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BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 May 09 - 07:48 PM Actually in 1951 when Labour lost the General Election, it received considerably more votes than the Tories, who won. The Tories clocked up 12,660,061 votes and Labour got 13,948,883. The first-past-the-post system does stuff like that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 29 May 09 - 10:33 PM Those figures, McG, are even more telling. First-past-the-post may somehow work in practice, but there is no escaping the fact that it is a hopeless basis for representative democracy, to the point of being almost a fraud. Ringer, perhaps you are not able to understand context. I was talking about the constitution. The expenses fiddling recently exposed is a trivial sideshow by comparison, and was capped at £24k in most cases. As I argued in another thread, the main failure of the Commons was in not having the bottle to implement recommended pay awards to themselves. Instead they found a backdoor solution through the expenses racket, and it has blown up in their faces. If you add £40k to their £64k salaries (£40k taxed at 40 per cent is equivalent to £24k tax free) you finish up with a package which is comparable with secondary-school headteachers and getting nearer to the average for GPs - these being the widely accepted comparators for determining MP pay. What many MPs did was wrong-headed, but it was a drop in the bucket against the obscene levels at which, say, company directors etc have been rewarding themselves for many years. And the scale of the press-led reaction has been wildly disproportionate. So I am happy with what I said, Ringer. On top of various other constitutional issues, we now face a real prospect of no party securing an overall majority in the next election. In that case the UK will certainly move to some form of proportional representation - a system which, especially during a climate of hostility to the major political parties, will greatly strengthen the crackpot UK Independence Party and the racist British National Party among others. That, alas, is the downside of democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: GUEST,eric the viking Date: 30 May 09 - 03:39 PM I'm sorry to disagree with Peter about the level of remuneration for MP's. Not with the actual figures, but with their worth. MP's have for many years set their own levels of pay. They have given themselves good and sometimes above inflation percentage pay rises. Labour have in the last few years, I agree, cut the size down. Their pay is still much better than that of Joe public. Including their non taxed allowences and all the other perks they have it is still good. They have sat for many years setting the level of pay for public service workers who do essential jobs. Don't forget that it doesn't take a mathematical genius to work out that a 2.9% pay rise of £17,000 is a considerable amount less than a 2.9% pay rise for someone on £64,000 who has seemingly unending perks, all expense paid trips all over the place, free lunches, free travel, tax wrangles, houses all over the place, paid for by us and furnished by us. And THEN bends the system without any moral conscience whatsoever. Today the news that MSP's claimed for poppy wreaths for rememberance day on expenses shows the low level to which they will go to screw the system. What ever job I have ever taken I always knew what the pay was. There are few headteachers earning £100,000.00. Those are HT's of the biggest schools. Their level of responsibility is so much higher than MP's who are relatively unaccountable. HT's and school are rigorously inspected and suffer undeniable stresses.Doctors save lives,you and I are alive because of their work. They, MP's turn up when they wish,vote on (mostly) what they want. They get huge pensions and payoff's. They often have other jobs.Huge holidays This isn't an envious view, I took my own route in life and wouldn't wish much other.I've turned down higher salaries and promotions. MP's take the job KNOWING what they get paid. Nobody forces them into it. In a hypothetical world where certain groups of people might not exist there will always be a need for doctors, teachers, nurses, cleaners, producers and manufacturers. Dangerously, MP's do not need to fit into these groups, we can do without them.I am not advocating dictatorship. "It was wise of MPs to agree, some years ago, to link their pay to that of a Civil Service grade, a move designed to take the politics out of the issue. MP's should be beyond reproach. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: akenaton Date: 30 May 09 - 05:16 PM In the seventeen-nineties a section of the French society, thought themselves above the laws that they themselves had set and treated the rest of the populace with complete and utter contempt contempt......the rest is history, but I think it may be time to bring out the tumbrils once again. A place in the first of those vehicles, should be reserved for a man who is rapidly becoming one of the richest and most corrupt ex= politicians in the UK.......Mr Anthony Blair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 May 09 - 06:19 PM I'm still puzzled how anyone feels that £64,000 isn't a very adequate salary. I suspect a lot of the time it isn't so much that they feel they need the money as such, but more a matter of the money being seen as a marker of respect - and they feel undervalued if they aren't overpaid. Poor dears. