BS: Brexit again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 04:12 AM

Is anyone disputing that as a fact?

Yes, it is disputed.

Not according to The Professor, The All-Knowing. He says that the government is challenging the legislation.

Not all knowing. Not being a constitutional lawyer I do not even have an opinion on the possible outcome, and am in awe of those who knew for certain even before there was any question of a court case.

I did not say what the government was challenging, I quoted their actual case as put to the hearing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 04:46 AM

Give it a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 05:56 AM

Absolutely no one said or even intimated that they knew that there was any question of a court case. The only thing that people have said they knew is that the referendum was advisory. Which is was. If anyone can provide a link to anywhere where anyone stated that they knew there was a question of a court case I suggest they provide it. Otherwise it is incorrect to say that anyone did such a thing.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 06:03 AM

A difference that makes no difference isn't really a difference in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 07:59 AM

BTW - I am no constitutional lawyer either but, before I 'dropped out' of higher education I was studying history, economics and British constitution and government. While being far from expert in any of the subjects I have retained an interest and grounding in all.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 12:02 PM

We do not disagree on any facts.
Yes it is a fact that referenda are deemed advisory in the legislation, but this one was offered as binding in that Parliament would have no veto. The legitimacy of that is now being tested.

I can not remember the SNP position, but the 3 main parties plus UKIP all offered a binding, in/out referendum in their manifestos.
Parliament did not challenge their exclusion from the decision in the year leading up to the referendum, and even the current challenge is not from Parliamentarians.

No-one was given any reason to suspect that the vote would not be binding and without Parliament being involved.
They were given an undertaking that it would be binding, by the government, in an official document delivered to every home in the UK at public expense.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 12:04 PM

...so yes it was advisory, but the government undertook to accept the advice and Parliament never demurred.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 12:11 PM

Yes, it is disputed.

You appear to be saying that there are people who dispute the existence of the words of the legislation setting up the referendum, which specifically state that it is advisory. And you seem to imply that this is a rational view, and that you are willing to entertain it.

No one questions that the government stated that its fixed intention was to accept the outcome of this advisory referendum, and that this remains its intention. The court case has nothing whatsoever with that, it is purely about whether, under currently existing legislation, it has the ability to do that without the approval of Parliament.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 12:21 PM

You appear to be saying that there are people who dispute the existence of the words of the legislation setting up the referendum

Why would I dispute something so easily verifiable?
It is disputed that THIS referendum was advisory because it was pledged that the "advice," i.e. the result, would be accepted whatever it was and without Parliament having a say.

The court case has nothing whatsoever with that,

Of course it has!

it is purely about whether, under currently existing legislation, it has the ability to do that without the approval of Parliament.

That was the pledge given for this referendum, that the advice would be taken and Parliament would have no say about it.
There was no objection to that until the result came in.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 12:29 PM

So, I think it is now agreed that the referendum (Plural referendums) at the time it was taken was advisory. There is no doubt about that from anyone now.

We do not disagree on any facts.
Yes it is a fact that referenda are deemed advisory in the legislation, but this one was offered as binding in that Parliament would have no veto. The legitimacy of that is now being tested.

It is the legitimacy of the promise that is being tested. Not the referendum itself. As per my point many posts ago. The government lied.

That was the last sticking point. It has now been removed. Just what is the argument about?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 01:40 PM

A fuller Lewis Carroll explanation

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 01:46 PM

I think it is now agreed that the referendum (Plural referendums) at the time it was taken was advisory. There is no doubt about that from anyone now.

No. If the "advice" was guaranteed to be acted on, it becomes binding and not advisory.

It is the legitimacy of the promise that is being tested. Not the referendum itself. As per my point many posts ago. The government lied.

No. The government believed, and still believes, it had the right to make that promise, and Parliament did not challenge it.
So not a lie.
It has yet to be decided at law if they were right to do that or not.

