BS: American captain rescued from pirates

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 05:01 PM

Yes, you're right, Ron, but one pirate was stabbed in the hand by the crew and the crew did describe what they did before the captain offered himself in order to let the ship and crew go free.
News breaking now...
the pirate who was stabbed in the initial taking of the ship that was attacked, was about 16 years old. He left the hostage lifeboat and went to the Navy ship to ask for medical help when he got there. He just wanted out of the situation. He was not a 'leader' of the pirates, nor one trying to negotiate for ransom.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 05:27 PM

VIDEO/audio link to Navy news conference

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUY-6Fwu9X0

Vice Admiral William Gortney
press conference

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 05:35 PM

Here's a link to the general thread about Somali pirate attacks, with some excellent discussion: Click here for thread!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 05:39 PM

That video was very incomplete. I'm still looking for a transcript of the entire news conference, as more information was revealed at the end of the briefing than at the start.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Maryrrf
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 07:10 PM

I can't wait to hear the details when it all comes out. I'm just ecstatic that the rescue succeeded. What a wonderful Easter for the family!

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 08:47 PM

Shooting the hostage holders dead if the life of the hostage(s) is/are threatened is a standard SWAT tactic. Shoot to kill authority came from the White House, by the way -- the President left it up to the officers on the spot to deal with it in what they thought was best.

According the my wife, the "Washington Post" reported that all of the crew had training in how to act in a piracy situation and they did as they were trained.

As for unarmed -- well, a ship is full of potential weapons and always has been. Fire axes, butcher knives and cleavers in the galley, lengths of chain, even fire hoses and CO2 extinguishers. What is needed is the training to react to a surprise (and this wasn't: "...the pirates are closing in") and the will to use the weapons at hand.

Pirates are not in it for blood, they're in it for money. They can't sail the big ships to a port and need the crew for that, so I doubt that this will result in more pirates shooting.

First the French, now the US. I hope that the message is getting out.
"Millions for defense but not one penny for tribute," as Robert Goodloe Harper said regarding the XYZ Affair in 1798.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 09:07 PM

First India!

Subject: RE: Captain held captive by pirates
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 10:53 PM

What were the mistakes?

Subject: RE: Captain held captive by pirates
From: meself
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 11:18 PM

Maybe one was putting this in "Music"? ...

Subject: RE: Captain held captive by pirates
From: shiftybuddah
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 11:22 PM

Well, I'm actually writing a topical song about pirates because of this incident... So now its sorta related to folk music

Subject: RE: Captain held captive by pirates
From: open mike
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 11:44 PM

so that cap't is safe now?
how about a link to the news on this?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5juHtLRZ1oWZW0i4NkwPI3LWc4oPQD97H93D81

this articvle states that Somali pirates
hold more than a dozen ships at this time

http://uk.reuters.com/article/governmentFilingsNews/idUKN1249131320090413

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Alice
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 11:56 PM

Admiral Gurnon:
"While this is a great day for Massachusetts Maritime Academy and for all of our alumni and all mariners around the world, we still have more than 200 men and women held hostage in Somalia," Gurnon said.

"We should not let the spotlights, the TV cameras, the focus of the world be removed from that problem," he said.

Subject: RE: Captain held captive by pirates
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:04 AM

IMO, pirate ships should be sunk. Period. No talk, no negotiation, no bull. Ten gallons of blood in the water and voila, lotsa fish with triangular fins. YUM.

The age of piracy ended effectively with the end of the sailing era--that is, when steam came in. At that time wind ships were slower than powered ships and to keep ahead (get away), pirates would have to move to powered ships and thus touch base to fuel up on coal or oil or diesel. Touching base was the hard part. After various nations (England, Spain, etc.,) quit the pirate business, that was that. I do not understand why the various navies are reluctant to blow 'em out of the water. That holds true for ships sunk or ransacked by 'pirates' in the Caribbean or the Sea of Cortez or the coastal areas of California. Why waste money on courts. They have stated by their actions what they (pirates) think is fitting action. Well, let them have the same. Sorry, but I have NO compassion for those bastards, and that's that.

