BS: (UK Only) Anyone going to today's march?

Subject: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 21 Sep 02 - 11:18 PM

Any UK catters going to the protest march today?

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:05 AM

Much as I would love to, to try and preserve the livelihood of my family, the industries that kept this country fed in times of war and trouble, to protect the way of life of millions of people who don't happen to live in the the Home Counties or have a 9-5 job, I can't for health reasons. However, they have my support, I've signed any CA petitions that have come my way, I've openly defended their rights to freedom of speech and fought many a verbal battle on their behalf.

And to the small faction that I know are only in this for self publicity and to cause trouble - one day, I hope you need a farmer to provide your food, supply your drink and keep your green land pleasant. What am I saying - unless you eat air and drink rain, you DO need farmers, and dairymen and pickers and planters and all those other dirty, smelly, shit laden, back and heart breaking jobs that you in your nice suburban semis know nothing about.

To (possibly) lighten up, or maybe to just illustrate a point - I overheard a mother/child debate in the supermarket near my work in Central London... child: 'Mum, can I have an apple now?' Mum (in extremely posh voice): 'No, these are for home, there aren't enough, they don't grow on trees you know!'..... I couldn't decide which was worse... a child denied a healthy snack or a grown woman who thinks apples come from factories!

If you are marching, be safe. If not, be supportive.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 04:08 AM

If the march was just about the issues Liz is talking about, I would support it. However, my prediction is that over the next few months we will hear repeatedly that quarter of a million turned out in support of fox-hunting, livelihood will be interpreted just as those directly supported by the hunt and the important wider issues Liz mentions will be completely ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: pavane
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:01 AM

Would love to go, as I live in a rural setting, but not practicable due to weekly commute.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:16 AM

WELL SAID LTS. People live too far from their roots these days, and in their rise to middle classdom, they find time to develop a conscience. The problem is that most of them get their political conscience from politicians, and that's the worst place to find anything. The anti-hunt lobby is almost wholly middle class, and is a fashion item in the same way as flares are. We all know that fashion and public opinions are cyclical, so there's a chance that some day folk music may become a cause celebre. Of course when that happens we'll all be heroes for keeping the flame burning through the dark days of Hip Hop,Rap,Garage, and all these other wonderfully absurdly named music fads.
Rant over...Wish I was on the march.....Giok

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:28 AM

No I won't be going on the march, because the people who live in countryside live in a different world from the rest of us. I mean, the posh cafes down in London like the Dorchester and places like that are flinging their doors opened and other posh places, I just wonder if they would do that if it was a trade union protest march.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:32 AM

so that after their march they can go and get a meal. I some how don't think that these people will go to MacDonalds or KFC.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:35 AM

Liberty & Livelyhood are not what this march is about.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 06:20 AM

I don't remember seeing many 'green wellies' on marches for the Liberty and Livelyhood of miners, steelworkers and many of the other causes I have and would support.

There are indeed problems for workers in the countryside and eleswhere. However, I doubt if the organisers of this march are really much concerned about these.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:29 AM

Yes, but you've got to remember, Shambles - when miners and steelworkers were trying to protect their communities and their livelihood, they didn't make a central issue of defending the right to preserve dog-fighting and cock-fighting. If they had I'm sure they'd have had support from the blood-sports enthusiasts.

Poor people in the countryside have always had a rough time, especially from rich landowners. Issues like the run-down of small farming, and the practice landlords have of chucking people out of their tied cottages to sell them to rich townies who then join the local hunt - somehow these have always been brushed aside.

I suspect that if some farm-labourer were to go on that march with a banner saying "Save the countryside - and sod the hunt", he'd be in trouble when he got back home.

