BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:24 AM

Ah Ron, can you only ever debate any point by putting words into other peoples mouths and taking them to task over them?

Let's see what was it you eventually managed to come up with:

1) "You conveniently ignore the fact that the UK contingent in the "Coalition" in Iraq is already down from its peak." - Now of what relevance is that Ron? In the past on Iraq threads I have drawn attention to the rapid drawdown of UK troops when the leftist anti-Bush brigade were howling about US & UK establishing permanent military bases in Iraq. UK involvement peaked at 43,000 troops in the South of Iraq in March 2003 within six months that number was down to around half that, in a year it was down to 15,000, steadily reduced since then it now stands at about 4,000.

2) "For some reason the UK doesn't believe that it's worth putting yet more troops in Iraq to support the "surge". Now I wonder why that is." Could it possibly be because the situation facing the MNF troops in the Southern part of Iraq is totally different to the situation faced by the MNF troops in the Central parts of Iraq which is totally different from the situation faced by the MNF troops in the Northern part of Iraq? Please note Ron out of the eighteen Governates that comprise Iraq the "surge" only applied to about four including Baghdad. There was absolutely no requirement for a "surge" in the South or North of Iraq - could that possibly be the reason?

3) "You tell us that if we pull our combat troops out of "rump Iraq" we are in grave danger of consigning Iraq to domination by Iran." - Did I Ron? Don't think so, I did however say perfectly clearly that should the US quit Iraq prematurely in any way that could be taken as being the result of actions by the insurgents, militias or more importantly Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq then that would have extremely serious consequences not only in Iraq itself but for the middle-east region as a whole and throughout the world in general. You on the other hand seem to deny that would be the case and insist that the problems would only be local - in believing that you are deluding yourself.

4) "You also tell us how popular the US is in Iraq." - Really Ron? Where have I ever told you how popular the US is in Iraq?

5) "US pressure for permanent bases in Iraq." - Leftist, anti-war, anti-Bush myth that is rapidly approaching it's sell by date. Your eagerly awaited President-of-choice-to-be Barak Obama has I believe rather unclearly said that he would not seek to establish permanent military bases in Iraq. Which is a pity because if the Iraqis living around any projected sites for those bases had a word with their counterparts in Germany, they would find out that it would be like living on top of a gold mine.

So Ron please tell me:

A) Where exactly did I say that, "we should keep US combat troops in Iraq because "anything is possible"?

B) Where exactly did I say that if we pull our combat troops out of "rump Iraq" we are in grave danger of consigning Iraq to domination by Iran?

C) Where exactly did I tell you, or anybody else, how popular the US is in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:40 PM

teribus,

A) Why should the U.S. remain in Iraq?

B) Why not let Iraq choose their own allies?

C) Why is the U.S. so unpopular in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:25 PM

Good question, d...

Why are we still in Iraq???

Just yesterday Maliki said that the Iraqi governemnt has no interest in meeting US demands that private contractors cannot be held liable for killing or maiming Iraqis...

And al-Sadr said the ceasefire is off...

(Hmmmmmm, Bobert??? I thought the reason that casualties were down was because of "The Surge"... Ain't that right???)

No, the reason that causulties are down is because the US taxpayers are having their tax dollars diverted to pay off people who want to kill US... You know, protection money...

This is the reality that the Teribuses and the beardedbruces of the world cannot get into their little barinwashed heads...

But back to d's excellent question... Why are we in Iraq???

Can I get a one paragrah answer that ordinary people can understand or not...

(You know the answer to that question, Boberdz... Of course you won't get a concise one paragraph answer... What you will get ie reams and reams of pure unalterated bullshit... Nothing more and nothing less...)

Normal...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 02:34 PM

"...if the Iraqis living around any projected sites for those bases had a word with their counterparts in Germany, they would find out that it would be like living on top of a gold mine." - teribus

I'm sure the Iraqis are quite capable of communicating with their "counterparts in Germany". How arrogant and out of touch you are. What makes you think Iraq and Germany can be compared? Apples and Oranges cannot be compared. You are so entrenched in the military that your livelihood and the well-being of your own family is dependent on war. What a pity.

