'Occupy English Folk Music!'

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: John P
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 12:36 PM

it's the fires of traddy damnation for me now is it?

Why do people keep saying this? Who does this damning? Or are you saying that being told that there's a difference between traditional folk music and contemporary folk music make you feel like you're being put down in some way? Has anyone ever actually said you shouldn't put on whatever music you want to if you're doing the organizing?

You support both traditional folk music and modern folk music and, I presume, everything in between. Good for you! We all owe you our respect and thanks. Inclusion is always better than exclusion. Where do the fires of traddy damnation come into it?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 12:44 PM

bonny george campbell is a song i used to sing , i stopped singing it to me it is a fragment, a pleasant tune, but storywise not in the same league as tam linn or willy of the winesbury or matty groves or reynard the fox.
I put in the same trash bin as lord randall, although it does have a better tune. john charles singing is pleasant enough, but to me the whole point of ballads is the story, when you have f### all story as in george campbell, its pretty difficult to interpret.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 12:50 PM

furthermore, i dont rate nimrod workmans version of lord bateman,,it is sung by a singer who is over the hill, and has no idea[imo] about interpretation, a version i prefer was the one done by Pete Castle, but that is just my opinion.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 12:57 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5FZt0kV9zk&feature=share

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 01:04 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8ZFVD7qkRU, this is in my opinion the way to sing a ballad, peggy seeger singing the golden ball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8ZFVD7qkRU

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 01:06 PM

It is a lament ( a story of loss), and for me its brevity enhances the sense of loss.
Each to his own I think.
john
p.s. I enjoyed listening to you play my guitar at Kiveton park.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 01:11 PM

"Dear Mr Carroll,"
You can call me Jim - even my enemies do.
"Nevertheless for you lot to have a Calton Weaver or a Wild Rover to sing about, "
You're assuming (wrongly) that that is what the Irish traditional repertoire is about
Best of three worlds here; Irish language, Native Irish in English; Anglo (and Scots) Irish.
There have been more Child ballads (50+) recorded from source singers in Ireland in the last thirty years than in the rest of these islands including several that have been missing from the repertoire for centuries (Maid and the Palmer, Tam Linn, Prince Robert, Lord Gregory, Suffolk Miracle, Green Wedding, William and Margaret, Lamkin, Johnny Scott) - many from Travellers. Most popular round here is probably Lord Lovell, closely followed by The Suffolk Miracle. The only field recording of The Demon Lover was recorded in Roscommon in 1983.
Don't judge the repertoire by The Dubliners and The Clancy Brothers - that's what they feed to tourists (because that's what they expect).
And the singing standard..... magic!
Dick
"it is a fragment"
It is a fragment - don't think it's ever been collected as a full version.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 01:21 PM

yes, john, I appreciated you lending me the guitar,and i enjoyed your spot, and you sing bonny george campbell well.
your points about george campbell are valid enough, and you are spot on about each to his own, the main problem is the medium of the internet which can give false nuances to a persons post, as there is a lack of body language.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 01:30 PM

"Why do people keep saying this? Who does this damning? Or are you saying that being told that there's a difference between traditional folk music and contemporary folk music make you feel like you're being put down in some way? Has anyone ever actually said you shouldn't put on whatever music you want to if you're doing the organizing?"

John P...... I suggest you read Jim Carroll's posts.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 01:48 PM

In fact if the seven Yellow Gypsies turned up outside that castle, I bet they'd still want to hang them all.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 02:15 PM

in fact i would give you odds of 4 to 9 on, that they would., but whats new?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 02:41 PM

"John P...... I suggest you read Jim Carroll's posts. "
And I suggest you do as well - and challenge what you don't agree with rather than sniping from a distance.
I don't "damn" anything - I contradict if I believe it to be wrong and would hope that's what anybody does
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 02:41 PM

Oh Paul, you are a bad boy, mixing up the traditionalists and those new fangled singer songwriters.

