BS: Cat's hunting habits

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 07:13 PM

FROM LION: you can see from my name that cat and cattiness are in my nature. I must ask where GUEST dredges up his anger? A cat is first and foremost an animal. Animals hunt, kill, and generally wreak havoc on rodents and those types of creatures. However, they are not out roaming far and wide on killing sprees. Unlike some humans. Every pet should be spayed and neutered, kept under control. I really think that we have nothing to worry about as far as cats causing any other creature's extinction and GUEST you should rest easy in your bed, UNLESS you are some kind of rat.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 08:08 PM

all this 'black vs. white' argument! There ARE shades of grey!....cats are animals, much like humans are, and vary, as humans do. Some humans seem to NEED violence, adreneline rushes and confrontation...others don't. Cats *tend* to stalk and hunt and play at being wild, but not all of them do it on a regular basis. I have had both sorts of cats...some who will bring me birds and mice, some who are sorta like Garfield, the lazy cartoon cat, who makes deals with the local mice to pretend to chase them.

When we keep an animal in a confined situation, we DO assume some responsibility for its behavior and must often stifle some of its natural impulses..(like spaying)...if your cat or dog kills the neighbors rabbits, something has to give. Best to look for a pet with less....ummm....enthusiasm, or live where un-supervised animals are less of a problem. I cannot understand people who insist of keeping large, unruly dogs or hunting-conditioned cats in apartments in the city!

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: Gloredhel
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 09:07 PM

I have three kitties, a lovely calico, and two "mutt" cats (though one looks an awful lot like a Maine coon). One has a propensity for neighborhood rats and often leaves them outside my bedroom door or under the piano, but the other two usually limit themselves to birdwatching. Once, though, on a particularly cold night, the overweight 14-yr. old calico brought in a large lizard. A hunter at heart, it turns out, but needing really slow prey. And incidentally, my cat does not eat the rats she brings home, but on the very rare occasion of catching something else, it is always consumed.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: GUEST,Robin2
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 03:16 AM

This is a fun thread.

My favorite cat hunting story was posted on the cat newsgroup a month or so ago, from a lady in Canada.
She noticed her cat on the back porch, in "attack" position, butt up and wiggling, ears and whiskers forward, very intent predetory look on his face. She looked in the yard to see a very large moose! Just that time, little Tom took off, launched himself at said monster, and attached his claws into the moose's back rump. Moose takes off like a banshee is after it, with this little cat hanging on for dear life.
She said an hour later, back comes said mighty hunter with a look like, "I'd coulda whipped him, but he got away"
Like One and only said "cats have brains the size of cat's brains!" Gotta love em!

Robin (who has eight of the little furballs)

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 04:32 AM

Nice link, Clinton.

When I was a zookeeper (many years ago), I was responsible for a couple of dozen or so species of smaller mammals, including bobcats and ocelots.

That job convinced me that keeping wild animals in captivity is a terrible thing to do to the captive animals. Captive wild animals exhibit a lot of depressed and neurotic behavior.

One of the things I did to help alleviate some of these behaviors was to toss some live rats into the cat enclosures a couple of times a week for them to catch and kill. I hated to be a part of the killing of the rats, but the long term suffering I saw in the cats was worse. Those cats lived for the days when they got live food. days.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 04:36 AM

(oops. I represent the department of redundancy and repetition department.)

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: gnu
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 05:01 AM

You guys hit the nail on the head. And, CarolC, I can't imagine working at a zoo. I cringe when I drive by a zoo. I took some of my ex's nieces and nephews to our local zoo about ten years ago because I was the only available driver. I reluctantly went in with them. After twenty minutes, I had to leave with tears in my eyes. I think the old-fashioned zoos, with small enclosures, should be banned.

Clinton... I agree... squirrels are rats with bushy tails.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 05:45 AM

More

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: Mike Byers
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 07:21 AM

Joe, I live in western Indiana, in a forest area that has all sorts of wild life including bobcats, a few timber wolves and (now and then) a cougar. Wish we had more cougars or maybe a few tigers: it would keep the deer and mushroom hunter population down. If I could find a cat big enough to hunt racoons, I'd give him a home for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 07:37 PM

Lady Penelope...

I live more or less out in the country. My cats, are mainly house cats, but spend alot of the time (not then evenings) outdoors.

The reason he has the access to bunnys is because there are acres and acres of farmlands right next to my house.

He gets fed 3-4 times a day, and is treated very well.

As for declawing cats, I would NEVER do that... where I live, there are alot of foxes etc around... have you seen what a fox does to a cat... I have, one of mine walked home from the forest, with it's intestines hanging out. Back to our house. We took it straight to the vets, who said this was typical of a fox attack, and manage to save his life.... Had he not had his claws I doubt that he would have managed to fight free!

So, having seen that happen to an old cat of mine I could never starve a cat of what are at the end of the day his only form of defence...

