BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 01:46 PM

lots OF HEALING!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:03 PM

I came back, chiefly to stand up for GeorgianSilver, whose life to date it a pretty good testiment to the healing and beneficial effects of applied Christianity. And while I am at it I should say something about WYSIWYG, whose life is committed to giving to those in physical, spiritual, and emotional needs of others, as a testament of her faith.

For Christians, this is what it's about--finding in faith the strength to heal oneself, and finding in faith the strength to help others.

Merry Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:07 PM

As long as it makes you feel good!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,JESUS
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:14 PM

Is that all? I thought for a moment there I'd be asked to squeeze into a test tube or submit to being prodded and poked as if I were to be crucified all over again, this time in the name of science!

Healing? No problem. But you both know how it works. "First seek the kingdom of God and all these things will be provided unto you" (see Matthew 6:25-34) Ready to do that? And not everything you wish for is actually good for you or will bring you the happiness you think it will. So some things God the Father, who knows you better than you know yourself, will not be giving you.

As for walking on water, been there, done that. And it was for a very specific reason and for a very specific set of people - the Apostles. Go and check it out. I did lots of other stuff as well, the blind walked, the deaf heard, lepers got well. And some people believed Me back then while others - even ones who saw it with their own eyes - called Me a blasphemer! I ask of you! My bet is if I were to do the same stuff again I'd get the same results. Some people's heads are so full of 'facts' that they will never be able to see Me.

If I were to walk on your pool and be visible to many people at once it would also mean it would be My second coming (you can read about it in the Gospels). I'd better warn you though, when that happens, you'd better be ready, as it'll decide your future once and for all. Are you still sure you're ready to face Me? I cannot reveal the time or the day (check what the Gospels say about that as well - God the Father will be deciding that] and 'it's not given for man to know'. When it happens, it happens. I'd just advise being ready. We have been dropping some rather heavy hints of late though, for those with eyes to see them.

If you want your wished granted, first discover what God the Father's plan is for you. You can start doing this by reading the Bible (I've put most of it down in there) and call on Me personally and sincerely to come into your life. Don't knock it till you've tried it. Your wishes will be granted as long as they are in line with God's plan for you. Don't expect to get just any old thing you ask for. Would you hand your toddler a vat of sulphuric acid just because they insisted on having it and thought it'd make them the happiest toddler in the world? Didn't think so. Well then, if "you, who are evil, know how to give your children good gifts, so too the Father in heaven knows how to give good gifts to those who ask Him". Here's a tip - anything We ask you to do in the Bible is also a Promise. If We asked you to do it and didn't provide you with the means, We'd look a bit silly, wouldn't We? Here's another tip if you're asking Us for something - see Matthew 6:19-24

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:17 PM

Guest Jesus, lift my flu, wouldja? If you do it ten minutes, I will endorse you in every thread I post to for the next ten days.

If you do it in half-an-hour, I'll endorse you for five days.

An hour, 2.5 days.

Otherwise, it's Harvey the Rabbit for you, pal.


;>)

GS: You and I comne from different poles, belief wise; but as you seek right action guided by good principles, you are OK in my book.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:20 PM

Hey Guest Jesus, that Aramaic-to-English spellchecker's a bitch, isn't it? Thanks for letting it have free will, though.

Nice to see You again. Say hi to Dad for me,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 02:24 PM

Well, I am following Luke 22:36...

36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.



I've got my sword. Getting a little cold, though.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 03:22 PM

Well, my son's been very disobedient so, like its says in Deuteronomy, I'm going to take him to the edge of the village and stone him to death. That'll teach him.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 03:25 PM

To paraphrase there's a quote { and misquote } for every purpose under heaven. Like - "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone....."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 03:35 PM

Here we have a hooman beeink who not only BELIEVES in JEsus, he posts as him, and uses that little sleight of post to suddenly impose a whole belief system about the universe, moral strictures, unlimited personal authority, the right to claim miraculous powers without evidence, and personal imortality of the sort that would have made Ponce de Leon cream in his tin suit.

Gotta tell ya, it's about as impressive as a full-blown ritual curse from a Juju man in full costume.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 03:58 PM

Isn't there a line in the Bible about "graven images"? Ah, yes...so there is. I wouldn't be surprised if impersonating a Savior might fall into that class. Not even a good job of it, what with all the disclaimers. "Oh, I already did THAT!" "Can't do THAT until **IT'S TIME** for 2nd coming."
"You can start doing this by reading the Bible ..." *tsk*, that's the very authority some of us are questioning! You want me to read it again? I tried to explain to some door-knockers awhile back that if I am not convinced that the bible IS final authority, how will more verses from it assure me?

