BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 09:11 AM

$100 million of cargo aboard a Saudi oil tanker is a whole lot of booty, enough to boggle the mind of any 18th century pirate captain, even after making allowances for inflation.

Now that the Somali pirates have learned to navigate, their rusty trawler mother ships can range free across the entire India Ocean. No commercial ship will be safe unless it too is armed.

How long will it be before the Somali envision more state of the art pirate cruisers? Why not commission hydrofoil cruiser cloaked with stealth technology, or a submarine? Come to think of it our naval shipyards in Maine are hurting for business. The Bath Iron Works just lost a major contract for a hydrofoil cruiser and the Kittery-Portsmouth Naval Shipyard is now only decommissioning or repairing nuclear submarines. We could use the work!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 02:34 PM

They have taken over more ships, but the Indian navy took out a big one of theirs (Whole article:


Indian navy destroys pirate ship after coming under fire


Somali bandits terrorising the busy shipping routes around the Horn of Africa suffered a rare setback when an Indian warship destroyed a pirate "mothership" after coming under fire in the Gulf of Aden.

The Indian navy said that its frigate, one of the numerous international warships dispatched to patrol the waters around the Horn of Africa, had approached a suspicious vessel yesterday evening. It turned out to be a previously captured ship being used by pirates as a base from which to launch their speedboats far out to sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 03:53 PM

John Gray, didn't the Allies in WWI build one of those LRADs? I remember reading about it, somewhere. Can't be too technical.
The pirates would, of course, buy something that they could hit back with. The obsolete 'Blowpipe' or another anti-tank weapon, at a guess.
The pirates don't seem to be very savage, trying NOT to kill people, trying to make a living in a mad country which has no security for anyone. Hardly the 'Dead Men Tell No Tales' type. Starting an arms race with them wouldn't help to keep that attitude going.

Like everyone, I can't think of a good answer to the problem. Especially as (I suppose) Foreign Aid has dried up.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:20 PM

Seems like the Somali piracy is just a symptom of a larger problem, but it's one nobody wants to take on.

Anyway, congratulations to the Indian Navy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 05:40 PM

Not many here using much imagination with regard to "piracy" and the threat it could potentially pose.

It is possible that from their antics and seemingly developing skill that the next "Terrorist Spectacular" could stem.

I can vouch for the fact that the actual vessel target type was identified by a "think tank" in the UK in the ealy 1970's. Although I agree with Frederick Forsyth that the ship is more likely to disappear in far eastern waters than those off the Horn of Africa, because you have better scope to hide it. If you want a hint read Forsyth's book "The Afghan", and hark back to what happened to a certain Merchant ship making it's way up channel shortly after 9/11, it may serve to indicate how seriously the threat is taken.

As to poor fishermen being "forced" into pursuing piracy as an occupation - that is laughable - they are the poorly paid thugs of tribal warlords - who most certainly are not sharing out the ransomes paid amongst those doing the work.

I think that there would be very few "western" fishing boats fishing those waters - Gulf of Aden too busy; transit would be through the Suez canal - Too expensive. The foreign trawlers in that part of the world would be Taiwanese; Korean; Japanese. And fishng international waters is not poaching and it most certainly is not any form of piracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 06:31 PM

Well, that's it, T...

I had you penciled in for a senior position on my pirate ship, too, but now I'm not sure I can trust you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 08 - 07:22 PM

Ahhhh, not to mention that if you have $100M worth of oil on yer tanker why not give Rap, oh, 'bout 50 or so grand and let him set up a couple machine gun nests on yer boat and blow the crap outta the pirates who are 100 feet below in small boats... It this were a military battle, you would love to have not only the high ground but a few bigass guns to go with it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,John Gray in Oz
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 04:55 AM

Okay Gurney - an arms race with pirates is not the way to go. So, how about this as the best, and cheapest, defence ;
Am I right in assuming the Somali pirates are Muslims ? If so, then spread pig fat on the ship's guard-rails. That should stop them in their tracks !

JG/FME

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: David C. Carter
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 05:21 AM

Bobert...why not give Keith Richards a call...he looks like a pirate!

They tell me he even plays guitar,and has been in a pirate movie!