I also had the misfortune to have some local kids try to kick and do various things to another cat of mine - again, I think he saving grace (apart from my dad) was that he got so ferocious that the kids gave up trying to get near him...

Guest - Fred...

My cats has the tendancy to eat pretty much 85 per cent of the rabbits - birds - etc he brings home. Oh, and by the way... there are hundreds and hundreds of rabbits around the countryside, near me... And as far as I know enough to go around the foxes... cats... and what ever else preditors on them... It's alleged we have a BIG CAT on the loose near us... could be the local mad people getting on a bit... but who knows!

It's animal nature fred!

As much as it pains me that this is so, and as much as I chatise my cat for being such a preditor, it is in their nature!

Ella

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 06:25 PM

I think that it is safe to assume that none of you are wildlife biologists or have background in any of the scientific disciplines that pertain to animal behavior. Well, let me spell this out to you: CATS DO NOT NEED TO HUNT. I know many responsible cat owners who do not allow their pets to roam freely killing things. Guess what, none of them have died from depression. Why? Because they DO NOT have to. Of course, I would be happy to read any scientific studies that you suggest would demonstrate otherwise. Also, you might look into local ordinances and fish and game regulations regarding pet owners who knowingly permit their animals to prey on certain species. You may get off on letting Tabby torture a rabbit, bird, or squirrel to death, but your "driven by genes" argument won't impress a wildlife and fisheries officer.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 06:35 PM

My 14 year old terrier was stalked by a humongous moggy again to nite.( See previous post !!)

This is victimising the aged dog. It was only my presence that stopped a nasty incident.

Neil Jenkins might be able to kick higher and further but .....!

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 09:48 PM

"it is safe to assume that none of you are wildlife biologists or have background in any of the scientific disciplines that pertain to animal behavior"

I was gonna say the exact same thing about you guest...

As a pet owner, I make it my business to know as much as I can about my animal... And to force an animal to behave against it's instinct is ABUSE, plain and simple...

"get off on letting Tabby torture a rabbit, bird, or squirrel to death"

Cat's don't torture... torture implies malicious intent... a cat has no such thing... You're projecting human emotion onto animal behaviour...

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 08:15 AM

Hammerite's two kittens hunt feet. All night. Even under a thick duvet. They're definitely staying in her bedroom at night. I don't want those ferocious beasts anywhere near my delicate little tootsies.

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: CharlieA
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 08:26 AM

ok - in answer to the original query - she brings home live things for her kittens to kill, in the absence of her own kittens - she regards you as them. she's bringing them home for you to kill. Our cat unfortunately has only mastered bringing in moths and slugs. alive. oh well. *g* Cxxx

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 09:40 AM

1.As a matter of fact, I do not have an academic background in wildlife biology, etc. However, I have worked as a volunteer at a state park for the last decade since my retirement. In addition to working directly with wild, domestic, and feral animals, I have attended numerous workshops as well as working directly with park personnel with strong academic credentials. That is why many of your comments are so laughable.

2.Please take the time to look up "torture" in the dictionary rather than creating your own flawed definition.

3.I am still waiting for you to produce a published scientific source that indicates that it is ABUSIVE to not let cats hunt.

4.Evidently my reference to the legal issues associated with cats killing certain species (i.e. owners responsibility) went right over your head.

I think that you need to make it your business to know a hell of a lot more about your animal than the ignorance and pop animal psychology that you have been spouting. It will save you a lot of embarrassment in the event that you ever get involved in am actual face-to-face argument over these issues with someone who is actually speaking from an informed opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 10:57 AM

I have a about a decade of experience working professionally as well as a volunteer with wild, domestic, and feral animals, as well as working as an interpretive naturalist in a park along side of park personnel with strong academic credentials. As well as with veterinarians for both wild and domestic animals. I have a stong working background in animal behavior as well as some academic training in psychology.

My opinion is that "owning" animals involves a lot of trade-offs. That is why I don't have any animals now. Many cats who are kept indoors do display some behaviors indicating that they have needs that are not being met. And no matter what the owners do, these behaviors continue to manifest themselves. Sometimes at great cost to the owners. The owners have to determine whether or not they can live with these trade-offs.

Most people don't live in areas where there are species that, should their cat kill them, legal consequences could result.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 11:03 AM

GUEST: I'm curious to know which state park you've done volunteer work for, as I'm wondering what the regulations are in that state concerning the legal issues you raise (as I'm sure you know, such regulations vary from state to state, and even from county to county within one state). Also, what workshops did you attend that have to do with the hunting habits of various animals, including or not including cats?

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 12:12 PM

Gee that's funny too guest... because in my 'informed opinion', it's you spouting "the ignorance and pop animal psychology"

So perhaps it's best to chalk each other up as dullards and go our seperate ways...