Its really sad the way you talk in circles to justify your own existence at the expense of so many others.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

Bases provide fairly secure employment opportunities Dianavan - Something that is in much demand in Iraq at present, No?

The rest of your post made absolutely no sense at all.

The only member of my family who has got any connection with the military at all is my youngest son, so neither myself or any other member of the family is entrenched in a thing dependent on war, or anything to do with the military.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, if you had a brain you'd be dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 09:00 PM

'...secure employment opportunities, Dianavan..."

This is the friggin' point I have made over and over... With the American working class going backwards why is it our job to be creating "secure [friggin'} employment opportunities" to Iraqis??? Like I have said, "The Surge" has been nothing but US giving my tax dollars to Iraqis not to shoot at US...

Is that your final answer, T??? 'Cause if it is it is the most stupid excuse yet for being in Iraq that you have offerd over the last 6 years of offering up stupid reason for US to be in Iraq...

I mean... ssssssttttttttuuuuuuuuupppppppppiiiiiiiiidddddddddddd!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:12 AM

Bobert, Just recently in Kandahar the Afghan Police, Army and the SBS found 273 tons of Hash which they had to set fire to to destroy it. From your last post you must obviously have been standing down wind of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 09:30 PM

Ahhhh, exactly what would make sane adults destroy hash... Okay, I have destroyed a little in my day but I did it responsibly...

...one hit at a time...

Now back to the subject, T... Would you like to take a stab at the "Why are we in Iraq" question??? One, okay 2 paragraphs, por favor...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 01:34 AM

Why are "we" in Iraq? We are in Iraq at the request of the Government of Iraq and at the behest of the Security Council of the United Nations. Having effected regime change in Iraq it is the duty and responsibility of those who brought about that change to ensure that the nascent democracy established in Iraq to replace the regime of Saddam Hussein is given a chance to survive its birth pains.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 09:05 AM

Ahhhhh, what governemnt, T??? The bogus one that we set up thru rigged elections???

And let me see if I have this right??? The other reason for being there is because we broke it and must fix it before we leave??? Hey, Iraqi sects ain't been too good at getting along unless there has been a "bad man" in control... Are you suggesting that Sunnis and Shites will one day get along and live in harmony??? If so, I believe that you have been downwind of the hash burnin' 'cause that ain't gonna happen meaning...

...yeah, if that is our goal then that $3B a week sucking sound on the US Treasury will go on for the next 100 years and as a consequence the average American's standard of living will continue to rapidly decline...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 11:38 AM

"Ahhhhh, what governemnt, T??? The bogus one that we set up thru rigged elections???" - Bobert

Well Bobert likes talking about millions of Iraqi civilians, but somehow I don't think that he's going to like the following numbers.

The United States of America:
National voter turn out for US Federal Elections from 1960 to 2006 give the lowest turn out in 1986 and 1998 with only 36.4% of those eligible to vote turning out to do so. The highest was in 1960 with a turn out of 63.1%. Voter turn out in the USA for the 2004 Presidential Election, supposedly the most polarised and bitterly fought Presidential contest ever was only 56.69%. Hey Bobert you're goin' to love this

The Republic of Iraq:
Voter turn out for the 2005 elections to elect the first democratically elected Government of Iraq was 79.6% Bobert, some 12,396,631 Iraqi voters braved threats of death and violence to cast their votes. The UN plus the world and its dog were there all in the wishful expectation of pouring scorn on the result, just like you Bobert, but that is not how it played out Bobert was it? The UN representatives sent to oversee the conduct of the election stated that it met all internationally recognised standards. Now Bobert one minute you are broadcasting to all and sundry that the US is hated as infidel occupiers, and next you are telling us that those same hated intruders have managed to somehow persuade 79.6% of all the voters in Iraq to vote in a certain way - Yeah Right!!!

"Iraqi sects ain't been too good at getting along" - the Kurdish Shiia and Sunni's seem to rub along quite well together Bobert. Will the others come to find common ground - Yes I am optimistic enough to believe that they will, as soon as they assist their government in getting rid of the insurgents and criminals in their midst.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:28 PM

The percentages mean nothing if the slate of candidates is rigged, T...

