BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 01:39 AM

Excellent post, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 03:50 AM

Joe Offer:"....It's time to stop all this blame-laying, punish those who are actually criminals, and find a SOLUTION to the problem."

Absolutely!!!

I don't know exactly what 'restitution' can be given to the victims, but somehow, it STARTS with acknowledging that a wrong had been committed, and then dealing with the molester. I know that, because of the embarrassment and bad press that the Church, as a whole gets, because of such acts, they prefer to keep things 'in house'. However, a solution would have to be so severe to the perpetrators, complete with instant disclosure to their superiors first, that they would be discouraged from even thinking about doing it! Those concealing it who are higher, because of 'chain of command', should document that they made the situation known to the hierarchy, upon their discovery, and to the highest up it goes, should be the one ultimately accountable for any action, or cover up...both in the church, and in the government. By law, to know about a felony, and conceal it, is aiding and abetting, and that person can be charged with conspiracy. This goes for government officials, as well! So all those in the government, who knew about this, and concealed it, technically are also guilty of the same crime...and should be criminally charged!

Just a thought on the matter....
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 04:50 AM

"It's time to stop all this blame-laying, punish those who are actually criminals,"
A little like shutting the stable door, don't you think Joe?
The church was dragged kicking and screaming into the limelight and eventually co-operated with the enquiries, not in the spirit of jutice and honesty but as an act of damage limitation.
This has been going on for at least half a century, and had it not been exposed in the way that it has, would have continued.
I wonder - if the abuse had been committed by teachers, social workers, scout and guide leaders... or any group of people who had been entrusted with the care of children, would you all be as ready to sort out the "few bad apples", forgive and move on?
If it had been your child or grandchild who had come home saying they had been raped or interefered with, or had had physical (often permanent) damage inflicted on them, would you be as ready to move on - or would you want to know how those entrusted with the child's welfare allowed it to happen and ascertain that it never happened again?
Would you be happy to let children, yours or anybodys, continue to be under the influence of an organisation which perpetrated, facilitated and covered up systematic widespread and long-term abuses?
Shouldn't the buck have stopped with the church as a whole or was/is it a special case?
We are not just looking at a handful (or even a large number) of rogue priests and nuns, but at institutional abuse on a large scale - physical, mental, and a complete betrayal of trust over a very long period.
In a grim sort of way part of the problem has been solved; the church will never be trusted again and it will never again occupy the position of power over the minds and bodies of the population it once did.
It is still fighting to maintain its influence over childrens' education - if there is any justice in the world, that will disappear in the near future.
Any good that the church might have done disappeared in the wash of the abuse revelations.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 04:53 AM

I have to say that I have a hard time believing in the helplessness of the poor lay people in the face of the powerful and oppressive laity. If a child is abused or molested, why don't his parents speak out? If Father So-and-So is a bastard, why not treat him like the bastard he is?

I have an example of this Joe. Some years ago a PP in Donegal was arrested for a long spate of terrible abuse. A woman I know grew up in his parish. She told me the whole parish KNEW all along what happened to the children who were brought to the Parochial house every week. Nobody dared speak out for all those years, it was the way it was.

And the thing about it all, she was shocked, really shocked, when the news of the man's arrest made the newspapers. Shocked because a priest, her Parish Priest (before she moved to Clare) was arrested and that someone had spoken out against him.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 05:39 AM

Going slighty off course, but I agree with Bonnie Shaljean`s reference to Frank O` Connor books worth the trouble to track down, a brilliant writer.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: caitlin rua
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 05:59 AM

Wonderful post Joe.   

But I do have to answer one point. You ask

> If a child is abused or molested, why don't his parents speak out? If Father So-and-So is a bastard, why not treat him like the bastard he is?

I know you don't mean it that way, but this is so off the mark as to be insulting. Please don't dismiss our real injustices with simplistic "solution"-questions that just don't apply to our situation.