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: DMcG Date: 31 May 09 - 03:41 AM I agree with a lot of Richard's points of 27 May 09 - 06:22 PM, but am not so sure that I think number 4 is the most important and the rest tinkering at the edges, as Ringer suggested. They all seem too tightly interwoven for that. If I had to pick a key proposition from the list, it is #2 to reduce the power of the whips. While any sort of preferment is dependant upon doing what the whips say, the system will remain outside our control. One possiblity is that that all ministerial appointments are on an acting basis only, and must be confirmed by a separate mechanism. The US approach is similar to that, but I'd like the electorate even more directly involved. I've said this before elsewhere on Mudcat but some time ago I heard a lecture from Edwina Currie on the five (I think) rules that you must follow to be a successful politician. None of them involved the electors, and I genuinely think she hadn't noticed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: s&r Date: 31 May 09 - 04:03 AM When I first voted it was illegal to put the party allegiance of the candidate on the ballot paper. The idea was, I think, that you elected a candidate of integrity who would vote honestly. I would like to see two things in politics 1. Ban parties 2. Have a system that allows a constituency to call their MP to account for his actions, with the power of expulsion if the account is unsatisfactory. Stu |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Backwoodsman Date: 31 May 09 - 11:19 AM "The expenses fiddling recently exposed is a trivial sideshow by comparison, and was capped at £24k in most cases." Oh right, only £24k - just sweetie-money really. That's alright then, carry on chaps. And yet a Tesco checkout girl who gets caught lifting a fiver from the till will get the sack and almost certainly be prosecuted. What strange double-standards some people have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Eric the Viking Date: 31 May 09 - 02:18 PM Maybe the expenses are capped at £24K but the fiddling, using to advantage some may call it, goes far in excess of the morality set for ordinary people. The criticism of the banking system and the "fat cat" system is that directors etc pay themselves huge amounts of other peoples money (Shareholder profits) make a mess or a success and then eventually walk away with a big wad. Exactly what some MP's have been doing. Thousands of pounds from profitable house selling and renting. Oh, of course nothing "illegal", especially when they set their own rules. Suppose I decide to live by my own rules and ignore the rules of others what then? If all that is left to us is to moan about it and then have our pathetic own act of defiance at the ballot box then it shows just how impotent the population have become. What else can we do? To whom can we appeal for justice? Every one of them who has shown the slightest bending of the law should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. This lot in power at the moment are still protecting each others backs. They have only got rid of deadwood so far. And then as Mr Morality himself, David Cameron, bays for the blood of others it turns out that he made some good money and could have saved us £22,000.00. So little hope there then. Brown on TV this morning was a waste of space, backpeddling. So what is left to us? Any reasonable answer accepted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Partridge Date: 31 May 09 - 02:39 PM Just wait till you find out how much MEPs can claim in expenses - they dont even have to have receipts........... scary I am at the point where I dont know who to vote for, I dont trust anyone in the government. How long have we been lied to and misled? And stupid us for allowing it to happen. i think this is a wake up call |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Eric the Viking Date: 31 May 09 - 03:19 PM Yes, MEP's they are even better ! They can make millions by all accounts. We have no answers or means of change unless............. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: akenaton Date: 31 May 09 - 03:43 PM Trouble is, no one said anything, as long as they kept handing out "cheap" money, house prices were going to keep rising for ever, and we were going to climb the ladder rung by rung. We bought it all, we are the ME ME ME generation, we even allowed them to take us into a war we KNEW was wrong. We're a shower of hypocrits and deserve the Blears....the Blairs...the Hoons ...the Straws....the Smiths...the Tories...Because we're just like them....really |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Ringer Date: 01 Jun 09 - 02:21 AM "...capped at £24k in most cases." That's £24K per year. You note, of course, that all the MPs caught out use the excuse, "the fees office said it was OK." Not one says, "I'm worth it." You're right, Peter K: I had ignored the context in which you called the Lords "a mess." Sorry. But I still disagree with most of what you say: for instance, if a company director pays himself large amounts of money and his company's shareholders do not vote him off the board next AGM then they obviously think he's worth it, so who are you to call his salary "obscene?" Directors are probably more accountable than MPs, and shareholders look to maximise their returns. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: DMcG Date: 01 Jun 09 - 02:25 AM That's not entirely fair, akenaton. There been quite a lot of people outside the political parties calling for various reforms such as a written constitution, better separation of powers etc for a LONG time. For example, Charter 88. I would agree though that the number of members of groups like that is, quite literally, negligable as far as the career politicians are concerned. It is the unity in the general public over this expenses scandal that has made the topic of reform hot. Even so I think our chances of getting a real reform rather than just publishing expenses is slim. For example, I have come up with a scheme where all expenses are published and 'reasonable', no pay rise is needed but the MPs could still milk the system for tens of thousands. No, I'm not going to explain how to do it - they will manage it themselves! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Eric the Viking Date: 01 Jun 09 - 11:41 AM Akenaton, please do not include me in the "we". I and many many others never bought into the Thatcherite greed culture. I didn't take the management route for a higher salary though I was under pressure to do so. I didn't get mortgage upon mortgage up to the hilt, borrowing much more than I could afford to pay back. I wrote to my MP about the war, I have been on peaceful protests and continue to donate to charities when ever I can. There were many warnings, many stood in opposition and many never bought the hype. It didn't include most people I would suggest, but it certainly was pushed and hyped up as the answer. A million quiet voices and ordinary struggling lives never seem to reach the heights of a few hundred greedy and loud individuals. Just remember that at the same time MP's and government were moralising at us peasents to tighten our belts, grass up a benefits cheat,fill in our tax returns or else! Means testing hundreds of people for student support or for benefits, closing small and essential post offices, raising higher and higher the level of taxation and fuel duty, removing the right to supported further and higher education for the lower paid, putting students into thousands of pounds of debt, bragging that they had given pensioners another 10p a week, hearing of fuel poverty, ignoring the numbers of old and frail who die in winter etc etc.And don't forget not giving our service personel correct equipment. Just remember that they were charging US for kitkats, toilet seats, chocolate father christmases, making thousands on shady property deals, having free trips to anywhere there was a free anything and better, plasma TV's, duck houses, avoiding taxes, lying, cheating and milking us for all they could. They were claiming for money spent on wreaths of poppies, they were claiming on the trivial and downright obscene. If we, the population did anything wrong...it was to trust them !! Never again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: vectis Date: 01 Jun 09 - 12:09 PM The thieving, fiddling barstewards should be under arrest for theft, fraud, false accounting and any other charge that might have a chance of sticking. You or I would be if we had done as they did. And while I am on the bandwaggon... Why do we need so many of the buggers? Surely one per county and one for each major city shopuld be enough. Far cheaper to run and maybe they would actually have a chance of getting something useful done instead of spending so much time slagging each other off in the House. As to the Lords. Sorry but I actually liked the thought of learned judges, clerics and aristos trying to balance the self seeking rabble in the lower house. They actually used to be able to put a brake on the Commons but this new lot seem to just kowtow to them. Rant over |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Jun 09 - 06:25 PM We bought it all, No "we" didn't. A lot of people did. A lot of people didn't. The papers do this all the time - use "we" as if it meant everyone out there in the real world, when it really means mean the writer and the people he or she runs into around the office and around the dinner party circuit. ............................................. The problem with cutting down the numbers in the Commons would be that, unless they change a few other bits to the system, it would make some things even worse - which is probably why so many people in the public opinion industry are suggesting it. Under the Westminster system, ordinary MPs live in the hope of being given jobs as ministers or shadow ministers etc, jobs that put them in the pocket of their party leaders. Cut down the number of people in the Commons, while keeping the same number of jobs for the boys (and girls occasionally), and the "payroll vote" would be massively increased in proportion. There'd be hardly any backbenchers left. There's supposed to be a rule to stop rulers buying people's loyalty that way - any MP accepting "an office of profit under the Crown" automatically ceases to be an MP. It's a rule used in order to formally allow MPs to resign - they accept a notional job such as "Steward of the Chiltern Hundreds", which counts as "an office of profit", and bingo, they are out as MPs. But perversely the jobs given out by the government to its supporters do not count as "offices of profit under the Crown", though that is just what they are, sinc ethe government exercises all the powers that lie with "the Crown". Change that rule and it would shake up the whole system, and greatly reduce the power of governments to control the House of Commons. One idea would be that anyone accepting a paid government or opposition job should automatically cease to be an MP, and move over the House of Lords for so long as they hold the job, with a by-election to replace them in the Commons. But I somehow don't think they'd much like that one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: akenaton Date: 02 Jun 09 - 11:06 AM Well... I apologise to McGrath and Eric....There were indeed people who didn't "buy into" Blairism/Thatcherism............But they were all Green Luddite Anarchists....just like me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Jun 09 - 02:21 PM There's more of us around than some people reckon... And I wasn't implying that aken was on the media dinner-party circuit. Just that the "we" mannerism spread out from there, and becomes too easy to echo. (You know the way they go on about stuff like clothes and books and films and food, and ideas, suggesting by implication that everyone is following their obscure little fashion agenda.