BS: Another question for Brits

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:37 PM

And you should have been there when we were trying to learn long multiplication or division based on L S D....Class take 3 pounds 6 shillings and tuppence and multiply by 8!

OK ... so 8 x tuppence is 16 pennies which of course is 1/- and 4 pennies so you carry the shilling over to the shillings column and hold the four pennies.

Then take 6 shillings x 8 == 48 shillings plus the one you carried which is 49 shillings and as there are 20 shillings in a pound, move 40 shillings into the pounds column, for two pounds and hold the remaining 9 shillings.

Then three pounds x 8 = 24 pounds plus the two you carried over

EQUALS......

26 pounds nine shillings and fourpence -- and NONE of it divisible by 10. You guys don't even begin to understand math anxiety!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:38 PM

now that we are this far, exactly what IS "posh"? Rich? Fancy? Snobbish? Elegant? All 4? None of the above?

(secretly hoping to get then at each other over regional differences in 'posh')

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:45 PM

I have heard it is based on Port Out Starboard Home which is the best place to be on a fat cat fancy ocean liner!!!! Posh is up market -- hope that clarifies everything.....!

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 09:51 PM

as in 'expensive'?

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Rowan
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 10:20 PM

exactly what IS "posh"? Rich? Fancy? Snobbish? Elegant? All 4? None of the above?
Posh is up market
as in 'expensive'?

"Yes" is the easiest answer to your second question and "All 4" to your first, Bill.

The apocryphal Port Out Starboard Home which is the best place to be on a fat cat fancy ocean liner! apparently derives from the ships of the East India Company between Britain and India but I suspect it to be in error.

From England to Rio, starboard cabins get the pm sun.
From Rio to India, port cabins get most of the sun, whether am or pm.
And vice versa on the return run.

But I'm certain the British 'catters will dig a lot deeper than I could in such matters.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:05 PM

No -- not just expensive -- upmarket is different to that......Brits, HELP.....you can be poor but upmarket.......it is to do with lineage (sorry!!!) rather than wealth......

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:29 PM

'Posh' has several meanings.

In the sense of smart, classy, 'swell,' etc., the OED says there is no evidence for it standing for 'port out,.....' This usage first appeared in Wodehouse, "Tales of St. Austin's," 1903. It appeared again in 1918 in Punch.
Chowdharay-Best discussed 'port out, ...' at length in "Mariner's Mirror," 1971, and dismissed this interpretation.

Posh means mushy ice to sailors (Davis, "Polaris Expedition," Melville, etc. 1876 ).
Posh to Galsworthy meant rubbish (1924).
Posh is a coin or money of small value (1830, slang, Sessions Papers, Old Bailey).
Posh was a term for smashed fruit, etc., or the sound of such-like smashing into a hard surface (English Dial. Dict., 1790).
Posh was slang for a Dandy (Fitzgerald, 1867).

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 02:46 AM

Posh = of good class.

Alas this will cause further puzzlement, for as far as I can see, in the USA and Australia class = wealth, which is not the case in the UK.

Class is the product of breeding, family background, education (public school, ie private boarding school: prep school = private boarding school for the under-13), accent above all things (think Prince Charles, Brian Sewell, although Scottish accent is allowable if you can demonstrate aristocratic genesis), and all the things like knowing which cultery to use and which ornaments are valuable antiques and which are not (similar to "taste").

If your landed estates and your antique furniture have been handed down to you over many generations you are likely to be posh.

As Clarke, the old Tory grandee, once said of Michael Heseltine "He is the sort of chap who bought all his own furniture" - ie he was a parvenu.



Which is why "Posh Spice" was a total misnomer - she was jumped up middle class (indeed perhaps lower middle class) who happened to have a moderately rich father.

Similarly the "taste" element enabled courtiers to say with absolute truth of Sarah Ferguson that she was "Vulgar, vulgar, vulgar"

You can be of good class yet poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 03:33 AM

'Posh' an abbreviation of the French phrase 'poches profondes', meaning 'deep pockets'- a reference to wealth.

Well, actually, I just made that up. But it's as good as any other theory.