Just add Jagger singing and prancing about and you got it made!

That should scare the living crap out of anyone!

I'd join meself,but my wooden leg is out of action....a victim of Dutch Elm desease!

David

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM

Why not announce phony cargo being shipped in Liberian tankers. I figure they have a pretty fair chance of sinking with the pirates aboard, or any other time for that matter.........Only a 2 dollar whore goes down faster than a Liberian tanker.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 09:20 AM

There was an interesting AP article (Mohamed Olad Hassan and Elizabeth Kennedy) today in the morning paper about the economic impact in the coastal villages in Northern Somalia from the pirate trade:

"Pirates are building sprawling stone houses, cruising in luxury cars, marrying beautiful women, even hiring caterers to prepare Western-style food for their hostages."

The three principal pirate ports of Harardhere, Eyl, and Bossaso. Shopowners are doing a booming business, there are new electrical generators, residents are now better fed, and children are happy.

The Indian Navy, the INS Tabar, did manage to attack and sink one mother ship, after stopping the suspicious trawler for inspection and then being fired upon; two associated speedboats disappeared in the darkness, one later was found abandoned.

I wonder why a convoy system is not being implemented.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:20 AM

The pirates started out as patrols fighting against foreign fishing boats in Somali waters. Then they moved on to other things...

http://community.oceana.org/blog/2008/10/somali-pirates-tell-their-side


European fishing boats have been overfishing in sovereign Newfoundland waters for decades, and are responsible for the collapse of the Newfoundland fisheries. They tried to do the same in sovereign Icelandic waters, but unlike the Canadian government, the Icelandic government took steps to stop it before their fisheries collapsed. JtS says that Spain, Portugal, and Russia were the worst offenders, and Spain is still doing it. He says they use bottom trawling methods that scoop up everything there, and that they sneak inside the 200 mile boundary for the Canadian sovereign waters.


"About five years ago, Somali fishers upset over foreign overfishing stoked the piracy problem in the Horn of Africa and began to seize trawlers and their crews and hold them for ransom. Civil war and anarchy had left their dismantled government unable to protect its fisheries."

http://fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?l=e&ndb=1&id=29105


"According to 'The Crisis of Marine Plunder in Africa' , a report published in November 2007 by the Institute of Security Studies (ISS), a South Africa-based think-tank, poaching and over-fishing off southern and eastern Africa has become so extreme that permanent damage to the marine environment appears imminent.

West Africa's fish stocks were exploited by European, Russian and Asian fishing fleets in the second half of the 20th century, but in recent years the industry set its sights on the shoals in the continent's southern and eastern waters."

http://wow.gm/africa/mozambique/maputo/article/2008/2/10/mozambique-commercial-overfishing-threatens-coastal-livilihoods


This is discussing Mosambique, but it shows that Western fishing boats are illegally fishing of the coast of eastern Africa...

"According to the FAO, the most recent figures show the current exploitation of demersal fish, shallow-water shrimp, line fish and deep-water lobster is extreme. A lack of marine management and an ever-increasing number of fishermen - both artisanal and commercial - is partly responsible, but experts also blame widespread illegal fishing by Western fishing fleets."

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/d663d8511a2ecdc9cf2010e0d300f8f8.htm


The people of Somalia were making progress in bringing order and civil infrastructure to that country in 2006, but those efforts were ended when the US sponsored the Ethiopian attack and occupation of Somalia...

"The dramatic increase in the number of pirate attacks this year is a consequence of the complete breakdown of law and order in Somalia. But for a brief respite in 2006, the country has ceased to be a functioning state since the death of President Siad Barre in 1995. For most part of 2006, the Islamic Courts Union (ICU), a coalition of Islamic jurists and civil society, managed to end the strife and throw out the warlords. However, the dreams of a lasting peace were shattered when the Ethiopian army, under instructions from Washington, invaded the country and ousted the government run by the Islamic Courts. The country once again plunged into a spiral of unremitting violence."

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2522/stories/20081107252205600.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 10:58 AM

They're kind of like an environmental organization on steroids. I hope they don't keep a nonprofit status.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:00 AM

I think the point is that we need to look at all of the causes of what's going on and try to correct the ways in which we and the rest of the West are contributing and making them worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:20 AM

or they could redirect their efforts towards good government and public interest. become community organizers or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:50 AM

Carol-

Interesting articles.

