BS: You and the stimulus plan

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:11 PM

The problem is world-wide. Don't give the American banks and politicians sole credit for the breakdown. Now China, Japan, the EU countries France, UK, Germany, etc., are all doling out money in their own stimulus plans.

In some ways, Little Hawk is correct about a giant pyramid scheme. That is the way the capitalist system has grown, by creating money and credit, and is responsible for the increase in population and goods ever since the Venetians (or push it back as far as you want), the Industrial Revolution movers and shakers, and all who created businesses and hired people, got the ball rolling.
(I think the grammar is lousy in the above paragraph, but understandable).

Whichever politician is blamed for contributing to the current situation, each of them only caused a local blip. The failing is universal.

Reform of the system is needed, but that will take several years, and cooperation on a global basis. The bailouts are beginning to look like band-aid solutions to a massive global collapse.
Tighten your belts!

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:14 PM

Supply side or trickle down or whatever you want to call it didn't do near as much as you think to get the economy in the shape it's in today. That was done by your boy, Clinton...

Here's a perfect example of NeoCon brain death & wishful thinking. No facts need apply.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 06:18 PM

"Trickle Down Economics" always seemed to me to be what happens to a blind man trying to understand an elephant with diarrhea.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 09:09 PM

Yeah, Rap, I think you've got it!

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Sawzaw
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:22 PM

Chuck Schumer "Why quibble over $200 million?"

Sounds to me like trickle down economics when you say any spending is stimulus.

All of the damnble pork of earlier years when Repubs were in control is now declared beneficial by the democrats because it stimulates the economy.


$1.5 million to get the whores off the streets of Dayton?

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Sawzaw
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:26 PM

Obama's tax cuts made it into the "stimulus!" As a result, you get a $13 a week tax credit. Next year it drops to $8.


Were rich now!!!

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Sawzaw
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:50 PM

$2 million for neon signs for Las Vegas?

Won't that burn more energy?

Who has more money than the casinos in Vegas to buy neon signs?

  Top Contributors to Harry Reid during the 2006 Election Cycle
  Rank        Donor                     Amount (US Dollars)
  1        MGM Mirage                    $ 98,200
  2        Harrah's Entertainment        $ 78,600
  3        Simmons Cooper LLC            $ 73,400
  4        Mandalay Resort Group         $ 62,350
  5        Station Casinos               $ 38,000
  

Remenber Harry Reid's bridge earmark?

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 02:53 PM

To those who may get their economic information from talking heads.... Not that there is anything wrong with that other than the possibility of mishearing.

Keynes
John Maynard Keynes
Keynesian

One of
A singe one
not One-off
as in take one off.


Sawzaw said
>>>Sounds to me like trickle down economics when you say any spending is stimulus.

If that is the case then you have no idea what "trickle down" economics is. It is the idea of putting money in the hands of the wealthy "elites" because they know how to most efficiently invest it. Obviously in the spending bill the government is deciding what the best investments are.

If you are unsure of the meaning of the phrases you plan to use, you could, once in a while, at least look them up.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: pdq
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 03:00 PM

A few people call him "Dirty Harry" Reid. More should.

He and his wife, four sons and his daughter's husband have a law firm together. One bill that was presented to a "client" for whom Harry and family had paved the way politically simply read "$450,000 for services rendered".

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:31 PM

pdq- source?

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:58 PM

They took the E-Verify provision out, when completely screws the American worker.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 08:18 PM

Here's transparency for ya......


and you guys said Bush was a brown shirt.



Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:53 AM

Right you are. "Humanevents.com" - a right-wing, BuShite, neocon blog. What's next, Hub? Quotes from The Protocols Of The Elders of Zion?

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:55 AM

And your complaints about anti-Bush messages in the NYT???

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: pdq
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:19 PM

Instead of all the hissing and spitting by the usual suspects, can someone explain way we are about to spend $800 billion dollars on pork barrel projects without eveng thinking things through? Call it what you want, it looks like irresponsible excess spending and little else.