There are a lot of people in the countryside would be happy to see the end of hunting, and they must resent the way issues that matter, such as rural housing and schools and transport and employment, are now being exploited and tarnished by the blood sports brigade, led by very people who have been largely responsible for what has gone wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:37 AM

I forgot to mention the other reason why the left wing, Islington dwelling, so called intelligentsia, don't like country pursuits. Class envy. It has been said of course the socialism is the politics of envy.
It was also said that if a man was not a socialist by the time he is 18, then he has no heart. If however he is still a socialist at 30, he has no brains.
It's not that I don't have a social conscience, it's just that so many of these do-gooders are so rabid, that if they were a dog, they'd be shot. There is no room in their rant for the consideration of the other persons viewpoint. It's a case of if you're not with me you're against me,and consequently many of them have an enormous chip on their shoulder.
Failte....Giok

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:52 AM

And people who are against cruelty to children are just namby pamby pinkos who want to disregard the traditional way of life of sections of society with which they don't wish to associate.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:05 AM

That's what I mean, drag in totally silly and emotive statements, and specious comparisons, to try and prove a point. NOBODY mentioned cruelty to children Kevin, please don't muddy the waters.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:07 AM

Nobody mentioned Socialism until you chose to in a silly and emotive statement...

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 08:23 AM

It is a socialist government that is proposing to bring this law in, therefore it is necessary to mention the word. I know that this government tries hard to conceal its socialist roots, in the same way as TB tries to pretend he's not Scottish. The saddest part of it all is that they deceived the electorate into voting for them, thinking they still stood for the same things as they did originally.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 09:47 AM

You'd probably find more people in favour of hunting among trendies in Islington than you would among working class people in most parts of London (including Islington, which is still mostly working class).

In fact there've been surveys which indicate that most peple in the countryside are also opposed to hunting. Including that raving lefty Ann Widdicombe.

They keep a bit quieter about it (not Ann Widdicombe of course) - and you can't blame them for that.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:05 AM

I hardly think that this particular government represent the socialist ideal, but that as maybe. Though not a tory supporter, I have no real problem with fox hunting-though I do feel the fox has a biological niche that it is foolish to remove, since it will fill with rats as scavengers.But then the converse is also true, if foxes are left unchecked, then the possibility of them increasing dramatically in number is also real. I do agree that many people have little idea of country life and the social infrastructure within it. I myself believe in let and let live, even if it means hunting foxes in tradditional dress and the ceremonial that goes with it.(I don't go to watch soccer, but wouldn't stop anyone else) We would all be up in arms if they banned Morris dancing, though that's hardly a good analagy. But traddition should be encouraged, whether it's a Morris or a hunt.We (the collective we-)do our best to allow and encourage ethnic minorities to celebrate their culture, why can't we celebrate ours?

The farmers and other countryside dwellers do sustain and protect an environment that it rapidly decreasing. They manage land, and are leaders in conservation, much like anglers have preserved and enriched the nations waters.

When they have banned fox hunting, will they start on fishing next? then what? Maybe in a few years, internet chat will be more closely monitored, since large numbers of people can discuss whatever they wish without check or hinderence at the moment.What'l we do then?

Anyway, though I dispise the upperclasses, who took the land by virture of money, power and a failure of the law to protect the poorer individuals, I would leave them alone,in this respect since they employ a large number of people who rely upon them to keep their families fed (Though the rich bastards could pay them a lot more, and still be rich).(This is not class jealousy, or envy)

Please don't come back at me with;so you think bear baiting or cock fighting are Ok, or that it's ok since it seems to be something of a traddition that the rich and powerful can abuse children etc-it's not worth the argument.

The fox is a beautiful animal, splendid colours from ruddy brown to silver, see a silver fox on a moonlit night, there's a magical sight. I suppose see it in your chicken run, having savaged your hens then it's a different matter.

If we don't protect the countryside, it won't exist for much longer. A new road here, a new motorway from here to there, a new housing estate, farming on the verge of collapse, old farms being sold for little money so that the new rich can turn it into a private retreat with no sensible land mangement ideas except private golf courses etc-that's hardly a good idea!

We live with far too much interference in our lives, more laws, more rules-oneness with whose ideal? Silly though it may seem, though not dissimilar, as one small group is going to dictate to the many, the Plaid are going to ban sweets and crisps from schools if they get a majority next time.When will the phrase mind your own business become popular again?

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Mac Tattie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 10:11 AM

The "comment" in the "sevendays" section of to-days Sunday Herald went straight to the point with "Why it is wrong to turn the countryside into "us v them". My own point is that many,if not all, of the "marchers" who have real muck on their boots and hands will be there on the ORDERS of their masters and, in effect, owners. There are real and growing problems in rural areas and all stem back to the stranglehold the Lairds and Lords of the manor have over, as they see it, their captive, cheep, workforce.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 11:05 AM

"The fox is a beautiful animal, splendid colours from ruddy brown to silver, see a silver fox on a moonlit night, there's a magical sight. I suppose see it in your chicken run, having savaged your hens then it's a different matter."

