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Subject: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Tamara Date: 16 May 00 - 10:07 AM Hi there! I really appreciate all of the info posted concerning the history and origins of folk songs. Does anyone know the story behind "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean"? I know its Scottish and I was gyessing that ti might be a "code" song from the time of the Jacobite Rebellions. Any imput would be appreciated. Also, any other verses? Thanks! Tamara |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 16 May 00 - 01:21 PM The musician and folklorist A.L. Lloyd had this to say about a song called My Barney, recorded by The Watersons on their album For Pence And Spicy Ale: "A stage song favoured by Irish comedians from the 1860s on. During the 1880s, apparantly on American University campuses, close-harmony groups remade it into the better-known -and even more preposterous- My Bonny Lies Over The Ocean. (The) Watersons had this from Bob Davenport who learned it from a Frank Quinn 78." Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Linda Kelly Date: 16 May 00 - 02:49 PM My Bonnie refers to Bonnie Prince Charlie who escaped to France to avoid the wrath of the English . Presumably this was sung by Flora McDonald who was his main squeeze. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Murray on Saltspring Date: 16 May 00 - 03:22 PM I've seen this somewhere credited to an author and/or composer--but that doesn't mean much. It isn't a Scottish song; "bonnie", e.g., is widely used in the North of England. Can someone look this up in Fuld's book of World-Famous Music?? |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 16 May 00 - 03:43 PM Re; Murray's Request. Fuld, 1966, says it first appeared in Wm. H. Hills 'Student's Songs', 2nd ed (Jan. 15, 1881). It wasn't in the 1st edition of 1880. No composer or lyricist was given, and none is known.
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Tamara Date: 16 May 00 - 04:01 PM Thanks to everyone who responded! Very diverse, as usual. Ickle Dorritt, I'm curious to know your where you found your info? Thanks again, Tamara |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Linda Kelly Date: 16 May 00 - 04:14 PM to be honest I'm not sure, it was one of those songs that we learnt at school and its origins were explained at that time, although it would seem to make some sense. how true it is I would not like to say.Have tried to find out some more about it but so far no success. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Linda Kelly Date: 16 May 00 - 04:37 PM now then, had a quick search and it appears that this may have been dedicated to Bonnie George (James) Campbell who died in the Battle of Glenlivet in 1564. see also child ballad #210. This means what my teachers told me was possibly not correct -my whole childhood has been a lie! |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 16 May 00 - 04:53 PM Where did you find that? At the moment, my money's still on Bert Lloyd's story, but I'd be interested in more info, too. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 16 May 00 - 06:59 PM "My Barney" or "Bring back my Barney to me" is #1422 in Steve Roud's folksong index, where several traditional and songbook versions are cited (earliest songbook noted- 1872). In 'Sam Henry's Songs of the People', p. 290, the editors say that the song should not be confused with "Bring back my Bonnie to me".
It looks like a judgement call as to how the two songs are related. In my opinion: distantly- yes, closely- ?. So I can't say someone is right and someone is wrong. "My Barney lies over the ocean", 1919, in the Levy sheet music collection could have been inspired by either. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Tamara Date: 17 May 00 - 09:19 AM Bruce O., Whew! What a relief! Thanks for your input. Blessings, Tamara |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Wolfgang Date: 17 May 00 - 09:31 AM for comparison: Barney as sung by the Watersons. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Wolfgang Date: 17 May 00 - 09:34 AM A.L. Lloyd's note to 'Barney' on the Watersons LP: "A stage song favoured by Irish comedians from the 1860s on. During the 1880s, apparently on American University campuses, close harmony groups remade it in to the better-known—and even more preposterous—My Bonny lies over the ocean. Watersons had this from Bob Davenport who learnt it from a Frank Quinn 78." Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt (fedupwithlosinghercookieyet Date: 17 May 00 - 03:39 PM Malcolm www.contemplator.com |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Irish Rover Date: 17 May 00 - 06:11 PM My Bonnie lies in toronto. chuckle |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Little Neophyte Date: 17 May 00 - 10:52 PM Irish Rover, that is the most respectable thing someone has ever said about me when it comes to making up their own verses for this song. Little Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Sandy Paton Date: 17 May 00 - 11:24 PM Before this thread dies away completely, let me point out the song collected from the wonderful Cecilia Kelly Costello, traditional singer from Birmingham, England, (of Irish extraction): "Bring Back My Johnny to Me." It was published in 1953 in the Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society. It was recorded by Isla Cameron on her Prestige Best of Isla Cameron and by Joe Hickerson on his first Folk-Legacy album, now available only as a cassette (but with the booklet of notes)- C-39. The relationship to "My Bonnie" may be a bit tenuous, but I suspect there is one. Mrs. Costello's song is in the DT. CLICK HERE. For the Folk-Legacy recording, CLICK HERE. If either of those clickies work, I'll be amazed! Sandy |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Sandy Paton Date: 17 May 00 - 11:28 PM I'm amazed! |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 18 May 00 - 09:12 PM Ickle Dorrit: Maybe I'm just too tired, but I can't find any connection between "My Bonny" and "George Campbell" at Lesley's site. I did eventually find a link to a brief discussion of "My Bonny" in the Ballads discussion list, where somebody suggested a link to the Young Pretender; without giving any evidence beyond hearsay, unfortunately. (here). Steve Roud's contribution, here, seemed more convincing. The Watersons' version of Barney (as pointed to by Wolfgang) and Cecilia Costello's Johnny (Sandy Paton's link) certainly appear to be the same song, though no tune is given with the DT entry. The 1919 Barney that Bruce mentions is of course a parody, quoting just pieces of the familiar tune. To confuse the issue further, there is another song at the Music for the Nation collection, My Barney Is Out On The Sea, which appears to be an entirely different song (words Arthur N. French, music C. A. White; 1876) on the same theme, with a very Victorian Parlour feel to it. Without any evidence, I'd guess that this may be a "spin-off" from the better-known song, written to cash in on its success? This is getting interesting, and I do hope that somebody will be able to take us further! Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 18 May 00 - 11:16 PM Cecilia Costello' version, "My Johnny", is sung by her on an LP, Leader LEE 4054 (with 13 of her other songs also). |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Wolfgang Date: 19 May 00 - 08:48 AM I hate it if information is repeated as in my second post. SORRY. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: L R Mole Date: 19 May 00 - 01:11 PM I agree with the "My Barney" hypothesis but feel the song is in reality far older; my reference shelf seems to dispute over a stuffed purple dinosaur or one Mr. Rubble. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Tamara Date: 19 May 00 - 03:04 PM I'd like to know a bit more on if "My Bonnie" is English or Scottish. Every songbook that I have seen says Scot. and Alex Beaton (a great scottish folk-singer),jokes that when the English got a hold of it the song became "O How The Money Rolls In"!!! Tamara |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Scotsbard Date: 19 May 00 - 04:40 PM OK, thread drift warning ... but I've always been partial to the POGO version:
My Bonnie lye soda devotion,
(cho) ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: SINSULL Date: 19 May 00 - 04:48 PM And from my son'd third grade class"
My Bonnie has appendicitis The "folk process" in action. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 19 May 00 - 09:48 PM Is it English or Scottish? So far, Tamara, we haven't been able to establish that it isn't American! It certainly is one of the most-parodied songs you could hope to find, though these parodies all seem to have originated no earlier than the turn of the century, and I'm guessing (without documented evidence for or against) that song and tune both came to the UK from America. Until somebody finds real evidence of the song -Barney or Bonny- existing anywhere at all before the 1870s, I think that we have to assume that. Incidentally, Cecilia Costello's My Johnny, which Bruce mentions earlier (Leader Records LEA 4054), doesn't appear on the track-listing in the Leader Records Discography at Leader Records Discography (Please tell them if they're wrong, Bruce! They'll be glad to know.) There is a recording available on one of Peter Kennedy's Folktracks cassettes, though: The Greenwood Side-I-O (Cecilia Costello and Sam Bennett) where it is called My Barney (lies over the ocean).... Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 20 May 00 - 12:42 AM There seem to be two missing from the Leader discography, but I'm not at home at present to check on it. I know Cecelia Costello's song is there. I listened to it today. Her lyrics are also printed on the brochure that came with the record. (The songs were obtained from the BBC archives recordings.) What we haven't had yet is a tune comparison. This is frequently the clincher as to whether a song is really based an another, or whether it just borrowed a few lines from it.