This is said to be so urgent that the public may not even get to read it before it is passed and signed. We should, at the very least, get to look at the final text for the 48 hours that Harry Reid and friends promised. Can you say "railroaded"?

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:04 PM

Congressmen are complaining that they don't have time to read and comprehend either. But it's only money! Over 500 pp. the last I heard.

(Hope no one sees the line inserted by a printer friend of mine that gives me a million- a very tiny morsel of pork).

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: pdq
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:18 PM

Not to worry, my Nevada Senator "Dirty Harry" Reid has inserted an $8 billion provision to build a train from Los Angeles to Los Vegas. Bring them gamblers in.

The train may be a good idea, maybe not, but Reid should be honest enough to bring it up in a separate bill and have a sane debate. This is high-handed and shows why a poll earlier this showed the Senate's approval at 7%...and the same people are still there after the election.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:30 PM

I want money for cancer research! Not a problem you got it.

I like solar energy! Me too yeah everybody does. Check.

Wind energy too! Absolutely. Check. What else?

I hate the minimum tax! Oh year fer sure. The masses hat it too. That's in.

How about making cars go farther on a gallon of gas and shit? Good. All right.

Way less taxes! Wait come on work with us here, we need social benefit.

. . . .

Shit that's $860,000,000,000

Knock it down to seven-something.

Yeah good. That's better.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:34 PM

Several bus lines run non-stop buses for gamblers from LA and SF. They will have to lay off drivers.
Someone mentioned the bill had $3 billion for first nations. I would like to know the provisions.

I guess the content will trickle down to us in the weeks and months to come. One could buy a copy from the GPO, but at over 500 pages, it won't be cheap.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:42 PM

Perhaps the best thing about the stimulus plan is the deep conservatism of it. For the first time there is real money going towards energy efficiency and conservation all across America.      Huge amounts of energy will be conserved.

I have yet to hear one conservative praise this conservatism.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:44 PM

Real money or money printed by the U.S. Treasury?

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: pdq
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:53 PM

When Reagan gave money to employers to hire new people, it was called "trickle-down economics" and the news media people called it bad.

When Harry Reid and friends give money to employers to hire people for his pet projects, they call it an "investment in your future".

When Reagan increased the National Debt $1.6 trillion in eight years, it was called "wreckless deficit spending".

When Reid, Pelosi and Obama demand we pass an instant deficit-raising package that increases the deficit by $0.82 trillion in Obama's first three weeks in office, it is called a "stimulus package".

Perhaps we need to define terms before a dabate.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:53 PM

"Huge amounts of energy will be conserved"

The best joke since the Marx brothers.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 11:35 AM

Gregg said the Obama administration made a "tactical mistake" on the stimulus bill by allowing it to be written by "House appropriators, and if it were written by Senate appropriators, the same problem would have occurred.''

"It should have been drafted, or at least the philosophy that drove it should have been drafted, by people who were thinking about the larger picture of how you get the economy going." . . .

Appropriators, as Gregg called them, "by definition don't have focus and are only interested usually in the accounts they have jurisdiction over. They all have their small arena of responsibility.

"They don't come from a philosophical standpoint," he said. "They come from a standpoint of 'plussing up' whatever accounts they are responsible for."

Gregg said the result is "an unfocused product where we're spending a lot of money on initiatives which really aren't going to be all that much of a stimulus or are outside of the two-year window or are basically just social spending for the sake of constituency support." . . .

Gregg said he was not opposed to the bill simply because of its huge bottom line.

"The policy drives the number," he said, "and if you could put good policy in place, I would have no problem with the number."

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 12:07 PM

Here you go Q, the entire thing online .

Apparently there is even a line that says "None if this money can go to Blago."

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 12:38 PM

Not the final, Heric- only 647 pages, and the final passed bill is over 1000 pages.