People in Ireland didn't question the Church. Society was rigidly bound by one religion, backed up by the government, and if you made trouble you faced serious social consequences, not to mention (as you were told) spiritual ones. It was a culture of conformity, denial, and maintaining appearances at all costs. I can't even begin to do it justice in a blog post because it's so complex, with many strata of underlying reasons built up over time. But the information is out there for anyone who wants to make the effort to learn about them. Without this understanding, one is not in a position to stand in judgment on people living in another country in another time.

There were no means of redress available, no place else to go, no social service to report to. Society, Church and government were interlocked in a powerful triumvirate in a way that people living outside cannot appreciate. There were simply not the alternatives available to anyone who made trouble for the ruling stratum.

"Treat him like the bastard he is?" HOW? How do you "treat" the most powerful member in your community like anything? He's the one who treats you. Don't expect any back-up from your neighbours. You'll just find yourself a pariah. Oh, and you were putting your soul in peril. Don't like your local priest? Tough - he's the only one around.

That is, when the abuse was even known about. It happened in secrecy, kids were emotionally blackmailed into keeping quiet about it - it was only your word against theirs and They were stronger than you. Time after time you read or hear now-grown survivors say that when they did complain to their parents, they were simply punished for lying. Denial runs very, very deep here. It was a way of coping. It still is.

Apart from that one point, I think your post is excellent and moving. Of course it's time to move on, but you have to remember that here a lot of this stuff is still coming out. The memoirs and survivor accounts have only surfaced recently and I don't think they're finished.

These cannot be moved on FROM until they've had their fair hearing. And that's still in the process of happening.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 06:06 AM

Footnote to above:
There is to be a meeting tomorrow in The Vatican between Pope Benedict, Cardinal Seán Brady and Archbishop Diarmuid Martin - subject "How the Catholic Church should deal with the damage caused by the child abuse scandal. I wonder if anybody finds this offensive as I do?
Leopards... spots!
"I have to say that I have a hard time believing in the helplessness of the poor lay people....."
Believe it Joe:
There is a remarkable description by a policeman who reported a case of abuse which had been reported to him by a distraught mother, to a bishop.
The bishop attempted to pass it off with a 'queer' joke and only agreed to even discuss it (with a policeman, remember) when the he threatened to take that matter further and make it official. The bishop finally agreed "to look into the matter!!!"
If that was how the subject was treated when reported to the police - what chance did the man or woman in the street stand?
A further thought - If, as has been suggested here and pretty generally elsewhere, those abused are quite likely to become abusers, the church did not only abuse past generations, but future ones as well.
The abuse has not been stopped, just brought to public attention.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: mg
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 12:11 PM

No..I don't think t he abusing priests thought God wanted them to abuse children. I think they did think He wanted them to make sure that the legacy of sexual repression was passed on..and that He wanted them to avoid contact with women at all costs because that was a terrible sin (including when married by the way unless you actively desired children each and every time, in spite of the fact that another child could kill the mother, leave 12 orphans etc..and this is not 1800s Ireland..this is 1960s Washington USA). This was the basis of our religious teaching. No sex and reproduce until dead. Somehow. Kill the mother in childbirth and the father from overwork in dangerous occupations.

Child abuse was what seeped out of that tradition. It is a by-product. The tradition is based on theology..and based on exactly four words in the Bible..be fruitful and multiply..no matter the cost to society, families, individuals, the environment etc. And I bet very very many of them thought they were being successful in avoiding the temptations of women. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 02:09 PM

"It's time to stop all this blame-laying, punish those who are actually criminals"

Absolutely right, Joe, but at the same time I think the criminal part goes well beyond the abusers themselves and it's well worth trying to establish how and why this stuff was allowed to happen. Surely that is the only hope of preventing it? It's a much bigger and longer problem than is currently being portrayed, and it's not immediately apparent that that is being acknowledged. It seems to be generally known that about a third of victims go on to be abusers themselves, and one thing the Murphy report seems to illustrate is that the number of actual complaints fell a long way short of the number of admitted abuses. A lot kept quiet about it and it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that most of the potential future abusers are among that number. They need to be found, and they need help before the same rot sets in, although given the time scale of the report it will be too late for some.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 02:15 PM

"They need to be found, and they need help....."
With a bit of luck the prison they (should) end up in will have good psychiatric unit.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 02:38 PM

Having read this post, and had a think, (although the gravity of the situation makes you wish you couldn't think about it...)