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 20 May 00 - 02:21 PM The leader discography above of Cecelia Costello's songs on LEE (not LEA) 4054 is missing "My Johnny" as the last on side A after "The Handsome Cabin Boy", and "The Frog and the Mouse" the first on side B. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: masato sakurai Date: 25 Dec 01 - 12:12 AM The Traditional Ballad Index has this entry. ~Masato |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Coyote Breath Date: 25 Dec 01 - 02:14 PM Scots bard, Sinsull ever notice when one places tounge in cheek the serious threaders all ignore you? I thought the Pogo versions was: "My body lice sober devotion My body lice sober DC etc." I have all the pogo books somewhere (unless one of my children have absconded with them, they've gotten my JRR Tolkein boxed sets and my personal copies of Nosferatu. I believe they think they are helping themselves to avoid the 'death tax') I'll see if I can find the episode with "My Body Lice Sober Devotion" in it. CB |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Louie Roy Date: 25 Dec 01 - 02:24 PM ADD MY BONNIE LIES OVER THE OCEAN I POSTED THIS IN ANOTHER THREAD AND THE INFO I HAVE LISTS THIS AS A SCOTCH TUNE DATED 1880 WITHOUT THE AUTHORS NAME AND THESE ARE THE ORIGINAL LYRICS
MY BONNIE LIES OVER THE OCEAN,BR. MY BONNIE LIES OVER THE SEA
LAST NIGHT AS I LAY ON MY PILLOW |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 25 Dec 01 - 10:05 PM What we need to know now is where your information came from. As Bruce mentioned earlier in this thread, the earliest known printed version of this song is of 1881; Barney, to which it is clearly related, being apparently earlier. It would appear that no author has ever been identified for either song, and there is no evidence that My Bonnie is in any way Scottish. At this stage I see no reason to think that it was not an American composition, perhaps based on a vaudeville "Stage Irish" Barney.
I would certainly be very interested to see any verifiable information about its origins, as I'm sure would a great many people; it's not an interesting song textually or musically, but it's so widely known that we really ought to know more about it. The trouble is that so many people simply accept uncritically the myths about it (if it's a Jacobite song, for example, then I'm Atilla the Hun) and repeat hearsay as fact.
Toadfrog has now posted a set of lyrics for My Barney in the more recent thread: BARNEY
It may be helpful to look at them for purposes of comparison, though of course there is no guarantee that they have not at some point been mixed with the better-known song. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Haruo Date: 25 Dec 01 - 10:52 PM FWIW, the tune is used for La Lingvo por Ni, one of the most widely known Esperanto-movement songs. Also I've got a few parodies of it in English on my website; nothing original. Liland |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Chris Amos Date: 26 Dec 01 - 02:32 AM My mother used to sing me to sleep with this song in the 1950's, most people I know from that era report the same thing. I don't know if this is a late example of the "folk process" or if all these mothers obtained it from some popular commericial source. Allmy friends seem to have kept up the tradition and sung it to their children. Chris |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,django Date: 26 Dec 01 - 03:21 PM I remember being sung to sleep by my godfather with "My Bonnie", complete with ukulele accompaniment. This was in the late 1950s, in Hamburg, Germany, which, along with Chris Amos' post, leads me to believe that there must have been a popular recorded version in the 50s. That the song has music-hall roots surely seems more likely than the Jacobite theory. Django |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Dec 01 - 08:08 PM The song was popular in the 1930s as well as the 1950s, sung in primary school and in scout gatherings, especially the parodies. Its continuing popularity needs not have been bolstered by any particular recording since everyone already knew it. Sinsul, your son's parody was one of those we sang; I remember the green oysters. My grandfather sang it; so it was in the western repetoire at the end of the 19th C. and parodies were sung by my father who was in WW1. None of this helps with the origin, however. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Dec 01 - 08:33 PM The Sullaway Collection of sheet music, Univ. New Hampshire, has in its collection sheet music of My Barney Lies Over the Ocean, 1918, composer, lyricist and performer, Byron Gay, Sunset Pub. Co. I guess this could be called a "cover." |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Dec 01 - 09:02 PM Then there is the old, old version by that oldest living Roman, Marc Moskowitz: Carthago est Trans Mare Nostrum Carthago est trans mare nostrum, Carthago vastavit bellis, Carthago est trans mare nostrum, Delenda Carhago nobis. Delenda, delenda, delenda Carthago nobis, nobis, Delenda, delenda, delenda Carthago nobis. et cetera et cetera ad nauseum. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Dec 01 - 09:16 PM William Allen White, in his newspaper column, "The Real Issue," 1896, writes of the song being sung on the prairie and of its calming effect. This may be the oldest reference to its presence in the western states. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: masato sakurai Date: 01 Jun 02 - 07:08 AM "My Bonnie" is in The Scottish Students' Song Book (London & Glasgow: Bayley & Ferguson, 1891, 1897, pp. 168; with music), where the first 2 lines are: "My Bonnie is over the ocean, / My Bonnie is over the sea." Other college songbooks (The Most Popular College Songs, New York: Hinds, Hayden & Eldredge, 1904, 1906, p. 9 [title: "My Bonnie"]; and Carmina Princetonia: The Princeton Song Book, 21st ed., New York: G Shirmer, 1927, p. 133 [title: "Bonnie"]) have the familiar "My Bonnie lies over the ocean" line (both with music). ~Masato |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: waterdragon Date: 01 Jun 02 - 10:40 AM Check out Laura Smiths version of 'My Bonnie' on the Cheiftains 'Fire in the Kitchen' CD,no-09026631332.A lovely version,subtly different from any other I have heard. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Snuffy Date: 01 Jun 02 - 12:38 PM Didn't the Beatles record it in Hamburg with Tony Sheridan back in the early 60s? |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: GUEST,Heidi, Denmark Date: 08 Oct 03 - 01:18 PM I was looking for some information about this song....... but now I am totally confused. In my little Irish songbook I have this song and it says that is was written i Ireland in 1882 by Charles E. Pratt. Hmmmm!!! |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Oct 03 - 01:46 PM And the school favorite parody, "My gawd, how the money rolls in!" Charles E. Pratt composed "Put My Little Shoes Away," popular in the late 1800s. I thought he was American?? See this site, which may be fakelore: My Bonnie "Orig. a Scottish folk song, pub. under the pseud. J. T. Woods (words) and H. J. Fulmer (music). The composer's real name is Charles E. Pratt." "Pub. 1881." NO supporting evidence given. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Oct 03 - 01:58 PM The song has an uncanny resemblance to "My Bonnie Sweet Lassie," by Thomas P. Westendorf, 1880, in American Memory as American Sheet Music. Leave off the chorus, and the words may be sung to the same tune. Is this the parent? |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Oct 03 - 02:59 PM Lyr. Add: MY FATHER WAS HUNG My father was hung for a horse thief, My mother was bunt for a witch, I've got five sisters more in the whorehouse, And myself I'm a son of a bitch! Oh! All gone! All gone! The Devil it matters to you, and you! All gone! All gone! And they left me some fucking to do. Learned in Arkansas "by a young Mormon woman." From Randolph, ed. G. Legman, "Roll Me In Your Arms," #45, pp. 191-195. Reference is made to "the underlying Scottish original first given in Thomson's "Orpheus Caledonius" (1733), vol. 1, pp. 69-70, as "My Daddy's a Delver of Dykes," with tune." They goes on to say that the song is still sung among Scottish Gypsies, (Little) Gypsy Maid... |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: greg stephens Date: 08 Oct 03 - 03:04 PM This song is taught to French children as part of learning English. I wonder how long this has been going on, and if that might shed any light on long the song has been popular? Anyone know anything of this? |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Oct 03 - 03:18 PM The song has been popular in the States since the 1880s in eastern schools and at least since 1900 everywhere else. Apparently the Scottish antecedents made little impression in North America; perhaps because these originals were bawdy they did not enter polite society. The song didn't become popular until the 1880s clean version. Use in teaching French prob. 20th c. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Oct 03 - 04:10 PM Ed Cray, "The Erotic Muse," has the words- or at least part of them- to the song in Thomson's Orpheus Caledonius, 1733: My daddy's a delver of dykes, My minny can card and spin, And I'm a bonny young lass, And the siller comes linkin in. The siller comes linkin in, And it is fou [sic], fair to see, And it's woe, wow, wow, What ails the lads at me? Of course this doesn't help with the origin of the popular lyrics to "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean." There is nothing yet to disprove its American origin. Cray says a DeMarsan broadside and others may take credit for the song's wide currency in the States. |
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Subject: RE: 'My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean' History? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 08 Oct 03 - 06:42 PM See also the DT file HABEN A BOO AND A BANNER. For some bizarre reason, somebody has decided to re-classify this as "Irish", though Bruce Olson, who originally posted it, made it clear that it was Scots. Also Lyr Req: Nobody comin' to marry me A text, Slighted Nansy, appeared in A Collection of Old Ballads (1725); slightly before Orpheus Caledonius, but of course without a tune, as also are the two above. |
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