Hope you have a fantastic weekend, I'm sure you will, and the KFFC continues to go from strength to strength.

There was some talk earlier in this thread that a new definition of 'folk music' was needed. Firstly, I'd question whether a definition is actually needed at all, but if I'm ever pushed, I simply define Folk as 'the music of the people'

However, if people are going to create a new definition, then they should remember that the persons unkown who wrote the likes of Lucy Wan and Lovely Joan, presumably created the songs to sing them and where therefore singer songwriters, and although their songs would have been delivered very differenty to today, the principal is exactly the same.

John

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:07 PM

"It really is time to exctracted your collective heads out of your arses and take a look at the damage you've done to traditional music with your crass claims and your crap standards- it's the end result that counts. "

.....and you dare accuse me of sniping from a distance Jim Carroll!! (to be fair I guess that wasn't sniping, it was a full broadside).


"The more of the many diverse and important aspects of folk music that attract attention, the better its chances of survival, and those who argue that all you have to do is sing, need to take a hard, long look around and count up just how many new and young faces are appearing at the geriatric-filled clubs."

um, actually Jim, ours isn't full of geriatrics. But then you've never been to ours have you...... and I doubt many other of the newer clubs either.

But why let the facts get in the way of a good theory?

Trad song is in good health here...... it just has to rub shoulders with other folky forms. It doesn't seem to mind though.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: John P
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:32 PM

Certainly it is true that any traditional song was originally written by someone. The question is, what happened next?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:40 PM

the songs were altered by people over a number of years, however a good song does not have to become good through the folk process it can be good to start with.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:45 PM

an example of a song being improved is 3 score and ten, of course it doesnt follow that all alterations are improvements

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 04:41 PM

I'm happy to argue the case for what I believe to be folk music - I don't snipe, I state what I believe to be fact based on fifty years of listening - thirty of those talking to source singers - all on record and accessible to anybody who wishes to hear what they had to say.
I watched many/most of the folk clubs empty and then disappear completely; I stopped going when "folk music" ceased to have any meaning - when many of the clubs ripped the labels of the tin; thousands like me did the same.
I'm in a situation now where I can listen to jazz, the classics, blues... whatever kind of music I wish whenever I choose because nobody is trying to sell me something else as a substitute - it is no coincidence that this is why traditional music is flourishing in Ireland - and why I believe it is not in England.
It hasn't stopped anybody else from listening to what they wish to listen to, it means we know where we stand.
Ireland is now guarranteed a traditional music that will last for at least another two generations with youngsters hammering on the door to come in.
If anybody can tell me that this is the situation in the UK, then I apologise to all and withdraw all my criticisms - but that is not the picture I get.
I don't condemn the music or tastes of others - that would be subjective and arrogant. Nobody I've ever met involved in traditional music has ever told people what they should be listening to in my experience - but there a hell of a people who obviously don't like traditional music doing exactly that on threads like this, and it's people like them who squeal "folk police" the loudest whenever an opinion that contradicts their own is put forward.
As far as definition is concerned, John P put it in a nutshell "The question is, what happened next?" - that's probably as concise a definition as you will ever get.
There is a pretty clear, well researched and extensively documented definition of folk music, and, as I said before, unless somebody comes up with an alternative, that's that one which will survive.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 06:45 PM

Jim: I have lived in 3 of the largest cities in Britain (Liverpool, Manchester and London) and know the problems of presenting folk music in an urban setting, but please don't make it an excuse for compromising our traditional music out of existance.

Well in one of those big cities - Manchester - I don't think our 'mainly but not exclusively' traditional singaround is compromising our traditional music out of existence. It's a rather good night. I also think nights like Folk Threads - where the organisers chose a theme and traditional songs rub shoulders with new songs that fit the theme - is doing that either. Nor is the steady stream of traditional music coming out of Swinton Folk Club over the border in Salford. Nor even are the traditional songs that poke their head up between the singer songwriter fayre at Chorlton Folk Club. And there are plenty more examples. I think its A GOOD THING that traditional songs are sung in places that other stuff is sung. It might even bring them to new audiences.

