BS: Update on Somali Pirates

Subject: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:03 PM

Here's a good report on the present day Somali pirates and their base of operation at the Port of Eyl in the semi-autonomous region of Puntland: Click here for website!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:27 PM

Piracy is probably the second oldest profession. It was Barbary Coast pirates who, holding a US ship ransom, elicited the response in Congress "Millions for defense but not one cent for tribute!"
Although the "millions for defense" comment is trather laughable in a day when 20 million won't buy a single Coast Guard cutter, the "not one cent for tribute" is still sound. Since this piracy is confined to a fairly small region of the ocean, I would suggest a united approach by maritime nations affected to marshall an escort force off the Somali coast who would be authorized to fire only one warning shot across the bow of any fast-approaching motor launch, that to be followed by a shot in the center of the hull.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:29 PM

Me too. When it comes to piracy on the high seas? No mercy. There is no point negotiating with pirates, it just encourages them and enriches them. I would also quietly equip numerous vessels with hidden military forces like the WWII Q-ships and use them as bait and then exterminate those bastards when they pull alongside until they collectively decided on an easier and safer means of earning a living.

All you need is 15 or 20 commandos, well-armed and waiting on the ship of choice.

Considering the ridiculous amount of money that is pumped into futile efforts like the Iraq war, I think some could better be allocated to wipe out piracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:40 PM

If there were an easy solution, you would think that someone would have coordinated it.

Evidently no one wants to try blockading the Port of Eyl.

Charley Noble, who prefers to sing about pirates

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 05:46 PM

The solution wouldn't be easy. It would take a sustained and costly effort on the part of many nations to stop piracy. It would take an iron political will to do it, and I think that that is what is probably lacking right now, because the powers that be mostly have their minds on other matters...such as fighting wars in the Middle East.

Believe me, if those pirates were causing a serious interruption in the USA's international oil supply...then the big hammer would come down.

The piracy itself, of course, is partly driven by extreme poverty in places like Somalia. That's another problem that would require a sustained and costly effort to fix.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Amos
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:21 PM

We;;, if their biutts were kicked into action to the point of building a government it would be a start. It's worse than West Texas in 1805 over there.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Charmion
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 08:11 PM

For the last six weeks (four more to go), the Canadian frigate HMCS Ville de Québec has been trudging back and forth between Mombasa and Mogadishu, escorting freighters loaded with World Food Programme corn and soy meal through those pirate-infested waters. Until this week we also had three ships in Combined Task Force 150, the coalition fleet patrolling the Arabian Sea, Persian Gulf and northwest Indian Ocean. They were supposed to be conducting "maritime security operations" (code for hunting terrorists) off the coasts of Iran and Pakistan. They ended up chasing pirates off Somalia.

Piracy in the Gulf of Aden and the northwest Indian Ocean won't go away until somebody acts in a frankly imperial manner to straighten out the mess that is Somalia.

The Horn of Africa controls the southern access to the Red Sea and the Suez Canal, so don't hold your breath waiting for the United States or NATO or anybody else to wade into Somalia to kick ass and take names. That job would take a major invasion followed by occupation, military government -- the full meal deal, and the big Arab countries, led by Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya and the United Arab Emirates, would never stand for that. Ethopia, Eritrea and Sudan wouldn't be too happy, either.

I think an effort to square away Somalia would just start a massive war in east Africa. Gee, what a good idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Escapee
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:05 PM

The US Navy runs decoy operations in that area. They do not indulge in warning shots.
Fair winds (but not for pirates)
SKP

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 09:19 PM

Charmion-

A "solution" requires more focus and resources than anyone is willing to commit at this point.

Pirates do operate in the "margins" of the maritime world, be it off the Horn of Africa or in the China Seas.

Escapee-

And where are you from? It would be interesting to get another perspective on this question.

Amos-

You can do better than that.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:49 PM

The Russians have sent a Frigate - that'll fix 'em!


Btw, the Pirates are currently holding for ransom a ship with 37 battle tanks for the Kenya Army...

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:03 PM

Charmion, I think you are absolutely right when you say that, "I think an effort to square away Somalia would just start a massive war in east Africa."

I'm not recommending any such military intervention in Somalia. I'm simply recommending a very vigorous policing of international waters in such a way as to definitely discourage piracy. It's become a growing problem in many other areas too, not just off the horn of Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Escapee
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:17 AM

Charley Noble,What does that mean, "where are you from?" I didn't say they would solve the problem, just that they run Q-ship type operations. How many perspectives does a bare fact need?

