BS: Non Muslim prejudice

Subject: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 02:29 PM

Yet another loud mouth, show off, know nothing religious bigot has stirred up Muslim sentiment, and caused the death of at least 8 people.
A pastor at a church in Florida, burned a copy of the Koran, after a show trial, which found the book, guilty! (Of what?)
Today a mob attacked a UN building in Mazar-e Sharif, following Friday prayers. People were dragged out, stabbed, and there are reports od the beheading of at least 2 UN workers.
The prick pastor in Florida, should be tried for murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 02:38 PM

Should he? He was a "prick", indeed; and asking for trouble ~ indeed dekiberately out to foment it ~ as he must have known what the likely result would be somewhere in the Muslim world; & so, as you say, it was...

Nevertheless, John; if you had heard that a New Testament had been burned in Riyadh or Amman, would your response to be to get all your friends together after next Sunday's Communion to attack a Muslim organisation's HQ wherever you are {London? NY?}, and behead some of those therein just for being there?

I doubt it somehow...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 02:46 PM

John is in Scotland and I agree with his anger. Except for the "prick" part. That pastor is clearly a bigot and an idiot. Pricks are useful... the pastor is useless crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM

"Nevertheless, John; if you had heard that a New Testament had been burned in Riyadh or Amman, would your response to be to get all your friends together after next Sunday's Communion to attack a Muslim organisation's HQ wherever you are {London? NY?}, and behead some of those therein just for being there?"
Up till recently I would have been surpised - now I am just saddened and and a little sickened - wasn't it you who told me that one evil does not excuse or cancel out another?
I'm really not surprised that you quite the other thread, Your protegé has really got the bit between his teeth now - at least another page of cut-'n-pastes to add to the six, and he hasn't got started yet!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 03:01 PM

Michael, you know full well that burning the bible would not cause such a reaction in the west, nor should it.
When you know with almost 100% certainty what the reaction will be against the burning of the Koran, you don't do it.
You may tease a pussycat, but try the same trick with a tiger, and see where it gets you.
Yes I know it appears to be an over reaction, but it was predictable over reaction, and a very stupid thing to provoke.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 03:49 PM

Jim ~~ you have not responded on that other thread to my pointing out a serious misinterpretation of something I posted there, where you got hold of the completely wrong end of an important stick.

~M~

John ~~ yes, I take that point well on board. But there was an odd tone to your OP, not only of what was obviously going to be the response; but that it was fully justified & the right thing for that mob to attack at random a western embassy thousands of miles from the original provocation & behead people with diplomatic immunity. That was OK by you, was it?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 03:54 PM

Sorry mate, but you're reading a different post to the one I made. 'Cos I never condoned any of the actions, neither the original action, nor yet the reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 03:58 PM

"not only of what was obviously going to be the response; but that it was fully justified & the right thing for that mob to attack at random a western embassy thousands of miles from the original provocation & behead people with diplomatic immunity. That was OK by you, was it?"

Give yer head a shake and see if it rattles. That is putting words in John's mouth and it is absurd and unacceptable... indeed, reprehensible! I must take leave of this thread if it's going to be subjugated to such inane bullshit and twisting of words in a trolling manner.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 04:17 PM

Sorry Mike - I have no idea to what you're freferring , but that doesn't make your present stance any less saddening and sickening
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 04:24 PM

Seems some folks expect reason from extremists. Extremists don`t need the adjectives (Muslim, Zionist, religious, etc.). They just need the excuse. Two wrongs don`t make a right, but burning a book--and it is wrong, imo--doesn`t deserve that kind of response. Fuck people who do that, and they`ll stop doing it. Reason won`t work. So, what are the alternatives (qm).

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 04:53 PM

The prick pastor in Florida, should be tried for murder.

No he shouldn't. Prick he may be. Idiot he certainly is. But his actions, believe it or not, were those of someone practicing freedom of speech. It is the extremists who's reaction led to innocent peoples deaths that should be tried for murder.

Sorry, but following your reasoning, John, every over zelous pastor, priest, immam or rabbi who preaches that thier religion is best should be tried for murder. Maybe they should. Or, just maybe, it is the idiots who believe them that should have the attitude adjustment?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 04:55 PM

Well said guest......straight as a die as usual my friend!

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:09 PM

'Sorry Mike - I have no idea to what you're freferring ,
Jim Carroll' ···

Why, to my having quoted Shakespeare & saying one could always find the right words in his works; which you most peculiarly took as saying that one could find the right words in Keith's posts: I cannot imagine where you got that from, Jim. Sorry.