I have seen that, as has my mother and my grandmother, etc and we still all see (or saw in past generations) the fox as a beautiful animal and don't blame it for managing to find ways in to what ultimatley has been poor protection for the birds. My mother still keeps hens and we did our best to save the lives of some cubs only a matter of weeks ago...

McTattie my well have a point. The Welsh countryside I lived in from about 7 till 13 an later from 18 till 38 had no fox hunting (with hounds - once in a while, a fox was shot) but my mother describes her part of rural Shropshire as being almost feudal with the "lord of the mannor".

It seems to me from the stories I've heard her tell that the real village kids used to have fun with the fox hunting. They hated the "sport" and their game was trying to put the hounds off the scent - rebellion from children - the only ones not afraid to "voice thier opinion". I wonder if this happened in other parts of the country?

Another side to the country I know is little secrets, e.g. friend of my mother could take us to spots where there are badgers that only trusted members of the community know about. There are so called "country people" and people who know the countryside and country life.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 11:10 AM

Here is a link to a set of opinonn polls on all this carried out by MORI (who are neutral on thigs like this, and would be out of by=usiness if they weren't).

Among other things it indicates a significant majority of countryside people as wanting to see a ban.

Incidentally there are about as many foxes living in towns these days as in the country. They are no fools. Any time I'm out late I expect to see one along the way; and I met one walking down the street at lunchtime the other way, cool as a cucumber. A pack of foxhounds and hunters would be far more disruptive.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 12:17 PM

Since when has New Labour had any connection with Socialism?They dropped the Socialst connection last century. And the anti hunt thing will be all we hear about after the march.Not the real problems of the countryside.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 01:00 PM

Here's todays bit of useless information.... did you know that the NSPCC (National Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Children) started as AN OFFSHOOT of the RSPCA (Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals), and about 10 years AFTER it.

The march is not about the rights of animals, although the various jobs at stake if various forms of hunting are banned is an issue, it's about the rights of the children of present day farmers, who in 5 - 10 years time will have no options left to them but to move into the cities and farming will become extinct.

There is a fox family living quite happily not 1000 yards from my house in East London. Haven't seen any farmers living here happily recently. Haven't seen many farmers (and 3 of my 5 uncles are farmers/agricultural labourers) living happily anywhere recently. That's what I'm supporting.... the right of this country to retain an agricultural heritage and an agricultural future.

Todays' other piece of useless information.... the farm I spent much of my childhood on, makes the equivalent of more money now showing people how farming was done 70 years ago, than it did as a working farm, 70 years ago when my grandfather worked it and my mother was born on it. However then, it employed 10 people full time, 40+ during harvest (dairy herd of over 300, 4 working horses and market garden), gave the workers 2 meals a day and was practically self supporting. Now it employs 15 and has 6 cows.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 01:02 PM

The fox is a beautiful animal, splendid colours from ruddy brown to silver, see a silver fox on a moonlit night, there's a magical sight. I suppose see it in your chicken run, having savaged your hens then it's a different matter.

If I leave my car unattended with lots of flashy and attractive items inside on display, I can rant at those who would take advantage but I am not totally unaware of the posibility of someone being tempted and the responsibilty to protect my car and things is mine.

So it is with the fox, our bad husbandry should not be blamed on the fox. It is the same with the badger (and foot and mouth). Governments have decided the best way to deal with farmers problems, is to allow them to kill something. It does not solve the problem but it seems to keep the farmers happy for a while and stops them blaming the Government.

No one is seriously maintaining anymore that hunting with dogs has any effect on fox populations. We all kill more on the roads with our cars that hunts ever manage to do.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 01:15 PM

If the anti-hunt people who are a majority in country disrtrcts held a march in protest at the devastation that has been caused to the countryside,and its inhabitants, there be a lot more townspeople turning out to join them. But they wouldn't have the big landowners and the Eton schoolboys and so forth. And the media wouldn't be too interested I suspect. The press and the telly always prefer a nice simple story.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 01:20 PM

People marching in protestation against the destruction of their livelihoods are not necessarily anti hunt protesters.

