Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK

Subject: Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: sheila
Date: 28 May 09 - 05:34 PM

from an article in today's 'Northern Times', a newspaper for the north of Scotland -

"INTERNATIONALLY renowned Canadian singer Allison Crowe, on her way to stay with friends in North-West Sutherland last week, was held for 11 hours at Gatwick Airport in London by immigration officials – and then deported back home.

And all because she and fellow band members had failed to obtain a Certificate of Sponsorship from venues they were due to play at, a little-known visa requirement following legislation brought in last November to combat illegal immigration and terrorism."

full story at http://www.northern-times.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/6098/North-bound_visitor__treated_like_a_terrorist_.html

Subject: RE: Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 28 May 09 - 06:04 PM

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that ths climate of fear nonsense that surrounds our every move doesn't actually appear to be stopping many real terrorists?

Subject: RE: Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: bald headed step child
Date: 28 May 09 - 06:11 PM

"Any man who would give up liberty for the sake of security, deserves neither"---Ben Frankiln

Subject: RE: Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: olddude
Date: 28 May 09 - 06:45 PM

Bald headed step child has it right
I have that quote from Franklin about my desk at my office

Subject: RE: Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 May 09 - 06:52 PM

The world's gone stark raving mad...

The lunatics are in charge once more..

Viva la Revolucion!

Subject: RE: Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: bald headed step child
Date: 28 May 09 - 07:07 PM

It is easy to wrest power from the people. Simply convince them of a common enemy, then convince them that you can protect them from this enemy.(Basic idea, not sure of the exact wording)--H. Goering

Subject: RE: Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 May 09 - 10:19 PM

I spy a negligence claim against her legal advisers...

Subject: RE: Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: michaelr
Date: 28 May 09 - 10:47 PM

..."all because she and fellow band members had failed to obtain a Certificate of Sponsorship from venues..."

Looks to me like someone didn't do their homework. We can all be dismayed, and with good reason, about post-9/11 Big Brother-style government requirements, but by now no one should be surprised by them.

Subject: RE: Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 May 09 - 12:21 AM

"She and fellow band members": Definitely not a personal visit.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 09 - 02:34 AM

Beware of stupid people -- in groups.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 09 - 02:36 AM

She LOOKS like a terrorist; that's easy enough to see . . . .

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Kampervan
Date: 29 May 09 - 03:14 AM

Will nobody rid us of these turbulent lawmakers?

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: evansakes
Date: 29 May 09 - 03:43 AM

Is this "certificate of sponsorship" different to a 'work permit'?

If so, did these musicians have their work permits? Every tour has to have a 'sponsor' of some kind. Usually it's a booking agent who fulfills this role and they know how to process these things. There's no such thing as a private or social visit if remuneration is being made for musical performances.

I know of quite a few cases of musicians deported because they didn't have work permits. One renowned American singer-songwriter was caught out quite recently arriving for gigs without a permit.

When questioned if you're doing gigs it's best to admit it. Even customs officers have enough nous about them to go into another room, switch on a computer, google your name, find your website and know that your telling porkies.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Rasener
Date: 29 May 09 - 03:47 AM

Just in case anybody gets concerned about the Tanglefoot tour, I can confirm that Tanglefoot have received their Certificates Of Sponsorship for their forthcoming tour.

Allison's agent (assuming she used an agent) should have known and dealt with it. That is the agents job, to be up on these rules and regulations.

However, I would like to thank Sheila for putting this thread up and making us aware of this issue.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 May 09 - 04:01 AM

The information is easily found on the UK Border Agency website, although the system seems to assume a "creative worker" will be working for a single employer rather than doing a series of one-off gigs.

This situation was unfortunate for the musicians involved and their disappointed audiences, but it does look as if someone hasn't done their homework.

However, the allegations about the way they were treated while in detention are disturbing.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: nickp
Date: 29 May 09 - 04:40 AM

Not sure about 'easily found' Howard. I've just gone round in cirlces for about 30 pages without finding what I needed to know. Perhaps you can help with a quick summary.