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:49 AM

The Somali pirates have been very busy this year, astonishingly busy. In addition to the Ukrainian transport with its 33 Russian made T-72 tanks (and ammunition) they've attached 60 other ships this year alone, 17 in the first two weeks of september. Evidently the Somalis are currently holding for ransom "14 oil tankers, cargo vessels and other ships with a total of more than 300 crew members."

Last year there were only 13 ships attacked in this part of the world. Clearly, more Somalis view piracy as a lucrative enterprise.

Seems as if a convoy system needs to be employed.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:51 AM

Escapee-

"Charley Noble,What does that mean, "where are you from?"

I've sent you a PM and for anyone else concerned I was only curious about his/her geographic location.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM

"exterminate those bastards"

No Habeas Corpus?

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Escapee
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:54 PM

Thanks for the PM Charley Noble. My perspective is that It's not really a naval or Military problem. Piracy is repeatedly "wiped out" only to re-emerge when political and economic factors stimulate its re-birth.Until Somalia can be repaired, The only solution I can see is dealing with pirates one at a time.Dangerous, inefficient and expensive, but probably better than a Barbary Pirates type war.
SKP

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:38 PM

Sawzaw, there are certain rare cases where I am willing to exterminate specific people who are caught red-handed in the act of committing a violent crime. Piracy on the high seas is one of them. I consider it an act of open war, you see, and open war involves killing people.

In this case it's a privately waged open war on the part of some criminal individuals against society in general all around them. I don't have any sympathy for pirates.

Mind you, if they surrendered, I would consider imprisoning them...providing they had any time to surrender, I mean. It would all depend on the exact circumstances, wouldn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: PoppaGator
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:38 PM

"...privately waged open war..."

I think that is an exact description of what the US is up against, and has been up against, since 9/11. The enemy is not, and never has been, any other nation-state, and the effort to fight back in terms of old-fashioned conventional nation-vs-nation warfare was completely wrong-headed and doomed from the start.

Maybe we need to take on these pirates as an exercise in learning how to deal with all the other kinds of terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:53 PM

Evidently, from BBC news this evening, the pirates are battling it out among themselves aboard the MV Faina; those who want to surrender and those who want to hold out for millions of dollars.

No honor among these pirates, if there ever was honor among pirates.

Charley Noble, safe in my office chair

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:35 AM

This morning's newspaper quotes a press release from the pirates aboard the MV Faina denying reports of a "shootout" among them; they say they were just celebrating the end of Ramadan in their traditional fashion.

Evidently the various naval ships surrounding the MV Faina are permitting additional food supplies and water to be brought in.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:47 AM

Great name for a band

Black Jake and the Somali Pirates

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:36 AM

I don't see the difference between the Pirates and Terrorists except Pirates are in it for the money. Some of the money probably eventually goes to terrorists anyway.

I see no reason why convicted murderers should not be executed when Pirates can be executed with no trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:46 AM

Arms runners & Pirates, hmm who do we save...neither

surround, torpedo, and sink all survivors.

Let the insurance companies pay or not pay, I have no sympathy for arms runners or pirates or arms sellers or arms buyers.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:48 AM

Why stop at murderers. What about people who start singing with their guitar out of tune. People who put huge speakers in the boot of their car and wear baseball hats back to front. People who eat foreign foods and people who fart in the lift.....

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:47 AM

Weelittledrummer-

You might be on to something! And while we're at it could the executioners be executed as well.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:50 PM

There are too many different reasons and different individual circumstances involved with civil cases of murder to simply say, "We should execute all convicted murderers." That's why, Sawzaw. Many murders involve very complex human situations.

*****

Now, regarding piracy...

I have a lot more respect for someone who engages in violent acts over some political beliefs or ideals they have than someone who does it just to get a bunch of money.

For instance, Sawzaw, the American revolutionaries in 1775 were terrorists of their time in a legal sense, because within the British Empire they were committing treasonous acts causing property damage and death, and the British considered them as terrorists and traitors and would definitely hang them if they caught them.

But...I respect those revolutionaries because they were fighting for certain ideals which they felt were right. I have some measure of respect for anyone who lays his life on the line over a political or social ideal that he holds. (That doesn't necessarily mean I agree with him or what he'd doing.)

A pirate who boards a ship, however, is not fighting on behalf of any ideals. He's simply stealing from other people for his own gain. I have no respect for that. Therefore, I am less inclined to show him mercy.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM

"For instance, Sawzaw, the American revolutionaries in 1775 were terrorists of their time in a legal sense,"

No they were not "terrorists", they were "revolutionaries", in the period you state people changed things by either voting with their feet, resorting to treason to over throw the government or system they objected to in collusion with another power, or you stood in open rebellion. In the 18th Century there was no such thing as a "terrorist" in the sense we have "terrorists" nowadays.