Enjoyed you Bonnie George Campbell, by the way, John. Thanks for posting the link. Elle Osborne also does a lovely version on her album I put out earlier this year. Here she is tackling one of those long ballads: Fair Annie

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 07:03 PM

yes spleen cringe Elle osborne has a very innovative approach
john

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: John P
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 07:24 PM

a good song does not have to become good through the folk process it can be good to start with

Yes, of course. I've never heard anyone say otherwise. Great songs abound. The question isn't whether or not something is good, but whether or not we should call it traditional folk music. That's been said at least a dozen times already just on this thread and yet comments like these keep coming up. Why? I haven't seen anyone who likes traditional music making any quality judgments about anyone else's preferred music, or claiming that traditional music is inherently better than any other kind of music. All that's being said is that it's different. And that it should be allowed to have it's own place if someone is willing to go to the work of providing such a place.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 09:01 PM

you do no good to your case by lying.

I'm not lying, Jim; all I have to go on are your revelatory accounts of the Folk Utopia in Ireland as oppose to the bastardised do-as-you-will free-for-all we have to suffer over here on the mainland. Never been to Ireland, have no intention of going; I don't think my ears could cope with purity of folk you have on offer there. Can we mere mortals taste Ambrosia? (and no smart comments about Tapioca Pudding at the back there!).

was not one for "Goddess" like performances of traditional song

I didn't mean her performance, I meant the reverence in which she's held.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 11:38 PM

For Godsake GSS, this stuff is beneath our contempt. Folkmusic is about scruffy gits like us, never really accepted by the folkocracy.
Damn all to do with people in a castle invoking the names of Michael Coleman and John Reilly. Neither of whom could have afforded a ticket to these places.

For gawdsake come home ET. Banjiman is right. Ireland isn't ready for the twist, never mind the folk revival.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 12:18 AM

Back in the 50's there was a lot of discussion about "folk music for people who don't like folk music.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 04:51 AM

"I'm not lying, Jim"
You are deliberately distorting the relationship between Irish music and the Arts Council.
"The state-funded folk-show in Ireland"
After a long, hard slog The Arts establishment has finally recognised the social, cultural and historical importance of traditional music and, certainly up to the current economic downturn, is funding its progress totally and unconditionally without interference.
You're sneery summing-up of their involvement leaves me (and has in the past) with the impression that you are suggesting that it is they who is calling the tune - it is not - Irish music is being fundeed for what it is - an important piece of cultural heritage; this includes both in performance and research.
We have just learned that they have given another extremely generous grant towards the publication of a collecction of essays on folk song, and the only condition - that they are acknowledged in the publication for having done so.
"Goddess" like performances"
What struck me last month about Peggy's performance was an audience, most of whom would never have seen her live before, actually enjoyed what she did. Somebody we spoke to actually told us that, thanks to her reputation, she hadn't expected to and only came along because "there was nothing worth watching on tele" - she asked us where she could get a copy of one of the ballads.
MacColl and Seeger made an enormous contribution to British and American folk song and were respected for having done so, even by people who didn't like them very much. Your loaded language reduces their contribution to that of 'personality', a commonplace in today's revival.
It seems to me that you go through life belittling the work of others - maybe to disguise the fact that your own offerings are as meagre as they are (see - we can all deal in nastyisms when we put our minds to it)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 05:09 AM

'we can all deal in nastyisms when we put our minds to it'

Yes indeed Jim, a remarkable talent for abuse. If you were still in England, you could apply for a grant to develop and nurture it. Perhaps The Tate would put on an exhibtion.

I can see the posters now......

"Nastyism in the 21st Century: a retrospective"

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 05:30 AM

"It seems to me that you go through life belittling the work of others"

Jim, why am I thinking of pots and kettles?

