BS: Gun Crime

Subject: BS: Gun Crime
From: GUEST,lsd
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 05:39 AM

Recently we have been shocked by a string of teenage murders, all falling victim to knives and guns. Last week a 14 year boy was stabbed to death, the 7th Londoner under 16 murdered this year. It led to Tony Blair urging the community to do more to solve the gang problem.


Most of the murders are within the coloured community. Is this is cultural ? Many are afraid to ask this question as they are afraid of being viewed as racists.

The facts are there,there is no easy solution to the problem. It can't all be down to poverty. So why in Britain, the world's fifth richest nation, are kids butchering each other in the streets ?


It's not just a coloured problem, it's every ones problem now. What is the solution ?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 06:23 AM

It's not a colour-related problem, though it manifests itself among those communities. It's gang culture. I am not saying that the murders are all gang-related, but it is the gang culture that enables these young people to resolve their differences in such a manner, and it's the gang culture that arms them. IMHO, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 07:39 AM

With you 100 % , George. It"s West Side Story come to life in England"s green and pleasant land. How sad !!

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: kendall
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 08:14 AM

It starts in the home and ends in the hospital or morgue.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 11:00 AM

Agreed, it doesn't matter what ethnic background...what matters is kids growing up believing violence is the only way to resolve their differences.

And, it is a UK thing to still refer to a population as "coloured?" That has long been out of use across the pond.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 11:11 AM

Yes, sorry, it's UK English of a certain generation, I am afraid. It is a term that is still officially in use in places like South Africa too. It is not derogatory - never was, in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: GUEST,Pro-NAACP
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 11:22 AM

It's not derogatory here in the U.S. either. We have the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. I know lots of colored people who belong to the organization. But in the U.S. the population is being trained to focus on HOW something is said rather than WHAT'S being said. Notice how a thread about crime is turned into a semantical witch hunt by the hateful thought police. If the members of the NAACP are willing to let themselves be called colored in exchange for money, that's good enough for me. Freedom of speech and all that.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Slag
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 03:17 PM

I could tell you but you wouldn't believe me. For the interim, what you need is MORE and STRICTER gun control! Yeah, that will do it! How about a law where no knife blade can be longer than an inch and a half and cannot be sharpened so much as to cut human skin. It's the next step.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: kendall
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 03:52 PM

Don't forget blunt objects.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 05:11 PM

I would stop the sales of flick knives and daggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 05:15 PM

"the members of the NAACP are willing to let themselves be called colored in exchange for money"

I don't suppose there'd be any point in asking what the heck that's supposed to mean ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 05:16 PM

Yeah but it's so much easier with a gun. Just pull the trigger. Don't even think about it.
That's why in the State the Center For Disease Control has claimed that gun violence is one of the major epidemics here.

Gun control would help.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: fumblefingers
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 05:18 PM

Criminals and those in the market for illegal guns always make sure they aren't violating any laws before buying that special pistol.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 06:09 PM

yes but the more guns there are, the more chance of them falling into the wrong hands.

We simply don't want gun ownership to be as widespread as it is in America. Its easy for crooks, as it is, to get guns: we don't it to be any easier.

there are shops in our commmunity that have been providing the local toe rags with flick knives and weapons for years. I'd have them closed tomorrow if I could.

they aren't respectable sporting goods shops, they are grubby little bastards who want sorting out.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 06:20 PM

Like the spiked "war club" and the shotgun shell we found outside the library, the latter all tricked out so that it MIGHT go off like a mini-grenade when thrown.

I own guns, I shoot guns, and I enjoy shooting guns. Respectable shots do NOT knowingly sell guns to criminals or engage in "straw man" sales. Respectable gun owners lock their guns and ammo up, seperately.

But any culture which says to youth "Violence is THE ONLY answer" and "Weapons are ends in themselves" is asking for violence. Let's start in the home, in the schools, in the streets, and, especially, in the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: GUEST,lsd
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 06:55 PM

85% of those murdered by firearms in the United Kingdom since 1st January 2007 have been coloured. 90% of those charged with these murders are coloured. The figures show not all were gang members. Information, New Scotland Yard London. Knife crime tends to be higher among white youths.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 07:16 PM

Same old lack of depth. You want to know what is causing the problem? It is the same thing that always has caused these problems. It isn't guns. Guns have been readily available to members of my family for generations. Nary the first gun death.