*sigh* sorry, JesusTroll, but you guys just don't get it. Asking NON-believers to "accept, in order to believe" is a circular argument!. There are reasons why we doubt, and pretty good reasons, too. In order to overcome sincere, thoughtful doubters, you will need something beyond just "read the bible and call on Me personally and sincerely to come into your life." That's an emotional appeal, not the logical & fact-filled one it would take.

Now...could you do us a favor and NOT preach in a forum not suited for that sort of thing? There are a number of good, committed Christians here who have worked out a better way to 'witness'.

thankyouverymuch

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 05:31 PM

Flu's still lingering on, amigo. You're rabbit-fur.



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 06:22 PM

There are a number of good, committed Christians here who have worked out a better way to 'witness'.

Friends, bear with me for a moment. I want to try to relate something I was thinking about earlier, in terms both non-Christians and Christians can relate to, that goes right to that point.

It's about witnessing. First, I'll commit my usual me-first sin of not looking up the Bible verses about sharing the Gospel, which verses many people use to justify the kind of unappreciated proselytizing so many people think is the norm. Georgiansilver is correct that part of the faith is the expectation of sharing it with others, but evangelization-by-words is NOTNOTNOT the only form in which we are expected to do that, and for many, it's the LAST thing they ought to try!

Fulfilling the expectation varies according to the spiritual gifts of the believer-- I, for instance, am a terrible evangelizer-by-words, whereas my good friend and band-founder Ed is GREAT at it with just the light touch that lets the uninterested shrug it off with a friendly grin. He can walk up to a perfect stranger-- seen it happen-- and strike up a non-judgmental, inoffensive chat about church, Jesus, salvation, the whole magilla. I've SEEN him do this-- and he never offends even those who you would think would be royally pissed off. It's just his gift. Mine, as MTed mistakenly credits me upthread, is a different gift, maybe the gift of loving openly and well and warmly, or helping in a time of need. Ed's a nice guy, but that's not his gift-- he'll listen caringly for about a minute and then out come the jokes, because humor is another one of his gifts.

THe POINT about sharing the faith in a way that is not offensive is to be entirely unconcerned about the fate of the person to whom you're "witnessing"... to be so full of love for the Lord you follow, that you are not at all focused on controlling, converting, saving, or upsetting the person who does not want any part of a religion that victimizes them.

THAT is the kind of sharing I understand that I am called to-- passing along what has been given to me-- of love, resources, understanding, whatever-- to just give it away without a thought for reward. "I'm being nice to you because Jesus said I had to" is NOTNOTNOT what we are called to embody. "I'm being nice to you because I'm so full of love that it flows out of me" is a different matter.

On the infrequent occasions when I meet this standard, my motives are seldom questioned. People who know me from Mudcat think I learned it in church-- I didn't. I learned it in the most radical, secularly-humanist community for world change that I've ever run across. I direct it now with the later, Biblical understandings I'm gaining since turning toward faith about 17 years ago. But I didn't wait until then to love the dickens out of people who seemed like they'd benefit from a warmth that is not so hard to extend if I am not worrying about what SUSAN needs or wants for them or from them.

And if you love people that way, and they need to know where it comes from, THEY WILL ASK. There is a lot of Scripture supporting that approach as well-- the idea that a heart not ready for the Word will not accept it. And I urge my believing friends to look at THAT side of Scripture if they really want to understand what sharing their faith means, for them.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 06:25 PM

Sounds like the Real Deal, Wyzzy....



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 06:33 PM

And people who are witnessing in the way folks find so rude are often actually just not mature in their faith yet, and are trying to do what they understand they're supposed to do-- they are NOTNOTNOT, most of the time, trying to repeat whatever nasty, wrong thing was done to others in childhood by mixed-up adults mixed with a twisted sense of faith. They are NOTNOTNOT trying to be Roman soldiers oppressing a pagan culture, etc.-- they just need a hand understanding some of the trickier parts of that huge Book.

Just refer them to me for that guidance, and get back to enjoying them as musicians, fellow dog/cat lovers, gourmands, Onion-readers, or whatever other commnality drew you to them in the first place. That's Part Two of my day's reflections-- that we get along around here SO WELL, in so many areas-- WHY let this one topic make YOU act as much like an idiot as THEM when religion comes up? (Take whichever role as YOU and THEM that fits)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 08:25 PM

Whereas that one does not...



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 08:44 PM

That's well said, Susan. About like I gathered from our talks and meeting. *smile*....but I didn't want to attempt to phrase it for you.

Whenever someone's inner convictions direct them to make the world a better place and to love & respect others for what they are, it makes little difference to me whether they get their inspiration from Jesus, Kant, or Great Grandma Jones.....or from Mammy Yokum, who said, "Good is better'n Evil 'cause it's nicer"

And, when *I* attempt to do good and love my fellow man (gender irrelevant), I'd just as soon not be 2nd guessed as to what my motivation is, nor what reward I ought to expect. IF there is a God who cares whether I believe in him, he & I can discuss that when the time comes. I'll present my case and see what happens. If he IS all-knowing, I am not concerned about eternity.