What hope is there when some of the people even in this thread think they have the answers, and that the answer is found in their damned bible? I assume it the Pilot parable of washing your hands that gives this absurd view of it being nothing to to do with Christians.

If I were a Christian, the first thing I would want is these people being excommunicated,

Then the law to take it's course.

Including anybody, even the big boss in Rome, to be investigated for knowingly harbouring criminals and perverting (ironic term eh?) the course of justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 02:38 PM

I have to say that I have a hard time believing in the helplessness of the poor lay people in the face of the powerful and oppressive clergy. If a child is abused or molested, why don't his parents speak out?

Sorry, Joe, but you really have no sense of the reality of the Catholic church in 20 C. Ireland. None at all...

I continue to maintain that, at this point, the emphasis needs to be on the hierarchy - not on the abusers. The latter are slowly being dealt with and conditions (including a generation of parents who are much less likely to take clerics at face value) put in place to reduce the risk of further incidents - only a fool would expect that it can be prevented completely. The bishops, however, continue to fail to acknowledge their motivation in covering up abuse cases. To me, this represents a moral bankruptcy which can only lead on to further abuse of POWER by a caste which cannot acknowledge its own wrongdoing.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 03:18 PM

In fairness, the latest statement by the Irish Bishops Conference (just released) goes some way to acknowledging their own wrongdoing.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 03:23 PM

"Certain individuals in leadership positions have violated those teachings - does that means that I am bound by conscience to abandon MY religious beliefs and hand over MY church to the transgressors? That's absurd! Send them to prison if they committed crimes, but don't tell me I have to give them my church."

I didn't, Joe. I said I found it 'very hard to see how' (etc.). Not being a Catholic, I can only see it from that point of view. You're a Catholic and obviously see it from a different angle. Do what you think is right - beyond that I'm not telling you what you have to do; I have no right to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 05:01 PM

The problem is widespread throughout society;, a hockey coach was charged here yesterday, the most recent in a long line of abuse of young by people in charge of them.

"No significant curative treatment for pedophilia has yet been found." A statement in Wikipedia, probably correct since no collective efforts or funded investigations into the causes and treatment, medical, psychological, environmental, or other, have been undertaken by society.

In Canada, those convicted from the general society are sent to prison, but after serving sentence, they are released, but with tags that label their propensity to repeat. They have not, and cannot be cured. What is the answer?

The situation in Ireland seems to reflect a more concentrated occurrence of abuse, but the situation is widespread and not confined to Catholic institutions. Native children in Canada were subjected to similar treatment, not all in Catholic institutions.

Ireland had (has?) a situation where most children were funneled through a religious educational system, not true in the U. S. and Canada with public secular schools for the majority in the U. S. and public Catholic day schools in Canada for perhaps half the kids. The singular nature of the system in Ireland undoubtedly contributes to the problems there because people are afraid to talk about them.

Certainly the Catholic schools in Canada, mostly non-residential, have dedicated teachers and turn out a good 'product'.
The small city I was raised in had a majority Catholic population and an archdiocese, but being small, everybody knew everybody else, and kids in Catholic schools were free of abuse (kids at one Catholic school told of one brother who would throw his inkpot at miscreants in class, but that was about as close to abuse as we ever heard about).