Here is your post, pasting some of mine & then grossly misinterpreting it ~

"...you can always find the right words in his works somewhere"
And that is a shameful cop-out - that is what he said, that is what he meant - and that is what I object to." ---

I had made if quite clear it was Shax I was referring to. --

"Indeed, Jim. I remarked a little earlier, quoting Will Shaxpere on another thread, that you can always find the right words in his works somewhere ~~ so I now cry
Hold! Enough!" --

You really cocked up in taking that in any way to refer to Keith, Jim; & have since built up a peculiar head of 'attitude' due to this outrageous solecism on your part.

I really think an apology would be in order, either here or on that thread.

& then kindly get your temper back & climb down off my back, if you would be so good.

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 05:47 PM

. But his actions, believe it or not, were those of someone practicing freedom of speech.

HOWEVER just because some egregious asshole CAN do something, it doesn't follows that he SHOULD do it.

One would expect a certain amount of reason and intelligence applied to the situation --- or not, in which case he should be tried for felony stupidity. The pastor {sic- real "christian", no?) should be held responsible for the inevitable & totally forseeable result of his moronic actions.

Same damn thing as shouting "fire" in a crowded theater.

Fu$k him.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 06:20 PM

From the other prejudice thread.

Ans another pearl of Keith's wisdom on Moslem culture from the 'Burning Korans thread
"Other religions would just shrug off such an insult. They will kill people. That is the real problem."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 06:31 PM

"inevitable"? Really! Perhaps so, 'they' are all barbarians of course...

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 01 Apr 11 - 07:46 PM

Fundamentalists of this world have become the scourge of the planet, be they of the Christian, Muslim or Jewish variety. I have no use for any of the motherfuckers. Bastards all. Begat on duchesses by headwaiters, the lot of them. They hear voices from the heavens or their respective pulpits, and imo the world would be better off if they simply dropped dead and went to meet their makers. The sooner the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:00 AM

Sorry Mike,
I did mistake what you were referring to; I did misunderstand what you said (my Shakespeare has always been uneven), and I did accuse you of something that you were in no way guilty of.
I, of course withdraw any unjust accusations I have made and apologise,
and have done so on the other thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:40 AM

Many thanks, Jim. Apology instantly accepted of course. Back, please to square 1!

Same to be posted on other thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:48 AM

should be held responsible for the inevitable & totally forseeable result of his moronic actions.

So those who murdered other people because of what the pastor did are justifiedt? It was inevitable that they went out as a violent mob and killed innocent people because some idiot burned a book? And it's nothing at all like shouting fire in a crowded theatre. In that case the people in the theatre are directly threatened and act accordingly. If an immam across the other side of the world decided to burn a bible - how does that threaten me? Or would I be then justified, by your reasoning, to go and behead a few Muslims?

Sorry, but tollerance has to work both ways or not at all.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:55 AM

On the button Dave!

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Silas
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:00 AM

This pastor, this 'man of god' should be ashamed of himself (though he clearly is not). If ther eis no law against inciting international hatret, there should be and he should be tried for it.

The actions against the UN staff were unforgiveable, but, sadly, predictable.

I thought book burning died out at the end of 1945.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:23 AM

"2001: The U.S.A. PATRIOT Act, passed by the American Congress in response to terrorist attacks on New York and Washington on September 11, gave the FBI power to collect information about the library borrowings of any U.S. citizen. The act also empowered the federal agency to gain access to library patrons' log-ons to Internet Web sites—and protected the FBI from disclosing the identities of individuals being investigated."

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:30 AM

"Fundamentalists of this world have become the scourge of the planet, be they of the Christian, Muslim or Jewish variety. I have no use for any of the motherfuckers. Bastards all. Begat on duchesses by headwaiters, the lot of them. They hear voices from the heavens or their respective pulpits, and imo the world would be better off if they simply dropped dead and went to meet their makers. The sooner the better. "


I am in complete and absolute agreement with that statement.

The 'New World Order' should bring in the 'Incitement to Religious Hatred' laws that we now have over here in the UK, around the world. ANYONE who burns a Holy Book of any Denomination should be brought to trial and sentenced accordingly.

Incitement to Hatred, if brought in all around the world, not just religious hatred, but any hatred, would of course remove the need for War, so I guess that's never going to happen, as so many people make mega amounts of money from that occupation, but heyho, at least the reglious bit would be a beginning...

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:33 AM

Silas.....In all probability, these are the people we are supporting and protecting in Libya.

Have we learned nothing from our disgraceful previous adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Christianity, except for a few idiots is a tolerant religion.
Islam, as practiced in North Africa and the Middle East is extremely intolerant, to the point of madness.