But, yeah, I would have to agree that the American percentage is disappointing... Part of the problem is systematic in that we have only one day to vote... If we had a week to vote, or at the very least a Saturday and Sunday to vote the percentages would, IMO, increase dramatically... We also play games with registrations and voting processes and have even gone so far as to drop people from the roles for no other reason but they have names which are siomilar to others who might have feloniy convictions... Upwards of 57,000 such people were dropped from the roles just prior to the 2000 election in Florida...

I'm glad you are optimistic, T, about Iraq's future... You were also optimistic before Bush & Co. killed off upwards of a million Iraqis, thousands of American and destabilized the entire region???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 12:47 PM

"percentages mean nothing if the slate of candidates is rigged, T..."

You mean like in Iran? Faulty logic when applied to Iraq, given any candidates how do you force voters to vote for them?

Still peddling the Old John Hopkins lie then Bobert? Ah well give my regards to the Easter Bunny, Tooth fairy and Santa Claus.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 10:10 PM

Teribus-

Maybe we should have a lottery based on whether--if ever-you will admit what you've just said. You're almost as good as Bill Clinton--who denied 24 hours later what he had said about who played the "race card". Too bad he was on video saying it.

Case in point for you: 9 June 2008   10:13 "...anything--
(in this case an al-Qaeda takeover of Iraq)-- is possible in politics given the right timescale and circumstances". You did say it. Your words are still there.

I repeat: that is a singularly flimsy pretext to keep US troops in Iraq. We actually have better ways to spend money, amazing as that might seem to you. And the families of the troops would like them back home more often.

Interesting that you're now backing away from your earlier threat--supporting GWB and now McCain---that al-Qaeda can take over. Your reasoning--they're not in the business of governing. That's putting it mildly. They're in the business of firebrand sectarianism--which is alienating Sunnis every day, with al-Qaeda's thuggish enforcement of their perversion of Islam. That's why they are not supported by Sunnis in general--and never will be. And as I've pointed out--and you have not denied--even Sunni states like Saudi Arabia feel under threat by them.

Your apocalyptic--if somewhat nebulous--predictions of doom if the US combat troops are removed from "rump Iraq" are unfortunately not graced by logic or evidence.

There is no chance al-Qaeda can take over in Iraq. You have given no remotely plausible scenario as to how they could--ever. And no reason why US combat troops should sit there as potential targets in any terror attacks or Shiite-Sunni friction or, just as likely, Shiite-Shiite unrest.

And you are also wrong about the bases. It is not a leftist invention. WSJ: 17 June 2008: the Iraqi foreign minister says the one of the biggest points of contention is "how many bases the US would be allowed to maintain in Iraq longterm". And I have said there should be bases in "Kurdistan"--where the Kurds actually want us. Just not in "rump Iraq"--since "Kurdistan" will go its own way regardless of what the US and Maliki decide.

For somebody who complains about words being put in your mouth, you are both showing rather poor reading skills, and somewhat reluctant to admit what you actually say. Perhaps you'd like to try running for office--those are very useful skills, it seems--at least on the Bush "team".

But your entertainment value is still high. Congratulations.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 01:31 AM

Lot of words there Ron - very little substance - did you feel that you just had to say something?

As usual regarding your selection of quotes quote the whole sentence or paragraph to put what has been said in context.

With regard to, "...anything is possible in politics given the right timescale and circumstances" - Prove that it is not Ron. Oh and you never did stipulate over what timescale your question was tied to did you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:25 AM

Nice try, T, but I haven't defended Iran as some beacon of democracy... Might of fact, you seem to see democracy as the perfect system for everyone... It isn't if a country has not developed a "culture" of understanding how it works and for what each voter is responsible...

As for the Johns Hopkins' study, yeah, I'm sticking with it... Heck, it far more credible than all youre various debunked reasons why we are in Iraq... You know, aluminum tubes, uraniam cakes for Niger, Saddam was a bad man, WMDs, Iraq wants US there, etc, etc. etc...... Take about the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny??? Sheesh, T... You are a riot...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Bush Iraq Propaganda Campaign
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 09:41 PM

Teribus--

Interesting--you can find precisely zero evidence or even logic to contradict any of what I've just said.

Perhaps you don't like your own words quoted back to you. But there is an alternative----you could think before hitting "send".   Then perhaps you wouldn't have so many words to eat.