You continually belittle the "work" of folk club organisers in the UK...... and I've rarely seen you have a good word for any performer who wasn't in your gang or a source singer!


We also had Peggy Seeger on at a village hall (not ours) not far from here but bang smack in the middle of the Dales about 18 months ago. Absolutely packed out it was (about 130 people) including a fair proportion of "locals" who had never seen her before. I thought she was pretty good (with banjo & guitar) until she felt the need to get the piano out..... kind of spoiled it for me.

She also appeared to do quite a lot of "written" songs.......... she seemed to think that was OK?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 06:00 AM

Driving through Tow Law last night (even picking up some Xmas-dinner style sarnies at the Co-op which we scoffed along the road at Kirkby Stephen) I was reminded of the legendary concert put on by Ewan MacColl and A.L.Lloyd to give the Durham Miners back their folk song heritage. It was at this concert, legend has it, that they first met Alan Lomax who was presumably on his travels seeking out pure Untainted Folk Source Singers - and there was MacColl & Lloyd corrupting the fossil record. I must add, this is part of the Myth, Legend and Folklore of the Folk Revival, but underlines the general agenda-ridden idiocy whereby our noble collectors are more intersted in specific song types tham they were in the actual nature of the cultures which they so keen on plundering, if they'd had what they were looking for: that elusive beast called Folk Song which was driven to extintion by the odious incursions of Radio, TV, and records of popular music.

Remember: The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.

Still, nice to know they were finding such pure-blood communities and source singers in Ireland as recently as 1981, no doubt entirely untainted by nigh on 100 years of Folk Revival and Folk awareness; and nice to know that the Purity of its Virginal Source Singers is still highly cherished, and that, no doubt, The Wee Folk themselves are tormenting Darby O'Gill with promises of yet more treasures to come (or whatever the hell that film was about; haven't seen it since I was 5).

The Arts establishment has finally recognised the social, cultural and historical importance of traditional music

Where there is money for it, there will be pure-folk on tap; as pure as you want it. Don't be surprised to find more hitherto untapped reserves of hitherto uncollected 100% Proof Pure Irish Folk Song sung by 100% Proof Pure Irish Source Singers turning up soon in the Limerety-Limerety Hill Hockles*, totally and unconditionally without interference of course. I hear in Ireland they are planning to created hermetically sealed reservations where 100% Traditional Communities will exist entirely innocent of any of the other aspects of 21st Centure culture and technology that has so corrupted other countries. These will exist a bit like The Trueman Show, with carefully selected government operatives working on The Inside ready to collect examples of Pure Folk Song as and when they occur, using up to date digital recording equipment disguised as wax-cylinder devices. The inmates will be allowed no TV, no radio, and subsist entirely on a meage diet of potatos; even Soda Bread is regarded as being Too Risky. No actual education will be allowed, and medical intervention is to be kept to a minimum, although more prized singers will get the help they need, but without exposing them to the corrupting influences they are likely to encounter in 21st Century hospitals. Despite humanitarian concerns, the Government feels that any ethical considerations will be more than adequately compensated for by the purity of the Traditional Folk Song that will result.

Your loaded language reduces their contribution to that of 'personality', a commonplace in today's revival.

So Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger weren't celebrity folk personalities in their day? It's a matter of scale of course, I don't remember either being on Parkinson, but in terms of the Revival Scene they were, and continue to be, revered in exactly the same way.

we can all deal in nastyisms when we put our minds to it

Seems to me its second-nature to you though, Jim - throwing your toys around because someone dares question the hallowed infallibility of Holy Scripture and the myths it has given rise too, much less the more intriguing Tales and Folklore, such as the Tow Law anecdote which is put part of a vast body of Ewanlore, but part of his carefully managed celebrity.

* For those who don't get the reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMm-WVt6RQA

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 06:06 AM

...... I know I'm helping to kill off folk clubs (by running one?), but we've got a dedicated ballad session (run by Mr Suibhne O'Piobaireachd himself) next weekend at The Kirkby Fleetham Micro-fest.