They certainly help explain why Somali fishermen got motivated to take such extreme measures to rebuild their damaged economy. Doesn't make their actions right (nor the actions of foreign fishing fleets off their coast) but there might be a basis for a negotiated settlement.

I wonder if the "pirates" could be recruited and re-trained as a Coastguard force, paid for by major nations that would like to navigate the Gulf of Aden without harassment.

Or maybe it's too late for such a sane solution.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: pdq
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 01:00 PM

"Somali fishers upset over foreign overfishing stoked the piracy problem in the Horn of Africa..."

...poaching and over-fishing off southern and eastern Africa has become so extreme that permanent damage to the marine environment appears imminent."

Wow! Their not pirates. They're Environmental activists fighting the evil Western Civilization

I was going to give a check to the Nature Consevancy this Christmas season but I think the money would be best spent supporting the Somali aquatic freedom fighters.

Anyboydy got a mailing adress for 'em??

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:48 PM

You can address mail to pirates at:

Sirius Star
c/o Lloyds of London
1 Lime Street,
Gallery 12
London
EC3M7HA
United Kingdom

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 02:57 PM

They're not environmental activists. They're human beings who don't like starving to death. If people from other countries, through various means, deprive the local people of their means of livelihood, and if other people from foreign countries attack and occupy their country, destroying their efforts to bring their own country under some semblance of a government, don't be surprised if people resort to some pretty desperate measures in order to try to survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 03:09 PM

I know you are right, Carol, that if you have a malignant tumor, you treat it systemically. But you still excise the tumour if you can and throw it in the biological waste bin. Just my medical opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 06:39 PM

Jus' think of it as a "bailout" of the crappy Samolian economy....

I'm ready to join in...

Even have an eye patch...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Cats
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 09:52 PM

Bobert, can I join your pirate crew? I still have my pirate hook, tea shirt and inflatable parrot from the Anchor Middle Bar a couple of years back.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:02 PM

Personally, I don't understand why the ships that use that part of the ocean don't have security personnel on board with big guns. Seems to me that that would take care of the problem pretty effectively.

On the other hand, the Ethiopians whom the US has backed in their attack on and occupation of Somalia, have been doing some interesting stuff of their own. That ship that the Somalian pirates captured that had the tanks on it was an illegal shipment of tanks bound for Sudan...

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2522/stories/20081107252205600.htm

"Interestingly, the armaments on board the hijacked ship were illegally destined for the regional government in southern Sudan, which is under a United Nations-mandated arms embargo. According to reports, the Kenyan government was promised oil at concessionary rates once south Sudan seceded from the north. A referendum on the issue is to be held in 2011. Some members of the international community predict that the oil-rich south will opt for independence.

Meanwhile, the government of Kenya insists that the arms consignment was for its own use although it has not provided any documentary proof to substantiate the claim. The copy of MV Faina's manifest, which was published in the media, however, confirms that the arms were meant for the Government of Southern Sudan. Contract numbers for the tanks, rocket-propelled grenades and anti-aircraft guns contain the initials GOSS, a reference to the Government of Southern Sudan. American officials and the spokesman for the pirates have confirmed that the consignment was for southern Sudan.

The Kenyan government arrested the spokesman for the local chapter of the Seafarers Assistance Union, Andrew Mwangura, after he first broke the news that the tanks were headed for southern Sudan. Mwangura was charged with making "alarming statements" and being in illegal possession of marijuana. The Kenyan government has not revealed these arms purchases to the United Nations Register of Conventional Arms, UNROCA, as required.

The central government in Khartoum has reasons to be worried. Undocumented arms shipments through Kenyan ports, it suspects, could have reached separatist forces in Darfur and other parts of Sudan. There have been reports in the African media and in defence journals that southern Sudan has already received 100 T-72 and T-55 tanks of Russian origin through Kenyan auspices in recent months.