If there is no God waiting to 'judge' any of us, then it will make little difference. I'm willing to take my chances. And in the meantime, I will try to live a life that makes religious folks who don't know me 'think' that I'm one of 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 10:39 PM

Ok you guys, you wised up to me pretty quick, and I ain't no Troll!! I don't want to risk blasphemy so I'll post from now on under my mudcat handle! Susan – well spotted for the spelling mistakes!

I resisted posting to this thread for over 600 posts, but finally it got the better of me!

I was trying to make a point – what if Jesus walked up to you or spoke to you directly, if you were a non-believer, what would happen?

I think the whole discussion can be boiled down to two principle points – 1) can we find any proof of Jesus' existence (and what would constitute such proof)? And 2) if you had to accept that Jesus and God existed and were who it is claimed, what effect would this have on your life?

So Jesus addresses you through posts on a forum, what happens? Well, as you (correctly, in this case) suspected, it was an imposter (mea culpa). But what I posted is true as far as He is concerned, these are the kinds of promises He makes and things He asks us to do (as believers will testify). So, what if it had actually been Jesus making those posts? The answer, as I suspected, is that it wouldn't have made any difference. The posts would have been dismissed as an imposter. If Jesus spoke to you directly, it is dismissed as the early onset of mental illness – schizophrenia, as 'theleveller' put it in his / her post.

So the 'scientific' proof demanded of poor Jesus was just to stroll across a pool and appear in person – party tricks, in other words. But if He appeared to one person, it would be dismissed as a hallucination. And even if that person believed, the next person would demand the same personal proof. If He appeared to many people the non-believers would say it was a mass hallucination (and would no longer be faith).

So no matter how hard Jesus tries to get through to some people, they will always find a way to rationalise away the experience – though their rationalisations might not in fact be correct. They might even be inversely guilty of that old 'sin' anthropologists accuse our ancestors of – rationalising every clap of thunder or crop failure on sprites and gods.

But if I dare say it, those of you demanding some rational, scientific proof are being a tad un-scientific in your approach. A scientist does not start out on the premise that something does not exist and 'rationalise' away all evidence s/he finds, when those rationalisations are really suppositions (how do we know it IS a mass hallucination/ schizophrenia/ conjuror's tricks and not something else? We don't!) with no evidence to back them up. A scientist sets out with an OPEN mind on the theory to gather what evidence he can, make the observations and do the experiments.

We are talking about something beyond the phsyical, something outside the realm of what empirical science can measure (and we've had that part of the discussion before). Yet we can still apply the scientific method though the evidence we will find may be different to the kind of quantifiable / empirical data generally looked for by the physical sciences. Afterall there is no empirical scientific way of establishing what constitutes a well-written English essay, but we can find common consensus on such an essay when we find it.

I would suggest by starting with the evidence:

1)        the Bible contains most of what believers claim about God and Jesus. There are good sound arguments to accept it as an accurate record and account especially the particular area that concerns this thread, that on the nature of Jesus. The four gospels couldn't be more clearly written (I recommend the New International Version if you find all those Thees and Thous off-putting).

2)        Archaeological evidence to back up some of the historical details (e.g the census as recorded in Luke).

For points one and two above, may I recommend an excellent book – "Why Y2K – what the millenium is really about" by John Blanchard ISBN 0 85234 433 3 [I just visited the amazon.co.uk home site and found 69 copies of this book available from as little as 1p each]

3)        the experiences of millions of Christians past & present. Some, long dead, like St.Augstine, St.Paul and so on, have left us written testimonies. But speak to any living Christian who is serious about his / her religion (and there are a few on mudcat already) and we can tell you our own personal experiences. A striking form of evidence for me is the amazing power of God to transform people's lives. Some non-believers might have formed the opinion that Christians think of themselves as being rather better than everyone else (the supposed self-righteous attitude that non-believers find so annoying). The ironic thing (for me anyway, and I'd be interested in knowing if other believrs have had the same experience) is that the closer I get to God in my efforts, the more conscious I am of my sins. It's as if the more His light shines on me the more it reveals my defects. The good thing is that while it's embarrasing, it also makes me want to work on them. It was years ago, when I wasn't a believer, that I felt alright with myself, as in "I'm basically a good person, I don't need to change" But back then there was no spotlight on me. Then there's the surprising ways in which Jesus acts in your life when you grow in faith. You might approach Him with rational intellect, but sometimes you need just to trust Him and have faith, and it has to come from the heart as well as the head:

Bill D, you asked for 600 dollars. By way of one example, I have had actual experience of asking Jesus to take care of someone who owed me money I badly needed. I had been chasing after this guy for ages trying to get my money. He was always out, unavailable, as was my money. Then one day I said 'right, Jesus, I'm not worrying about this anymore, I'm leaving it to you". I had also lost my bicycle the day before and had given up hope of finding it. Afterall, I had left it unlocked in town. Now, the very next morning at work I was about to lift the phone to call this guy about my money when I remembered what I had said the day before and put the phone back down (faith). Less than 10 seconds later – and I am not exaggerating – the guy who owed me the money strolled in and said "I owe you some money, so if you follow me over to the bank…" Gobsmacked, I did. But there was more to come. As I walked out of the bank, cash literally in hand, I stopped and stared – there across the road was my bicyle locked to a lampost! It is no exaggeration to say I stood speechless. Every word of this is true.

