BS: Wall Street Protesters...

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:15 AM

Gentlemen, we see how easily agreements can go to shit, don't we.

Fuck!

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:22 AM

Yeah, it begins with silly children who don't want to listen, because they're afraid they might have to THINK, and they don't want to do that, and respond with profound rebuttals, or constructive 'thoughts', say mature things like "PHOOEY"....run away to go suck their thumbs, Watch T.V., and are entertained while their nation turns to divided chaos.....even their own party!

Makes ya' wonder, whose payroll these guys on?


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:29 AM

Much of the day I'm out at Westlake Park participating in the Occupy Seattle demonstrations, along with talking with local representatives.

What are YOU doing other than dipping epithets from your toilet, GfS?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:39 AM

Trying to keep you from drowning.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:57 AM

Crude and unimaginative, GfS. Not only do you think with your spleen, you can't even come up with a clever insult.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 02:09 AM

No need to, you've insulted yourself quite adequately....I'm not playing this next round of petty bullshit with you. Stick to the topic.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 02:32 AM

Boys, boys, boys.....

[be nice]

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 02:36 AM

I'm trying....!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:16 AM

Subsidising industry will NOT promote growth in the economy, it is simply a way of buying time.

Without growth, the system is fucked its as simple as that,

Please stop arguing about how to fix the system, your choices are extreme poverty, reduced standard of living, services cut, huge rates of unemployment etc, to re-set an economic system which has failed and will definately fail again in a few years.....or, accept economic an social hardship in an attempt to find something better,

The most important element is unity, the OWS movement is too divisive, too many ideas which alienate socially conservative people....the majority in your country and mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:38 AM

Well said, Ake.

Hey, how have you been doing?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:22 AM

Ake, you are correct in what you say. However, the boat you're missing on this one is that OWS is not politically driven (in terms of the movement). It's simply people saying, "I have had e-fuc#ing-nuff!"

Yes, it's starry-eyed idealism, and yes the OWS people are not united (except in being not united), but that may be its saving grace. The thing that broke the various movements back in the 1960s was that very cohesiveness people are asking for now.

I don't expect you to recall SNCC or NAACP or the then-rising Black Power movement, but what had been a fairly cohesive approach to 'getting the job done' was splintered by in-fighting and when ML King was murdered, the nail was driven into the coffin. Concomitantly, many people from the 'freedom' movement were also working to end the Vietnam War. They were the two foci of well-meaning people at that time.

The FBI was at wit's end trying to keep track of who's who in the world of what I will loosely call 'resistance'. The US government could denigrate the groups more easily because there were just two of them. I hope people learned from that. The OWS movement has a dozen concerns, each seemingly different yet each connected by one thing: MONEY and its abuse. Yes, the environment is in serious trouble. Yes, the economy is in the toilet. Yes, gay rights are not being addressed (hang on old friend, that's only one of the issues). Yes, poverty is rampant. Yes, the theft of billions has not been explained. Yes, there are separate laws for the rich and for the poor. Yes, wars around the globe are started for political reasons. Yes, there are multiple issues on the table. Yes, it's driving the Democrats, Republicans and Wall Street nutzo that no one will tell them "what they want."

My answer to the Republicans, Democrats and Wall Street is simple: You already know what we want. So don't bug us with small talk, something YOU want to engage us in so you can figure out how to attack us. We got nothing to say until such time as you get your head OUT of your collective ass and address what you know ARE the issues. You got the cops, you got the guns, but you ain't got us.

Basically, the response to Wall Street and their minions is get lost. We don't want to speak with you. You do NOT represent us, not now and no other time. Now, Wall Street speaking through Washington wants to establish rules for the fight. Really? We'll establish rules when the dust settles. Right now, it is not to OWS's benefit to establish rules. Rules will help only the monied class. We already know what their rules are.

That's my read, anyway. Does it make sense? I don't know. But I do know that the other way didn't. Fight by the other guy's rules and you lose. Something we all should remember: there are no rules in a street fight.

Keep well, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:47 AM

That's my read, anyway. Does it make sense?

You Betcha!

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 10:14 AM

"...There are those on here, who like to paint me as some sort of hostile creature..."

Geez, wonder why that might be!?!