Joe has tried to put the problem in perspective; individuals, not the institution are to blame, a SOLUTION is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: mg
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 06:39 PM

The difference between a hockey coach and a priest or nun is that the p or n can convince you that you are going to hell.

And it is an institutional problem, as evidenced by the massive, prolonged, insane coverups. Throw the enablers in jail, at least a couple of them. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 07:02 PM

Jim Carroll says:

There is to be a meeting tomorrow in The Vatican between Pope Benedict, Cardinal Seán Brady and Archbishop Diarmuid Martin - subject "How the Catholic Church should deal with the damage caused by the child abuse scandal. I wonder if anybody finds this offensive as I do?

I think you're reading far too much into it, Jim. Yes, there was damage, terrible damage - and not just to the children who were molested or abused. I've read a lot about this scandal, since it first surfaced in the United States in the 1990s. Religions are supposed to heal the injustices of the world. In this case, religion was the seat of injustice in all of Ireland. The Catholic Church in Ireland betrayed trust and faith, and put bitterness in the hearts of an entire people. That's a lot of damage to deal with. As far as I can see, the Catholic Church is trying to deal with that damage honestly.

Rarely have I seen a description of the problem that was as eloquent and incisive as the post from caitlin rua. Finally, I've seen a post that really helps make sense of the matter. As caitlin rua describes it, the problem was very similar to the racial situation in the Deep South of the United States, where racism was "the way it was," and nobody dared question it. As a result, a small number of truly evil people were able to control all of society, allowing a horrible evil to continue for a full century after slaves were freed from bondage. I've often heard it said that racism and the extermination of American Indians are the "original sins" of the United States - terrible injustices for which all Americans were and are responsible. Now, there were certain individuals who actually committed the horrible crimes, and they bear primary responsibility. However, all those who knew of the problem and did not speak out, also bear responsibility. Yes, it requires a great amount of courage to speak out injustice - but in the face of injustice and tyranny, we are morally required to show courage. Otherwise, we must accept at least part of the blame. If we did not speak out ourselves, how can we blame others for not speaking out?

And yes, I think that one could argue that the "original sin" of Ireland was the tyranny of the Catholic Church, and the silent acceptance of that tyranny by the Irish people. Dublin had a chain of notoriously tyrannical archbishops. John Charles McQuaid was the Archbishop of Dublin and the Primate of Ireland from 1940-1972, and he was particularly notorious. I knew that name from long ago, because my grandmother was a McQuaid (not that she ever said anything critical of a priest or bishop). And yes, I understand that there was a network of functionaries all over Ireland to carry out the wishes of the Archbishop. This wasn't a secret - it's part of Irish literature, just as the secrets of American racism weren't really hidden. In the United States, everybody knew - and in Ireland, everybody knew. And as a result, everyone is guilty. Non-Catholics and Former Catholics in Ireland may think they're blameless and that it should only be current Catholics who take the blame and pay the price, but they're living a lie, a big lie.

Running away from a problem does not mean that you escape the blame. It's ironic to see these people who ran away, now turn and point the finger of blame at those who stayed to "deal with the damage caused." There are many that contend that priests and nuns should have spoken out against this evil, and indeed they should have. Some did, and they were silenced, or transferred to a missionary country. Priests and nuns are entirely dependent on the Church for their livelihood - a small, organized group of parishioners has far less to lose by speaking out, than does a parish priest. And an organized group of parishioners can have a far better chance of being heard by a bishop, because the bishop depends on parishioners, not priests, for financial support.

So, to absolve oneself of blame and to pass the blame on to priests and nuns, is cowardice. There is no question that there were priests and brothers and nuns who committed crimes of molestation and abuse, and there were bishops and archbishops who committed possibly more serious crimes by enabling the molestation and abuse to continue. They are the ones who are primarily to blame - but most of them are dead, or retired and feeble, or penniless. But the remainder of the blame rests on ALL who failed to fight this evil, ALL who failed to speak out, ALL who failed to show courage in the face of this evil. Those who ran away from the Church, have no right to turn around now and place the blame on those who stayed to clean up the mess.