Now I am sure determined non-believers will say 'coincidence', but it's funny how life fills with such coincidences when you really try to find God. But as i said in my posts as 'Jesus' (sorry, Jesus!) 'seek first the kingdom of God' in otherwords, these things tend to stop happening when you focus on them and forget the main issue (which God does for your own safety and good!!)

Bill D, I understand what you mean by circular argument. But that's the thing about God. For once you have to let go of intellectual prejudice (and I mean that in the original sense, not in any un-charitable way) and have faith. That proves the major stumbling block for many people, and not surprisingly. There are good rational reasons to believe Jesus is who He says (said) He is. But to experience this directly usually requires that we drop our scepticism first. Few of us receive Paul – Saul type conversions. But the spirit of God does reach us in the oddest ways. That might be one reason why many Christians have had dark pasts, we found God in moments of crisis when our own agnsotic hedonism had messed us up as far as we could go, and in our desperation we cried out to God, and found Him waiting. And I speak from personal experience. Without that crisis we might never have found God and just drifted along (un)comfortably in our lives. And once you make the leap, the oddest things do happen! But it has to come from the heart, which is why the biggest enemy is often logic, vying for first place with pride (the first of the deadly sins, and the cause of Lucifer's downfall – he wanted to be equal to God 'no God's going to tell ME what to do!") As I said, don't knock it until you've really tried it. And be prepared to put in some effort and be patient. That's why I can't help a wry smile when people say 'Christianity is a cop-out so people don't have to think' The truth is, it's VERY demanding – physically, emotionally and intellectually - and one reason some people avoid it altogether.

There is a lot of the above kinds of evidence to make a pretty compelling argument, but it's evidence that unfortunately can't be seen for what it is until you get into it.


So once we have evidence, the next step is experiment, Try it for yourself and see if it works as predicted. Those who are serious about their faith finds it DOES work time after time (as demanded in scientific method). The the results are hard to quantify, but you will find a real change coming over your life. You can no more explain it easily to a non-believer than you can explain an acid trip to someone who's never even had a drink (and before you wags start making religion / trip jokes…… ;-)) )

Some of you in previous posts described having a 'Sunday school' experience of religion. That is, religion limited to some classes when you were a child, with child's examples used to explain the concepts (hence a man with a white beard etc.,), and perhaps some services on a Sunday. Not getting any further into it unsurprisingly you dropped it. But that's a bit like someone who learns two cords badly on a guitar, hardly ever practices, not enough even enough to sing a proper and satisfying song; then thinks 'this instrument is useless!' before losing all interest in music. You need to explore it at a much deeper level than that (which is why in previous posts I have suggested that not too much time be spent on comparative religious study apart from the basics: you could end up a jack of-all-religions and master of none. Any of them is a lifetime of study).

The funny thing is, none of this is new. Jesus had exactly the same problem. Just think, 2,000 years ago the Jews in Palestine were lucky enough to have Jesus walking round in their midst! What an incredible opportunity! He did amazing things – he perfomed miracles like changing the water into wine, healing people who were obviously beyond help (deaf, blind, lame and leprous people at a time when there was no real surgery and few effective drugs), drove out demons, raised no less than four people from the dead (Lazarus (John 11:1-16), the widow's son (Luke 7:11), the Jairus' daughter (Luke 8:49) and another one who I forget offhand, not to mention being raised from the dead Himself), He walked on water (thanks Bill!), filled the apostles net's with fish, you name it, He did it. That's a fairly impressive list.

You'd be inclined to think with such an awesome display of power everyone would have believed. But though some did, others wouldn't.

Jesus Himself had lots to say about this:

Just one example - Once He was healing the sick and preaching. People brought Him a lame man to heal. He told the man 'your sins are forgiven' The Pharisees (the priest class of the Jews) were really angry and thought 'how dare you say that?" because only God can forgive sins. Jesus read their thoughts (a remakable feat in itself) and said "why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say your sins are forgiven or to say get up and walk? But so that you know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins' he said to the paralysed man 'I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home' Immediately and to everyone's amazement the man – who had had to be lowered through the roof on a stretcher - did just that. (Luke 5:17-26)

There's a lot in this –

The importance of persistence in trying to reach God. The guys who'd brought the lame man were unable to reach Jesus because of the crowds. But such was their faith in His ability to cure the man that they refused to give up and removed part of the roof to get the man to Him. This kind of persistence is well-received by God, just as you might be pleased that someone made a big effort to get in contact with you and didn't give up just because they didn't have your phone number.