Why do kids shoot each other? Simply put, hopelessness causes kids to shoot each other. Gangs, and the accompanying violence sprout where there is no hope. You are right when you say right wingers are the cause of these deaths. But it isn't because they support gun rights. It's because they support the taking away of hot lunch, and Headstart, the weakening of labor laws, the subsidization of the loss of decent paying jobs, and on and on.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 07:23 PM

In the UK, I would bet there is a corollary to the weakening of the labor laws, the destruction of the social safety net, and the increasing violet crime rate.

This silly talk of this being cultural with "the coloured" is just nonsense and intellectually weak. The amount of melanin in one's skin, or where one,s ancestors came from have nothing to do with the likelihood of committing violent crime. But the class that is put upon ecomomically, subject to discrimination and lack of opportunity, that is the group where one will see the highest crime rates.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: John O'L
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 07:28 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The long term solution to all social inequality is free and comprehensive education.
(I am taking it as given that social inequality causes of 99% of crime.)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: GUEST,patty o'dawes
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 07:44 PM

Not too sure about the relation to 'the weakening of the labor laws' these crimes in the most are school kids. Not sure what is meant by the 'destruction of the social safety net' in UK context either really.

Sure these kids are scared so they hunt in packs, but they are living in a celeb hungry time - they want to be someone, and without the education to achieve by legal means they resort to being the biggest/meanest/baddest on the streets.

The uneducated impressing the uneducated. Stab before you get stabbed mentality. They eat gun worshipping movies and music for breakfast, dinner and tea and these are the heroes they look up to.

They don't want to be like their grandparents , working two jobs to support a family. Too slow to satisfy their appetite. They need a quick McFix and unfortunately it comes with bullets.

Roll on the next trend, this one won't die out until it is replaced. Kids need trends, always have and always will. We are witnessing the trend favoured by the throwaway generation at present.

They are a minority and do not represent the vast UK black community.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 09:20 PM

I will operate from the assumption that your post, Patty O'dawes, is a legitimate one. The connection between young folks acting out in a violent ways, and labor laws and social safety nets, is fairly obvious to me. Neighborhoods decline, education levels decline, crime increases in direct relation to the economic health of the area. When good jobs are available, when social safety nets (such as Headstart here in the US, hot meal programs, after school programs, education programs for disadvantaged) are in place, the youth of the area don't feel the hopelessness. Families are more stable. To be sure there is much more involved, and I don't discount your contention with regard to young people acting out. But those things aren't new, young folks have always acted out. And the fact that they are doing so in a violent way has always been the case as well. It occurs when the gap between the richest and the rest widens, and money centralizes in fewer hands.

I believe that gun crime is a component of a larger issue of violent crime. Guns, in the hands of responsible people are not responsible for the rise in gun deaths.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 09:24 PM

No more than the "gansta rappers" represent African-Americans. 99.9+% are decent, hardworking folks who want the same thing as everyone else: a chance for a good home, enough to pay the bills, a chance for themselves and their kids....

Reagan's "Social Safety Net" has been ripped to shreds in the US. As Mick said, hopelessness grows. And what Janis sang is correct: Freedom's just another word for "nothin' left to lose." Then the blood starts to run in the streets.

And it will, it will.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 09:33 PM

Considering that, in the UK, pistols were banned following the Dunblane incident and that flick knives were banned back in the 1950's then Britain should be totally free of gun and knife crime.
At least, that is what our politicians would have us believe when these laws were enacted.
So, blame the politicians for selling us more lies!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 03:08 AM

I could show you a shop window full of flick knives not four miles from here.