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: akenaton Date: 02 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM Anyway..."democracy" doesn't work, the majority are too easily manipulated, so why bring it back at all? Now that the system has come to the inevitable end, why not ditch the lot and go for something different.....or are we fated to serve the capitalist cycle for ever? The problem McGrath, is the very people you mention...good folks with good intentions, who think some way, some day, this economic and social system can be made fair and provide happiness........WRONG, this system and the fake democracy which supports it depends on unfairness, greed and envy to prosper. All this financial regulation, parliamentary reform bullshit will last as long as the system is down, when its back up and running by throwing millions of young people on the scrapheap, cutting services etc....it wont be long till we see the snouts back in the trough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: The Barden of England Date: 02 Jun 09 - 05:21 PM You can see what they think of us I believe when they cry out 'It's affecting my health' or 'I want to spend more time with my family'. Do you know that's what I, and I suspect so many others have been saying for years. They just don't see, nor know how we all suffer in just the same way. When you've left school, gone to Uni, taken a year or so travelling and then gone into politics, how the hell do you know how MOST people live? How the hell do they believe that 'giving' a pensioner another £1 per week will make him/her grateful? Or taking a penny off the income tax is a 'splendid' way make people happy? They just don't get it. Until we are governed by concensus politics (not first past the post), we will get what we deserve. Our masters, for that's exactly what they are, are not changing now, nor will they. They'll flannel, waffle and tinker, but woe betide anything that may ACTUALLY clean up our system. That's going to be a complete No No - just wait and see. I really do hope I'm wrong, but I sure as hell ain't holding my breath. John Barden |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Richard Bridge Date: 02 Jun 09 - 07:23 PM Alas John there is no consensus. Scratch the surface even of most folkies and you find consumerists and capitalists. Look at Pig's Ear over the weekend. Most people there were eating the pub meals at £8 per head upwards. Ake is right that revolution is necessary, but the problem has long been to find a trustworthy revolutionary. Cuba did well by its people for a long time, despite US capitalist aggression, but will it now last? Remember 1984 (the book)? Revolutions exchange the middle class for the ruling class, and the working class remains dispossessed and opressed. This applies of course to both workers by hand and workers by brain (look inside the university system: I know sessional lecturers who after taking into account preparation time, travelling time and marking time are working for under minimum wage - the direct consequence of the application of Thatcherite principles to education). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 02 Jun 09 - 10:46 PM ""Cuba did well by its people for a long time, despite US capitalist aggression, but will it now last?"" You know Richard, for an intelligent and well educated man, you DO come out with some amazingly inane comments. Have you ever BEEN to Cuba? I HAVE! About 20 years ago, and if Cuba has done well by its people it's NOT visible at street level. No obesity there, except among the ruling clique which surrounds the not so benevolent dictator. Nobody else has enough food to get overweight, and that ain't all. Their accommodation would, in this country raise the eyebrows of the RSPCA if we kept pigs in it. You talk about revolution as if it is a universal panacea, when in point of fact no revolution in history has ever improved the lot of the common people. In Castro's Cuba, we couldn't even be having this conversation. No member of the proletariat has access to the internet, and if they did, they couldn't possibly afford a computer. Instead of carping on about destroying the system we have, it MIGHT be smart to look for ways of making it work to our advantage, by controlling what our representatives can or cannot do. For the first time in MY lifetime we have a situation where the population is UNITED in its anger and disgust, and we actually have the politicians on the run. They're jumping ship in droves, and WE CONTROL THE SELECTION OF THEIR REPLACEMENTS! NOW is the time for us to say what we require of them, and make it clear that we will NOT hesitate to SACK the bastards if they don't comply TO THE LETTER, with the rules WE set. Now, John B, knowing that we have very different political views, asked me in private to comment here, and I have been reading posts, and mulling over what I wanted to say. Having seen the general tenor of opinion here, with most wanting to chuck the baby out with the bathwater, get rid of the method of government we have laboriously constructed over a thousand years, and the evolution of which has cost countless lives, and great sacrifice, I was very tempted to say "It's NOT worth the bother. Just go ahead pissing and moaning while the likes of Nick Griffin and his Nazi thugs set up the revolution you want. It won't bother me because I'll be on an early boat out of here". Then I thought "NO! I'll say my bloody piece, and maybe, just maybe, somebody might think there's some sense in it". So here goes. 1. YOU CANNOT ESCAPE POLITICAL PARTIES!, This is, or should be, self evident. You can call them by other names, but all government involves committee action at some level, and this ALWAYS leads the the formation of cliques with a common agenda. Even Germany, under Hitler's dictatorship, had numerous factions vying for the approval, and patronage of the Fuhrer. So, there is simply no point in trying to do away with the party system. A two party system is insufficient, as all the opposition has to do is wait for their turn. Three or more parties is better, providing you weed out the more ridiculous ones, and bring a little common sense to the elections. PLEASE, nobody try to tell me that it would be possible to have a government of independent MPs. You could elect them, but, within a week they would be forming groups with common agendas, just to get anything done. And what would you call those