Subject: RE: Captain held captive by pirates
From: open mike
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:45 AM

yes in one of the news reports some Somalian was seeking revenge
threatening to treat othre countries the way they have been treateed..
the pirates are the agressors, and the criminals, and deserve no fair treatment, as they have unfairly targeted vessels, both commercial and personal in international waters...one story tells of a family on a boat where the father was killed and the mother and child survived.

(there are at least 2 threads on this..
perhaps they should/could be combined?)

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 01:49 AM

Well, when the report of the details came in, we were all amazed that the pirates got in so close(30 meters). Nobody here even guessed that they were that stupid. 30 meters is an easy shot. Glad they made it...a couple of guys here, expressed doubts to every account..but who cares??

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 04:13 AM

This is talked about very differently here.
The fact that the pirates have never killed a hostage is always made prominent.
We are always told that it is not the pirates' fault. They are victims of poverty. What they need is aid.
Just a different perspective.
Europeans always pay them off.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: kendall
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:02 AM

Peace, the problem, as I see it is that it is a violation of international law to carry arms unless you are a military vessel. Private security forces are illegal and expensive.
If an American ship was to dock in any foreign country they could be searched and any fire arms could be confiscated.

Some time ago there was a cruise ship that had a weapon in the form of a high pitched sound that was extremely painful to would be pirates. It is no doubt very effective and very expensive, but cheaper than millions in ransom.

Looks like another example of what happens when the law abiding citizen complies with the law banning guns and the crooks are armed to the teeth.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:19 AM

The threats of retaliation from the pirate leaders safe ashore might be expected. It may be bluster or it may be realized in more bloodshed. However, I can't help but think that these Somalis have learned new respect for our sailors and naval forces, and that may be useful in the long run.

I was quite impressed with the measured steps that were taken by our navy during this entire process, as opposed to jumping in guns blazing. It is regrettable that the pirates did not surrender before the final confrontation. They were armed and dangerous, and quite desperate when cornered.

I am pleased that the captain survived the final shootout; he is a brave man.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:23 AM

The pirate who was on the American vessel had been injured with a knife. He boarded asking for medical help and asked to stay - he had had enough. 16 years old. I would love to know his story.

can someone explain to me why pirates should get the death penalty while some pervert who tortures and murders a child gets life in prison with the possibility of parole?

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:30 AM

The root of the problem lies in poverty and the lack of any sort of Somali government besides war lords (i.e., criminal gangs). But if someone attacks you you don't ask if their rich or poor or in-between: you defend yourself.

By the way, when English pirates were taking Spanish ships the Spanish used convoys accompanied by military ships. Worked pretty well.

I wonder why that isn't being done, at least until the merchant ships are out of the danger zones?

Overall, I agree with Peace.

As for shooting them at 30 meters -- shucks, that's point-blank range. The trick is compensating for the movements of the ship and the lifeboat.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 09:43 AM

"IMO, pirate ships should be sunk. Period."

Sounds good to me...but if Kendall is right, maritime laws would need to be changed to allow ships to defend themselves. There is just too much ocean to patrol and too many pirates. The only other alternative is to invade Somalia....and we have some bad experiences with that.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:08 PM

GUEST,Keith A o Hertford--

"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute," Robert Goodloe Harper.

This maxim has served the United States well for 200 years. You guys over there can enable piracy...we fight it. That's a major difference between America and Europe that I'm proud of.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:14 PM

"Millions for defense and not a penny for tribute".

I remember the quote. Just not who said it or when. But it's relevant now.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:25 PM

Millions for defense but not one penny for tribute" is incorrectly attributed to Thomas Jefferson. Actually the quote was made by Rep. Robert Goodloe Harper, chairman of the committee on ways and means in Congress, on June 18, 1798. President John Adams had sent representatives to France to try to keep the US from going to war with that country. French and British warships had been attacking Americans ships at sea and claimed the right to seize American vessels. Three French diplomats offered to negotiate a treaty if the US would pay a bribe (tribute) to the French foreign minister, Tallyrand. This episode became known in history as the XYZ affair because the French diplomats were referred to by these initials rather than their names. The affair generated anger in the US, which prompted Rep. Harper's famous words.
http://blogs.chron.com/nickanderson/arch...