That is the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Silas
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:39 AM

akenaton - once again uninformed drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 06:03 AM

Of more concern to me, frankly, is that most so-called Christians have never read books they want to ban/burn. Banning and burning are kissing cousins.

I have a basic distrust of books that are prompted by writers' individual talks with The Creator. That distrust extends to The Book of Mormon, The Koran, The Bible. At various times I have had discussions with proponents of each and always come away wondering what kind of dope they were smoking.

I dislike fanatics regardless their religious affiliation. A LDS pair and I got into it with the "it was revealed" horse shit. I ended that conversation a while later by saying, "It was just revealed to me that you're wasting my time. Have a nice evening." Truthfully, I was more POed that some 'elder' (who was about twenty-five years old) thought me stupid enough to buy into that stuff. A doctor I knew who was educated in Egypt told me why Muslims didn't eat pork. I asked why, if The Creator really meant it, He allowed it under certain circumstance, such as mentioned at the end of passage 5:4 in his holy book. What I got back was "Who are we to question the will of The Creator (he said Allah)?" He had me there. Observant Jews will not eat pork (Leviticus and Deuteronomy (and Genesis)), but some stretch it by eating in restaurants that aren't kosher. A Jewish friend and I got into that! And of course the Christians who are equally restricted by their holy book can rationalize it all so blithely by cherry picking: "Well, God meant the Jews, not US."

I don't really think that people who follow religions do so because they are evil, but some religious leaders are evil personified, and if in our ignorance we follow them, we in turn become evil. Such as those who listen to and believe the words of people like 'Pastors' Wayne Sapp and Terry Jones. The dumb shits in Afghanistan and Pakistan should take out their wrath on them. Talk about stupid, and talk about evil!

imo

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 06:41 AM

"Christianity, except for a few idiots is a tolerant religion."
In the Middle ages the Catholic Church extablished 'the Index Librorum Prohibitorum' a list of banned books. The Liborum lasted till 1966. I remember my father taking great delight in recommending one of the great classics of Irish literature, 'The Tailor and Ansty', which remained banned until the list until was abolished.
I believe that a Catholic marrying a non Catholic but wishing to marry in church has to agree to any children of the union being brought up Catholic.
All religions, given the opportunity, are capable of abusing power.
Can anybody confirm that it is prohibited for guides at the Grand Canyon to discuss its age for fear of giving offence to Creationists?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: pdq
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:54 AM

Too many people simply do not understand what "freedom of speech" is.

The only "crime" that the pastor could have committed by burning a Koran would come from not having a burning permit, if that was required. Also, if the book did not belong to him and he did not have permission to burn it.

The pastor committed a violent act against a pile of cellulose, nothing more. To commit violent acts against people (murder!) in response is an insane act by brainwashed thugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:56 AM

If ther eis no law against inciting international hatret, there should be and he should be tried for it.

I agree entirely, Silas. There should be a law against inciting any sort of hatred but I fail to see how burning a book can be called incitement to hatred. It is a book for heavens sake. It is an inanimate object, made of paper and ink. It is the message that is important and if that message cannot survive the without paper and ink, it is not worth keeping.

Oh, and can anyone tell me if is, or ever was, a criminal offence to burn the old 'Star Spangled Banner'?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Silas
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 10:56 AM

pdq, are you being serious?

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Silas
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM

No, sorry, it is much more than a book. I am not a person of faith, but I can see that this act was a deliberate attempt to insult a major religion, and was done with the intention of causing gross offense to people who have deeply held religious views.

If you stick your arm into a tigers cage, don't be surprised if he bites it off, he knows no better, but you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:36 PM

So those who murdered other people because of what the pastor did are justifiedt?

Get a grip, Dave, or at least learn to read the English language for comprehension. By what tortured logic and/or idiocy did you derive that statement from what I posted?

pastor committed a violent act against a pile of cellulose, nothing more

PeeDee, if you actually believe this crap, and are just not winding people up, you are worse than an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 01:59 PM

"If you stick your arm into a tigers cage, don't be surprised if he bites it off, he knows no better, but you do."
============
Are we to take it from this, Silas, that you think Islamists are the equivalent of dumb beasts and "know no better"? Or what is your point?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:23 PM

"If you stick your arm into a tigers cage, don't be surprised if he bites it off, he knows no better, but you do."

Unfortunately, in this case the tiger, having been made mad by those who controlled and brainwashed it, bit off heads, not arms - heads of innocent people who weren't even there when the arm was stuck into its cage.