But, oh dear, we've got a songwriting competition as well....... it's the fires of traddy damnation for me now is it?

We've also got a mixture of acts..... some traddy, some who write their own songs. Actually most of the acts do both. I'm pretty sure most of the attendees will enjoy both as well.


Personally, rather than seeing anything wrong with any of that, I think that's how things should be, ie. each event to its own aims and others free to pick the events (whether "traddy", "songwriter" or both) that suit them.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 12:51 PM

so who is booked at kirby fleetham?, any traditional singers such as bob lewis/jeff wesley, any revival singers of traditional material which song writers? please let us know .

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 01:05 PM

kirby fleetham folk

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 01:06 PM

The Young'uns, Walsh & Pound, Zoox, Hissyfit, Rapunzel & Sedayne, Over The Yardarm, Hamish Currie, Mic & Susie Darling + more.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Banjiman
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 01:15 PM

We've also had Martin Carthy, Chris Wood & Phil Beer this year..... and next year (so far) we've got Katriona Gilmore & Jamie Roberts. Sarah McQuaid, Flossie Malavialle & Wendy Arrowsmith (on stage together) and Mawkin booked.

The microfest next November will be themed on distinctive regional songs/ music from from the British Isles.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 03:21 PM

"Seems to me its second-nature to you though, Jim"
I accept that as a compliment from someone who spends a great deal of time sneering at the work of others, yet goes into a mammoth sulk when it is suggested that he isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread
Get over it Sean.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 04:11 PM

goes into a mammoth sulk

What mammoth sulk? I'm taking this is good humour, and trying to get it away from the personal level you persist in dragging it down to.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: glueman
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 04:37 PM

Never let anyone say 'what vituperative intolerance?' about the subject of folk music. It's written through like Blackpool rock.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,The Shiznitz
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 05:45 PM

...and now for some folk music from Shiznitz

Hull's second foremost exponent of Stray Dance.

"Better than an empty Stage" - Leeds Irish Festival

"This band are literally the Shiznitz!" - Zoo and Logical Times

"That was the Shiznitz" - Alan Raw (BBC Humberside)

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 06:55 PM

How did they know when the mammoth was sulking.....?

It wouldn't take trunk calls from anyone.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: John P
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 07:29 PM

Yeah, but it was the rhino on the horn . . .

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: ripov
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 10:29 PM

re references to rock music and guitars:-
I quote (to save anyone struggling to find it)-

www.earlyromanticguitar.com/erg/evolution.htm

"Tyler and Sparks point out that in Spain, in the 1700's, there were 2 styles of guitar playing: "noisy music" which consisted of much strumming by the commoners, and "court music" which consisted of refined compositions for the aristocracy. The term "musica ruidosa" was used by Gaspar Sanz in his method book of 1674. Perhaps this is the root of the "classical" versus "flamenco" guitar styles in Spain, as well as today's split between popular steel string and electric guitars, and the "classical" guitar."

England (the South at least) was as much european then as it is now, so it is reasonable to assume that at the time of its' writing (or whatever other means of production and dissemination existed, as writing down takes a product outside the "folk" definition), alongside what some now call "folk music", there was a strong popular "rock and roll" culture. Or possibly the two are the same?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 02:17 AM

"What mammoth sulk? I'm taking this is good humour, and trying to get it away from the personal level you persist in dragging it down to. "
I criticised your ballad singing - you threw a hissy-fit - nothing personal about that, just a comment on the way you sand ballads.
You typify a revival that has wrapped itself in cotton-wool in order to protect itself from any sort of discussion of performance other than sycophantic praise.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: glueman
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 02:44 AM

Sand ballads? A Wilson, Keppel and Betty thread? Now That's What I Call Folk Music!