Jesus was stating he was God by forgiving sins. The pharisees had a problem with this and so to prove it to them (the same thing people are asking today) He cured the lame man. As He pointed out – it is easier to say 'your sins are forgiven' which result can't be immediately visibly be seen; than to say to a paralytic 'get up and walk' (just try it if you don't believe me).

He might have had it in mind to cure the lame man anyway – afterall, He loves faith and rarely leaves it unrewarded (in my experience and in that of many other Christians I've spoken to). The rewards are not always the things obvious to this world, afterall most people want money etc., But there are no pockets on a shroud and there are other things important in life also.

There's lots lots more on all of this, but I want to keep it short (even by my standards)!

A lot of people on this forum have complained about not wanting to be converted, to having religion 'shoved down their throats' and they have a valid point and I have to hold up my hands as guilty here, too. I think there can be at least three phases after you become a believer, and perhaps they'll help to explain some of that.

In the first phase, it is a Paul – Saul like conversion (even if you are not literally blinded on the road to Damascus). The new convert has often just managed to pull him / herself up from the bottom of the pit, thanks to God (literally). They are so blown away by this fact and the new power in their life that they tend to come on a bit heavy to others. A bit like the way an ex-smoker tends to be a bit bullying in stopping people from smoking. You've just given up the noxious weed and having finally dawned on you just how unhealthy it was and how great you now feel you want everyone else to experience the same thing. The end result is often that you stress them out so much you end up driving them to more smoke. There's enthusiasm but no real charity in the heart.

The second phase is when some of this intensity wears off and you have to manage the mundane details of life with your new faith. If you're not careful you can get sucked down by the mundanity of the world and end up drifting into a mere intellectual appreciation of religion and losing the spirit of it. This is what people often call 'Sunday Christianity' and it turns many non-believers off. It seems an arbitrary set of actions, ceremonies and rules that have no bearing on actual life.

CS Lewis described both phases beautifully in his book 'The Screwtape Letters', well worth a read by both believers and non-believers alike. Non-believers will have a good chuckle at the 'righteous Christian' and the pitfalls that await him, believers will find much good advice.

If you survive this (and the devil tries hard to make sure you don't) you may pass onto a third phase, where your faith informs your life and brings about a real change. You begin to actually live your religion.

When it comes to transmitting your experience of faith to other people the first phase may have you as the annoying anti-smoking zealot, the second phase may have you as someone who simply enjoys a good intellectual argument but lacks charity (St.Paul warned against this in his oft-quoted passage on love: see 1 Corinthians 13 1- 2 especially). The third phase is something different. As Susan said, when some Christians tell you about their faith, it is not to shove it down your throat – you're free to reject it and no-one is burnt at the stake anymore – but because we love you. Sounds corny, but it's true. One reason Jesus is important to us because He is a source of infinite love that we can in turn channel outwards to people we meet.

I think it was St.Augustine who said that the human heart is made by God to be united with God and is never at rest until it succeeds. Those of us who have found that unity realise that phrase to be so true that in our love for others we want to tell them about this in the hope they will share it too. There's no question of compunction, whatever non-believers might think. If there was the slightest hint of that, there wouldn't be any love.

It is interesting that threads on Jesus and faith attract so much attention and so many posts from believers and non-believers alike. If what St.Augustine said wasn't true, I doubt so many posts would be made about something many people say doesn't even exist. Would we bother posting and posting about Santa Claus? I think deep down we all realise there is something of real significance under discussion. And if we believers seem persistent, it is only because we love you. Really, we do (if any believers would like to comment on that feel free, I hope I speak correctly).

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 11:22 PM

Nick:

Anyone can spin a tape from a belief system. It may or may not be actual live communication. Citing authoritarian provenance like the Bible does not add to the credibility. To those of who do NOT subscribe to the program, the Bible is a poetic collection of superstitions, myths and moralizing. I would as soon swear on the Golden Bough, or "Sexual Patterns Among the Trobriand islanders". Once you lift off into Nerland, anything goes, but that doesn't make that first step any more likely.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 11:24 PM

""Sexual Patterns Among the Trobriand islanders"?!?!?!