So not a lie and not even proven wrong yet!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 01:48 PM

I love it McG :-) Perfect example of a Mudcat thread...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 02:19 PM

It is not a lie that the referendum at the time it was taken was advisory. It is a proven and agreed fact. The government are now trying to make retrospective legislation because they have been caught telling porkies. I really don't know what else this argument is about. Have I got it right?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 03:39 PM

So what on earth were you talking about, keith, when you said, in reference to precisely that point, that "Yes, it is disputed"?

Whatever "pledge" might have been given by the government in advance of the referendum, that can have no legal force. Laws don't work like that.

Even if the government had said "parliament will have no say in this" - which it did nor - that would legally have no effect whatsoever. What determines whether parliament has a say or not - which still has to be determined - is whatever legislation is in force at present, as interpreted by the highest court.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 04:43 PM

So what on earth were you talking about, keith,

The professor does not, and never has had, the vaguest idea what he was, or is, rabbiting on about.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 05:08 PM

A "pledge" is merely a prediction. Predictions are by definition speculative.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 05:35 PM

A pledge is not a prediction. It is a declaration of intent, a promise with connotations of sacred or honour based validity. A promise on steroids.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 16 - 05:43 PM

What was that about a "veto?" 😂😂😂

Just leave Keith alone. If you feel like continuing this conversation with Keith, do yourself a favour and question your own sanity first.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 03:17 AM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 04:46 AM

So what on earth were you talking about, keith, when you said, in reference to precisely that point, that "Yes, it is disputed"?

It is disputed that the referendum was only advisory.
It was sold by all the main parties as a binding decision.
The people would decide, not Parliament.
No-one disputed the legitimacy of that pledge until the result came in.

Whatever "pledge" might have been given by the government in advance of the referendum, that can have no legal force. Laws don't work like that.

Not being a constitutional lawyer, I can not argue that point.
You may be right, but I would remind you that until the appeal it is still in dispute.
Do you have inside information?
Do any of you?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 04:52 AM

What could be, should be, would be is a rather meaningless discussion until the government appeal is heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 05:10 AM

I find the governments position rather akin to a used car salesman who has been found out clocking his vehicles. He is taken to court for misleading people but his argument is that the mileage on the car is what he promised it to be, regardless of the truth. It would be laughable if it wasn't going on at such a high level.

But, yes Steve, there is nothing more we can do or say. I'm out as well.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 05:16 AM

Steve, Dave, see you in the bar. Diet coke for me....

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 01:40 PM

All I have said on this has been factual.
You can not challenge anything I say.
Your only response has been abuse, insult, and now walking away.

Cabinet Office, 6th April, sent to every household.
"A once in a generation decision
The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union."

"This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

No-one here or in Parliament or the media challenged that statement until the result came in.
Parliament did not question it and all the main parties made the same promises in their manifestos.

Parliament still has not challenged it. The legal challenge was brought by private individuals.

I predict that the appeal will fail. Whatever the legality, the Judiciary will be determined to demonstrate their independence from government and media pressure.

Whatever the outcome, we all voted in the belief that our decision would be binding.
If our "advice" in or out was decreed to be enforceable and to be enforced either way, it is no longer advice.
It is binding.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 02:22 PM

All I have said has been factual.
The referendum was advisory.

You cannot challenge anything I say.
The plain black and white legislation is that it was advisory. Cannot be disputed.

"This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."
That was a lie by dodgy Dave and his mates.

Whatever the outcome, we all voted in the belief that our decision would be binding.
I certainly didn't. My belief was that it was advisory.

As to walking away. Yes, I would have, had I not been challenged otherwise.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 02:37 PM

Well done, BTW. I was suckered into responding good and proper :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 04:08 PM

No one is denying that the government said it would accept the referendum, keith. it was a promise, and one of the defining features of a promise is that it can be broken.