The Somali pirates, with their latest high-profile hijacking, have turned the spotlight on the arms trafficking in the volatile Horn of Africa region. The pirate groups are known to have a good intelligence network extending to the financial hubs of the region and beyond. The incident is all the more embarrassing for the Kenyan government as it helped broker the historic Sudanese North-South Peace Accord in 2005, which ended the long-running bloody civil war."


That makes it pretty difficult for the people who need to feel self-righteously indignant about what's happening in Sudan and at the same time feel self-righteously indignant about Somalia. The very Kenyans whom the US is supporting in their occupation of Somalia are arming people in Sudan who are under a United Nations-mandated arms embargo.

And then to further complicate things for those folks who need to feel self-righteously indignant, Western countries have been illegally dumping toxic waste on Somalia's coast, including radio active materials, medical bio hazard waste, industrial waste and other kinds of waste products that are hazardous to the environment (not to mention being hazardous to the people of Somalia, but we don't really care about them, so that's ok, but we have to defend the environment).

Must really suck to be self-righteously indignant these days. People keep blurring all of the lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:38 PM

Bobert I wanna go to the tryouts when they're scheduled. I can save the environment, feed the people, AND work for UN peace and disarmament goals in the region, if I've got all this straight.

Problem is, what job could you possibly tolerate once you've taken a 300,000 tonne ship? CEO of GM -b-o-r-i-n-g!! Astronaut, MAYBE, if there is a moon or Mars landing in the works.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 11:44 PM

I can't figure why the big ships don't hire defence personnel with heavy weapons either.   Surely it's worth not having to pay millions of dollars in ransom money when a ship gets siezed by pirates?

They must all be thinking it won't happen to them but to "the other guy".

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,John Gray in Oz
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:43 AM

What was Captain Hooks name before he lost a hand ?

JG/FME

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:04 AM

"I can't figure why the big ships don't hire defence personnel with heavy weapons either"

Hawk, I doubt that the crews of merchant vessels which carry huge quantities of a highly inflammable substance would want to get involved in a shooting episode. At least they stay alive if they don't oppose these 'pirates' (or freedom-fighters, or eco-warriors, or whatever anyone happens to perceive them as).

JG in Oz - Captain Hand?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:06 AM

And getting involved in a shooting-war could, of course, result in even greater ecological damage than has already happened (allegedly) in that area.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 07:16 AM

That's some good thinkin', Backwoodsman... Them folks jus' need to keep doin' what they are doin' while I assemble my Mudville Pirate Team... What 'till ya'll hear our demands... Oh sure, we'll get out millions in ransome but that just' the tip of the iceburg...

Right, gang???

I can almost see a clause in the agreement that has to do with banjos, and folks who hog jams, and people who play one song after another in G... You know, all the real important stuff that real pirates care about...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:03 AM

LOL Bobert! Can I join? I can say "Aaaaarrrrgghh, Jim Lad" in a gruff voice, and I've got a great scar, right across my belly.......! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 08:22 AM

You have a scar on yer belly, Backwoodsman??? Well, why didnh't ya' jus' say that earlier??? Yeah, yer in...

Hey, ya'll, move over and let this feller by... He's got a ***real***... From a ***real knife***... No store bought scars like ya'll pirate wantabees...

Come on board, mate!!!

And a big "Aaaaarrrrrgghh", back atcha...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 09:31 AM

The pirates have small boats, and the ships have big boats. If a machine gun started shooting up a small boat, there's a pretty good chance that it would sink. A big boat won't sink if it's shot up a bit with a machine gun. They could even build a bullet proof area where their security personnel could shoot from so they wouldn't have to worry about getting shot themselves.

I really don't think it would be all that difficult for big ships to defend themselves against these pirates.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:06 PM

"The pirates have small boats, and the ships have big boats. If a machine gun started shooting up a small boat, there's a pretty good chance that it would sink. A big boat won't sink if it's shot up a bit with a machine gun."

Eh, Not quite CarolC:

The pirates have small fast boats (and it is "boats" plural that carry out these attacks). A small fast boat is quite a difficult target to hit, unless you have a pretty sophisticated gunnery system. The pirates main armament is the RPG7 (Rocket propelled grenade launcher) so it is far easier for the small fast boat to hit the big boat than vice versa. In worst case scenario if the big boat, even armed as you suggest, was an oil tanker in ballast or a fully loaded LPG carrier a hit with an RPG on one of the tanks would be catastrophic. Now place the attack at night, much more difficult for the "big boat" - Goodnight Vienna, Game over.