Where can I get a copy of that book?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:40 AM

Well, nickhere, nothing I haven't heard a thousand times before - must be some sort of brainwashing that you godsquad people get. What it boils down to is that it's all a matter of belief. You believe all the god and Jesus stuff from the bible - fine. I don't, I have my own personal beliefs that I don't try to shove down anyone's throat - equally fine. My belief is as valid as yours. You'll never prove the existence or otherwise of god, so what's the point in trying? The whole point of any religion is faith, not certainty. I once heard the Archbishop of Bristol say something to the effect that people with absolute certainty in the existence of god frightened him to death; it was those who were constantly searching that he identified with. Absolute certainty equals absolute arrogance, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 09:46 AM

You actually do shove stuff down people's throats, theleveller--those insults that you spew out so freely--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 10:26 AM

I was trying to make a point – what if Jesus walked up to you or spoke to you directly, if you were a non-believer, what would happen?

Nickhere,

In point of fact, JESUS decided to whom He would reveal Himself. I doubt He would want you dragging him over to people, insisting that they meet Him. He preferred (according to my reading of the Bible) to be available to them when they were ready to consider Him and His message. Um, have you considered that you may be unintentionally usurping His prerogative?

When you focus more on proving a point than on following Him, the result is that you get people's sensitive backs up. We can never know when the Holy Spirit is preparing someone's heart; intrusive proselytizing and argumentative messages to win points only hardens those hearts further. You may be "right," but being "right" is only the same kind of legalistic thinking Jesus and the early church tried so hard to transcend. (Remember that "clanging gong" passage?)

Another model from the Bible: people who had encountered Jesus told, simply, what they had experienced. Very, very few of them became teachers and preachers.... very few of them used the encounter to tell people what they ought to do. You may not have meant to speak in preaching terms, but when you said this: Bill D.... you have to let go of intellectual prejudice ... and have faith...., you tried to tell a good friend of mine what to do, who had not asked you what to do, whose heart is probably NOT being prepared by the Holy Spirit at this time to hear what you think he needs to hear.


You're a wonderful writer, and next time you feel so tempted to wade in on matters of faith, I'd welcome a PM to me instead. I'd especially like to hear how our Lord has changed your life.... more than how eager you are for Him to change others' lives. (I wish someone had invited ME to such a dialog when I first came here!)

If you feel called to teach and preach, that's a serious vocational exploration to conduct-- not something to enact in threads in a discussion forum. If you are experiencing such a sense of call, I'd encourage you to enter a discernment process to explore that call and see whether that is a direction our Lord would ask you to take. (I have some experience in that area if you'd like some information.)

Blessed Advent,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 10:31 AM

6:

The original field study of the Trobriand Islanders, by Bronislaw Malinowski, was written up in a book called "The Sexual Life of Savages in North Western Melanesia " which you can order through Amazon.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 10:43 AM

Nickhere,

Oh, sorry-- I had missed this one:

As Susan said, when some Christians tell you about their faith, it is not to shove it down your throat – you're free to reject it and no-one is burnt at the stake anymore – but because we love you.

NONONO, I did not say that, and I do not do that. I do not tell people about Jesus because I love them (as I used to do). I love them enough NOT to tell them until they ASK or unless I am just exchanging information about my own spirituality in a mutually-respectful environment (when I am remembering what I know is correct use of my gifts).

When Jesus is important to us because He is a source of infinite love that we can in turn channel outwards to people we meet, it means we just love them. It does not mean that He wants us to use their vulnerability to insist that they accept the source of the love we pass along, as well as the love itself.

An unemployed pastor friend of mine once told me very excitedly about a vision he'd had, and how he interpreted it. "I saw myself walking up to the door of [church name], and God told me to open that door and walk in." He went on to tell me that this vision meant he was going to be their next pastor. I asked him, "Did you go there, and open that door, and walk in yet to see what He said to you next?" No, he was working on his resume to take along. "Did God tell you to work on the resume?" I asked. "No, but I thought....." was his response. Then the lighbulb went on. He'd run right past the message, to apply it HIS OWN WAY. It might very well have been that there simply was someone who God had wanted him to meet that day that had nothing at all to do with my friend's ambition to return to fulltime pastoring! We laughed together over that one for a long time, and he never did go open that door-- too bad; maybe there was a blessing waiting.

:~) Be careful how you use God's messages, and my posts. They may not mean what you'd like them to mean.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 11:21 AM

"You actually do shove stuff down people's throats, theleveller--those insults that you spew out so freely-- "

Really. Such as?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 11:50 AM

Much is perspective.

Fellow driving around in Montreal. He's late for an interview, important appointment. He says, "Dear G-d, if you help me find a parking space I will attend church every single Sunday for ten years." About 15 seconds later a space opens. The fellow says, "Never mind, I found one."

We do tend to find things in the last place we look for them.