It was a promise to accept advice. The question before the courts is not about whether the referendum was advisory - that has been accepted to be the legal position. The question is whether the government has the ability to fulfil that promise without seeking and obtaining the agreement of parliament.

It would in fact have been possible to make the referendum binding - that had been done in the case of the previous referendum, on the voting system. But it wasn't done this time, and that was stated in the referendum bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 16 - 06:44 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 04:13 AM

May wants to use the power of 'Royal Prerogative' to invoke Art. 50. The High Court has judged that a law passed by parliament cannot be trumped by Royal Prerogative. That's the fundamental principle of Parliamentary Sovereignty on which our entire constitution is based, and rightly so.

The legislation clearly stated that the referendum was 'advisory' only. A promise made by the Prime Minister cannot, and does not, change that piece of legislation. Only parliament can do that.

You were lied to by Cameron, he made a promise he could not legally fulfill - just one of a long sequence of lies and broken promises by him - because he was fighting for his political life, and he expected to win and not have to fulfill that promise.

It's really not that difficult to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 04:17 AM

And, of course, Parliamentary Sovereignty (a.k.a. 'Taking Back Control') was one of the things Brexiteers voted for, wasn't it? Along with £350 million a week for the NHS, and kicking the immigrants out?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 04:26 AM

And, having been gormless enough to be sucked in by the lies of Cameron, Bozo, Fararse and the Little Scottish Viper, you're now being even more gormless by allowing yourself to be sucked in by the lies of May who, despite her weasel-words, is a staunch Bremainer, and is seeking a means of defeating and abandoning Brexit in a way that will leave her and her allies with clean hands, and without egg on their faces.

Watch this space...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 07:01 AM

Never mind, Toxic tony blair is riding in to save us all, as we are not judged capable of voting on such important issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 07:05 AM


Never mind, Toxic tony blair is riding in to save us all

I noticed that as well. Presumably because he feels there are not enough people involved who are certain only they have all the answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 07:21 AM

With his vastly inflated ego there is room for no others.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stu
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 09:13 AM

If Blair weighs in we're fucked. He's precisely the sort of person no-one wants involved in Brexit at all.

By the way, what happened to Farige the Garige's idea we could be like Norway and keep access to the single market? The Brexiteers seem to have developed an objection to the single market now. Was that more bullshit?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 01:02 PM

Backwoodsman, I think you are spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 02:03 PM

Thanks, Dick! I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 02:38 PM

Advice that must be enforced is no longer just advice.

You were lied to by Cameron,

It was not a lie if it was believed to be true.
And, it was not just Cameron. The entire ruling establishment including all the political parties were complicit.
Despite what you say, no-one doubted or challenged it until the result, and then it was private individuals not politicians who made the challenge.

Parliament was not to be consulted.
That is what the legal case is about, and despite your assertions, it has yet to be settled.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 03:00 PM

Nice observation from Micheal Martin - not someone I would take much notice of (apart from his miraculous achievement ing making our pubs smoker-free zones
Jim Carroll

MARTIN CRITICISES BREXIT BRAND OF NATIONALISM
FF Leader calls for greater urgency to tackle Britain's departure from EU
We will not join them in their right-wing ideology
TIM O'BRIEN