For further discussion of the wording used by Pinckney and of the quotation frequently but mistakenly attributed to Pinckney—"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute," actually said by Robert Goodloe Harper—see The Home Book of Quotations, ed. Burton Stevenson, 10th ed., p. 63 (1967) and "Notes and Queries," South Carolina Historical and Genealogical Magazine, vol. 1, pp. 100–103, 178–79 (1901).
http://www.bartleby.com/73/804.html

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:35 PM

Notes from another life:

The shot required in this instance, while at a very close range, is not the piece of cake being described. It is a shot that operators train long and hard for. It is used when one is taking out armed guards on an infiltration mission, or as in this case, in hostage situations where a bad guy has a finger on a trigger. In both cases what one is seeking to do is sever the spinal cord so that the brain doesn't fire off random electrical pulses that would cause the trigger finger to twitch and pull the trigger. Usually the best place to accomplish this is behind the ear, where you take out, or break the connection, between the brain and the rest of the body. A simple headshot is not the preferred shot in these circumstances because the brain, even when badly damaged, will send out random pulses. It takes a very skillful shooter to accomplish this. Combine this with the fact that this team fired three shots simultaneously, and did it on a rolling deck with increasingly bad weather, and you get an idea of the skill involved, even at a mere 30 yards. The Captain owes his life to the best training anywhere, and some very skilled shooters. If one of the three misses, he likely would not be here.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:36 PM

......and by the way, they were shooting through a window.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:43 PM

Mick--that's why they practice...practice...practice. It often works to get to Carnegie Hall, and it works in thwarting bad guys. Let's not carp on what might have been.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: bobad
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:45 PM

Apparently it was nightime so they were shooting in the dark, so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 01:18 PM

The lifeboat had a fibreglass dome. Infrared sensors (gunsights) would have been able to see through it.
In any case congratulations to the US Navy on a job well done!

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:32 PM

"... a ship is full of potential weapons".   Sorry, this is a half-truth. More significant is the fact that the pirates did not in fact want to kill sailors--they were after hostages and cargo, and dead sailors tend to lose their value as hostages. They may have even planned to force the sailors to sail the ship to their chosen destination.

Also more significant is the fact that Capt. Phillips offered himself as a hostage--an extremely valuable prize for the pirates. It was a big gamble. We should all be glad he won it. The WSJ editorial page says it would have not criticized Obama if Capt. Phillips had been killed in a rescue attempt.   Would anybody here?--that would be an interesting question.

But if the pirates had just wanted to take over the ship, regardless of the human cost to sailors on the ship, all the "potential weapons" would not have prevented a substantial body count of unarmed sailors. Anybody who disagrees has possibly seen "Key Largo" too many times. I'm a big Bogie fan and it's a great film--but it is a film.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 09:42 PM

Sean Hannity says that Barack Obama was in hiding all throughout the ordeal, and just stepped forward to take the credit when everything ended well.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 09:50 PM

Rig-

Yawn!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 12:13 AM

"can someone explain to me why pirates should get the death penalty while some pervert who tortures and murders a child gets life in prison with the possibility of parole?"

I can't.

I hear you, Kendall. I know that being armed (carrying a weapon) is against the law, but truth is that in certain sections of certain cities I do. The cops bust me I get my ass kicked in court. That's better imo than getting it kicked on the street and ending up dead.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 01:12 AM

Frankly, If some poor impoverished, down on his luck, third worlder, was holding me hostage, pointing a gun on me, on a boat somewhere...I think it downright welcome, if a bullet popped him..and right now!

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 01:13 AM

Amen!

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 07:45 AM

Alice-

It's OK if you wish to hi-jack this thread. After all that's what pirates do all the time. ;~)

However, I do agree that I should ask Joe to change this thread title to a more general Somali pirate title. There is some good discussion in this thread, some inane discussion as well, and a lot of history.

