussion forum, but I feel it is my duty as a member to point out behaviour which falls below the standards we should expect.

Try to engage brain before taking off please.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 01:43 PM

The 27% that could not be bothered to vote can hardly bleat about the result not being to their liking. The possession of a vote rather underpins democracy and retention of democracy does carry with it certain responsibilities for the electorate. i.e. the obligation to participate and vote.

IF one does not vote then the government you deserve will arrive by next post or shortly thereafter.

Thus endeth the lesson!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 02:06 PM

Please not that I have always referred to the 27% that did not vote as abstentions. There are many reasons for not voting and while 'could not be bothered' may be a reason for some it is not so for all of them. In the house of commons itself there are many reasons that an MP may abstain from voting and to carry that through to the electorate is only proper. No lesson can be taught to people you believe just cannot be bothered. Out of interest 'here endeth the lesson' is the traditional way to end a bible reading. It means that you have been taught an idisputable truth. The truth in this case is that we cannot make assumptions about why people did not vote.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 02:23 PM

I really do not think it is worth arguing about why people did not vote.
It is of zero interest. The only significant fact is that they did not
vote and lost a valuable part to play in the democratic process.
If I had my way voting would be compulsory.
You can hardly equate an mp abstaining with a member of the electorate abstaining. A private individual abstaining is showing a wilful dereliction of duty in my opinion.
Democracy was fought for-maintaining it by casting a vote is not some insurmountable task.
and D the G please do not try to lecture me. It irritates.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 02:57 PM

Someone brings up that people 'cannot be bothered' to vote, yet when it is pointed out that there are many reasons not to vote, it is of zero interest. Someone who lectures that voting should be mandatory and ends their post with a phrase that indictaes they are speaking God's truth is annoyed by others lecturing. Funny old world init?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 03:23 PM

The only point I wish to make is that voting is a democratic right and I feel the individual should exercise that right. That is why I have no interest in whatever reason a person would wish to surrender that right.
In many countries voting is compulsory. I feel that is too the good.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/jul/04/voterapathy.uk

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 03:58 PM

Voting is a democratic right and so is the right not to vote. Until such a time as it become mandatory everyone can make their own choice and should not expect to be abused for making that choice. Whatever it is.

I always use my vote even if it is to spoil the ballot paper but I would never assume that someone is lazy or apathetic because they chose not to. To deem that 27% of the population just 'can't be bothered' is quite a sweeping statement and one that, quite frankly, I view with cynicism.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 05:07 PM

Oh dear Gnome, someone who disagrees with you - how annoying for you.

I too couldn't give a toss why those who didn't vote - fact is they chose not to vote and that does not give the right to anybody to declare the intentions of those who did not vote. FACT is more people voted to "LEAVE" than voted to "Remain" therefore our elected representatives should respect that decision even although it does cut them off from becoming part of the "gravy train" they'd all like to bury their snouts in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 09:13 PM

No they shouldn't. The referendum was advisory.

Several,things, Iains. First, the fact that you choose not to vote, or even that you couldn't be arsed to vote, does not mean that you no longer have a say. That's the system, like it or loathe it. Second, I haven't heard anything about non-voters whingeing about the result. Third, abstaining can be an honourable thing to do, and it isn't for you to prejudge anyone's motives for not voting. You simply can't assume that non-voters are in dereliction of their duty. They HAVE no duty under our system, in case you haven't noticed. Fourth, we don't have compulsory voting, so just drop that one. Get a grip, Iains.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 16 - 10:47 PM

I rarely get annoyed nowadays. Certainly not by anything or anyone on Mudat. Life is too short. The fact certainly is that more people voted to leave than to remain. The fact certainly is that parliament has to vote whether to implement that decision. The fact certainly is that they have not yet done so yet. A lot of other comments have simply been speculation, bluster and invective by people who do seem to be rather annoyed by something. I would rather not get involved in that.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 03:39 AM

First, the fact that you choose not to vote, or even that you couldn't be arsed to vote, does not mean that you no longer have a say.

Interesting viewpoint! your grasp of logic must exist in another paradigm compared to mine. I suppose you have a voice when not voting by utilisation of subterfuges such as ventriloquism, telepathy or perhaps use of a ouija board.
Get a grip man!

In some rose tinted, treehugging, everyone is a sandal wearing teacher type world your view may have credence. However in the real world(of which I have worked in over 40 countries over 5 continents) I think you would find that if everyone gave up their vote the ensuing government would quickly become an Orwellian nightmare

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 03:49 AM

"Oh dear Gnome, someone who disagrees with you - how annoying for you."
Oh dear Teribus - your bout of insecurity seems to be dragging on this time, doesn't it.
Having lived under a P.R. system for nearly twenty years now, the first past the post system appears as totally undemocratic and excluding compared to the one we have here - archaic, in fact.
The last election brought a hung result which went on for some time - the Government finally took office having been forced to remove most of its its repressive and elitist-favouring policies - it now has to negotiate carefully with all the other people's elected representatives - nearer to true democracy that Britain could dream of.
The saddest aspect of the contest was that a Labour Party led by opportunists who put seats in office before the interests of those they are supposed to represent, were wiped off the face of the political map for the foreseeable future - a hard lesson but democracy at work again.
Would that our careerist British politicians could be taught the same lessons.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 05:01 AM

We have a democratic voting system and yet we are still on the road to an Orwellian nightmare. Disabled people being denied benefit. Fracking being brought in regardless of the views of people. Newspeak where do-gooder, peace loving and tree hugger have become insults...

Why all the invective anyway? There is no need. As the modern spate of parodied WW2 slogans tell us, calm down and hug a tree:-) You may find it more pleasant than getting annoyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 05:39 AM

Dth G
Treehugging is not meant as an insult. It is more a definition of a world view most adequately defined by the content of the Gruniard and the BBC. Those lucky enough to have had a career spanning countries and continents almost inevitably end up with a different perspective on events and a radically different world view. Inevitably it clashes.
Darwinism does exist and it can be brutal. Darwin awards also exist. Who collects on what is part of life's rich tapestry.


Anyway to make you feel good. If you study the logistics of fracking and also well life expectancy and well pad design, I think you will appreciate that for vast tracts of the UK it simply ain't going to happen, that is apart from the economic model being dead at the present price of crude.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 16 - 05:58 AM

"Treehugging is not meant as an insult."
Leeds (or maybe it was Sheffield) University once had a very fine Folklore Department.
Way back, a new administration, closed it, dismissing the participants as "a bunch of tree huggers" - an intellectual view of the definition.
Jim Carroll