A peculiar clause authorizes payment of state and local taxes on new vehicles (including recreational, SUV and light trucks).
This can be used by the states to fiddle more tax money. New Mexico Legislature is moving to increase taxes on vehicles. Other states will probably follow.
Some measures like this one do not seem to have limits that confine them to the operational time of the bill.

Much will go towards highways and bridges. This will help contractors (who already have crews). Doubtful that any real increase in employment wil result and most of that will be temporary.

The health portion provides some relief, but no universal health care on the horizon.

I was wrong, even the Marx Brothers couldn't have conceived of such wacky legislation.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 12:58 PM

I could read the text of the entire stimulus bill and attempt to understand it......(and probably fail utterly in that attempt)....and then opinionate forcefully here about it for days and days!

Or I could do something that actually is useful in my real life...like shovel off the front walk, or get the books up to date in my business.

See ya later, I guess. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:01 PM

Oh, crap. I'm about a third of the way through it, this one (there's nothing about a Vegas train in it):

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/hr1_engrossed.pdf

which is 680 pages. (It's not as bad as it sounds - there are only 25 lines per page.)

Can't opine yet of course, but I am liking it a lot more than what is described in newspapers. (The first nations stuff I've seen is all about direct spending on infrastucture, housing, education and health care.)


Guess I had better wait for the one with the 400 pages of extra crap.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:03 PM

Later, Hawk.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: pdq
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:14 PM

"New Mexico Legislature is moving to increase taxes on vehicles. Other states will probably follow."

Oh, wonderful. An increase in sales tax supresses car sales. It has been demonstrated many times. After all, a $30,000 vehicle will cost the buyer between $2000 and $3000 in sales tax depending on the state where sold.

States like California extract an annual registration fee that is huge, seeming punative.

In Nevada, I just re-registered my old car for "$33.00 REG FEE and $11.00 BASIC GOV SVCS TAX", unquote. Quite resonable.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 01:18 PM

$14 billion for special ed!

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 02:42 PM

Well, I really can't find anything on line or in the news about an increase in vehicle sales taxes in New Mexico, and I live there.   Of course, the legislature is now in session, and lots of things get proposed that never see the light of day. I'd personally think that a regressive tax based upon weight and horsepower would be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 03:06 PM

The article is in the online Santa Fe New Mexican, Feb. 14. I looked at the headline and didn't read it so I was partly wrong- they are considering increasing the excise tax from 3% to 4% of the value of new cars.
"Two Proposals would tax car owners," Kate Nash, The New Mexican, 2/13/2009.

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/Local%20News/Two-proposals-would-tax-car-owners

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 03:10 PM

OK, thanks...very unlikely to get out of committee.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Sawzaw
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 01:40 PM

You are right JTS. It does not fit the definiton of tricledown economics.

What I meant to imply, rather abstractly is that this stimulus plan sounds as workable to me as trickledown economics.

If any of this money is ever regained by the government, whatever reduction in the national debt it by cause, it will have cost a lot in interest and eventually it will cause inflation down the road that will more that offset any gains it affords to the poor and middle class.

Only the wealthy will not be harmed by the future inflation it will cause.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: pdq
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 03:06 PM

Recovery Bill Gets Final Approval

By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN
Published: February 13, 2009

WASHINGTON — Congress on Friday approved a $787 billion economic stimulus measure, meeting the crushing mid-February deadline that Democrats had set for adopting the centerpiece of President Obama's early agenda but without quelling partisan divisions in Washington. Not a single House Republican voted for the bill.

The House vote was 246 to 183, with just 7 Democrats joining all 176 Republicans in opposition. In the Senate, the vote, 60 to 38, was similarly partisan. Only 3 centrist Republicans joined 55 Democrats and 2 independents in favor.

The Senate finally adopted the bill at 10:47 p.m. after what appeared to be the longest Congressional vote in history. The peculiar 5-hour 17-minute process was required because Senator Sherrod Brown, Democrat of Ohio, had to return to Washington from his home state after attending a funeral home visitation for his mother, who died Feb. 2.