Anti hunt protesters are not necessarily marching to protest at the lot of the farmer, neither are they all going to be farmers whose land is invaded and fences ruined by hunters.

Neither are all hunt supporters going to be Hooray Henries who don't know a John Deere from a Massey Fergusson.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 01:35 PM

And to answer the initial question - around half a million people were counted on the march... so probably nearer 750,000. So far, only 3 arrests. All that to protest about the votes cast by a mere 200+ MPs, who are bent on destroying the way of life of half the population.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 02:08 PM

Life in the country is market driven like everywhere else. There's no plot agin "the countryside" and if jobs do go it's just dictated by supply and demand. I mean, our ancestors all lived in the country prior to the the economic changes brought about by the Industrial Rev. I don't recall 407,000 people marching to save their jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 02:27 PM

I think DMCG [3rd post in the thread], is exacly right, i am going out now put i will post more about this after i get back.john

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 02:33 PM

Hunting foxes is not "the way of life of half the population". No more than badger baiting was. It's a pastime indulged in by a minority, some of whom live in the country, many of whom are townies.

It would have been quite possible to set the hunting issue on one side - to have organised a rally in support of fox hunting one weekend, and a demonstration about all the other problems another weekend. That could then have been joined by people in the countryside who would actually like to see hunting banned (who are a majority), together with all the rest of us who live in towns and who share the anger at has been done to the country way of life.

But that would not have suited the people who want to use countryside discontent to try and defend their pastime. Especially since, many of them have played a crucial role in bringing about the problems in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 02:34 PM

Yes, you are right, life is supply and demand... but when you are permitted by the government to supply a only a certain amount of product and not one ounce, gram, pint or half litre more despite demand, then things are badly wrong. And what happens to that demand? Well, the deficit which Britain IS NOT ALLOWED TO PRODUCE is then imported from abroad, at a higher cost to everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 02:50 PM

And if you don't recall 400,000 people marching to save the jobs of those affected by the Industrial Revolution, then you best go look in the DT for a few of the related songs.

We still sing songs now protesting about working conditions and lack of work (Four loom weaver, Blackleg miner, to name 2), people will still be singing songs about the hunter and his way of life in years to come.

And concerning hunting.... I am not a hunt supporter. I have done my fair share of sabotage in the past because I believe there is a more humane way of disposing of predators. I am not soppy about foxes, they are animals that eat other animals, have pretty coats (but only if they haven't been round the block a few times), will kill for pleasure not just for food, and they, like other animals, carry diseases like rabies and distemper. I am the product of a long line of agricultural and rural labourers, whose livestock were the prey of these animals. It is not just the dubious 'pleasures' of the huntsman which is affected by these Bills, but the livelihood of the associated trades. Farriers and blacksmiths, grooms and stablehands, trainers and breeders, a whole heap of people who will be made jobless if hunting is banned. And then these people will have to sign on. And who will have to pay for their social security??? The loss of the farrier and blacksmith will mean that other working horses will have to go farther for shoeing; machinery that could have been fixed by the smith (and how many Forge or Old Smithy Garages are there up and down the country?) will have to be scrapped or replaced. Prices will go up because the smiths can't make a living, another family homeless and on the dole....

The whole thing is a chain, take out one link, and the chain falls apart.

LTS

Go think. Hunting is not just a group of Hoorays in pinks.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Big Tim
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:01 PM

I hope they do ban fox-hunting, a, because it a pointless, selfish, cruel sport, b, because Prince Charles has, apparently, promised to go abroad and spend the rest of his life skiing if they do. The bugger can afford it!

PS I live in the country.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:12 PM

Kevin, you seem to place a great deal of importance on figures, and particularly the one about the majority of country dwellers being in favour of a ban. If this is a true reflection of the facts, I would like to add one more figure to the equation, and that is. Of the people classed as rural for the purposes of the poll, how many are country people born and bred, and how many are incomers parachuted into a rural area they don't try to understand. These are the people who take farmers to court for making a mess on the road, and set the law on smallhoders, because their cock crows too early in the morning. While I don't dispute the figures you quote, I would challenge their validity, on these grounds.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Mac Tattie
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:17 PM

Fox or stag hunting, practiced as a "pleasurable" pastime is indefencible. Full stop. Farming has been one of the most subsidised industries in Britain over the last thirty years or more. What have we have got in return? Less people working and living on the land, a shrinking wild life population, BSE and the future spectre of CJD and last year the worst ever outbreak of foot and mouth. (Which was a klondyke year for many in the agriculture bussiness) "The countryside is safe with us", we keep hearing, aye right. There is a fight going on here, but not town agin country but privilage, welth and position closing rank to protect their self intrests at any cost nomater who or what gets in their way.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:32 PM

And I live in a city, despite being born in the country. The city could not function without the country, but the country can function without the city, if it were given the opportunity. It managed it for thousands of years before, it should be given the chance to do it now.