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 01:06 PM

In answer to GUEST's point #2 (looking up the dictionary definition of torture"): According to the Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, copyright 1973, "torture" is defined as follows:

"Noun: 1. the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure; 2(a). anguish of body or mind (agony); (b) something that causes agony or pain; 3. distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument (straining). Verb: 1. to punish or coerce by inflicting excruciating pain; 2. to cause intense suffering to (torment); 3. to twist or wrench out of shape (distort, warp)"

Now, I think we can assume that a cat is not interested in punishing or coercing its prey, nor does it take sadistic pleasure (in the sense of "sexual perversion", one definition from Webster's) in playing with its prey before killing it. Is the cat being sadistic in the sense of "delighting in cruelty"? Well, one definition of "cruel" (from the same dictionary) is "devoid of humane feelings" and, of course, a cat can't be expected to have humane feelings since it is not human! So, in that sense, a cat is no more or less cruel than any other predatory non-human animal, and therefore is not engaging in torture.

Indeed, a cat does cause "intense suffering" to a prey animal that it uses to teach hunting skills to another predator before killing the prey, but I contend that such an action cannot be considered "torture" because it is not done with the intent to be cruel (the intent to be "disposed to inflict pain or suffering") to the prey. As has been pointed out, it is done from instinct and from training by the cat's mother who in turn acted out of instinct when she trained her offspring.

Let's look now at the definition of "abuse". One definition is "to put to a wrong or improper use", and some people do feel that it is not proper to keep a cat from following its predatory instincts. Books on cat behavior will tell you that if you keep a cat indoors, you must be prepared to compensate for the lack of prey to hunt by providing toys and spending time in interactive play with your cat, since the cat's play is actually an exercise of its hunting instinct. In fact, there are instructions within these books to the effect that you should allow your cat to catch and "kill" its toy occasionally, rather than constantly keep the toy at bay, in order to satisfy the cat's need to fulfill its urge. Otherwise, the cat will, in fact, become depressed and/or frustrated, resulting in unwanted behaviors such as indiscriminatory urination.

But to return to one of the definitions of "torture" ("distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or argument"): GUEST, you seem to be "distorting" the cat's instinct to hunt and kill prey to "mean" that it is wrong and undesirable, and should be prevented in all cases. Others have indicated that they disagree and that, in some cases, it is the cat's prey which is undesirable; yet you continue to "overrefine" the "argument" that the predatory behavior of animals is somehow a moral issue for humans. So who is doing the torturing here?

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 01:11 PM

P.S> – All quotations in my post of 10-Sep-0, 01:06pm (EDT) are from the Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, copyright 1973.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 02:39 PM

"To cause intense suffering," and "something that causes agony or pain," are both definitions that are independent of intent or malice. Congratulations, you proved my point for me. Case closed.

And your discussion of the need for toys to amuse indoor cats pretty much supports my basic premise that cats DO NOT need to hunt and kill other animals. A responsible owner provides recreation for their pets and killing other animals does not need to occur. And as it pertains to Carol, I assume that somone with all the training she has can readily produce an academic source rather than "opinion" to support her statement that cats must hunt and kill. You simply have no support that it is abusive to restrain a cat from killing.

Regulations may vary, but nonetheless, there are legal ramifications in many areas for permitting pets to roam free and kill most animals. If you don't believe me, then call the local game warden and confess that your cat regularly kills game animals like rabbits, squirrels, quail, pheasant, etc. On a similar note, why don't you pass that information along to the local chapter of the humane society, PETA, or the Sierra Club.

I grew up during the depression when the ability to hunt and trap all sorts of animals was very important. After I got out of the army, I spent forty years living in several different states where i spend much of my spare time hunting, camping, and hiking. I have stalked and killed (with rifle and bow) everything from coyotes to Mountain goats. So, i have forgotten more about animals and the outdoors than any of you will ever know. About ten years ago i quit hunting and starting working as a volunteer at a state park (don't ask the name because they don't need any of you calling them). I help trap and relocate problem wild animal. I also trap domestic/feral animals and help to provide intitial care and eventual transport to shelters. And by the way, cats are very easily trapped compared to coons, foxes, etc. So much for your notion that cats are inherently wild and crafty creatures. The workshops that I attend have ranged from safety techniques, to species identification, to problems and policies associated with operating parks and wildlife refuges that are locate adjacent to urban sprawl. So, this whole debate is very amusing since most of you have very little understanding of domestic animals and virtually none when it comes to the outdoors in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 02:44 PM

PETA..

People for the Eating of Tasty Animals!

Here in Windsor, if I called anyone and told them my cat was killing off the local tree-rat population, they'd probably pin a medal on her chest!

"very little understanding of domestic animals"

yet again, seems to me I was about to say the same of you...