Now, I know that there are people here at Mudcat who are offended at any attempt to compare any injustice to Nazi Germany and the Holocaust, but I disagree. The Holocaust was an absolute and unspeakable atrocity and tyranny - but all tyrannies and all atrocities follow the same pattern. Tyrannies and atrocities happen all the time, all over the world - and NOBODY is blameless. Tyrannies start with a small group of evil men (and some women). And tyrannies grow and prosper because of two things: people are silent and afraid, and people tend to place the blame on others. The injustices of Ireland and the United States and England and Iran and Cambodia and all over the world, are the responsibility of ALL the people of those countries.

Injustices and tyrannies eventually come to an end, but the aftermath can often be nearly as painful and destructive as the tyranny itself. After racial segregation ended in the United States, riots ensued. In Ireland, the tyranny of England was replaced by the tyranny of the Church. Soviet tyranny was replaced by a wide array of petty tyrants. And so on, and so on, all over the world. I think that one major reason why tyrannies are so often replaced by other tyrannies, is blame. Too often, the only things people can do after a tyranny has ended, is point the finger of blame. They fail to have to courage to acknowledge their own blame for the travesty that has occurred.

And that's what's happening in Ireland - mass denial of blame. The voices of outrage are directed at the Catholic Church, and at all who remain Catholic. The Catholic Church has apologized time and time again, and has paid huge sums in settlements and will undoubtedly pay even greater sums by the time this is all over, and much has been done in the Catholic Church to set up structures that will prevent such horrible injustices from happening again. Is it enough? No, certainly not. No amount is enough to repay an injustice of this magnitude. The Catholic church should never be absolved of its guilt in this matter, and should forever bear the shame of the horrible things done in its name. The detractors say that the apologies from the Church are insincere and insufficient, and I'm sure that is sometimes the case. The whole of the Catholic Church is appalled and embarrassed to the core by this scandal. However, the sincerity of an apology can be limited, when the crimes were committed by a past generation and reparations must be made by those living in the present. And when those demanding apologies and reparations are equally responsible for the wrongdoing, it can affect the sincerity and generosity of those being forced to pay and apologize.

Let me give an example: If the priest in Parish A is molesting little boys, to what extent is this the responsibility of the priest ten miles away in Parish B, or the bishop fifty miles away in his ivory mansion? If the people in Parish A did not speak out and keep speaking out until the injustice is ended, aren't they more responsible than the neighboring priest, or the far away bishop who lives in a world of power and unreality?

I have been told here many times, that I should be ashamed to be a Catholic. Here's a quote from above:

I find it very hard to see how anyone with a conscience could continue to support such an institution.

Well, I tend to think that the "institution" is morally neutral. It's people who do evil, not institutions. And it's only people, not institutions, that can prevent evil or bring it to an end. I don't support injustice, and I don't support evil. I suppose that I haven't always done as well as I could have in opposing injustice and evil in the Catholic Church, but I DID speak out to the point where I lost my job - and I have continued to speak out since them.

I live in a redneck area, one of the most politically conservative counties in the United States. There is constant pressure to force the school districts to teach "creationism," even in the community college. Barack Obama is viewed as the Devil Incarnate by many people here. People with progressive bumper stickers, risk getting their car's paint scratched with keys - and if it happens, the Conventional Wisdom is that the people with the bumper stickers were asking for trouble. My friend the Methodist minister was voted out of his job because he opposed the war in Iraq and supported homosexual marriage. The Catholic parish in town has been ruled by a small group of angry Catholic lay people for many years. This group works hard to bully the priests into submission. In a parish that normally has two or three priests to staff three churches, we went through forty priests in ten years. The priests just couldn't stand the constant battering they got, so they left as soon as they could - some to other parishes, some to lay life, some to alcoholism treatment, and at least one to early retirement and an early grave. Some just left without saying anything to anybody, and weren't heard from again.