Under a procedural deal between the parties, the bill needed 60 votes to pass. The vote began at 5:30 p.m., but from 7:07 p.m., when Senator Evan Bayh, Democrat of Indiana, cast his "aye," the tally hung at 59 to 38, until Mr. Brown arrived.

Mr. Obama is expected to sign the bill on Monday.

Among the senators voting against it was Judd Gregg, Republican of New Hampshire, who withdrew this week as the president's nominee for commerce secretary.

Despite the bill's promise of increased unemployment benefits and new health care subsidies, as well as more than $100 billion in aid for states, House Republicans did not break rank. Even those from states hit hardest by the recession opposed the bill, in a rebuke of the new president.

During the debate, the Republican leader, Representative John A. Boehner of Ohio, angrily dropped the 1,073-page bill text to the floor with a thump, as he accused Democrats of failing to read the legislation.

"The president made clear when we started this process that this was about jobs," Mr. Boehner said after the vote. "Jobs. Jobs. Jobs. And what it's turned into is nothing more than spending, spending and more spending."

The $787 billion plan — a combination of fast-acting tax cuts and longer-term government spending on public works projects, education, health care, energy and technology — was smaller than Democrats first proposed. But, according to an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office, more than 74 percent of the money will be spent within the next 18 months, a relatively rapid pace that could determine whether the plan succeeds.

The House voted in the afternoon, and Speaker Nancy Pelosi and fellow Democrats cheered on the floor. Ms. Pelosi handed out chocolate bars to her committee chairmen. The label showed a picture of the Capitol and read, "A stimulus package we can all sink our teeth into."

At a news conference, Ms. Pelosi and her top lieutenants praised Mr. Obama for completing the legislation so quickly.

"The president requested swift, bold action," Ms. Pelosi said. "The American people are feeling a great deal of pain. They have uncertainty about their jobs, about health care, about the ability to pay for the education of their children, and sad to say in our great country, even to put food on the table. And today we have passed legislation that does take that swift, bold action on their behalf."

Just four weeks into Mr. Obama's presidency, the Democrats boasted that they had already approved three major bills: a measure to curb pay-discrimination against women in the workplace, a broad expansion of the state children's health insurance program and the stimulus.

"We have yet to pass the 30th day of this administration," said the House majority leader, Steny H. Hoyer, Democrat of Maryland. "And we have passed historic legislation."

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 03:50 PM

DEBT LIMIT INCREASE
The bill increases the statutory limit on the national debt by $789 billion, to $12.1 trillion.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: GUEST,Susu's Hubby
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 09:05 PM

Let's get it done now.....wait, it's done?.....I'll sign when vacation's over!


You gotta laugh at stuff like this!

Yeah...he's concerned.

Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:54 AM

July 09, 2008 NBC

PONTIAC, Mich -- In response to a question about the economic stimulus checks administered by the U.S. government earlier this year, Michelle Obama said her husband believes that short-term fixes don't solve economic problems.

"You're getting $600," she told an audience of mostly African-American women here. "What can you do with that? Not to be ungrateful or anything. But maybe it pays down a bill, but it doesn't pay down every bill every month."

"Barack's approach is that the short-term quick fix kinda stuff sounds good," she continued. "And it may even feel good that first month when you get that check. And then you go out and you buy a pair of earrings,"

$13 x 52 weeks= $676

Change we can believe in?

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:13 AM

Exactly. A 'feel good' proposal.

A bill composed of many 'feel good' proposals.

I'm waiting for my little bit to buy a few bottles of single malt- and I'll feel even gooder!

(hic..)

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 03:23 AM

The closest I've been able to find for a "final" bill is the bill sent back to both houses by the Conference Committee. That should be close to what at least the first round of votes was on. There generally aren't amendments to the committe haggle. It's either accepted or rejected. That it passed probably means very few changes, if any were made.