Doesn't have anything to do with 8:40 PM or 12:22 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:29 PM

Sorry guys...just got in from work.

Brucie Baby.....you always make sense!,but we are just looking at this issue fron two slightly different perspectives, I despise the financial institutions probably as much if not more than you do, but we differ in how we would seek "reform" them.

I understand what you have written and it makes excellent sense, but in practice it could lead to the same people in power just with a police state in place to enforce that power.

I dont suppose there are many here more to the left than I am politically, but socially I am very much a traditionalist, and I believe that the vast majority of ordinary folk are of the same mind.
Their aim in life is to have a family, a job, and a little freedom, they are not interested in a superindustrial workhouse.

Inspiration and unity, not politics are what is required to form a new type of society....."You Betcha!!"

I wont be so hard on GFS Bruce....If Don is going to make snide remarks about GfS "dipping in the toilet bowl", he must expect some of the shit to stick when GfS retaliates......I thought it was an excellent witty response...(the biter bit, as it were).

Thanks for your good wishes, and I will be writing to you to let you know how things are going.

Greetings Sanity!....Leave these old "libs" alone, you put their blood pressure off the clock. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:35 PM

Bruce...right on!

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:44 PM

Socialized/Privatized


Come, all you union members
And workers in your shop;
And all the laid-off folks who dread
The day the checks will stop;
Employers paying three folks,
Who used to employ ten;
We are the angry Ninety-nine,
Marching once again.

Refrain:

From Wall Street home to Main Street, shout loud the clear refrain:
"They've socialized the losses, and privatized the gains!" (2X)

The One-Percenters at the top,
With greed their only aim,
Have done their best to hide the way
They've played their selfish game.
So secretly they've tweaked the rules,
To keep us in the dark;
But now we're waking from our sleep,
And gathering in the park.


Refrain

When profits rise so high, you see,
And wages stay so low,
It's obvious the powers that be
Just don't want us to know.
As Joseph Stiglitz put it,
In words so clear and plain,
They socialize the losses,
But privatize the gain.


Last Refrain:

From Wall Street home to Main Street, shout loud the clear refrain:
"The people take the losses, the bosses take the gains!" (2X)



©2011 Annie Storr & Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 01:19 PM

I think the reason that GfS and Ake keep attacking me is because I am not a defeatist. I'm not content to sit in the corner and whine.

I'm out and DOING!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 01:57 PM

That is an excellent song, Bob. Applause for the two of you and best wishes. Real good.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 02:34 PM

Union LEADERSHIP is as guilty as the Wall Street CEOs...


"A labor leader in Chicago is expected to receive pension payments of nearly $500,000 a year, while another could get about $438,000 a year, according to reports Wednesday.
The Chicago Tribune and WGN-TV, which obtained information about union pension benefits during a joint investigation, said at least eight union officials in Chicago were eligible for what were described as inflated city pensions on top of union pensions for the same period of employment."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44872639/ns/us_news-life/

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 02:40 PM

No, Don, that is definitely not why you and they don't get along, and you flatter yourself in imagining it is. The only way you guys could get along, IMO, would be if you met each other in real life, rather than through a remote device such as a computer, and you got to know each other as real people...and related on a great variety of levels rather than just fighting about politics. You would probably get along much better in that case. I can't guarantee it...but the odds would be greatly improved.

Remember: "politics is the Great Divider" (I said that) Its very premise is to divide and conquer. It lives on conflict (often even while preaching the gospel of "unity").

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:04 PM

"Union LEADERSHIP is as guilty as the Wall Street CEOs..."



If the facts are as stated in the article, BB, you are correct in being aghast. That said, what point are you making?

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:26 PM

"
Come, all you union members
And workers in your shop;
"

Shouldn't the Union members hold heir OWN leadership to ( at least) the standards they are told to hold the Corporations'?

By failing to do so, aren't they putting forth a double standard, that "Those who I support should not have to play by the same rules that those I disagree with do."?

The same reason I posted Obama getting more Corporate money than Bush or McCain. There is a tendency here to complain about the flaws of the other side while ignoring greater examples in those that are supported.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:29 PM

last was mine...