Most of us never see a gun from one years end to the next - and that's how we prefer it. Not even our cops carry guns. Thanks to our harsh repressive gun laws - most the time they don't need it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 04:07 AM

Gun laws and gun control, irrespective of how rigorously enforced, will not take guns out of the equation. Since Hungerford and Dunblane the incidence of gun crime in the UK has rocketed, the guns being used are illegal imports, not guns taken in household burglaries. With the exception of the shotgun most sporting guns are not suitable for criminal purposes. I liked the story of the would be armed robber in Glasgow who knocked over a sub-post office with a sawn-off shotgun. He took less than £1500 and was caught with all the cash almost immediately after the robbery. When asked where he got the gun, he said that he had taken it from a house during a burglary. The police then asked if he had sawn the barrel off the gun. When the robber said yes, the policeman showed the robber the makers plate on the gun - Holland & Holland - and told the thicko that he had just destroyed a shotgun worth about £20,000 to steal less than £1500. For someone to steal any of the guns I own they would have to find then break into not one but three alarmed safes, one contains the weapons all of which have essential working parts removed when stored, the second safe contains those parts, the third safe contains the ammunition.

In the early to mid 1960's when they first attempted to clean up knife/razor crime in Glasgow a mechanism that exists under Scottish Law was used rather effectively - the tacking on at the end of pronouncement of sentence the words "without remission". Any found carrying and offensive weapon or found guilty of assault with an offensive weapon served their full sentence. It worked then, maybe it would work now. Anyone found carrying a knife without very good reason should automatically be sentenced to five years in prison. The only time I now carry a knife is when hunting, I used to carry one at work because it was considered essential safety equipment.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 04:18 AM

I am in favour of gun controls, but only as an auxiliary measure. The problem, IMHO is not cause by the simple availability of guns; I honestly think it is the gang culture, and one has to go to the reasons for the creation of such a culture.

No, Guest,1sd, it isn't colour, no point trolling with that old saw again. But it could well be social status, poverty, lack of priviledge, lack of legitimate other interests for the youngsters etc. It is these things that frequently lead to the creation of gangs, often among the underpriviledged and downtrodden in ANY society, as a misguided attempt to regain self-esteem and feel in control of their lives. Stupid, I know, but there it is.

Education would help too, like gun controls. And I like Teribus' idea about "no remission" for such crimes too. You essentially have to load the stakes against whatever "benefit" the underpriviledged might gain from gang membership or gang-like behaviour/culture.

Of course, the surest way to achieve such a balance is to improve their circumstances, so that they are no longer underpriviledged.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 08:56 AM

As Bonecruncher wrote flick knives were banned back in the 1950's (in the u.k.- proper definition = self-opening knives)

weelittledrummer 'I could show you a shop window full of flick knives not four miles from here.'

If this is true (which I doubt. They may look like 'flick' knive but will not be) then have you reported it to the police. If they do nothing then a letter to any national newspaper will do the trick as they pounce on such stories.

As a target shooter I hear such rumours often as folk try to bad-mouth guns, knives etc. When faced with proving their 'facts' these people turn out to have nothing.

I am not saying this is the case with you WLD but you are doing no-one any favours by claiming illegal things here but not reporting them. IF these are 'flick' knives & a youth buys one & commits a murder with it, will you feel guilty for not reporting the shop?

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 11:22 AM

The place is hardly a secret, I think they must be operating somehow inside the law.

How sure are you about them being illegal? I don't see how the police could NOT be aware of them. I don't want to be going to the police and looking a prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: GUEST,Black Hawk - member on other PC
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 01:59 PM

WLD - I am presuming the shop you mention is in the U.K.

Self-opening knives have been illegal most of my lifetime (I was born in 1949). I understand that the law was passed due to the 'Teddy Boy' era when 'flick' knives were popular. Many knives are now made to the same design but without the self-opening mechanism (spring) so can give the owner the 'Kudos' of a flick knife without breaking the law. As a user of various knives for various crafts I find a self-opening knife very useful but am not allowed to own one. Think of somebody trapped in a burning car by their seatbelt with one arm trapped, broken etc. There are many instances of usefulness (during WW2 a 'gravity' knife was issued to pilots in case they were tangled in a tree after bailing out). It is not the knife, gun, sword, hammer, golf club etc. that is dangerous, it is the user. Hit 'em hard with no parole, remission etc.
If you are in doubt, phone the police without leaving your name. If the shop is trading illegally it should be closed down.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: GUEST,Black Hawk agen
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 02:51 PM

Don't know how to do blue clicky things but for info on banned knives try http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/prohibited/

(just found this by googling (they can't touch ya forit))

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: GUEST,Scoville at Dad's
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 03:16 PM

Here you go, Black Hawk.