I could understand it if they had attacked and beheaded Pastor Jones (understood, but not condoned). But I cannot fathom what was in their heads when they attacked and beheaded completely innocent people just because those people were different from them and, unlike Pastor Jones, were available.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:32 PM

I believe putting people in danger, knowingly and "without justification", is illegal in most, if not all, USA states.

I would suspect that this action (the burning one) could be protected under freedom of expression or freedom of speech. But, these mostly pertain to actions that do not endanger others.

Could this activity go beyond the rights guaranteed by free speech, such as reckless or malicious actions, or an action whose outcomes are blatantly obvious?

It is possible that it could be listed under "Reckless Endangerment", an action intentionally, knowingly and reasonably be seen as endangering the lives or safety of others, or directed to and likely to incite imminent lawless action.

Is it not like falsely yelling "FIRE!" in a crowd that could put people at risk, and could get you arrested?







Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_a_person_be_prosecuted_for_yelling_fire_in_a_crowded_building_when_there_is_no_fire#ixzz1IOI2fMlP

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:45 PM

What about the Danish cartoonist?
Also guilty of recklessly endangering lives?
Many died.
Salman Rushdie, for writing a book, not burning it?
His book was burned in piles and people died.
Guilty?

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:21 PM

Get a grip, Dave, or at least learn to read the English language for comprehension. By what tortured logic and/or idiocy did you derive that statement from what I posted?

And I suppose that your statement is meant to engender reasoned debate and cordial conversation, Greg? :-) Surely by the use of such confrontational language you are no less guilty of inciting hatred than the pastor himself. In fact, I feel so offended I think I will go and behead of few Gregs of my aquaintance...

OK, I admit that the justification theme was somewhat factuous. Made to illustrate the point that it was the mob who killed innocent people, not the pastor. The point still stands though. You state quite clearly that the pastor should be held responsible. Tell us, please, responsible for what? Responible for the deaths of innocent people? Responsible for creating a mob of unruly, violent idiots? Surely then, if he is responsible for that, then you will be responsible for anything that I do in my anger at your intimation that my understanding of the English language is somewhat less than yours.

In fact, you now owe me a bottle of Gavi and whatever inroads I make into the Famous Grouse to get over my upset. My lawyers will be in touch and I suggest that it is you who needs to 'get a grip'. Whatever that may mean.

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:39 PM

Surely by the use of such confrontational language you are no less guilty of inciting hatred than the pastor himself.

OK then Dave: Fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: pdq
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:44 PM

" In fact, I feel so offended I think I will go and behead of few Gregs of my aquaintance..."   ~   Dave the Gnome

As you can see, that would be pointless with the actual Mudcat pest of which you speak. That he/she/it is already acephalous.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:01 PM

Is that supposed to be offensive, Greg? Surely you can do better.

Wanker.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:05 PM

BTW - Nice one. pdq. I wouldn't have known what acephalous meant until you said it but it is a far better insult than my feable attempt :-)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 04:47 PM

OK then, PeeDee, also fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 05:37 PM

Just so's everyone's gettin' along . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 05:43 PM

Trying to isolate the actions of a group of fanatics as representative of Muslims
world-wide is like blaming the downing of passenger airlines on birds.

There are fanatics in the U.S. who belong to certain Neo-Nazi, militia groups,
skinheads and fundamentalist nut-cases who could it they weren't held back could match the crazies in Afghanistan.

What Terry Jones did was psychotic and engendered a reaction by psychotics.
To blame this on Islam is particularly nutty.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 05:45 PM

Was the Danish cartoonist psychotic?
Salman Rushdie?
People died because of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 05:58 PM

The logic going down in this thread is very strange.

You mean to tell me that if a Muslim fanatic in Afghanistan should burn a bible and some equally fanatic Christian in the US kills and beheads a few Muslims because of that then the Muslim is responsible?

The mind boggles.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 06:23 PM

Irony. Non-Muslim prejudice is evidenced by Muslims killing people because they feel insulted? That's the problem with the Muslim extremists in the first place. That "I cut off my sister's ear because she said my shoes were ugly" (she MADE me do it) garbage didn't get us out of trouble when we were kids. It doesn't work with most justice systems I can think of, and the idea that it would is ludicrous.

The prick in Florida was, and is, a prick, but he's not guilty of what others do. If we in the US can burn flags and books of all sorts, if ass-hats on Fox news can constantly denigrate our President, and if we can demonstrate against government policies IN government buildings, a prick burning a Koran is within his rights. After all, he didn't cut off anybody's head. I DO hope karma gets him, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 07:47 PM

49

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 07:48 PM

50