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 04:43 AM

You typify a revival that has wrapped itself in cotton-wool in order to protect itself from any sort of discussion of performance other than sycophantic praise.

Not on this thread though, Jim - that was somewhere else. And I hardly threw a hissyfit, rather speculated how you arrived at the rather absolutist conclusion that anyone could be a 'crap ballad singer' when it really takes all sorts, much less that they were a 'prat' when they pointed this out. And where's all this sycophantic praise you keep harping on about?

Over here on the British mainland, a ballad singer is simply someone whose love of ballads is enough to inspire them to sing them themselves. Unlike the situation in Ireland, there is no government funded elite 100% guaranteed source singers to ensure the purity of The Living Tradition - just a bunch of disparate folkie souls with a love of anachronistic soap opera, be it casual or obsessive. I might not be entirely right in thinking most folkies have a notion of singing, but of the many that do, a good few of them are sure to have a ballad or two up their sleeves. As with the other singing you'll hear in any mainland session or singaround, the approach to the singing of ballads will be determined by the singer rather than some hidden mystery tradition known only to an elite few. As with Source Singers, Revival Singers are free to do them exactly how they like. For sure I might dispute the usual myths (ballad singing is storytelling etc. etc.) and be suspicious of any Emergent Orthodoxy and other School of Correctness, but I respect their right to do it and I'd never call anyone's singing 'crap' much less call them a 'prat' for doing do. That isn't criticism, Jim - we know what it is, and you do yourself a disservice by even thinking such things, much less saying them on open forum.

If your precious tradition needs protecting from 'other voices' than the 100% Official Government Approved ones from the Truckly Howl Ministry of Folk, then I really want nothing to do with it - but, happily, I know that's bullshit. I know that there are no more Traditional Singers; I know the Tradition died the dead years ago and I know that any singer born in the last 70 years is Revival rather than Traditional. Revival isn't keeping anything alive, rather it is singing old songs along the new for the pure Joy of it. Oddly enough, the fossil record tells us that The Tradition wasn't too much different, and that once we get the inevitable pagiarism out of the way (the Carthy and Steeleye wannabes, but even they're more than welcome in my book) there is room for a lot of different approaches. I get this from the Old Singers, by the way; a life-time of listening, singing, exploring and, in two cases, being lucky enough to work alongside the Old Singers and know them personally. But if anyone lays claim to being such a singer now, and demands special consideration on account of their 100% Pure-Blood Authenticity, I'll be suspicious to say the least...

So there's my hissy-fit, Jim. Do what you wilt and encourage others to likewise; do unto others as you would have them do unto you. As in life, then so in ballad singing.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 04:43 AM

if you do it for a living Jim, you take praise anywhere you can find it sycophantic or otherwise. Like the character in Dickens - you have 'know your own worth'. And you're grateful for any praise -without necessarily believing the assessment. theres plenty of self appointed experts with penetrating analysis, with proof positive and abusive harrangues testifying that you're an asshole.

The question is , do you let these 'experts' deflect you from the course you have chosen. No you bloody don't - though they do manage to damage and hurt and discourage many of your fellow artists. young Sanjay Brain (18 years old) tells me he has become the target of much resentful criticism at his college, since being selected for the semi finals of the young BBC folk musician of the year.

No one ever bothered kicking a dead dog. Don't kill the creative urge particularly in the young - its just too easy to find a justification for it.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: glueman
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 05:20 AM

"Don't kill the creative urge particularly in the young"

Amen to that.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 05:50 AM

It might be interesting to zoom out of the current perspective and consider the whole business of traditional music over a much longer timescale - just to get a different slant.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the keepers of the flame of traditional music in Ireland are currently singing and playing folk music that's now between 100 to 200 years old. (This isn't supposed to be exact, just an arbitrary bracketing to point up the discussion). Now fast forward to 2060 - let's assume the same tradition is being preserved - and the same music is now between 150 to 250 years old. Fast forward again another 50 years - and the same music is now between 200 to 250 years old.