The practice of payment in notional guineas continues right to the end of the old coinage. A friend tells me that for her first job in an office in the mid 60s she was paid three guineas a week.

For a while after the introduction of the pound coin, they were sometimes referred to as 'maggies'- after Thatcher- they were brassy, hard, pretty worthless, and trying to pass themselves off as a sovereign.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 03:58 AM

'Posh' is also the Romanes (Non-Irish Travelling Folk) word for 'half'.

So someone born of one Romanes parent and one Gawjer parent is 'poshrat' - lit. half-blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Stu
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:09 AM

I lived for a while in a village in Northern England (when I was a teenager) that demonstrated the difference between the classes beautifully. Basically, four types of people lived in this affluent little patch:

- What I termed the 'old' money, people whose families had a few quid and had handed it down or been beneficiaries of. All well spoken, excellent manners and that unpracticed air of detachment that makes them unfathomable to the rest of us. The Amenities Society was made up of these people, and they were fighting a rearguard action against everyone else who were encroaching on their precious village. They ran the local Conservative Association (mostly these were 60 plus blue-rinsers al la Mrs. Thatch) and were often very nice, but vaguely disdainful of all newcomers (until a newcomer said something they disagreed with, when they would all tut loudly and look to the skies for deliverance with overt disdain).

- The second lot were working class come good. People who through their own endeavors had made a few bob and moved to the posh village down the road to take their rightful place alongside the wealthy and famous. Often found at the Cricket or Squash Club, or perhaps braying loudly in one of the villages two pubs. Their superiority complex knew no bounds and they were supremely confident in their place at the top of the food chain. Often headed up Church-affiliated organisations i.e. Youth clubs and always got in the local paper when they took turns to be lollipop man when the actual chap was on holiday.

- Thirdly, the aspirational middle classes - often upper middle or senior management who moved into the not-quite-so-big houses on estates (this was my dad). Badminton and Round Table members to a man (Ladies Circle for the wife), all had top-range saloons as part of the company package and organised discos and mediaeval banquets etc for charity (to the utter dismay of the old money types who were convinced there was no place for such things in the social calendar - I actually heard a group of them say this). Would dine in one of the expensive restaurants in the village on special occasions only.

- Finally, the people who lived in the token council estate and old-people's bungalows. These became the real winners when Thatcher started letting people buy their council houses and the lucky residents found themselves sitting on a bit of prime real estate in a sought after location. Found in the village club with snooker, doms and subsidised beer (a haven of sanity). Often mixed with the second lot as basically the only difference was the amount of bunce they had and the size of their cars.

Eventually the house prices got so inflated no young families could afford to move there and the decimation of the local social housing stock meant the village became a sort of haven for the very rich. Even as we speak wealthy premiership footballers with class pretensions (as Richard suggested, they confuse wealth with taste) are tearing down the fine old houses that the village is made up of and throwing up chav palaces of the most dubious architectural integrity - basically penis extensions in brick and stone cladding. Bling for boys with a wad.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:24 AM

So whats a quarter of six 5.45 or 6.15? Half six is just a lazy way of saying half past six.

In England I've never heard anyone say half to six - it always goes 5 past, 10 past, quarter past, twenty past, twenty five past, half past (or half six for example), twenty five to, twenty to, quarter to, ten to, five to,

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Newport Boy
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:24 AM

Guinea pieces were minted from 1663 till 1817, after the sovereign had been reintroduced in 1815. It continued to be used notionally for some kinds of prices throughout the 19th century and into the 20th - for example tailors or lawyers, or for watches.

The guinea (not the coin) was in common use through the 1960s. In the late 50s/early 60s, a favourite eating place in Leicester Square was "The Guinea and the Piggy" (dreadful pun) a help-yourself buffet. You ate as much as you could for 21 shillings.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,misty eyes
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:28 AM

Not forgetting, the two billing shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,Guest without cookie
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 04:43 AM

Nobody's mentioned the groat. i think it was 4 (old) pence

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 06:38 AM

and the noble was a third of a pound (80 pence or 6/8 - six shillings and 8 pence.) HuwG seems to have mixed up the noble and the groat in an earlier post.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 07:18 AM

Stigweard - I think I recognise that village! Is it Alderney Edge?