"
Come, all you union members
And workers in your shop;
"

Shouldn't the Union members hold heir OWN leadership to ( at least) the standards they are told to hold the Corporations'?

By failing to do so, aren't they putting forth a double standard, that "Those who I support should not have to play by the same rules that those I disagree with do."?

The same reason I posted Obama getting more Corporate money than Bush or McCain. There is a tendency here to complain about the flaws of the other side while ignoring greater examples in those that are supported.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 04:37 PM

Well BeeBee, several things.

1.If one actually reads the article cited, it was the Illinois Legislature that created this farce, not the Unions, so perhaps your outrage should be directed at them.

2. Here we have 2 or 3 individuals possibly getting between $300K & $500K. The corporate princes you love and defend regularly get MANY TIMES that per anum at separation PLUS multi-million dollar "bonuses" each year while employed.

As just one example of hundreds, General Motors' head Rick Wagoner got a $20 million retirement package as a reward for driving the company into bankruptcy.

Its a difference in kind, as well as in degree.

Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:55 PM

Well, this thread being about OWS, you won't hear too much from either 'side' in the turmoil. OWS doesn't really care which party or persuasion the crooks are purporting to be with or people are assuming they're from. That should be fairly clear by now, imo. It's news, but so what? Been going on for decades. And soon it will have to come to a full stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 06:42 PM

I'm afraid I have to disagree, Little Hawk.

When two people are face-to-face, just by that very proximity, they are generally forced to act in a civilized manner. NOT to do so could result in their having to have a lot of dental work done, that is, if they behave in the same manner that some people do here on Mudcat. Here, hiding safely behind the anonymity of a "GUEST" moniker, they can freely say anything they want without fear of consequences. Therefore, especially in the case of "GUESTS," what they feel free to say behind this screen of anonymity may be more revealing of who they really are than if you were sitting across the table from them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 06:51 PM

By the way--

Politics:    def.

A battle of selfish interests masquerading as a conflict of lofty principles.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 06:55 PM

If yer gonna quote Ambrose Bierce, do it right:

POLITICS, n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles; The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:01 PM

I didn't know that was Ambrose Bierce. I hear it on the radio yesterday and jotted it just down as I heard it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:56 PM

Been gone all day but:

Ake,

No, you don't seem to understand that if the US doesn't subsidize industries (not CEO's salaries) then China or India, both who are perfectly willing to do so, will take them... In the late 70's the Japanese subsidized their steel industry and guess what??? The US lost it's entire steel industry... I'm not willing to let other countries, either from currency manipulation or subsidies, steal any more of our jobs...

brucie,

You got it right... The corporate shills and apologists want to box *US* into their game... Screw them... They are going to have to come to *US*... Don't expect "white papers" from OWS... We aren't interested in the details... That's up to Congressional staffers... We just want to change the culture and the conversation... We do that and the details will take care of themselves...

bb,

There is a strong correlation between union busting and stagnated wages be the working class... Using anecdotal stories is what "management" always fall back on when they have no other reason to explain why they hate unions... Management is out to steal people's labor... Theft!!!

Don,

Keep on truckin'...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:13 PM

Fantastic song, where can I get the tune?

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM

Well, that there radio feller shoulda given the proper attribution, Don.
Here's another of Bierce's:

POLITICIAN, n. An eel in the fundamental mud upon which the superstructure of organized society is reared. When he wriggles he mistakes the agitation of his tail for the trembling of the edifice. As compared with the statesman, he suffers the disadvantage of being alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:29 PM

I posted this somewhere just recently, but I think it merits repeating (came up with this one on my own):

politics:   etymology

Compound word, composed of

Ex, meaning "has-been," and Ticks, meaning "blood-sucking vermin."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 08:51 PM

You're not getting my drift, Don. But I bet if we were sitting at a table somewhere, you would...not because we were forced to act in a civilized manner, but because our natural inclination in the presence of another REAL human being instead of some words on a computer screen would make us more aware of our own behaviour. The same goes for if you and GfS were sitting at a table together. Your natural inclinations would probably result in some far more tolerant conversations than is the case here. Here it's safe for you to just stay angry over your personal fantasy of what GfS is like, treasure your dislike, build it, chew on it, and keep harping on it. You enjoy your anger. It makes you feel good and righteous, and you chew on it and keep reliving it, and telling us all how awful GfS is and how much your anger is justified. It becomes a self-amplifying habit, like feedback.