The diocese finally sent in a temporary Parochial Administrator to fix the problem. This man had spent ten years away from the priesthood, working as a law enforcement officer, including several years with the FBI. When he came into the parish, this man "didn't take no shit from nobody," and he broke the power of the bullying circle of lay people. He hired me to handle adult education and RCIA, the program for instructing people who want to become Catholics. And just after I started work, he was reassigned; and we had no pastor for almost a year. Two young, foreign-born priests were left in charge, but most of the real power was held by a woman who held the position of bookkeeper and office manager.

It was hell working a new job without a boss to stand behind me. There was a stream of letters to the bishop, complaining about the heresy I was teaching. I was called to a hearing with representatives of the bishop's office because of a complaint that I was denying the 'creationist' view of the beginnings of life - even though what I was teaching was exactly what was stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I was exonerated, but the hearing scared our 40-year-old priest who had recently immigrated from Poland. He demanded that I change my program of instruction, not that the changes really made any difference. The parish was eventually split. Half was run by an ultraconservative pastor who immediately made it clear that he no longer wanted my services. The other new parish got a pastor I had known for twenty years. After a few weeks, he told me he was getting financial pressure from the diocese and had to lay somebody off. I voluntarily resigned, and he agreed to let me keep doing things as a volunteer. But after that, he never let me teach, and he got a "deer in the headlights" look every time I asked if I could teach. And a year ago, he removed me from education programs completely. I just recently found out that he had been under constant pressure from the parish bullies, and he was having enough trouble defending himself and just couldn't defend me. I guess I can't fault him or the Polish priest - you have to choose your battles, and it's tough to defend others when you yourself are under attack.

So, I spoke out, and lost my job because of it; and I continue to speak out. Over the years, I have spoken sternly to priests because they were drunk in public (and on the altar), because of inappropriate conduct with women, and for being petty dictators. Most of those priests respected me for what I had to say, and most are still my friends today. But I got shot down by anonymous lay people who made anonymous phone calls and wrote anonymous letters about my teaching "heresies" like evolution.

You'd think I should have learned my lesson, that I should have had the good sense to leave a church where the bullies can have so much influence. Well, I'm not going to do that. I missed Mass last Sunday because I had the flu, and my substitute was amazed how many people asked what happened to me. By being who I am and doing what I do, I'm able to bring joy to a lot of people. And I find that there are a lot of people in my parish who really love me, and who take comfort in the fact that I speak out when they feel they can't. I can't fix everything that's wrong with the Catholic Church, but somehow I'm able to function within it and do a lot of good. So, why should I leave?

So, before you place the blame, look at a mirror. If you live in Ireland, YOU are responsible for the absolute travesty that has occurred. Yes, the Catholic Church is guilty - but it has already shouldered much of the blame and paid much of the cost. What has not happened, is for the Irish people to acknowledge their share of the blame for the abuse and molestation of children that was endemic in their society for so long.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 07:59 PM

I'm stunned, Joe..
Their share of the blame?