Assume (although it is true)... in the past I have been responsible for applying for work permits for American artists (musicians) to appear at a festival. Previously I have filled in a WP3 form with all the relevant details and sent it off with payment, receiving the permits (usually) very rapidly.

The only WP3 form I can now find relates to a few Eastern European contries so I guess it's been replaced.

Although I, personally, no longer do the permits, the organisation still gets US artists for the festival. Any helpful summary of the changes would be greatly appreciated.

Nick

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Betsy
Date: 29 May 09 - 05:54 AM

The worlds going mad – thinking about the Canadian connection , I was travelling back from the Middle East yesterday and having to get a couple of different flights I met TWO Americans who were refused entry into Canada because of Drinking / Driving convictions.
I don't condone the D&D but they're hardly murders or gangsters – but it is enough to exclude them?
There seems to be lots of spare wood being let into Britain ,( and financially supported) so I send my apologies to Alison for what it's worth. There have been plenty of social models - which start by attacking art and culture - god forbid the British start these "tricks".

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: GUEST,Golightly
Date: 29 May 09 - 05:58 AM

There may have been recent changes to the certificates required, but musicians have always been treated with suspicion by immigration authorities.
Some years ago my partner was a professional musician who worked regularly in the US. Consequently, there were lots of American work permits in my partner's passport, so even if we visited America for personal, non-work reasons we were always questioned at length before being admitted into the US.

Canada in particular has always been stringent in its treatment of foreign musicians, so it's ironic that a Canadian musician fell foul of our regulations.

I think that countries assume that once you've worked there, your return visits are less likely to be purely personal.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Ratdog
Date: 29 May 09 - 06:41 AM

Heya Betsy, you stated: "I met TWO Americans who were refused entry into Canada because of Drinking / Driving convictions."

Well, they weren't lying, Canada bars entry of anyone with a drinking and driving conviction, not just Americans but even to Canadians like my friend Jason, who moved here to the USA, got a DUI, now, even though his entire family still lives in Canada he's not allowed to enter, even to see them.

Talk about cold blooded, if Jason wasn't such a good friend of mine, and told me about it, it's likely I wouldn't have believed him.

On the other hand, I've traveled around and even worked in Canada, their laws involving alcohol consumption are more strict in general than those here in most of the USA, so it's not completely surprising.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 May 09 - 07:01 AM

I have no specialist knowledge but out of curiosity I googled and found these:

Working in the UK - creative and sporting workers

Sponsorship

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 May 09 - 07:02 AM

Seems fair enough.

We had a recent thread about another Canadian moaning about visa fees to the US....because they had waited too late and needed to expedite.

Publicity like this is a good reminder to get your affairs in order before internation travel.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: meself
Date: 29 May 09 - 07:24 AM

From the linked article:

John Thurso, MP for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, told the NT this week: " ... The rule itself is an affront to the great British tradition of welcoming overseas artists and another example of this government's unyielding zeal for mindless regulation. Security is important, but throwing international performers into a lock-up and being rude to them should be no part of it."

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 May 09 - 07:57 AM

The lunatics have taken over the asylum.

Britons beware - what few Civil Liberties which remain to us are under threat.

Still feel to vote BNP, or UKIP, anyone ?

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Morris-ey
Date: 29 May 09 - 08:52 AM

Anyone who wishes to enter a foreign country has to comply with that country's legal requirements and that means that they, or in this case their agents, research what that means.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: nickp
Date: 29 May 09 - 09:08 AM

Thanks for the links Howard. I guess I'd better get our current organisers to turn the organisation into a sponsor.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: meself
Date: 29 May 09 - 09:14 AM

Nice to see all the support for regulation, restriction, paperwork, bureaucracy, legality, and general fussiness. Keep up the good work, people - you're winning!

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 May 09 - 09:24 AM

It's not the first time that this has happened, even before all the tightening of regulations, and artists who haven't got the requisite work permits have had real problems on arrival at this country. My other half has just come back from a month in California, and had to get all the paperwork spot on before she could go.