The Committee version is at Huffington now -- dated 12 FEb, not the same thing linked up above.

To get the full "Committee version" you have to download 4 pdf files, total about 52 MB, so it might be as well to wait until the gpo gets the whole-and-really-final-version online. The Committee version is a markup, with a few "graphics" showing where the red-pencil marks were embedded, so a plain text version could be a little smaller but probably not much.

Reports are that Obama will arrive in Denver on Tuesday, and will sign it "in Denver;" but the reports I've seen don't indicate just how long he'll be in Denver, so it's not necessarily a done deal on Tuesday, but that would be a good place to put your money in the pool at the office.

John

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 08:44 AM

Now that the stimulus package has been enacted by Congress, the question remains, who was it designed to help? The House mandated that projects using stimulus money would have to use the E-Verify system for the purpose of ensuring that people employed under the program were legal to live and work in the country. The Senate version took E-Verify out and efforts by the joint conference committee to put it back in were unsuccessful. Meanwhile, the Obama Administration has delayed implementation of a rule that would have required federal contractors to use E-Verify, and the president further indicates he will happily sign the stimulus bill as is.
        What this tells those of us who follow such things is, both Congress and the new administration intend for the stimulus money to go to people who are not legally here and who will gleefully send 80% of their earnings out of the country. Now, if we only knew where all of that money will end up, American taxpayers could go there and be stimulated.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 09:56 AM

Since it is my wife's job to approve or remove goverment medical research programs, you can imagine the increased work load that the stimulus bill is causing. After 2 attempts to structure the most most rapid and efficient way to get the money into the system the OMB has defied any quick means of getting the money into programs and has ruled that all stimulus money will be structured under standard procurement practices. That means it will take a year or more to fund new and and approved research.
However certain institutions that already have a relationship with goverment funding will get to the trough first. Kinda reminds me of the rationale for Halliburton.

In the general society the stimulus for people to buy a new car will be about $150. The stimulus to insulate your home will be a tax credit come 2010.

We will need new laws to assist home owners with solar tech.

In short the stimulus is years away for everyone except the very well connected.

With only a quarter of the stimulus going toward Main street thus far we can expect another 2 or three attempts to avert a 15 to 20 year slump in all economies.


It looks like there is a run on citi group and Bank of America today.


btw many of our goverment agencies are still working under a cotinuing resolution.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 10:23 AM

http://www.stimuluswatch.org/project/by_state

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 10:31 AM

It looks like the senators from Maine sold out pretty cheap!

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 10:39 AM

In general I have found that what Republicans are saying is in the stimulus bill and what actually is in the bill are invariably one step beyond ingenuous.

There is a mass transit stimulus but no Vegas train.

When Lady bird Johnson tried to spruce up DC it was called a beauftification project. Today something similar is called a waste of millions on grass seed.

When Republican Committee chairman says " Lets get this straight once and for all, the goverment has never in the history of mankind ever... ever... created jobs!"

Are there really people who overlook his job or the millions of other goverment jobs, or even the invention of the computer by the US dept of Standards   and believe one word of thier empty meaningless lies?


Sometimes I am tempted to help clean up the gene pool myself, but that is exactly how "real Americans" feel everytime a new war is rolled out to bless and salute.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 11:12 AM

SRS, that's the mayors' wish list and doesn't appear to have much to do with the president's plan.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 12:26 PM

"There is a mass transit stimulus but no Vegas train."


                  Donuel - Is it true there is no Vegas train. I listened to Sean Hannity a few days ago and it seemed like he mentioned that train every 15 seconds or so.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 12:38 PM

But they almost tripled the allocation for high speed and inter-city rail to around 8 billion, I think. Nevada/Vegas will need to persuade the DOT, competing with other proposals.

Subject: RE: BS: You and the stimulus plan
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 12:52 PM

In order to do what Harry Reid wants, it would have to run from LA to Vegas. Does that qualify?