I moved away from the country because I got married to a city dweller. My prospects in the country were minimal, because there was no call for someone who can milk a cow by hand, reap with a scythe and sickle, spent hundreds of backbreaking hours planting and harvesting and can make bread, butter and jam from raw ingredients. By the time I was old enough to work at the milking, my grandfather's quota had been cut so many times it was no longer a viable option to keep the herd. How can you be a farmer's boy (or girl in my case) when there are no farmers left?

My generation is the first in my family (and I can trace it back over 300 years)not to work with the land, because we had no option but to leave it or face a life on the dole or at best, a wage that works out about 2/3rds of the legal minimum wage.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:40 PM

True enough Giok - and at the same time, how many of the hunt supporters are people who've moved out from the town?

The point is, attitudes towards hunting divide the countryside population. In a protest about the things that are more central it doesn't belong, and it's selfish to link the two issues. A lot of miners enjoyed hare coursing, but nobody ever tried confusing that issue with the fight to save the jobs.

As for the farriers and the blacksmiths and all that, drag hunts could mean there was still the same demand for their services, assuming that the people who go hunting aren't just there for the kill, which I actually think is rather unlikely in most cases. I'd imagine its really rather fun riding around the countryside, after a pack of hounds, but a lot more enjoyable if you aren't out there trying to kill foxes.

If Morris Dancing involved ritual slaughter iI'd be agin it. Maybe it did one time, who knows? But it's better without the blood and bodies. And the same goes for hunting.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 03:55 PM

Liz said: the country can function without the city

Well I suppose if you want hark back 300 years and do without medicine, machinery and other technology, then I suppose it probably could.

If that's really the life you want, why not sell up, buy a small holding and totally eschew modern life?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 04:05 PM

That's the point, it isn't 300 years... as I said, MY GENERATION - that's the last 30 years... and if I could make a small holding pay, I would, but that's just it, government quotas and restrictions mean it's an impossible task. A small farm is only allowed to produce so much. It gets fined if it produces too much. Trouble is, the amount it can produce legally isn't enough to make it a viable paying farm. Why do you think so many 'Farmers Markets' are springing up all over the place? Farmers have to go 120 miles to sell at prices to make it worthwhile, or have a huge farm.

All the computers, machines and technology in the world will not grow a potato, produce milk from grass or lay an egg.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 04:08 PM

Mmmm ! Morris dancing with ritual slaughter ? Now theres a rare thought.

The problems of rural deprivation, isolation, and insecurity are well documented - It is a pity that those who are now pretending to care about the major problems did not give a damn before thier "fox hunting" was threatened.

Something suggests to me that the whole issue of hunting with dogs is a red herring. It's more a cry of rage that the establishment, which tends to model it's self on a rural aristocracy, now finds it's self excluded from political power.

I'am afraid that various Lords and Ladies, wealthy bankers, and Ian Duncan Smith, do not convince me about thier sudden concern for the economic rights of the rural dweller.

I can rember whole communities being wiped out, sons deprived of the right to follow thier fathers in to employment. Oh yes, and when coalfield met countryside headlines in local papers such as the "Kentish Gazzette" - "Man in fight with miner"!

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 04:11 PM

And whoever thinks Morris dancing isn't a blood sport hasn't seen Albion dance recently (but then, not many people in England have, they average 2 gigs a year!)

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 04:18 PM

I agree with your last 2 posts entirely McGrath.

Liz, think on what McGrath has said. If hunting was left out of this do you think the Countryside Alliance would get more or less support?