So here we are in Ireland, in 2111. Where is the Irish music of 2011 in all that? Is there any? What 100-year old songs will be played then? What 100 year-old tunes will be played? How will they have got into the tradition? Or will only the stuff which is being performed now be the stuff that's being performed 100 years hence? If the latter is the case, then that whole music will be a permanently ageing museum piece, unchanging, mummified.

If it's not the latter - if the young Irish musician and singers of 2111 are playing and singing folk music of a 100 years ago - where's it coming from? What are the rules or formulae or recipes or conventions by which it's all kept alive and bubbling? And not just in Ireland, in any other country? I've never yet heard the answer to this question in any of the "what is folk" threads.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 05:53 AM

"if you do it for a living Jim"
Whether you do it for a living or not, if you are stupid or arrogant enough to dismiss any adverse comments out-of-hand (especially if you are as damning without qualificatation of the work of others as Sean is), you become recognised as the arrogant prima don or danna that you are.
"there is no government funded elite 100% guaranteed source singers to ensure the purity of The Living Tradition "
You really are a mean- mindedly vicious and resentful pratt - grants are handed out at all levels of involvement and to all kinds of music from traditional to singer-songwriter, for both research and performance - you present a proposal and it is accepted on its merits and its viability; certainly not where you figure in any imagined musical heirarchy.
One of the greatest effects of opening the art council facilities to all has been a massive influx of young newbies who have been assisted, (sometimes just by providing musical instruments to those who can't afford them) to get more deeply involved in the music. Many of the youngsters who were give this start are now taking classes and helping to proliferate the music.
A major aspect has been to assist unknowns to produce their own albums.
Your definition of "elite" appears do be somebody who gets out of their armchair and actually does something other than pontificating.
I know I'm wasting my time again - but do you have any evidence of your "Government funded elite"?
"Don't kill the creative urge particularly in the young"
Your answer lies above Al - it is those that resent the talent of others when it overshadows theirs that kill enthusiasm - you have your example in Sean's spitefulness.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 06:44 AM

(especially if you are as damning without qualificatation of the work of others as Sean is)

Any criticism is a highly qualified suspicion of the assumptions, methodology, mythology and political implications of The Folk Revival as a socio-cultural phenomenon; I critise the credos, the holy cows, the agendas, the religiosity, and the psuedo-science and post-modern absolutism on which they are predicated. To me this like a UK citizen criticising the workings of the govermenent, or the ineptness of local council re-cycling schemes (and the myths that underwrite them), and the various episodes of our nation's history both with respect of its domestic and forgeign policies.

As a Citizen of the People's Republic of Folktopia I reserve the right to be similarly critical; but above all else, I love my country for all the reasons I've gone into on these last couple of threads, and I will stand shoulder to shoulder with my comrades in loyal solitarity to the cause, come what may.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 06:51 AM

I assume we are not going to be given any evidence of your "Government funded elite" and cn write it of as another example of yor resentful bile
Stop acting like a spoilt child
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 07:40 AM

Jim - its as well to write bile off as best we can, wherever it comes from.

We have all come to our positions on folk music by dint of getting off our arses and doing it (at least everyone in this conversation).

perhaps a bit of mutual respect for the others point of view needs to come into the equation.

Personally I find folk music a confusing subject. I am a recent immigrant into the West Country. Last night i went to the first concert I had ever been to of The Wurzels with a Young band the Skimmity Hitchers as a support at Bridport Electric Palace.

I've never heard music like that before. All traditional songs with a updated West Country lyrics. We didn't last very long as Denise is disabled and there was a very energetic mos pit and she couldn't see anything. I tend to leave concerts where disabled people are excluded or not thought of.

There are lots of diverse approaches to folk music. There were people there last night of all ages, and they obviously saw The Wurzels as the voice of their community. Music to dance and drink to. And the audience seemed to know all their songs.

There is diversity in folk music and we should try to respect each others efforts.