Meanwhile business for the Somali pirates goes on as usual with the recent capture of three ships, one large bulk cargo carrier and two Egyptian fishing boats: Click here for report

"Undeterred by U.S. and French hostage rescues that killed seven bandits, Somali pirates brazenly hijacked three more ships in the Gulf of Aden, the waterway that's become the focal point of the world's fight against piracy. The latest trophy for the pirates was the M.V. Irene E.M., a Greek-managed bulk carrier sailing from the Middle East to South Asia, said Noel Choong, who heads the International Maritime Bureau's piracy reporting center in Kuala Lumpur."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:49 AM

The next step should obviously be an Operation to rescue the 200 captives,followed by a concentrated bombardment of the Somali towns and harbours from which the pirates operate.
                   English "Pirates" attacking Spanish ships,apart from a few famous Outlaws,were, in the main (no pun intended), "Privateers", civilian-manned armed vessels licensed by the English Crown to attack,board & sink or (preferably) capture enemy ships in time of war---and England spent a Dickens of a long time at war with the Spanish (and the French).The advantage was that the crews,being non-military,could always be hanged for "piracy" after the war,IF it proved to be politically expeditious !! But it would be wrong to compare them with the thugs from Somalia.
                Well done ,America!! Now let's see something REALLY impressive, Mr Obama !!

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:57 AM

These pirates are not impoverished! Their country may well be but these bastards are living the high life and are becoming roll models.
Like a pimp or drug dealer in a ghetto driving a flashy car youth see them as an example of how to improve their own existance.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: meself
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:58 AM

"But it would be wrong to compare them with the thugs from Somalia."

The distinction is a little too subtle for this bear-of-little-brain.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: meself
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 11:27 AM

Oh, Elcid Barrett cried the town,
(How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now),
For twenty brave men, all fishermen, who
Would make for him the Antelope's crew.

God damn them all!
I was told we'd cruise the seas for American gold,
We'd fire no guns;
Shed no tears -
But I'm a broken man on a Halifax pier,
The last of Barrett's privateers.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: GUEST,MarkS (on the road)
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 08:48 PM

We need to make a slight variation to the first verse of the Marine Corps Hymn.
"From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Somalieee"
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 09:17 PM

The path toward escalation is clear, so having achieved this measure of success, it would be nice if we could achieve a real end to the piracy. Unfortunately there is no one to negotiate with.

So as nice as it is to have a 'victory', there is no way to end the piracy without a hell of a lot more surveillance and more rapid resonse.

Stay tuned, more to come.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 09:28 PM

I don't see why they don't simpy sink the mother ship, that would get rid of the scum on board, and there wouldn't be any place for the raiders to retreat to.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: meself
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:46 PM

Maybe that's where they have their 200 hostages ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Claymore
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:52 PM

I'm personally inclined to the Q-ship idea; a decoy vessal looking fat and slow, then open up with a quad fifty, and nothing but bloody springs on the bottom of a flaming boat...

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Alice
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 11:10 PM

There is more than one "mother ship", and when they are sunk, they just buy more of them.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 12:34 AM

Sink them, too. Use a chain gun and nail them at the water line.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 12:38 AM

Do you think the Prez might change the name from 'The War on Piracy' to
"The Polite Invitation to Pre-occupy the Interupters of Maritime Cruises?"

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 06:32 AM

What you want is a Nimitz-load of Douglas Skyraiders on patrol.Then,when a skipper calls in to say he is being attacked,the nearest Skyraider (as used for COIN in Vietnam) goes in and strafes the pirate skiffs with her Browning fifties.Otherwise, the only way to really solve the problem is to institute a convoy system for all mercantile vessels transiting those waters,although the idea of air-lifting small detachments of Marines by helo to US and allied ships appeals,too------surely it should not prove to be too difficult logistically,and would provide some useful live-firing exercises, no ??

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: MaineDog
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 08:45 AM

This is stupid. We have known what to do with pirates for centuries now . KEEL-HAUL THEM FIRST, ASK QUESTIONS LATER!
md