It's not really a question of whether the rules are excessive, stupid, bureaucratic, etc. (and I also happen to think they are). The onus is always on the artist(e) or their agency or manager - whoever - to work out the requirements before the journey is made, and make sure they're complied with. It's a huge shame that Allison Crowe was refused entry, but you can't buck the system just because you're a performer, and ignorance of the system is no excuse.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to
From: GUEST,Folknacious
Date: 29 May 09 - 09:39 AM

Friends of mine who toured regularly in the US a few years ago said that their approach was to engage a good, well-reputed visa lawyer and pay them to get on with it. It wasn't cheap, but compared with the cost of losing paid-for flights and a month's work fees they considered it good insurance money well spent. It always worked, and a professional in the field is fully aware of latest bureaucracy changes, necessary timescales, and most importantly has a good trusted working relationship with the bureaucrats. Can't see any reason why this approach shouldn't work in the opposite direction. It's when people stick their heads in the sand, think they can cut corners, slip under the radar, it won't apply to them etc that things fall apart. None of which excuses ludicrous, offensive, inappropriate bureaucracy, regulations and attitudes on behalf of those who ought to be out catching real criminals to fulfil their quotas.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to
From: GUEST,The lemonade lady
Date: 29 May 09 - 09:45 AM

So isn't it the same if we brits in to the states?

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: meself
Date: 29 May 09 - 10:03 AM

And what do the "states" have to do with it?

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 29 May 09 - 10:30 AM

You'd have thought if we were all 'subjects' of the same Queen some leeway could be made ...

I visited Canada a few years ago on a morris dancing tour and they were quite worried we would be putting Canadians out of work!

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 May 09 - 10:51 AM

Some time ago we wanted to bring a band from Spain to perform dance music such as the dro and the lal. Immigration was worried that they, too, were going to put local musicians out of work. Fortunately their agent was able to deal with the problem.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: meself
Date: 29 May 09 - 11:02 AM

"I visited Canada a few years ago on a morris dancing tour and they were quite worried we would be putting Canadians out of work!"

So you're the guy who stole my gig! And here I'd gone out and bought bells and everything ...

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 29 May 09 - 11:09 AM

Well we were in Toronto and there were already several 'native' teams there but they didn't seem too bothered. Took us to a bar and 'watered' us, in fact.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 29 May 09 - 11:14 AM

I'm a Canadian living in Britain, a musician who has yet to be told I've stolen anyone's gig.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 May 09 - 12:35 PM

I'm surprised that a Canadian had trouble getting entry into the UK. Doesn't Canada still have the Queen on its coins? Doesn't that help somehow?
What about Australians?
Do members of the Commonwealth have any distinctions any more?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: meself
Date: 29 May 09 - 12:37 PM

"Doesn't Canada still have the Queen on its coins?"

Yeah, but we took her off our paper money - maybe there's some hard feeling about that ...

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: DebC
Date: 29 May 09 - 12:47 PM

As someone who goes over to the UK to tour, yes the rules have changed. I contacted my usual person and apparently she is no longer a "sponsor", but is working to try to remedy that. In the meantime, I'll be going through someone who has been qualified so all is well, at least for me (I think).

Before, it was a "work permit" that a vetted UK Agent would process for you, with a fee of £190. Now it's called a "certificate of sponsorship" and there are a few more hoops to jump through. The one that is a wee bit un-settling is "Upon entry to the UK (at immigration) each person must be able to show that they have access to £800 in order to adequately maintain themselves while they are here. The idea is that the artist must be able to prove that they are not going to be trying to try to 'sign on' as a benefit claimant."

I guess I'll have to talk with the person who will be processing the application for me. BTW-all of this came through this morning, so it's quite new to me as well.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: GUEST,Adrian
Date: 29 May 09 - 01:30 PM

I serve as manager to Allison Crowe - and, indeed, the new rules have come as a shock to all those with whom we've been working in the UK for years. Allison is very much a grassroots artist, and, as it turns out, the small jazz venues, community halls, and concert presenters with whom we've developed relationships report that they were neither consulted nor informed of the requirement to register with the Home Office and become a certified "Sponsor".

And, now that they have learned of the new rules, they advise they will not choose to participate - which, in effect, wipes out a tier of valuable, independent, venues for international artists.