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 04:08 PM

GUEST says: " 'To cause intense suffering,' and 'something that causes agony or pain,' are both definitions that are independent of intent or malice." Absolutely true! However, GUEST, your previous posts have left me with the impression that you felt that cat owners DO maliciously intend to cause suffering and pain to the cat's prey by allowing the cat to hunt and kill. But whether the owners do so intentionally or not, I take it that it is your contention that cat owners torture prey animals by allowing them to suffer and die. Perhaps so, but what tortureless alternative do you suggest to keep mice from overrunning a barn or to keep rabbits from ravaging garden vegetables? Doesn't trapping, even "humanely", cause suffering to the animal that cannot escape and find shelter from the elements? Is relocation not a means of upsetting the natural balance in that new place?

Since you say that you were once a hunter and killer of animals, you have by your own admission "tortured", and not by proxy but directly. The fact that you changed your habits and are now caring for these same species is commendable, but I do not understand why it leads you to the conclusion that cat owners should not allow their cats to keep a property's vermin population under control. You of all people should be expected to understand the predator-prey relationship and its importance in maintaining a population balance in "the outdoors in general." Why is it okay with you when a shrew kills a mouse, but not when a cat does?

I'm wondering how far your respect for all life takes you. Are you a vegetarian? Do you allow roaches to roam freely through your home? If your child had head lice, would you tell her that she would be torturing them by using a lice shampoo? If your dog had fleas, do you tell the dog to stop scratching because they have a right to live on him? Do you stop cows and horses from swishing their tails to shoo flies away? I have to assume that even you still draw the line somewhere!

I find it interesting that you mention "game animals like rabbits, squirrels, quail, pheasant, etc." as animals that a cat should not kill with impunity. "Game" animals are defined (as long as I have the dictionary out!) as "animals under pursuit or taken in hunting, especially wild animals hunted for sport or food." So it seems to me that your objection to letting a cat hunt these animals is that it deprives the human hunter of HIS sport and HIS dinner! And here I thought you'd given up that sort of thing yourself. I guess you're saying it's okay with you if other humans torture and kill these "game" animals, as long as the cats aren't competing with the humans.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: Gareth
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 06:50 PM

Fine - all these dialectics on the hunting habits of Cats.

Now we have new neighbours across the road and thier oversize moggy has taken to stalking and jumping on the backs with intent to comit grievious bodily harm to the local dogs. particullay if thier on the lead (leash).

Short of picking the moggy up and pretending that I'am drop kicking for goal at the Arms Park what is the answer ???

I don't mind that moggy killing the local vermin, tree rats et al, and I'am damn sure any fox would think twice. But two nights running hes had a go at my 13 year old Terrier, and the dog is terrified.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 07:16 PM

And as it pertains to Carol, I assume that somone with all the training she has can readily produce an academic source rather than "opinion" to support her statement that cats must hunt and kill. You simply have no support that it is abusive to restrain a cat from killing.

--GUEST

I think you're putting words in my mouth, GUEST. I never said that cats must hunt and kill. And I never said that it is abusive to restrain a cat from killing.

I have stated my opinion as my opinion, because that's what it is. And I'm as entitled to it as you are to yours. My opinion, just for clarification, is that "owning" animals is a mixed bag. There are undesirable things that come with the benefits. That's why I don't have any animals.

Absolutes don't cut it, even in the world of biology. For every study that proves a certain point about something in the world of nature, there's probably a study refuting it. Biologists can't even agree on taxonomy. There's no way you're going to find complete agreement on behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 08:13 PM

Don't take the dog over there, gareth...

That's about all I can suggest...

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: GUEST,SharonA at the library
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 08:27 PM

Gareth, I agree with Clinton that a good start is to avoid the other side of the street when you walk your dog, particularly on or near the new neighbor's property. If the cat is going off-property to go after your dog, you could try some harmless deterrents such as squirting water at the cat with a water pistol, or shaking an aluminum can with some stones in it (or using some other noisemaker... maybe not a banjo, though; walking a dog while playing it is difficult!).

You may also wish to consult the neighbors themselves; if they're cooperative and if you ask nicely, they may divulge an effective solution that has worked for their previous neighbors!

Subject: RE: BS: Cat's hunting habits
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Sep 01 - 09:04 PM

Guest, you are so smug as to be amusing. Between working on farms most of my youth, and hunting for my entire adult life, I could easily match most of your credentials. I don't have a problem with your assertion that owners have a responsibility to be properly in control of their animals. But you load up your posts with all this tripe and then cap it off with some smug about how wise you are and how us poor unfortunates should listen to you. In my estimation you are just another of a long line of miscreants that enjoy starting a brouha and chuckling when others rise to the bait. In other words you get your jollies in your smug attitude. So let me just say that much of what you say, IMHO, is a load of crap, and I don't think it is worth anymore discussion or bandwidth.

Mick, who doesn't hide behind GUEST.