Countries and ports that merchant ships visit have fairly restrictive laws regarding arms carried aboard ships that are not warships as do insurance companies, that is why merchant ships are not armed as some here have suggested.

Use of Q-ships is pretty much "hit and miss" and as such extremely ineffective. Blackwater have been using them out there for sometime now without success. The pirates launch their attacks from seaward from "mother-ships". A Q-ship, if it did manage to find and then entice the pirates to attack it, would only suceed in getting one, or possibly two of the small raiding craft, the "mother-ship" would still be out there, untouched and fully capable of supporting further acts of piracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 01:55 PM

I believe it was yesterday that a helicopter was able to drive off a bunch of pirates as they were trying to take a ship. If a helicopter can do it, I guess they could just have a handful of armed helicopters on board for the purpose of defending the ships.


More on the origins of the pirates...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27794695#27794695

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 03:26 PM

Doesn't do the job though does it. The problem still exists. To hit the pirates at sea requires time and one hell of a lot of effort on the part of a large number of countries.

Time required to build up a picture of what is normal and what is not. Once you have that recognition of an impending attack does stick out like a ball on a billiard table.

A great deal of effort is required both in terms of committing naval forces and co-operation from countries along the trading routes. Airpower is the key both in establishing the "picture" and prosecuting rapid intervention. That airpower would be land and carrier based assisted by Predator UAVs and Satellites.

No arrests, no trials, no prison sentences, penalty for piracy is death. Most important of all blockade and hammer the bases from which they operate.

Ultimately merchant ships could be modified to make them impervious to pirate attack and hijacking.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:08 PM

All that needs to be one is to make it more expensive for the pirates to do business than to not do business. That can be effectively done by denying them the opportunity to collect ransoms and steal from people. Killing some of them in the process would probably help, but it doesn't require the kind of effort that is outlined above. That's overkill.

Might want to use some of those forces, though, to deal with Kenyan arms smuggling into Sudan.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:18 PM

T-Bird is right, Carol... The grenade launcher kinda gives the pirates, regardless of the size of their boats, a big advantage... Lob a couple of grenades to the right area of the big boat and you have one heck of a mess...

I have some ideas on how to defense the pirates but seein' as I'm trying to put together a crew myself I ain't gonna talk 'bout 'um here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: heric
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:27 PM

ball bearings all over the decks? Coupled with spring net traps?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:59 PM

Perhaps only one tenth of maritime piracy incidents are reported. Furthermore, though there have been a recent spate of high profile Somalia related hijackings, Indonesia, not Somalia, is the most dangerous area, piracy wise--

Though the idea of having a shoot out with pirates on the high seas delights a number of you, arming crews in one way or another is not going to happen for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is that a few random sparks on an oil tanker could blow it up real good.

Solutions that work are rather prosaic--rolls of barbed wire across the stern, water hoses, iPods amplified to the threshold of pain, sand independent security specialists to keep watch--

Maritime piracy has been going on for a long time, and on a large scale.   For some reason, until very recently, we've tended to ignore it, and we get more agitated about the "piracy" of music files than the more tangible seizures of ships, and the murders and violence that accompany them. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 06:12 PM

Yeah, like back in '68 an' me an'a couple buddies had this little thing goin' and we were supposed to meet up with another boat a mile into the bay from Deltaville, Va to pick up several decent sized bags of smoke... All went well and we headed back to D-Ville in my buddy's Bayliner but when we got back seems there were several dudes waiting fir us with, ahhhhhh, guns who made it clear that if'n we wanted to not get shot that maybe we should just load them bags into the back of a van they had... We did, they drove off and we went home smokeless...

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 07:48 PM

I suspect the reason we're hearing more about it now, even though it's been a problem for a long time, and even though it's a bigger problem in another area that we're not hearing about, is because the governments of certain Western countries are probably looking for support among their electorates for some sort of large military action in the area of Somalia that has more to do with oil than pirates, and they're using the pirates as their excuse. That's how Western pirates seem to prefer to operate.