On the part of the front-line officials, the UK border police, there is clearly misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the rules that came into force on November 27, 2009. We were provided by them with misinformation (eg. the retina scan, fingerprinting, movement monitoring, bank account scrutinizing etc. measure of this new legislation are supposed to be reserved for people not from Canada or Australis - we are classified as "non-visa nationals"; that becomes an academic consideration when the concert venues are not legal "Sponsors" in any event).

The unreasonable and heavy-handed treatment we experienced, has also been the case recently with a Canadian university professor, a journalist with the Globe and Mail newspaper, and more.

There's plenty more detail that evidences the mishandling by UK Immigration of these innocent circumstances.

What we're dealing with is wonky, discriminatory, legislation - and instances of worse enforcement.

The following linked petition, and the comments of many signatories, shines more light on the issues:
Visiting Artists and Academics Petition

Subject: p.s.
From: GUEST,Adrian
Date: 29 May 09 - 01:50 PM

This new legislation does work for quite a few people - particularly those more institutionalized operators. There are such folks who find the "Certificates of Sponsorship" route more streamlined than past practices. For others however, including many true independents, this new system can now bar performances in venues that have been historically supportive of live music. No one is saying the old work permit system was perfect, but, this new system - for too many international artists, is a real mess.

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: gnu
Date: 29 May 09 - 02:06 PM

Ahhhhhh... hmmmm.... nah, I'd better not. I'll just echo Peace with a right coast twist... STUNNED AS ME ARSE!

Subject: the world is not so homogenous
From: GUEST,Adrian
Date: 29 May 09 - 02:15 PM

People really do have different perspectives, and one can't reasonably assume that you know all, gnu.

When I have a moment, I'll add some detail that, should you be a fair and reasonable person, will make clear that there's a wider range of experience than you suggest.

Subject: more things in heaven and earth...
From: GUEST,Adrian
Date: 29 May 09 - 03:52 PM

One of the points made in my original post is that neither of the venues, both successful jazz+ clubs, had any inkling of the new rules - and it is they that must choose to register as a "Sponsor". Additionally, none of those people, music industry contacts, with whom I've spoken with in the past week, (and that's dozens in the UK, and a lesser amount in Canada and other countries), had knowledge of this new legislation prior to our encounter with the border police. A few people in the last day or two, new contacts, have stated they know of the legislation, but they know that many people do not.

That is reflective of the manner, and channels, used to disseminate such info - and shows that the cultural industries are more diverse in their membership than some players in the mainstream appreciate.

Representative of a range of comments I've received in recent days are these:

a) from a journalist with a major UK newspaper, who reports on governmental+ matters:

"This sorry story is one more illustration of what I've known for some time: like most authoritarian regimes before it, New 'Labour' is, by accident or design, philistine to the marrow.

What I didn't know before was the existence of this new law, and I now wonder how many more slip under the radar."

b) from an arts/music presenter/promoter active in London:

"As for who was consulted about the new regs. Well, the big promoters were – hand selected by the Home Office – and they sit on a task force group – Serious Music, Association of British Orchestras, etc. but they haven't campaigned for the smaller groups and promoters. In my view, there's a lot of self-serving-interest amongst certain groups who are talking to the home office, but this is not being extended to the wider artistic and music community."

c) from an agent/booker who presents tours extensively in the UK:

"Unfortunately the new rules in the article are true. Although this is the first time I've heard of someone being detained like this.   Any non-EU artist must gain a certificate of sponsorship (from a UK agent or whomever is employing/contracting them) prior to coming to the UK. That agent will have registered thier business with the Uk Border Agency. Basically I think this "certificate" is a number on a database which comes up at customs?... I think visas are involved in there somehow. Unfortunately the Commonwealth link is now irrelevant. Its anyone outside the EU who must comply with it.