BTW, there IS a blue clicky at the bottom right of your text screen that says "Make a link ("blue clicky")" that will help you if you blue-clicky on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 03:21 PM

okay - I'll check it out next time I go past. thanks for your trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: GUEST,Black Hawk - still on other PC
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 03:22 PM

Thanks Scoville - I'll play with that link sometime& learn how.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 03:30 PM

No probs WLD.

I collect knives as I am an engineer & a good knife is good steel. A well made knife can be a work of art with very high craftsmanship. Yobbo's use stanley knives etc. available at any DIY but it is quality knives that get the bad name.
My brother has lived most of his life around the Sheffield area & knew most of the old-time knife makers (cutlers). Some of their handmade knives are the best TOOLS I have for my woodworking hobbies.
But illegal dealers only harm legitimate outlets.

Sorry to rant on but more people should realise that it is not the object that is dangerous but the person. (Remember the Glasgow gangs with razor blades sewn in their flat cap brims?)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 03:32 PM

For once I agree with Teribus. "No remission" is the correct verdict for one who uses a gun in committing a crime. There is no excuse. This is true with any weapon as far as I'm concerned.

When I served jury duty if I found out that a gun was used in the commission of a crime, my verdict was automatically guilty. That kept me off the panel in many cases.

If gun owners are not responsible in their use, then the guns should be taken away from them to protect the public. Responsible gun use such as target practice is a "right" but if the line is crossed, then the right should be forfeited.

The government has a role in the protection of the public by taking weapons away from criminal users.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 03:34 PM

My brother carried a switchblade when he was on flight status with the USAF. As mentioned, it was issued so that he could cut his way out of a potentially deadly situtation -- with his parachute, not with other people. He still has it; it's bright International Orange and looks like a large, two-bladed, ordinary pocketknife (the second blade is a hook with the inside edge sharpened, intended for cutting risers with one hand; it is not automatically opened).

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Slag
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 03:42 AM

A. Hitler had a great gun control program. Register, confiscate and then shoot anyone who held out! My father knew a German woman whose father dutifully turned in all his guns to Hitler's boys---except for one: a non functioning pistol that his own father had given to him. They found it when they searched his house (no doubt, without a warrant!). They drug him out into the street and shot him to death in front of his family. Just one anecdotal story among thousands of similar anecdotal stories.

Brittan underwent a similar paroxysm of gun hysteria a few years before the outbreak of WWII. When it seemed that German invasion was immanent They called on who? The US! Who helped them and DONATED over a million private weapons for the defense of their homeland? The National Rifle Association of the USA. We remember. I wonder if we will ever be called on again? I wonder what our response will be? If the anti-gunners have their way, we wouldn't be able to respond. Chairman Mao stated (in his "Little Red Book") that " all political power flows from the barrel of a gun." That man knew what he was talking about.

I know a lot of you folk have personal reasons and convictions for not wanting to own weapons and I respect that but if you ever need a righteous and armed person to tip the balance of a bad situation to your favor don't deny me my right to keep and bare arms!

And, as already stated, a pox to those who would abuse said right in order to commit crimes. A double punishment to those who commit crimes with a gun or a blade.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:17 AM

It has always seemed to me that if you carry a weapon when committing a crime you had already decided to use the weapon. Therefore, any death or injury from any cause resulting from the crime, even if it is not directly related to the weapon, should be considered premeditated murder.

No remission, no probation, no parole, and hard labor for the rest of their lives, at a minimum.

But I'm very conservative about this sort of thing, probably because weapons safety and proper use and personal responsibility for the use of weapons and all sorts of stuff like that was pounded and drilled into me from the age of (about) eight years old.

(Right now, right here in Pocatello, Idaho we have a trial going on. Two 16-year-old males stabbed a 16-year-old female classmate to death while she was "housesitting" for a family friend. According to the videotape they made before, during, and after the event the males did it because "murder is freedom." They also planned to kill others the same way.)