"A pirate who boards a ship, however, is not fighting on behalf of any ideals. He's simply stealing from other people for his own gain. I have no respect for that." - Little Hawk

I take it that you do know how those "terrorists" that you respect initially obtain the funds that their organisations needs to grt started and keep functioning??

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:36 PM

Ask someone else about it. I simply can't be bothered talking with you, mate, because you are completely lacking in any human quality or shred of goodwill that would even make you worth talking to.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:07 AM

A correction to what I said above regarding the 18th Century. Late 1700's is when "terror" was deliberately imposed upon a civilian population to keep it in order - This was "The Terror", whose symbols were the Tumbril and Guillotine, introduced by "revolutionaries" supposedly bringing "Liberty", "Fraternity" and "Equality" to the people of France.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 03:02 PM

I understand that the Somali "Government" has given its permission for foreign powers to do whatever needs to be done within their territorial waters. Of course they don't have an air force or navy, and I doubt if the Ethiopians who are providing most of their military muscle have any desire to get more involved.

This could be an interesting and instructive thread if posters would do some more homework, and not just shoot from the hip. Sigh!

I don't object to thread drift but personal attacks are just annoying, and I may ask that they be deleted.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:19 AM

"Since this piracy is confined to a fairly small region of the ocean"

The trouble is that it is not, the coast of Somalia, the Horn of Africa and the approaches to the Red Sea is only one area where piracy exists. The Malacca Straits (where the warning phrase associated with pirates and designed to scare, "The boogie-man'll get you" was first coined) is as bad if not worse and off the West Coast of Africa are another two.

You deal with it in exactly the same manner as it was dealt with previously, I'll amend what Charmion suggested as follows:

"Piracy won't go away until somebody acts in a frankly imperial manner to straighten out the mess."

Piracy has always been dealt with harshly because an attack at sea means that survivors of the initial attack are entirely at the mercy of their attackers, they are on a ship in the middle of an ocean, they cannot get away. As such the easiest and most efficient means of dealing with prisoners has been to put them to death - "Dead men tell no tales". Historically the "law of the sea", demanded the same fate for Pirates, summary justice.

I can remember a conversation while I was in the Navy when Harold Wilson announced the plan to withdraw from "East of Suez", one participant in this discussion stated, "10 years after we leave Singapore, piracy in the South China Sea and in the Straits of Singapore will be as much of a problem as it was one hundred years ago". His prediction has proved to be true. By that time we had already quit Aden and pirates had already begun to operate from the small islands in the approaches to the Red Sea.

The vessel currently being held apparently was transporting Russian T-72 Battle Tanks, supposedly to Kenya for the Kenian Army, now it transpires they were bound for the Sudan, for use I would presume in Darfur. The Russian frigate that is hastening towards the scene is there to do what? Ensure that the ship and it's cargo are not destroyed??

Oh and before anyone thinks on quick fix solutions, there aren't any. Again as stated previously it will take time, effort and a great deal of expense if you want to protect your trade - it always has - in the areas we are talking about between the early 1800's up to about the mid-1960's that protection was provided courtesy of the Royal Navy and the "evil British Empire". On thing is for certain the United Nations will do damn all about it, simply because it has nothing to do anything about it with.

But a good start would be to make sure anybody toddling about a beach or quayside in Somalia think twice about setting out to sea in anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:53 AM

A short rope and a long drop.

Sorry to offend anyone, but piracy -- now and historically -- has been one of the nastiest things humans do to each other. Edward Low, Teach, the creatures who inhabited Cave-In-Rock and the rest have nothing over the modern sludge who preyed on fleeing Vietnamese boat people and still prey on whatever and whoever they can. Pirates have, and still do, sell people into slavery.

A coalition of nations, a joint naval task force dedicated to wiping them out, would meet with my approval anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: EBarnacle
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:40 PM

Unfortunately, the situation with Jack Ketch is similar to the torture conundrum.

They currently have prisonrs/hostages. If we respond with deadly force after capturing pirates, more hostages are likely to wind up dead before their time. On the other hand, sentencing them to a lifetime in a Turkish or Mexican style jail might be an effective deterrent.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:07 PM

Send Obama over to talk to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:26 PM

The Pirates are in for it now, The UN is after them:

AP, UNITED NATIONS
Saturday, Oct 04, 2008

A proposed new UN resolution calls on all countries with a stake in maritime safety to send naval ships and military aircraft to fight piracy on the high seas off the coast of Somalia, a draft report states.