Sitting at a table, though, you would almost immediately find out that GfS is not who you think he is at all...not the image in your mind. And I think you'd then both act in a civilized manner...because, for one thing, your curiosity about the other person would impel you too.

It's not just "safe" for GfS or someone else you don't like to hide behind their computer screen here, Don. It's equally safe for you too. And for me. And that's why we all get a bit carried away from time to time and say things we probably wouldn't when face to face.

Everything you say to me about GfS amounts to an effort on your part to just persuade me that GfS is "a bad person" who deserves your contempt. Ain't gonna work, Don. I've spoken to GfS in real life, I know that person beyond some words on a screen, and I therefore don't buy that version of who GfS is. GfS isn't a bad person, neither are you, and neither am I.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM

I DO get your drift, Little Hawk. But I'm certain that GfS would NOT have the guts to say the same kind of childishly insulting things to me face-to-face that he does behind the anonymity of his computer screen. Not because I would beat the crap out of him if he did (I am far too civilized for that), but because I'm looking at HIM, not his words on a computer screen.

Behind the screen, he can feel "detached" from his childish insults. In person, he can't. He has to "own" them.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:18 PM

Ditto, Don...

GfinS talks out of both sides of her mouth... She takes on Libertarian/Lyndon LaRouche policy positions without any thought and then when she is called on them to explain, attacks the folks who ask her to explain???

And yeah, Don is correct... She wouldn't have the balls to say stuff to Don or me face-to-face that she feels perfectly okay to hit the "submit" button and let some rather insensitive and childish get posted...

A little less cute hostility and a little more cognizant thinking would be just fine but back her into a corner on her policy positions and its either juvenile responses or another blue clicky to a song???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:28 PM

I, as usual, mean no offence/offense to anyone: Is this thread about the OWS or not? IF so, let us continue on. If not. WTF is GfS?

Man, I need something to smoke, know what I mean, Vern?

Just noticed I missed the top piece of the colon there. Damned good thing I'm not a surgeon.

Love and peece/peice/pease/ relaxation to all.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:29 PM

Dam, Hoover,

That was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:35 PM

Exactly, brucie...

Lets have a f'n serious discussion about real policies that effect the entire planet...

That's what OWS is all about...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:38 PM

Bingo, Bobert. I just heard on another thread the you ain't Black. When did THAT happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM

I ain't black??? Sheet fire... Lemme go look in the mirror... I'll get back to ya'll...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:46 PM

Uh.....are you okay, Brucie?

By the way, Bobert, I missed it on the other thread, but I want to heartily congratulate you on your recent triumph! Good going!

Now, back to our regular broadcast.....

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 09:57 PM

Thanks, Don...

So now back to out regularly scheduled discussion about OWS...

Here in Charlotte it's Saturday but we have a bout 35 camped out in front on the court house...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,99
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 10:16 PM

I have to know before I catch a few zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzs, are th

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 11:59 PM

Bobert!
Is it true that you could say "I was born a poor black child..."?



Sorry. One of my all time fave movies.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 06:21 AM

Sorry to bring this discussion back to Occupy Wall Street, but here is a link to a YouTube video of me performing at OWS in New York this past Friday, October 7, 2011. I am playing my wonderful little Felix the Cat Martin guitar.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 09:17 AM

I liked that Steve Martin line myself, TIA...

I don't know what thread it is on but in spite of history as a skinny white guy living purdy much in the black community for many years I is still a skinny white guy...

Great union song, Steve... Keep 'um comin'...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 02:14 PM

Short of creating a real revolution in this country--which is extremely unlikely--- a protest can further its goals most effectively by influencing votes. I'm not suggesting that the OWS should affiliate with either party; rather they should try to exert control on who gets elected in both parties. An OWI coalition in congress could be an effective voice; even if it isn't as mellifluous as someone standing on a street corner singing protest songs with a banjo.

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 02:20 PM

Suffet... excellent!

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 06:30 PM

300. And I gather the local equivalent of bulldozers go in at 7 am local time