Whatever the Western governments are cooking up, I expect it will involve relieving some very poor people of their natural resources.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:22 PM

Yeah, I've been wondering about that too, Carol. I always wonder when something like this suddenly becomes "newsworthy". It's usually a way of manufacturing public consent for some major geopolitical or military move that has nothing to do with the purported "emergency" situation, but has some other purpose altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:26 PM

I pointed out up above that an arms race with the pirates is a bad idea. There's not a tanker crew alive who want their ship to be hit with RPGs, and they are kid's stuff compared with hand-held anti-tank weapons, which could punch a hole in ANYTHING that you build a commercial ship out of, and then explode inside. The pirates are reportedly tooling up from the arms dealers.
I should think that the only military solution is motor-gun-boats, bigger and better-armed than the opposition.
Now, if only there was a navy with some to spare!
Probably get some from arms dealers?

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 10:56 PM

No one has ever stolen a ship full of 30 Russian T-72 tanks before. That's newsworthy.

No one has ever stolen a 300,000 tonne ship filled with $100,000,000 worth of crude before. That's newsworthy.

Somalian pirates have skyrocketed from 4% of pirate attacks a year or two ago, to one third of all attacks this year. That's newsworthy.

The Indian navy has never attacked and sunk a pirate mother-ship before. That's newsworthy.

Maybe it's a big conspiracy by the American government, but maybe not.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 11:06 PM

Piracy in the Malacca Strait has been a big topic in mainstream American media for a long time.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/10/malacca-strait-pirates/pirates-text

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 11:25 PM

Terribus-

Would implementing a convoy system make more sense to you? I'm puzzled why that's not being done. I would think that one or two frigates could certainly provide armed escort for a dozen or more of the big fellas and frustrate even tenacious pirates.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 11:56 PM

I would guess that with lease rates far in excess of $100,000 per day (and in excess of $200,000 for a monster like the Sirius Star) the approach is financially mpractical. On the other hand, I read that tanker was holding a 1/4 day's worth of Saudi maritime exports. So. . . .

One of the reasons that attacks frequently don't get reported (other than insurance) is the delay that might result. Time is big big money. On top of all that, as the matter is an accepted cost of doing business, otherwise financed, it would take a big reason to convince governments to pay and use their military personnel as chaperones.

These Somalian pirates may be over-harvesting, to their own destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 12:41 AM

Definitely over-harvesting:

Islamists: We'll fight Somali pirates

Radical group objects to seizure of ships belonging to Muslim countries

The Associated Press
updated 12:35 p.m. CT, Fri., Nov. 21, 2008

MOGADISHU, Somalia - A radical Islamic group in Somalia said Friday it will fight the pirates holding a Saudi supertanker loaded with $100 million worth of crude oil.

Abdelghafar Musa, a fighter with al-Shabab who claims to speak on behalf of all Islamic fighters in the Horn of Africa nation, said ships belonging to Muslim countries should not be seized.

"We are really sorry to hear that the Saudi ship has been held in Somalia. We will fight them (the pirates)," Musa told AP Television News.

[end quote]

Some additional posturing at the link.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 01:08 AM

To implement a convoy system in order to protect ships passing through the area would also involve a great deal of effort and organisation.

Speed of a convoy is? Speed of the slowest ship. That would not sit well with Container ship operators whose vessels are very large and very fast.

East bound no problem, as most ships are passing through the Suez Canal - a natural and logical "collection" point to form up your convoy. West bound there is no such point. If you form one out of an area at sea the pirate "mother ships" hit their targets as they make their way towards it. Alternatively they attack with the natural dispersal of merchant ships after they have passed through the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden.

If convoys were organised it still would not solve the problem it would at best reduce losses. During the Battle of the Atlantic the convoys helped reduce merchant shipping losses and in the process a few U-boats were sunk. What really tipped the balance and won the battle was down to, escort carriers, the formation of "hunter-killer" groups and the closing of the "mid-Atlantic-gap" with air patrols, all measures designed to search out and sink submarines, i.e. the battle was taken to the predator.

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Nov 08 - 01:08 AM

Oh and piracy and pirate attacks have been news worthy over here in Europe for decades - 100 Up