My own suspicions about the organisation's motives together with my own anti-hunting feelings are sufficient to prevent me wanting to have anything to do with them regardless of whether some of the other issuses suh as ones you raised in your first post are valid causes for concern.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Ray Harding
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 04:58 PM

Liz,

Excuse my ignorance on such things, but could you please explain a bit more about these 'fines' As far as I understand CAP (Common Agricultural Policy) farmers get subsidies, not fines.

Ray

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:12 PM

"The problems of rural deprivation, isolation, and insecurity are well documented - It is a pity that those who are now pretending to care about the major problems did not give a damn before their "fox hunting" was threatened." - Gareth had it spot on.

All the arguments and protests about subsidies, grants, quotas and restrictions have been rumbling on ever since we joined the Common Market in the early 1970's! Not that I'm saying that was the problem, but it's a convenient cut off date that I can personally testify to.

I daresay it wouldn't have got such a high profile if the hunting lobby weren't involved, but maybe that was the last straw that broke the camels' back? One last blow to the livelihood of half the population? What is next might you ask? Maybe you would suddenly come up with a whole other heap of arguments for the treatment of jobless people if it were you made jobless.... or if the compulsory demise of the motor vehicle meant you had to walk a bit farther.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:15 PM

Liz,

Will you please stop saying that this is about half the population?

Half the nation aren't country dwellers or farmers, it's less than 10%

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:30 PM

Only 10% may be farmers or 'country dwellers' but the effects spread considerably farther than just them. That's the whole bloody point! Everyone is affected somehow, even if it is just an extra penny on a pint of milk.

But I think you may have a slanted view on just how many people live in cities.

My uncle is a farmer. He has a diary farm, which is one of the smaller variety. Last year, due to F&M he was forced to dump most of his milk because it could not be picked up. Travel restrictions between farms meant the tanker could not get to the plantroom, and he couldn't pump it up the hill to the tanker. He failed to meet his milk quota. He pleaded F&M, the government said 'tough'. He was given a subsidy because he had to subsequently slaughter his herd, but then had the majority of it taken away because he hadn't made his milk quota for a given month. That's what I mean by a fine.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 05:45 PM

According to The World Fact Book UK employment is divided: agriculture 1%, industry 19%, services 80% .

I have some sympathy for your position, but to invent figures off the top of your head (400 000 probably means 750 000, it's all the fault of 200 MPs etc) only serve to weaken your case

Depending on how you define 'city' and 'country' then you may come up with diffent figures

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST,Simon Richardson
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 06:52 PM

Whilst I find fox hunting decidedly abbhorent, I don't agree with banning it.

It's unduly cruel for certain, and I have a considerable personal distaste for the type of people who wish to do it.

However, (partly due to my current financial situation) I eat cheap eggs, bacon, lamb and chicken, and the animals that provide my dinner undoubtedly suffer too.

Calling for a ban on hunting, whilst continuing with my current diet would be quite hypocritical, however much I dislike the people who engage in and enjoy the 'sport' It also goes against my instincts of letting people live their lives as they wish if it doesn't adversly impact on others.

What does really annoy me about today's march was the cynical attempt to gain numbers by attempting to combine the 'fox issue' with other rural disquiets.

'Liberty and Livelyhood' was a ridiculous slogan.

The 'liberty' of country dwellers to go to a large supermarket in the nearest big town is the reason for the decline of local village shops

The 'liberty' of using cars is the reason for the lack of adequete public transport

The 'liberty' of being able to sell houses at a great profit to 'townies' is the reason for prices being so expensive

The 'livelyhood' of a farmer deciding to use modern machinery rather than local workers, is the reason for less rural jobs

Simon

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: JudeL
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:04 PM

Lies , damned lies and statistics. statistics can appear to support just about any position you care to name. It depends upon your definitions and which figures you use. Out of context figures, even those from the world fact book are just another way to be wrong with confidence. e.g. you quoted 80% as working in service industries, but people are who work in service industries lose their livelihood just as effectively as those who work directly in an industry if that form of employment disappears.

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:07 PM

Jude,

An explanation of exactly what you are trying to say, and a cohesive arguement would be helpful.

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: 9UK Only) Anyone going to todays march?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Sep 02 - 07:08 PM

Guest Simon - Target! Target! Target!!!!!!

And who whinged most about the UK's minimum wage ?

The rural landowner !

With your permission I would like to use your comments in a Labour Party leaflet, in our little valley.

Gareth