It wasn't widely advertised. I knew about it as I was already registered with the Uk Border Agency for other groups,"

d) from the manager of a long-established music venue in the UK:

"I can't tell you how thoroughly annoyed and frustrated I feel at the whole situation. I have written a letter to my local MP (member of parliament / politician) to air my disgust and dismay at this idiotic legislation, which makes it virtually impossible for some international musicians to play in this country and for (particularly) smaller venues to play host to said artists because of the cost of sponsorship.

Please pass on to Allison and the band our very best wishes and sympathies – we are angered and disgusted by the way they have been treated."

And on, and on.

As residents of the UK, naturally, you will have your own views, and the views you hold may or may not jive with any of these. Still, the music industry is not one homogenous mass. You more institutionalized operators may be in the loop, however, there clearly exists a large community of law-abiding, music-loving, industry participants who were neither consulted nor informed about the new legislation.

cheers, Adrian

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: meself
Date: 29 May 09 - 04:46 PM

GUEST, Adrian - gnu is on your side. He was reacting to the initial post, not to your previous post. (I know it's tricky trying to tell the players without a program!)

----------------

Seems a little sad that EU trumps Commonwealth. For some of us, anyway ...

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: bankley
Date: 29 May 09 - 05:27 PM

'we trade liberty for security,
mobility for chains to drag
you and me, we lose authenticity
whenever we drink at the mirage, c'est dommage'

immigration drift: meanwhile..
GW Bush is back in Canada today for another lucrative speaking engagement in Toronto with Slick Bill Clinton...

Splitting the Sky aka John Boncore was arrested in Calgary on March 17 for trying to make a citizen's arrest on Bush for war crimes... John's been charged with obstruction.. His 5 day trial is set to be held in March 2010... and he's in TO now joining the protests..    'truth to power'

one of his defense lawyers is former US Attorney General, Ramsey Clark.... that ought to get some attention... being that it's a citizen's right to uphold the law when the police and government refuse to....

good luck to Allison Crowe... bet she doesn't get snagged like that again....

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: gnu
Date: 29 May 09 - 06:28 PM

meself.... I thought it was obvious that I was onside. The puck was clearly over the blueline when I turned blue!

Subject: right said, meself
From: GUEST,Adrian
Date: 29 May 09 - 06:29 PM

I do apologize to you, gnu - I did, indeed, take it that you were saying there was no way people could be surprised/shocked to learn of the new rules.

Duly noted!

cheers, Adrian

Subject: playoff blues
From: GUEST,Adrian
Date: 29 May 09 - 06:33 PM

I have to say, things have not been the same since my Canucks imploded in their playoff series against the Blackhawks.

Ad

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: GUEST,highlandman at home
Date: 29 May 09 - 06:55 PM

I don't travel internationally to perform -- one can only wish -- but I do cross borders a good deal for business, including Canada's. It does help to be representing a well-heeled multinational with lots of lawyers, but I must say Canada is a real pain in the arse to get into. Even if I am going to one of our own company's offices I have to demonstrate no possibility that I might do work a Canadian could do. And I can't bring anything that looks like even a *picture* of a tool or test instrument with me.
(No offense personally to any of you, unless you work for the Canadian immigration service.)
But lots of other nations require either proof of a return ticket (for a very short-term work visa only) or a cash bond equal to the value of a return ticket. So if they have to shove your butt out it will be at your own expense.
The officious handling of these sorts of things is never a surprise. The Vogons are closer aboard than you think.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: Canadian singer Allison Crowe refused entry to UK
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 May 09 - 09:07 PM

The U. S. can be just as sticky, not just about people.
Some years ago, a course was set up in Houston, teaching advanced microscopic studies. The sponsoring institution was short of microscopes and asked us (in Canada) to bring our own. We arranged things with proper papers and clearances, etc. (our legal staff thought). Four research microscopes were shipped, but when we arrived, we found that Customs in Houston were not satisfied with the paper work or our reasons. The 'scopes would have to be returned or impounded.
We scrounged the city for scopes and 'borrowed the loan' of enough.

Not only frustrating, but the packing, insurance, shipping of our scopes and the legwork and customs work cost our company over $8000, not counting the time of one of our lawyers. The scopes got a round trip and never were unpacked until they returned home.

I imagine that this has happened with musical instruments as well.