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 08:43 PM

"If you live in Ireland, YOU are responsible for the absolute travesty that has occurred."
Joe,
Far too late to deal with all the points you have made - but a couple of quickies.
It is totally unfair to lay the blame for this obscenity at the door of Irish people.
All of these atrocities were allowed to take place directly because of the place the Catholic church occupied in Irish society - the power it possessed reached deep into the lives and minds and souls of the Catholic population, far beyond that of the Nazis or of Stalin's regime. It was complete control of the minds of the people; it even reached beyond the grave. If you defied your priest, you could be humiliated, beaten, ostracised, lose the goodwill and necessesary suport of your neighbours, your home, your occupation, even your country, (not forgetting persecution of other members of your family - including your children). On top of all this you also stood a fair chance of eternal damnation thrown in for good measure - spiritual blackmail, which was used to terrifying effect. Can you name any despotic regime in history which has ever achieved that position over its subjects? What was it the Jesuits boasted - "Give me a child five years old and I will give you a Catholic for life".
My own position.
I was born and brought up in England up to ten years ago when we chose to move here, mainly because of our interest in music.
My father went to fight fascism in Spain in 1937; because the Catholic Church threw its total support behind Franco's Fascist regime he was excommunicated from his church and my three sisters and I never received a Catholic education.
Some of our family remained Catholic, but my father's experiences, and that of his younger siblings, who were tormented by the priests and nuns for having a 'Commie' brother who had 'sided with the Devil in Spain', prevented them from being fully sucked in to the Catholic mind-machine.
I kept in fairly regular contact with one of my aunts in Dublin right up to her death a few years ago. She was one of the bravest people I ever met. She and her husband defied the anti-Catholic mobs in Derry in the 1950s, and only fled the city with her husband and three young children, the youngest a babe in arms, when their house was burned down about their ears. A hard lady - yet she was scared shitless of the priest to the day she died - what kind of organisation instils that sort of fear in its supporters - perhaps you can explain that to me?
G'night all,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Alice
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 08:53 PM

Call it coercive persuasion or undue influence, but it is a common tool used by organizations who control members, and the GREATEST control is over the beliefs people have about eternity and God. If you are told that your soul will be damned for eternity unless you obey the authority figure, then you will do almost anything to obey. It may seem unbelievable, but I know of parents who put their children in harm's way because they believed their religion had more power over them than even protecting their child. As I said, this kind of control over people can happen in other groups, too, not just the Catholic church.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 02:12 AM

Great posts!

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 04:03 AM

I find it absurd to say that all Irish are guilty for the cover up of these crimes.

Religious organisations try to influence society and in order to do that, they crave the moral right to do so. This sets them up as almost unaccountable. After all, they are not part of any democratic process, so are not answerable to anyone other than their own hierarchy.

And that's why for me, the hierarchy should be in the dock. Harbouring criminals, failing to report a crime, perverting the course of justice... How many laws on the Irish statute can we come up with? Quite a few I reckon.

And then, just suppose they are right. Just suppose for one minute that there is a bloke with a great white beard judging us.

It isn't just the child molester who would be damned to their vision of Hell, it would be those who have statues erected in their cathedrals too.

I do accept that in criticising institutions, it can be seen as criticising peoples' individual faith. But if you can separate your faith from the actions of your church, then why aren't you out there shouting "Not in my name!" And withholding support till it blows over? A few less idiots running around the Third World telling people not to use contraceptives would be a great help, and if enough people stopped funding it, then it might stop. After all, don't expect The Vatican to use their enormous corporate wealth to fund their missionary work...

Similarities here with the thread about Uganda possibly executing people for being gay, egged on by so called Christian organisations in The States.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 04:08 AM

Sorry, Jim - you write with passion and I know you believe what you say, but I don't believe that level of mind control was possible in Nazi Germany - and I certainly don't believe it was possible in Ireland.
My Irish ancestors were not sheep. If they knew of child abuse and molestation and did not speak out, they MUST bear at least a portion of the responsibility for their silence.
I certainly will agree that many injustices were done in the name of the Church, but I also insist that those who do not protest injustice, are partly responsible. It wasn't just the Catholic Church who condoned abuse and molestation - it was the entire Irish people.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 04:10 AM

"this kind of control over people can happen in other groups, too, not just the Catholic church."
This is true to an extent Alice, with one important rider - in most countries the church gives its allegience to the State - in Ireland, in practical terms, up to now, it has been the opposite with the State owing its allegience to the Church. Hence the collusion between Church and State over the abuse scandals.
When I was growing up (in Liverpool - therefore not directly under the influence of the church) there used to be a joke about particularly fierce priests "I'll bet Father ***** gave Jesus water-walking lessons").
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 07:45 AM

I know it's a bad idea to post when you're angry, and I've been trying to wait until I calmed down. But it's been over twelve and a half hours and I still haven't calmed down.   