Micheál Martin has claimed Ireland will not fall into the trap of "backward-looking nationalism" as the British did over Brexit.
Vowing the Irish "are not going to join the English in their desire to repeal the 20th century", the Fianna Fáil leader used the occasion of the commemoration of former IRA man and later government minister Seán Moylan yesterday to claim "a hard Brexit is already under way".
Mr Martin said Britain had become "suspicious of outsiders and committed to the historically false idea that you don't need strong international bodies to secure lasting cooperation and prosperity between nations".
"We will not join them in their right-wing ideology of trade rules with no social dimension and no enforceable laws," he said.
But he also acknowledged Brexit could be tough on Irish industries which rely on Britain as a key export market.
He called for the EU to allow Ireland to suspend rules on State aid to support industries which take a hit as a result of Brexit.
"In the five months since the UK's Brexit vote the only things which are clear are that their policy is a shambles and that it is already causing real damage on this island. Brexit is not something which is happening in two [years' time], it is happening now."
Mr Martin said Ireland desperately needed a new urgency and ambition in Government to deal with the fallout of Brexit and other rising threats internationally.
"The unprecedented decline in sterling may soon be followed by new barriers to trade," he said. "We can't stand by and;let this slow-motion crash happen."
Mr Martin said the Irish nationalism evident in the commemorations held this year was "open and generous".
"[The events] respected diversity and promoted the idea of reconciliation," he said.
He said, the people of Ireland had shown "how to look to the past in order to help understand who we are and to draw inspiration for our future".
"This has been a powerful testimony to the fact that patriotism can be the mark of an inclusive, modern republic.
"At this grave, dark moment in world affairs we should never stop reminding ourselves of the republican spirit which has defined our modern history and should define how we face the future."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 03:20 PM

Keith, I once had a row with Musket on a thread, and berated him for calling you 'Thick Cunt'.

I'm starting to wonder why I was so stupid as to defend you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Nov 16 - 03:24 PM

Cameron knew very well that the referendum was advisory. If he did not he would surely be the most ill informed prime minister in history, which I do not believe. It was, therefore, a lie told at the highest level and the establishment were indeed complicit. Non of them predicted the outcome of the referendum correctly. What they did was take a gamble on people voting to remain and, yes, the question would not have arisen if that happened because no one would have had to do anything. They severely miscalculated and what we are now seeing is the result of this major blunder. If they had proved to be right, it would have shut people like Farage and his cronies down and they would have now been saying that the referendum was only advisory so the government should leave the EU anyway.

In my opinion.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 05:07 AM

THIS sums up the Brexit buffoons' arguments spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 05:13 AM

"It was not a lie if it was believed to be true."
You mean a lie ceases to be a lie if it succeeds in fooling people?
Extraordinary what you learn if you live long enough!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 07:45 AM

Yes, Jim, that was the bit that convinced me that Musket was, conceivably, correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 08:07 AM

BWM
Keith, I once had a row with Musket on a thread, and berated him for calling you 'Thick Cunt'.
I'm starting to wonder why I was so stupid as to defend you.

I must have said something really silly and wrong then.

Please identify what it is, or take back the insult and the obscenity.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 08:21 AM

Dave,
Cameron knew very well that the referendum was advisory. If he did not he would surely be the most ill informed prime minister in history, which I do not believe.

The legal case on whether it was advice or a decision is not yet finished, so Cameron might yet prove to be right.

And it was not just Cameron.

Corbyn,
"The referendum has taken place, a decision has been made, I think we have got to respect that decision and work out our relationship with Europe in the future."
("Decision" not "advice.")

The Independent 23 June.
"For now, both sides are, officially at least, working on the assumption that the British people's decision on 23 June will indeed be final."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/what-is-brexit-why-is-there-an-eu-referendum-a7042791.html

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 08:23 AM

Jim and BWM
"It was not a lie if it was believed to be true."
You mean a lie ceases to be a lie if it succeeds in fooling people?

If a statement is made in good faith in the belief it is true, it is a mistake not a lie.

The law has yet to decide if it was a mistake or the actual truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 08:27 AM

George Costanza agrees:

Art imitates life

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 16 - 08:31 AM

Cameron is already right. He knew the referendum was advisory as did all the other politicians. What he was wrong about was judging the peoples feelings and making promises he could not keep within the framework of current constitutional procedure. What the court case is about is trying to get that constitutional procedure changed. Those are facts.

I do not believe that they should be allowed to change the law just to suit justify that promise and I would have said that regardless of the outcome. The government are now desperately trying to find a way out of the mess they have got themselves in. Those are my opinions.

DtG