groups? PARTIES, that's what. 2. PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION HAS ITS PROBLEMS! Most people want to be able to contact somebody in government who, at least nominally, represents the local people. If you don't elect a local MP, who represents YOU? The constituency system is the one that the majority of people in this country feel comfortable with. Also, in spite of the fact that the Parties WOULD be more fairly represented in Parliament, the end result is unchanged. You would still have one party able to push through its agenda, or if not, a hung parliament which could not govern effectively (Imagine a government where, say, the BNP held the balance, and under PR, you WOULD have BNP members). Let's face it, the constituency system CAN be made to work properly, if the right rules, checks, and balances are put in place. Once you institute a system of independent judicial oversight, (and I would want that to include, not just expenses, but the whole financial situation of the government including annual audit and publication of a National Balance Sheet showing where every penny of OUR money was spent), combined with the right of recall by constituents in cases of misdemeanour, the politicians would actually be working for US. 3. Given that parties ARE inevitable, and that first past the post CAN be made to work, there is NO logic in destroying the existing system. I am making a non partisan comment here. We should, IMHO, continue to support a party as if the expenses mess had never occurred. Those of us who had a fixed preference should continue as before. Those who were floating voters, should think very carefully about the likely consequences of NOT voting. We absolutely CANNOT afford to destroy ANY of our three major parties. It is my belief that everyone should make careful use of his/her vote. People died to win us that right. We have a golden oportunity to bring our representatives to heel, and force upon them the realisation that WE ARE THEIR MASTERS!, and let them know we are WATCHING THEM. For God's sake, let's stop moaning and start fixing our system. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Richard Bridge Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:21 AM My late father - a rabid capitalist-industrialist - went to Cuba and returned very impressed with the health system. I have friends who go there every year, sometimes twice a year, and return every year unfavourably comparing our health system to the Cuban one. You make the mistake, Don, of elevating consumer hardware to a religion. There is some, however, of what you write above with which I can agree. If we are to make the best (or least worst) of our present system then we need to be wary of kneejerk reactions tothe expenses muddle - however, although Bob Marshall-Andrews is a large claimer I have read his arguments that the expenses of his actual office were proper, and I think he is right. Proper office expenses are one thing. Moat maintenance is another. I shall certainly be voting. Everyone should. I was half minded to vote Green in the Euro-erection, but by way of comparison I always get a reply from the local Labour Party to my emails, and I also always get a reply from the ward councillors who are conservatives. Reply from the Greens to my questions about their transport and other policies came there none. Shame really since that Green woman is not bad - anyone hated by the hard-core Eurocrats and the Eurobusiness lobby cannot be all bad. It is not, however, I think, true to say that no revolution has improved the lot of the common populace. It took a long time for Cromwell's revolution to bear fruit, but it was necessary to overcome the Carolinian attempts to destroy the gradual process before then towards the beginnings of a separation of powers. Materially, the current population of the US are very likely better off as a result of their revolution, and the principles of their constitution are widely admired despite pork-barrel lobbying. Surely the French are better off today as a result of their revolution, although it may have gone a bit too far at the time. You surely would say that the Polish revolution was beneficial. Romania? Your suggestion that we control the selection of MPs is only half true. We do not control the selection of candidates, and there is no obvious route for us to come to do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Bryn Pugh Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:38 AM This is off-thread, but I think worth a mention. There is a wonderful grafitto on the wall in the Student Union bogs : 'I've half a mind to vote BNP. That's all I'd need'. Res ipsa loquitur, if you ask me [and I know you didn't :-)]. PS Well impressed with the arguments in the previous two posts - Richard and Don. Congrats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: The Barden of England Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:31 AM Don - I don't believe that PR would necessarily give the BNP any power. Sure it would give them seats, but what other party in their right mind would get into bed with them just for power? What party leader could even suggest it? In a democracy we sure as hell should expect some of the population to have a say (remember Speakers Corner) however nasty their political views; the problem is we've not had a proper say for 3 generations or more, for the 2 party system is nothing but a cover up for a one party system leading to the apathy which leads many people not to vote. You often hear it - 'they're all the same' and this latest debacle really only goes to prove it. On your point about Cuba, I don't think they were any better under Batista, and certainly had a much lower life expectancy. And an embargo by the USA doesn't help much either. The US trades with China, which to my mind is a much worse case than Cuba, but then China is thousands of miles away rather than 90. John Barden |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:09 