BS: Astronomy Question

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 11:29 AM

Zogg have vision

Zogg see giant woman holding up flaming bone like trophy

Zogg feel trepidations

Zogg comprehend divine nature of soul searching...

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Peace
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 11:35 AM

"Zogg evolves for 50,000 years, and is now able to understand the rules of cricket..."

It would take longer than that to understand the rules of cricket.

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 12:05 PM

Ok, so....

Zogg evolves for 50,000 years, still can't understand cricket, and so invents baseball instead?

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Lox
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 01:55 PM

Zogg obsessed with cricket, always playing with bone

Mrs Zogg never gets a look in, goes to find another bone.

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 03:12 PM

Mrs. Zogg find walrus...ALWAYS have bone.

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:02 PM

Zogg suspicious about love bite

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:37 PM

Zogg sit up all night wondering where Sun gone..

Suddenly it dawn on Zogg!

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Lox
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:56 PM

Now that Zogg have Dawn, him not too bothered about mrs Zogg's love bite.

Him not too bothered about cricket.

Zogg gonna stayng up all night again

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 05:03 PM

Look carefully, Zogg!

(may require full page view...F-11)....stare thru page.)

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 05:30 PM

Zog sees patterns on the end of his nose now...

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 06:55 PM

Next time I look like I'm going to fall for some sort of 'puzzler' hook, somebody remind me of this thread...

My mistake - I didn't realize it was a 'talk like a cave man' thing instead of an 'astronomy question thing'. Have fun, y'all!

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:03 PM

Jeri,

It was an astronomy thing! It's just that it got answered within the first five posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 08:56 PM

Zogg very sorry for Jeri
Downcast, Zogg contemplates bone

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 09:10 PM

Zogg know which came first between chicken and egg. Zogg also know if Adam had navel. Eve was babe, by the way.

Zogg good friends with Johnny Hart.

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 10:13 PM

Egg first. Adam need place to but salt for celery.

Jeri so impressed with Zogg bone, she read post but miss bunnyperson get answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 10:46 PM

After much contemplation, Zogg makes decision
Zogg wants to cheer Jeri
Leaping into the future for inspiration
Zogg pulls out leather ferret for a fondle
Zogg plays Kid on the mountain
and then plays Banish misfortune

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 06:27 AM

Zogg master astronomy. Now have physics question...

1. If there were two 1/2 inch X 1/2 inch steel bars that were each a mile long

2. and those bars were end to end with an inch gap between the ends

3. and say that the expansion of steel would be > 1 inch per mile if heated to 500 degrees

4. and those bars were free to move in any direction as they expanded with the heat

...does anyone doubt that when heated to 500 degrees they would close the 1 inch gap and touch?

Now imagine...

1. those same steel bars with that same expansion rate

2. all as a small part of a steel washer (not something that washes steel, rather, a coin shape with a hole in the middle) that is two miles in diameter, 1/2 inch thick, with a one inch hole in the middle.

3. and imagine that those two bars in the above scenario are actually still end to end, but they have yet to be cut out of that washer -- they are still end to end -- and the inch gap in the above scenario is now the one inch hole in the middle of the washer.

4. heating the washer up to 500 degrees now...

...does anyone think that the hole in the middle of the washer will close?

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 07:38 AM

The hole expands with the same coefficient as the surrounding material.

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 02:33 PM

A steel bar one mile long will expand by about 633 inches for each degree F increase in temperature. So your bars will be so wrinkled up after they bump into each other they'll probaly crawl in a ditch and hide somewhere.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 02:44 PM

yes, but will the washer still have a hole in the center? (provided that there is no resistance to the expansion that would cause that wrinkling up)

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 02:51 PM

The hole will be bigger at higher temperature. A uniform expansion is just a "metric coefficient" transform, and the shape doesn't change.

The real question is "how thick a piece of brass would you have to laminate onto one side of the original mile long steel bar to make it form a perfect closed circle with a 500 degree temperature increase."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 02:54 PM

Steel bar one mile long weight helluva lot. Zogg drop steel bar on foot.

Zogg invent new dance and say many bad words!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 03:41 PM

Hey,

Thanks for the answer, John. Really. It's kinda light-hearted musing on my part. The question came up about the notion of a steel donut being heated and whether the hole would get bigger or smaller.

I immediately thought bigger. I thought about the idea of heating a stubborn nut off of a bolt. I thought of running warm water over a stubborn lid.

But when asked why the expansion of the steel wouldn't expand into the hole, all I could come up with was a bit of conjecture on my part...

...that it is the bond, not the atom that causes expansion. Thus, if the atoms that make up the innermost ring of atoms (the one that would define the perimeter of the center hole), the atoms are not going to change, but they will exhibit the same force of expansion in the bonds between them.

In fact, if there were only one ring of atoms, I doubt that anyone would even wonder if the ring would get bigger. It would seem more obvious.

And the atoms can't "leapfrog" one another. We're not talking about melting the steel. We've all seen sugar cookies close up holes as they expand in the heat of the oven.

I further figured that, at the very least, there would be a "keystone-ing" effect -- in other words, the center ring of atoms, rather than getting compressed by the action of the outer atoms "trying" to expand in all directions, would instead, be more inclined to direct all expansion outward. The "keystone-ing" by those atoms would, in effect, be the same as if the two bars in the first scenario met in the middle and thus started pushing all expansion toward the opposite ends.

I'm sure there's a simpler explanation. That was just what my sense of things came up with.

Sadly, Zogg drop things on foot all time. And to frustrate Zogg even more, bad words not invented yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 03:51 PM

. . . limp a lot.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 03:54 PM

". . . limp a lot."

Didn't he steal Gueneviere from Arthur?

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 08:20 PM

John H -

You do realize that the "633 inches per degree F" was a standard "random preposterous result" to see if anyone would actually do the calculation to argue with it?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 08:27 PM

That was once when his steed stepped on his foot. That very aggressive jouster, Lance-a-lot.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 08:30 PM

Unless Gueneviere ran off with him because Arthur was limp a lot.

(Sorry! Very sorry!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Rowan
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 08:51 PM

JohninKansas, thank goodness I've been metricated for so long I've fogotten how.

Bit like Arthur I suppose.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 09:15 PM

"You do realize that the "633 inches per degree F" was a standard "random preposterous result""

I (of course) did the calculations* and realized that, as I found your figures off by no more that plus or minus 632 inches per degree F, I shouldn't quibble. I rarely come any closer than 614 inches per degree F when proposing the preposerous myself. I can hardly demand more of you.

*anyone need a couple miles of melted-down 16 penny nails? Costly experiment, that.

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 09:17 PM

"anyone need a couple miles of melted-down 16 penny nails"

Not like Chernobyl I take it, so nothing to worry about, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: John Hardly
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 09:26 PM

No. The steel's still warm, but not radioactive. Well, not very radioactive anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jan 07 - 10:09 PM

Is 'preposerous' what a kid is before they realize they should be acting 'cool'?

Subject: RE: BS: Astronomy Question
From: Slag
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 04:10 AM

With regards to the original question: Zogg's rock formation resembles a T-Rex which raises some very red flags concerning evolutionary sequence but for argument's sake I'll go with it. To be recognizable as a large carnivorous sauropod, Zogg's scale would have to be around 1 degree. The Sun consistantly appears 1/2 degree as seen from Earth. This makes for quite a bit of slop in his observation so while the Sun may only PRECISELY "rise" in the same spot every 365.256 days it would appear to Zogg to rise in the same spot twice a year. The closer to the solstice positions the sooner this would occur. If the alignment were at the equinox postions then the occurence would be one half year apart (182.63 days).