Have a good X-mas season, y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 12:29 PM

I love that story.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:22 PM

Proving to someone that God exists is not possible as it is only by 'experiencing' Gods power that we can truly come to know Him.
You may already be thinking that I have made a bold statement there but I make it from my personal experience and would invite you to take a look at my website which I set up some years ago and occasionally update. It tells of how I came to the place I am at now in "Mikes Testimony" and how I had a healing in "Mikes Healing".
I am putting a link to the main page but if you wish to look at those two items, please click on each at the left of the mainpage.
It is just one persons experience and cannot be proved conclusively but at least it may help some people understand my position. You can also view my ugly mug!
We all have choices! Or do we?
My website should you choose to look
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:33 PM

Perhaps one should look at Jesus's own words on the subject ( at least according to the Bible:

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:42 PM

The Son of Man?

Odd sort of confession, off hand. But I like the style. Thanks, BB.



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:14 PM

Either one believes him, and does not look where others tell you to, or one does not believe him, and does not look where others tell you to.

But the act of following ANOTHER to Jesus is clearly against his own words.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:40 PM

Like this,--"must be some sort of brainwashing that you godsquad people get."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:41 PM

Amen! I don't know ANYone who is part of ANY group, who likes to be called "you people."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:46 PM

Susan - You people always say that:}

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:50 PM

Well, I shoulda knowed better than to get my feet damp in one of these threads again. The temptation to both explain about logic & reason AND to ask that preaching not be done here sometimes overwhelms me. So I should not be surprised at what I get back....more preaching and more circular, convoluted explanations about how seemingly bad logic is not really bad ....if I just "open my heart and accept" the premises it is based on.

I can't say I wasn't aware of how it would go....but I can say I'm always disappointed.

At least I give in less often than I used to.

(And Peace...I DO love that parking place story! It says more about 'us' than most huge books do.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:54 PM

But Wesley, why do you people always say that to those people?    ;-)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 04:03 PM

Peace ..

"We do tend to find things in the last place we look for them.

Have a good X-mas season, y'all."



Those are the exact words Otis told me after he found my wallet.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 04:04 PM

Don - Because all y'all expect it of us. And we hate to disappoint.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 04:17 PM

WHat is the MATTER with you people?



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 05:21 PM

Nickhere,

You said: "But if I dare say it, those of you demanding some rational, scientific proof are being a tad un-scientific in your approach. A scientist does not start out on the premise that something does not exist and 'rationalise' away all evidence s/he finds, when those rationalisations are really suppositions (how do we know it IS a mass hallucination/ schizophrenia/ conjuror's tricks and not something else? We don't!) with no evidence to back them up. A scientist sets out with an OPEN mind on the theory to gather what evidence he can, make the observations and do the experiments."

I maintain that are quite a few non-believers who will keep an open mind and when the experiments yield verifiable evidence, they might change their minds. That hasn't happened yet.

You also say: "1)       the Bible contains most of what believers claim about God and Jesus. There are good sound arguments to accept it as an accurate record and account especially the particular area that concerns this thread, that on the nature of Jesus. The four gospels couldn't be more clearly written (I recommend the New International Version if you find all those Thees and Thous off-putting). "

There are also good reasons to not accept it as being an accurate record. The four gospels are not clearly written and they were not written by the four names attached to them. I recommend you read Bart Ehrman's account on his studies of the bible.
"Misquoting Jesus" (I think that's one title) that is worth reading. The bible has been rewritten countless times and changed radically. First it was written down by scribes who didn't know how to read what they were writing. Not many could read in those days.
Then it was rewritten by clerics with a definite agenda. There are so many radical inconsistencies in the current bible that it would take intensive scholarship to sort them all out. Bart Ehrman has done this.

You say: "If what St.Augustine said wasn't true, I doubt so many posts would be made about something many people say doesn't even exist. Would we bother posting and posting about Santa Claus? "

It becomes quite clear early to most school children that Santa doesn't exist and yet his
mythology continues. Posts are made protesting the use of religion as some kind of
factual data that is used to elect politicians. I have to remind you that atheists and agnostics never make it to public office which is an indictment of what is supposed to be
democracy and a violation of Church and State. Meme (ideas that model genetic replication) can in fact be historical and be perpetuated without their being factual or true.
Ideas about systems of political theory still prevail in spite that many of them such as Nazism or Totalitariansim are no longer useful to society. Just because these ideas are prevalent and handed down from generation to generation does not make them somehow more useful.

I have been exposed to some of CS Lewis and I must say that I am more impressed with
Philip Pullman's "Golden Compass" than I am with tales of Narnia. (I really had a personal
problem with Lewis when I saw his PBS special and he was puffing on a pipe throughout.)

You are welcome to your views and even though I don't share them, I can respect you as a person and answer your assertions not with malice or condemnation but in a spirit of exploration. I think that science can shed a lot of light on this issue if we don't dismiss it
as being outside the area of inquiry.