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Stu
Date: 12 Feb 08 - 01:16 PM

Close Richard, it's Prestbury - Alderley Edge has always been nicer in my opinion (partly because of the Edge itself) although when Beckham moved in it was put on the map and footballers started arriving. Then he moved out and Rooney knocked down a nice house in Prestbury village and threw up a modern mansion and the rest is history.

I haven't lived there for 18-odd years and I don't miss it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 07:59 AM

Anyone know about the value of the amounts mentioned in the lyric "Malt's gone down from an old angel to a French crown"?

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: danensis
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 11:43 AM

"In England I've never heard anyone say half to six - it always goes 5 past, 10 past, quarter past, twenty past, twenty five past, half past (or half six for example), twenty five to, twenty to, quarter to, ten to, five to "


In my bit of Yorkshire it was "five and twenty to", and "five and twenty past"

John

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: The Walrus
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 12:54 PM

danensis,

"...In my bit of Yorkshire it was "five and twenty to", and "five and twenty past"..."
I've also heard it as 'five and twenty up' and 'five and twenty down'.

W

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 01:07 PM

...3 pounds 6 shillings and tuppence and multiply by 8.

Did that in my head with no problems - much easier than similar tricks with decimals. Eight times £3.31 (the nearest I can get to £3 8s 2d) - well, I can do that, but I'd sooner have a pencil and paper to check up, because the columns tend to get muddled up in my head if I'm not careful.

Working out in your head whether you had enough change to buy a random collection of small purchases was actually much easier before decimalisation, believe it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 03:18 PM

..3 pounds 6 shillings and tuppence and multiply by 8.

Did that in my head with no problems - much easier than similar tricks with decimals. Eight times £3.31 (the nearest I can get to £3 6s 2d) - well, I can do that, but I'd sooner have a pencil and paper to check up, because the columns tend to get muddled up in my head if I'm not careful.

Working out in your head whether you had enough change to buy a random collection of small purchases was actually much easier before decimalisation, believe it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Darowyn
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 03:50 PM

We should have gone for a Hexadecimal coinage, like pounds and ounces in weight.
We'd need fewer denominations of coin, and the maths would all be binary.
Take the current value of a fiver as the basis,call it a megapound, you'd need a half fiver, a quarter fiver (about a pound) an eighth, (50p) a, sixteenth (25p), a thirty second (a bob) a sixty fourth (5p), and these days, that's about all, though traditionalists would probably need one more copper coin representing a 128th of the basic unit.
Eight coins, to cover everything from a penny to a five pound note.
So there'd be 128 pennies in the megapound.
For US catters, why do all US banknotes look the same?
In Europe they are all different colours (spelled with a 'u') or even different sizes.
Even natives of the USA have to read the numbers.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 05:30 PM

How do blind people manage in the States if the notes are all the same size?

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Bert
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 06:39 PM

Well now; those of us who are old enough to remember how it was done, did it like this.

We had a chart that converted shillings and pence to a decimal fraction of a pound. we multiplied or divided as needed and then looked up the chart to convert it back.

We did the same with non trivial calculations regarding Tons, cwts, qtrs, pounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 08:05 PM

And there were also octavo (and smaller) books of such tables, including ones for calculations of earnings for varying amounts of capital, periods and interest rates, whether simple or compound interest.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 08:05 PM

I never did it that way. After all in exams they'd never have allowed you to have a chart like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 09:51 PM

Nor me -- NO CHARTS OR CHEAT SHEETS.

I do agree that learning to do this without calculators was helpful....I used to be a 'Saturday girl' at WH Smiths in the days when cards were priced at some appalling amount like 1 shilling 10 pennies and one halfpenny --- when some one was buying 8 of those and 6 pencils at 5 pence (or whatever) -- you had to learn to do math. But I never had a chart -- instead we had customers who would gleefully point out if we added up wrong by half a penny -- in a shop with a line out the door!!!

The two shilling piece was a florin (don't know why)

A quarter of six is 5.45 -- but I have never heard an English person say anything like --- quarter of -- instead it would be quarter to; and not quarter after (but rather quarter past).