The draft UN Security Council resolution would also call on ships and planes to use "the necessary means" to stop acts of piracy. It was drafted under Chapter VII of the UN Charter, which means its provisions can be enforced militarily.

The French-drafted resolution was expected to be put to a vote in the council early next week, council diplomats said, speaking on condition of anonymity because discussions are taking place in private.

The draft resolution expresses grave concern at "the recent proliferation of acts of piracy and armed robbery at sea against vessels off the coast of Somalia." It also notes with concern "that increasingly violent acts of piracy are carried out with heavier weaponry, in a larger area off the coast of Somalia" using mother ships and more sophisticated methods of attack.

On Thursday, Somali pirates holding a hijacked Ukrainian cargo ship loaded with tanks and heavy weapons said they will not release it for less than US $20 million and warned they would fight back against any commando-style rescue attempts. A half-dozen US Navy warships have surrounded the MV Faina, which was seized last Thursday off the central coast of Somalia.

The new draft resolution only applies to pirates off Somalia, whose 3,025km coastline is the longest in Africa and near key shipping routes that connect the Indian Ocean with the Red Sea.

Most pirate attacks occur in the Gulf of Aden, one of the world's busiest shipping lanes, to the north of Somalia. But recently pirates have been targeting Indian Ocean waters off eastern Somalia.

More than 60 ships have been attacked in the notorious African waters this year.

The draft resolution says the pirates and robbers pose a "serious threat ... to the prompt, safe and effective delivery of humanitarian aid to Somalia," where as many as 3.5 million Somalis will reportedly be dependent on food aid by the end of the year.

It urges all states and regional organizations to continue taking action to protect UN World Food Programme maritime convoys, which are vital to bring humanitarian assistance to as many as 3.5 million Somalis who will reportedly be dependent on food aid by the end of the year.

A resolution adopted by the Security Council in early June authorized countries, for a period of six months, with advance notice, to enter Somalia's territorial waters and use "all necessary means" to stop acts of piracy and armed robbery at sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Peace
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:29 AM

I am in agreement with Rapaire, 100%. However, we may differ just a little on method. The rope and drop thing works, but it would be much easier to use air power or sea launched cruise missles. Save the cost of a trial. And feed the sharks at the same time. It's a "win win" situation. (Keriste, I hate that cliched term!)

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 08:41 AM

"Send Obama over to talk to them."

but surely Palin would disarm them?

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Peace
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:03 AM

If they had to listen to her talk, they'd hang themselves!

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:11 AM

At least the pirates can sleep safely in their beds knowing that the British Government will,as usual,do absolutely nothing militaristic or bellicose,even if every ship in the British Mercantile Fleet is taken on the high seas ! Something about "pirates rights", I expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:21 AM

Send Moose Palin and Obambi both.

Good cop / Bad cop. But which is which?

Which is Dirty Harriet and which is the Pillsbury Dough boy?

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:44 PM

Peace, to use missiles would wreck or destroy the ship that the pirates have taken over. I don't see that as being a good solution. ;-)

No, I think that small arms fire at close range is by far the better way to go in this case. If you want to use missiles, use them before the pirates have boarded a merchant ship, not afterward.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:18 AM

Well there's the 'scorched earth' policy LH - if we can't have it, neither can they... of course, in the situation, there's a few dampeners to that...

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Peace
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:22 AM

Good eye, Little Hawk. OK, plan B. Air drop lots of really good drugs with acid in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:27 AM

"small arms fire"

These days 'small arms fire' can probably sink ships too...

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Sawzaw
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 12:20 AM

Somehow, not talking to pirates is punishment to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Gurney
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 01:56 AM

Sometimes, not talking about pirates makes them invisible!

Nothing in our news about this at all!

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: vectis
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM

As i understood the situation there was, until fairly recently, a British warship on patrol in the area quietly dealing with the pirates. The rise in attacks by pirates began when it was replaced by UN ships who couldn't coordinate a session in a brewery...

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:19 AM

I can't find any reference to the UN having any naval patrols off Somalia. According to the LA Times on 28th September, "During the summer, the U.N. Security Council passed a resolution to allow foreign ships in Somalia's territorial waters to combat piracy. The U.N. may take additional measures to curtail the banditry and European nations are considering establishing a new naval mission for the region."

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: bubblyrat
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:51 AM

I can just see the head line now !!....
    "Boarding -party from British warship captured by Somali pirates ! Sailors ask for mercy and return of their I-Pods ! "

Subject: RE: BS: Update on Somali Pirates
From: Gulliver
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:13 PM

"Some will rob you with a shot-gun,
Some with a fountain pen"