Respectfully,

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 05:35 PM

Frank - I've also read Ehrmans "Misquoting Jesus" and found it very interesting. I was amazed to find that the transcribers of the books of the bible had to contents with manuscripts that were often written using no capital letters, spaces or punctuation. itwouldbeverymuchliketryingtoreadsomethingwritteninthismanneritwouldbeverydifficulttounderstandtosaytheleastwouldtyouagreeornotidoubthtaticouldmakeheadsortalesofwhatwasbeingsaidmistranslationswouldbeveryeasytomake

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 05:46 PM

Susan "You may not have meant to speak in preaching terms, but when you said this: Bill D.... you have to let go of intellectual prejudice ... and have faith...., you tried to tell a good friend of mine what to do, who had not asked you what to do, whose heart is probably NOT being prepared by the Holy Spirit at this time to hear what you think he needs to hear"

All I can do is offer my apologies to Bill D (apologies, Bill :-) ) if he thought that's what I meant. I was using the 'you' in a general sense, more like the pronoun 'one'. I was thinking more about myself really, but also other people I've known and met (not mudactters) whose 'rationality' has proved a stumbling block to knowing God. Not because God is irrational but because the rationality in vogue today is the product of 18th cent enlightenment that rejects God as lacking empirical earthly basis.

My post above was an attempt to explain something that's very hard to articulate. I was in a church today and a metaphor came to me: I am very interested in architecture and history so I often visit historical buildings. If one goes into any typical renaissance cathedral in Italy one will find a whole smorgasbord of icons, paintings, sculptures and motifs. Most people will probably recognise Christ on the cross, but who is that woman in the painting and why is she holding a wheel? And that guy full of arrows looking sorrowfully into space? And what weird thing is this: four animals clustered around a big stone table - a cow, a lion, something else.... what a weird thing this religion is! One finds oneself surrounded by nice antiques but as obscure as hieroglyphs. One's appreciation of them will probably be artistic (intellectual) but one doesn't connect with them emotionally or on other levels.

But if one comes from a Christian background, and depending on how much one has studied that, one'll recognise the woman with the wheel as St.Catherine and be familiar with how she was executed on that wheel for not renouncing her beliefs, the man full of arrows as St.Sebastian, the four animals as symbols for the writers of the Gosepls. The Cathedral suddenly becoms an open book, alive with meaning it doesn't have if one is not 'tuned' to see it. For me, religion and faith are in some way similar. If one is not tuned to it, one doesn't see the evidence, the meaning or significance of things. It can appear like so much mumbo-jumbo and mindless behaviour. I willingly admit this may not be everyone's experience, but I've been on 'both sides of the fence' and can at least refer to my own experience.

I do apologise if I came across as preaching. That wasn't my intention and I'll have to be more careful if that's how I come across. I suppose I have heard the arguments put about scientific proof, evidence etc., many times and wanted to say 'if that's not working for you, try looking at the picture another way. I can't guarantee you'll see something that makes sense (that's not up to me) but it may be worth a try'

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:15 PM

'Subject: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Ed. - PM
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:22 PM

I'm terribly sorry to have to break this to you, and the fact that you make up a fairly large proportion of the world's population makes it hard, but I have a duty to tell the truth.

Deep breath... God does not exist

If anyone can give me decent evidence as to why I'm wrong, I'd like to here it, along with something more substantial than "mysterious ways"'

So, uh, ya gonna answer this or not?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:15 PM

Frank "....factual data that is used to elect politicians. I have to remind you that atheists and agnostics never make it to public office which is an indictment of what is supposed to be democracy and a violation of Church and State"

Governments in my corner of the world are full of them (agnsotics and atheists), that's the way democracy works, people vote for what they like (or perhaps politicians' religion is not an issue here when canvassing for votes; I've seen VERY few politicans here standing ona religious platform). One EU commissioner was forced out of office a few years ago on account of his religious views (despite his promises to vote in a secular way or abstain). He was replaced with someone felt to be more secular.

"I have been exposed to some of CS Lewis and I must say that I am more impressed with
Philip Pullman's "Golden Compass" than I am with tales of Narnia. (I really had a personal
problem with Lewis when I saw his PBS special and he was puffing on a pipe throughout.)"

Maybe you didn't like his Narnia books, fair enough. 'The Screwtape Letters' I thought was excellent. Have you tried that one?
As fort the pipe.....well, in those days they didn't think smoking was such an awful thing. We know better now!

Thanks for the tone of your reply though, Frank, I appreciate your candour.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:17 PM

Peace "So, uh, ya gonna answer this or not?"

You asking me?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:18 PM

Yeah.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:19 PM

What kind of proof is Ed looking for?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:21 PM

Lord knows; I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:25 PM

I agree, literally! That's part of the problem. You can produce whatever evidence you have and people can find a way to dismiss most of it without leaving you any clearer what would be acceptable to them.

What I can say is this - I've met Him and He's transformed my life, and I'm very grateful for that. I don't know if that'll do for Ed, but he's welcome to ask me anything he wants about it.