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Rowan
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 10:09 PM

The books of tables I remember weren't for the benefit of students; as McGrath and Trubrit mention, we had to learn the hard way. The books were for minor clerks and others in business before calculators were cheap or even electronic, in most cases. The only books of tables I had access to as a student were logarithms, sines, cosines etc.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 13 Feb 08 - 10:49 PM

God -- I do remember log tables -- you are giving me nightmares.........!

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:19 AM

Why is is socially acceptable to admit to being innumerate, but not to being illiterate?

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 02:26 AM

Perhaps because they don't quite equate? I am very had at math and could never do calculus or anything like that but I can do basic math and percentages and 'manage'....... I don't see that as quite the mathematical equivalent of illiteracy and all the huge conurtations it has.....

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 04:00 AM

Or even "connotations"?

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 04:53 AM

You never learned the easy way to do LSD? It was quite simple. Say you have three items, one and tenpence-ha'penny, two- and-eleven, and 5/9. Round up- two bob, 3 bob, 6 bob. That's eleven shillings. Now take off the odd bits, penny-ha'penny, penny and threepence. That's fivepence ha'penny, Knock that off the eleven bob, and you've got ten-and-sixpence-ha'penny.

Now calculate 5lb of carrots at eightpence ha'penny a pound, 18lb of potatoes at 1/9 a stone, 3 ounces of bacon at 2/7 a pound, and a quart of vinegar at 19/4 a gallon...

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 06:34 AM

Round up- two bob, 3 bob, 6 bob. That's eleven shillings. Now take off the odd bits

Even in these decimal days people don't seem to get that trick. Back in more affluent times I bought three CDs at a festival. They were two at £12.99 and one at £13.99. I watched in amazement as the chap wrote them in a column and went 9+9+9 is 27, write down the 7 and carry 2...

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Anne Lister
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 07:42 AM

I was a Saturday girl in Marks and Spencer, working on menswear where all the shirts were priced with the odd 11d.... 19/11d, 29/11d and the luxury range at 39/11d (and yes, that's how the tickets were written, although maths experts amongst you and Brits of a certain age will know that 39/11d is actually £1 19 11d). And I became quite quick, rounding up to the nearest 10s and removing the extra pennies. These days, what with decimal currency AND electronic tills, the sales staff don't know how lucky they are.
Oh, and I was kept on my toes, because my Dad was the manager of the store where I was working, and he would sneak up on me and suddenly say he'd have four of these and two of those so how much change would he get from a tenner ...

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 12:38 PM

Back in the 60's before the change to decimal in the UK, and WAY before computers, I used to run 2 bank sub branches. I had to enter every transaction on a huge piece of paper, then get it to balance with the cash in the till once I'd got the door closed at midday. This was very difficult at one branch as the whole village used to pay in their ill gotten gains - they were all selling stuff from catalogues to each other! It's the inbreeding you know.

If I hadn't balanced everything, I had to figure it all out on the bus going back to the main branch, as English kids of 19 didn't generally run cars in those days.

Working in a bank in those days didn't half improve your mental arithmetic - not to mention your muscles - the old coinage was much heavier than the decimal stuff. As I found when I dropped a gigantic cloth bag of old pennies on the bandit alarm trigger under the till....

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Newport Boy
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:22 PM

Bert - converting to decimal and back was the long-winded way, and we didn't have calculators, so it was also inaccurate.

The first calculator I used for serious calculations was a Facit hand cranked rotary machine, with three sets of numbers. Worked to 15 digits, and accurate to better than 12. I could work out the mean and standard deviation of a set of 24 results on that quicker than using log tables.

As a site engineer in the 60s, needing to calculate areas and volumes with dimensions in feet and inches, I simply used duodecimal multiplication, writing X and L for 10 and 11 decimal - so 10 was 12. It wasn't difficult - we all learnt multiplication tables up to 12 times.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 01:52 PM

All you folks commenting on the easy way to do the pound shillings and pence -- yes, I did do that rounding up and taking off but I still think it made for somewhat complex math compared to 100 pennies to the pound, 100 cents to the dollar.