AM ""Don - I don't believe that PR would necessarily give the BNP any power. Sure it would give them seats, but what other party in their right mind would get into bed with them just for power? What party leader could even suggest it?"" Given that when you tot up percentages of the total vote, there is normally only the tiniest difference between Labour (old or new) and the Conservatives, a difference which is normally occupied by Lib/Dems, it is not so far fetched to suppose that a situation might arise in an important free (conscience) vote, where a few BNP members could decide the issue. Given the obscene racist policies of those thugs and criminals, I woul not want to take even a one in a million chance of that happening. Would You? Richard, many of us belong to the local parties and can make our position clear on selection. Those who do not belong, could join, or simply write to let them know that, unless the VOTERS get some say in choosing candidates, the party can kiss the VOTES goodbye. I think they would prefer to go to the polls with our choice, rather than go there with NO hope. In the current climate of frustration and anger, I believe we could, and we SHOULD, bulldoze OUR requirements through. Alternatively, of course we could just say "What's the use! I can't make a difference!", and let God knows what kind of rabble represent us. Haven't we had ENOUGH of that with the present lot? Don T. P.S. I have communicated my views to both the local Conservative Party, and the local Labour Party, Lib Dems too. I can't be arsed to bother with the losers and loonies. I'm waiting to see which party CARES about getting my vote. As my current MP (New Labour) has enjoyed a large majority, I suspect HE won't care. I know the Tories WILL. And I must confess I'm curious about the Lib/Dem response. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: The Barden of England Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:59 AM I honestly can't see that situation Don, it's not all about the BNP either as there are the Greens and a few others too. It works elsewhere in Europe, so why not here? I'm totally fed up with our 1 party politics, as I see no difference in the two that have run things for the last 64 years. It's a cosy situation, and I don't see them changing it in any measure as it suits them just fine. John Barden |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: bubblyrat Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:08 AM "What's the point of voting?? They're all as bad as each other. " How many times have I heard that,in the last 50 years or so? And I expect to continue to hear it,as long as voting is NOT compulsory !! How can we EVER have a "democratically" elected government if up to,or even more than,fifty percent of the electorate can't be persuaded to turn out and register,even if it's only for the MRLP ? ANY election with a turn-out of less than 95% of the Electorate should be declared invalid,and the whole thing repeated until there IS a result. This country is on the slippery slope to disaster,and in dire peril of handing victory to extremists like the BNP on a plate.The public are ,understandably,seething with anger over the recent MP's expenses scandal,and therefore in danger of "teaching this lot a lesson" by doing something that they might later have cause to regret. We shall see !! Incidentally,Richard, I love the idea of a "Hose of Lords " !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: GUEST,DMG (without cookie) Date: 03 Jun 09 - 11:17 AM There are some differences between "the formation of cliques with a common agenda" and parties. Two important ones are that the parties have relatively fixed membership and are few in number, whereas cliques are both more numerous and more fluid - you still get cliques within parties at the moment, for instance, and for certain matters even across parties. However, the most important difference is that in our current system the party has a near-monopolistic control on whether an MP gets on committees, becomes a minister, is reselected for the next election; in short it has a huge say in the MPs future. Cliques can do that to some extent, of course, but as long as there are a goodly number they will compete and none will have the monopoly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Richard Bridge Date: 03 Jun 09 - 11:27 AM Compulsory voting is not democratic. Not unless there is "none of the above" on the paper - or a "yes" box and a "no" with "noes" getting deducted from "yesses". I was much tempted by the greens this year (as you can guess by my "open letter" thread) but the fact they totally ignored my direct email to them suggests to me that their canvassing material is even less connected to the reality than other parties. So I guess it'll be Labour again, as I don't think the Scargill mob have any chance of enough votes to register on the PR scale. So Labour will be as good a "no to the BNP" vote as any, and better than some. As for Cuba, pre-Castro over 75% of the land was controlled by foreign corporations, over 600,000 islanders were without any prospect of (lawfully) earning money, and what economy there was was run by the Mafia. Fair play to Castro, when land was nationalised, his family's holdings were nationalised too. Do take a hose to the party BR. I think you will find those assembled less amused. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: The Barden of England Date: 03 Jun 09 - 11:47 AM I went for the Lib/Dems for being somewhat more socialist that New Labour, they're on my wavelength. The bloody Tories took control of Maidstone and I now have to pay £25 for a visitors permit if someone is visiting me. The lying bastards said it was needed as the streets around the centre of the town were being used during the day by people visiting the town centre and left no room for local people, which is an out and out lie as you could park an entire fleet of busses in my street during the day, the problem comes at night, so what do they do? Not only charge us £25 for a visitors pass, but another £25 for my own one. The £25 for mine I don't object to, but previously if you had an 'N' pass you could park in 'N1 or N2 or N3', but no longer - they've stopped that even though there was a huge public outcry against it. They then admitted that the council run car parks in the centre of town are £100,000 in the red and they needed to recoup some of that. Now, where do all the Conservative councillors live? Why outside of the affected areas. We are effectively paying a Coucil Tax surcharge of 16.9% over other Maidstone Borough council tax payers. So much for the Tories for me. That's what you get Don! John Barden |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: PaulF Date: 03 Jun 09 - 12:46 PM Funny thing democracy, both UK and try to force it on other countries to whom it is a foreign concept, but neither of them practise it themselves. Paul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: PaulF Date: 03 Jun 09 - 12:47 PM UK and USA that should say |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: GUEST Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:21 AM I've just re-read your opening post again, Barden of England. Couple of points: 1) Your thread-title is "Bring back democracy..." The implication is that the UK once had democracy but has it no longer. Comments? 2) I don't think that the way we elect our representatives is at fault -- the problem is with the representatives we elect. Sure, you can argue that this or that PR method would be "better" or that the Lords should be elected, but nothing will improve things until we have MPs of integrity rather than those seeking to be first at the trough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: GUEST,Ringer-who's-lost-his-cookie-AGAIN Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:22 AM Damn. The above is from me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: The Barden of England Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:24 AM You're right 'Ringer'. It's debateable that we've ever had a true democracy, but then again it wasn't that long ago that if you were a woman, or didn't own property, you weren't allowed to vote either. So things have changed, and I believe they should do again. PR could well bring us MPs with integrity, and something really must be done to get rid of this (essentially) one party system. Have you any ideas? John Barden |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Ringer Date: 04 Jun 09 - 01:15 PM Why do you think that "PR could well bring us MPs with integrity?" I seriously doubt it, but would like to hear your arguments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: DMcG Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:00 PM Here's an idea that has no chance of being implemented! Ministeral appointments to be confirmed using a panel of 120 people selected using the existing jury selection systems. If a nomination is not confirmed the nominee is barred from any ministeral post for the rest of the session ,but there are two more attempts, then the PM becomes barred in turn and Parliament as a whole must propose a new PM to a similar panel. If the new PM is not confirmed it triggers a full election. There are various refinements, but there is the core idea to be shot down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: The Barden of England Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:10 PM Ringer - The reason I say that it may well bring us MPs with integrity is that not one party will end up with a stonking great majority, something we have suffered from for almost the last 30 years - a generation by any measure. When MPs are not 'whipped' to within an inch of their seats (for look what's happening now with 'resignations' and de-selection, as if that matters to me!) they have to start thinking about what they're there for. Will they ever be able to get away with the scandalous behaviour that some of them have exhibited? They were just fodder, and PR should stop that in its tracks. It will probably mean some years of political instability, but in my mind that is a small price to pay for the benefits to come. Now, I just wonder what your take is on this? John Barden |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 04 Jun 09 - 06:29 PM John, you should be able to remember the period from about 56 to 70, during which the Italians went through a similar period of political turbulence. The standing joke of the time was "Hi there, who is prime minister THIS week?" The Mafia wound up running the country, and it took years of assassinations and terrorism to clean them out. Do we really want that? Also, whenever your Lib/Dems have had the chance to make a difference during a hung parliament (at least three times in MY lifetime), instead of cherry picking the best ideas from both sides, and making them reality, what did they do? They rubber stamped Labour Party decisions, good or bad (and plenty WERE very bad). Do we want THAT again, Gordon Brown propped up by Nick Clegg? I don't think so. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:03 PM "Proportional representation" tends to be used for a whole range of different systems of voting, which would have different consequences. (And some of them, such as the single transferable vote shouldn't properly be given that name). Opponents of electoral reform tend to point to the systems which have major disadvantages, and ignore the ones that do not. And at the same time they brush aside the very major flaws in the first-past-the-post system. One major flaw with the existing system is that it can entail giving a job for life to some pretty shady characters, because it's impossible to vote against an individual MP without also voting against the party that is unfortunate enough to be lumbered with him or her. Another is that people feel compelled to vote for people and parties which they would prefer not to in order to keep out people and parties they like even less. And another is that in many/most constituencies the margins between candidates are so wide that there is no realistic likelihood of the sitting member losing, so there is no real point in voting. All those are flaws which could be reduced or even eliminated with a better voting system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Richard Bridge Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:55 PM It is certainly true that a system with no constituency boundaries would reduce the inherent gerrymander in setting constituency boundaries. Am I not right that in every election since 1945 more votes were cast for a party or parties other than the winning party? The delays in DMcG's system would render it unworkable - as indeed is not likely to be demonstrated over the coming weekend. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: The Barden of England Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:53 AM I do remember that time Don, but that was Italy and not here. They still have the PR system by the way, so what about mentioning 1970 to 2009? I also remember the Ted Heath years and 3 day weeks, The Labour winter of discontent, and yes the Liberals were in bed with them and should have done much better than they did, but at least there was mostly full employment. I also remember the Thatcher years and what that did to my pension prospects. The Unions needed reigning in without a doubt, but if you want to mention places like Italy, then why not places like France and Germany? Germany for example has taken on and integrate what was the basket case of East Germany. Would this country have been able to do that? Those 3 countries have the Euro by the way - done them great harm hasn't it. Our politicians will never let go of the Pound, because without it they lose some of the power they hold, and of course I trust them with that power - not. John Barden |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: GUEST,DMcG at work Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:22 AM Thanks for that comment, Richard. In some ways the system I suggested is not that different to the US system, where some Presidential appointments have to be confirmed by the Senate (?); I assumed that the appointments would be effective on an acting basis where necessary before the formal confirmation, but I accept this could lead to the parties allowing long delays between acting appointment and confirmation, so it would need some mechanism to prevent that. My main objections to my own idea are twofold: (a) how do we ensure anyone is ever confirmed, because almost by definition the majority of the population does not want that party in power and (b) how could we stop the media having undue influence on the selection panel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: Ringer Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:46 AM Barden of England: I refer to your post Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:10 PM Aren't you confusing PR and whipping? I should have thought that if PR yielded small or no majorities then whipping would be more prevalent, not less so. If a party has a majority of 50 or so (as now) a few MPs voting against the whip makes no difference at all, but if the majority were small then those few MPs could well lose the government's vote. It seems to me that constitutional reform is being used by the unscrupulous as a smokescreen to hide the recent disclosures of just how deceitful MPs are. But I repeat: it's not a better method of electing MPs that's needed, but better MPs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: The Sandman Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:19 AM there is an important difference between the Labour and the Conservative party:foreign policy towards the unification of Ireland. the Conservative party was until recently Conservative and Unionist party. investigate the Conservatives recent decisions in running candidates in Ulster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: The Sandman Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:23 AM Site last updated 5th June 2009 New_euro_election Voting For Change Ahead of the European Election on Thursday, Leader of the Ulster Unionist Party Sir Reg Empey and Leader of the Conservative Party David Cameron have issued the following joint statement. "Change is needed across the United Kingdom. Gordon Brown's Government has taken the UK to the brink of bankruptcy, and now we have a Parliament that has lost the trust of the people. Public confidence in our institutions and in our politicians is at rock bottom. David Cameron said last week that "big change and a new politics is exactly what people can expect from a new Conservative government…with people in control of the things that matter to them, a country where the political system is open and trustworthy and where power is distributed from the political elite to the man and woman in the street." We want the people of Northern Ireland to be part of this process of change and new politics. As citizens of the United Kingdom they should have the same political and Parliamentary standards as their fellow citizens in England, Scotland and Wales. The Ulster Unionist Party and Conservative Party, standing together as 'Conservatives and Unionists,' have already taken the first important step towards change and new politics. We have jointly endorsed Jim Nicholson as our candidate for the European Parliament. [imo]if you believe in the peaceful unification of Ireland ,this is a reason not to vote Conservative,because you are in effect voting unionist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: manitas_at_work Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:35 AM I've got a sense of deja vu about this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Bring back Democracy to the UK From: The Sandman Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:48 AM 100. |