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:18 AM

There's a show that turns up on satellite tv every once in awile, "Teen Thrill Killers", which is a documentary. Very interesting and disturbing. It looks at the teenage brain, and teen group dynamics, and talks to some distressingly "normal" kids who somehow became involved in those sort of absolutely senseless killings ...

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:12 PM

'It has always seemed to me that if you carry a weapon when committing a crime you had already decided to use the weapon. Therefore, any death or injury from any cause resulting from the crime, even if it is not directly related to the weapon, should be considered premeditated murder.'


It seems to me - if you as a society put muderous weapons within the easy reach of people who quite obviously do not have enough 'up top' to deal with implications of ownership - then you as a society bear a grave responsibility for the numerous things that are going to go wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:21 PM

Unfortunately here as in Britain there is no easy solution. No remission (parole) is a start adn just for the PITA's who carry a weapon anyway tack additional time on say five or ten years. Meanwhile start working on how to improve the lot of those in need and provide some social stability and jobs so they're not turning to crime because theyre are no options. Lastly treat everyone the same.If an O.J. or a Britney etc committs a crime that would get the ordinary joe put in jail for ten years, slam them in a cell for ten years. Just my thoughts. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 02:19 PM

Neil, I quite agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 03:16 PM

In the US we spend our money on counselors for the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: GUEST,lsd
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 04:55 PM

Firstly I wish to express my sadness at the events in America today.
So I would like to hear the reactions of the pro gun members here now.

I am waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:20 PM

They will say the same things they always have....nothing will change their attitudes because they WANT guns, so any rationalization will do.

They think that because THEY use weapons responsibly, everyone who hasn't been convicted of a crime should have legal access **UNTIL** they commit a crime. Today we see what 1st offenses can mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:23 PM

Today I am waiting for more information before making any assumptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Slag
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:28 PM

What a day for tragedy. My heart goes out to those who lost loved ones and to the entire nation. They were all a part of us.

To quote myself from a few entries above, "if you ever need a righteous and armed person to tip the balance of a bad situation to your favor don't deny me my right to keep and bare arms!"

Gun laws made no difference to the mad man who perpetrated these heinous crimes. Indeed, in just about every gun related crime, gun laws are broken. It seems the only effect of the law is to lay blame and determine punishment.

But the other, bigger effect of many of these laws is a chilling effect on the honest, law abiding citizenry! In fact, these laws are in direct contradiction of the second amendment which say that "the right of the PEOPLE (emphasis mine) to keep and bare arms shall NOT BE INFRINGED (again). I cannot help but think that if a few of the students had been armed there would have been a very different outcome. At the very least, they would have had a fighting chance.

No, it's not pleasant to contemplate but it is a truth from time immemorial: there are times when the only way to defend your life is with lethal force. Sticking your head in the sand or in some ill-conceived gun law will not change that truth. Like a good insurance policy, you hope you never have to use it but thank God it's there.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:35 PM

I'm not sure if now is the best time for calm debate. The right to bear arms is a cherished part of American idealism.


However the fact is that it is not working out very well for a lot of people - given the present make up of the population.

I don't want to be involved in taking cheap shots at another man's ideals of freedom. However when all this is off the headlines - please reconsider some of the cheap shots you've taken at my position on this thread. I'm not Hitler.

Gun control is worth thinking about - rather than sloganeering.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:54 PM

Ok, Rapaire...I realize we do not know the history of this man yet....but he was young, and I 'suspect' he has no previous record of violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Gun Crime
From: Slag
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:55 PM

Well, better this thread than the other re VT. The 2nd Amendment is not a slogan. It is the supreme law of the land. And I DO agree with you to some extent. There should be reasonable laws. I don't think anyone needs hand grenades or machine guns, mortars or land mines! We should all, however, have the means to meet threats to life, limb and property. Law doesn't get any more basic than that. Every living creatures follows that law or becomes extinct. You meet the threat at hand or you die as so many of these unarmed students and workers did. God help us, this is the world we live in.