Guess we need spell check on Mudcat -- connotations it is! Thanks for the correction, Richard

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 02:16 PM

Decimals are easier for electronic calculators to handle, and for people, if you have pen and paper. But if you are doing it in the head I think £SD is easier.

we all learnt multiplication tables up to 12 times. Don't kids still learn their tables?

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Anne Lister
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 04:37 PM

McGrath - not up to 12, generally, these days ... they stop at 10!

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 05:04 PM

To what whas Ian Dury referring when "But I got right up between her
Rum and her Ribena"? Is that rhyming slang perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 05:09 PM

Not as far as I know.

It's like

Mary had a little lamb
She also had a duck
She put them on the mantlepiece
To see if they would fall off.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Rowan
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 05:16 PM

And there was I learning them up to 15.

Richard's Why is is socially acceptable to admit to being innumerate, but not to being illiterate? has been a longstanding question for me.

Like other posters here I learned on Lsd, tons, cwt, lbs & ozs etc and used the various tricks above but that was in the days BC; before calculators. Newport Boy mentioned the hand operated Facit; I never even saw one of these until I got to uni and recently inherited one that (apparently) was a war trophy from an uncle. By the time I got to uni there were electric rotary Facits and we preferred them but my supervisor could make the hand cranked one work faster than the electric ones.

The onset of cheap electronic calculators (my first HP was a week's pay) has allowed the mental arithmetic muscles to remain flabbily unused and mathematical tables and slide rules are relegated to museum displays, so our constant use of them, driving observable patterns and links between numbers and concepts into our consciousness, doesn't occur with current students. When they work checkout shifts their employers require them to rely on the electronic displays so they don't get much in the way of reinforcement that we did. So much for inability with arithmetic!

Then there's the university mathematical establishment. There are brillliant exceptions, but I've lost count of those who regard mathematical ability to be "so far above the common herd" and wish to retain their status as "members of a special club restricted to only those with superior qualifications." These people behave as though any lowering of the drawbridge, by teaching well enough for intelligent students to grasp and develop mathemetical concepts, will decrease their own special status. Fortunately, "real" mathematicians are better than that.

And, while most of us write and thus take an actively participatory role in literature, even if the writing isn't much more complex than emails, not many of us take a similarly active and participatory role in mathematics beyond basic arithmetic. Even when maths concepts are on display all around us in our daily routines.

Rant over! I feel better now.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 05:52 PM

'class'does not usually mean wealthy in the United States.

In U. S. slang, a person who has 'class' is 'stand-out,' 'first-rate,', 'top notch,' distinguished, 'elegant,' has superior qualities that put them above the crowd.
"She's a class-act," "she is classy."
"She is classy" means she knows how to dress with style, has good taste, is a 'beaut,' etc.

It also means a subdivision or group, e. g., "he belongs to the class of 1960" (the year he graduated from school, etc.), "he is a Brahmin," e. g. a member of one of the old dominant families in politics, money, education, usu. 'back east' (the Cabots Lodges, etc.), "he/she belongs to the upper class," e.g., well- educated, or has wealth, or is well-mannered, reads literature (Milton perhaps but not "True Detective" or comic books and subscribes to the NY Times but not a tabloid), etc.
"He belongs to the lower classes," e. g., he is 'blue-collar,' a pool-hall lout, has an immigrant's characteristics (obsolete), has no importance, no education, etc., etc.
"He ain't got no class" (applied regardless of income status), e. g., lacks finesse, doesn't know how to behave in 'polite' society, etc.

Many shades of meaning depending on the speaker or situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Bert
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 06:16 PM

...slide rules are relegated to museum displays...

Oi! I still use my slide rule. It beats the hell out of a calculator for on-site estimates.

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Rowan
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 08:17 PM

Bert, where I work, the computer room used to teach students the arts of GIS has a slide rule on the wall mounted behind a sheet of perspex with a sign

"In case of emergency,
Break Glass"

But it's a long time since I taught anyone how to use one.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 09:29 PM

Its a BIT like doing Mental Arithmatic isnt it ?

Subject: RE: BS: Another question for Brits
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 09:30 PM

100 and THAT's Decimal