> If you live in Ireland, YOU are responsible for the absolute travesty that has occurred... What has not happened, is for the Irish people to acknowledge their share of the blame.

> It wasn't just the Catholic Church who condoned abuse and molestation - it was the entire Irish people.   

Joe, I'm sorry, this is simply NOT TRUE, not acceptable, and not even close to fair. You cannot seriously be equating the guilt of the actual perpetrators of child-rape with the general public, many of whom DID speak out. The reason you don't know that is because you didn't hear about it. And that's because the only thing that got results was when the actions started to get official. And embarrassing.

You are doing exactly the same to "the Irish people" as you complain is being done to all the many innocent clergy. Mass, blanket blaming. What's the difference between saying "if you live in Ireland you're also responsible for this" and "if you're a priest/Catholic you're an abuser". Both assertions are monstrously unjust. How can you dispute the latter (which certainly should be disputed) and then turn around and state the former?

Anyone who has sexually abused a child is "responsible". Anyone who has knowingly enabled this is also responsible. The ordinary populace - including the huge number of genuine priests - who have not perpetrated such acts are not. (Are the non-molesting priests equally to blame for not speaking out? Or is it just the rest of us?)

> I don't believe that level of mind control was possible in Nazi Germany - and I certainly don't believe it was possible in Ireland.

It's not mind-control, it's fear of the consequences. When an organisation has power over so many aspects of your life, it doesn't have to be jackboots in the face to intimidate you. That is NOT CONDONING. Facilitating cover-ups is condoning.

But you're never going to accept it, are you? Irish society is how you choose to perceive it rather than how people living in it and shaped by it are trying to tell you it WAS. Anything anyone attempts to explain merely gets met with a polite version of "I don't believe it, therefore it isn't so". It's just starting to sound like denial. But I guess seeking to dilute the blame and project it onto the rest of us is one way of throwing some of the heat off the Church.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 08:46 AM

[i]It wasn't just the Catholic Church who condoned abuse and molestation - it was the entire Irish people.[/i]


There were actually examples in the Murphy report of parent complaining to the Gardai (in 1972 if I rememebr correctly) where the two detectives receiving the complaint didn't even bother to take notes.

What action would you suggest the parents should have taken? The authorities refused to take action, the files of complaints made to the church ended up in the private safe of the archbishop out of reach of anyone willing to follow up on complaints.

Let's call a spade a spade Joe, this is a well documented situation. What would you suggest those you blame collectively should have undetaken against the power of state and church combined?

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Alice
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 10:20 AM

I see this issue from a "bigger picture" point of view because of what I've seen first hand, not just as a Catholic, but from the abuse I've seen of members of other religions. Unlike Ireland, in the USA, anyone can start their own religion and since colonial times, small new religious groups thrive. It leads to terrible abuses like People's Temple in Jonestown. There are thousands of religious groups, most relatively small, and even when there is fraud or abuse, the victims are afraid to speak up. But I won't steer this thread that way. My comments just come from a point of view about how people believe what they believe and allow themselves to become victims of abuse or fraud.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 11:02 AM

Allow themselves to become victims? You don't think it's ever because they are at the mercy of a stronger force, who are not acting in their best interests?

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 11:12 AM

My apologies to Alice. I've just had an interesting PM from her, and I withdraw the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 11:16 AM

What Alice is describing is the way American Protestantism works - but the kind of American Catholicism Joe is describing has virtually the same power structure, i.e. a (fraction of the) laity running the show with no real accountability to the official hierarchy. They're effectively Baptists who go to mass. That isn't the way it works in Ireland, as I understand it - the hierarchy there does exert real power, and the laity very little.

That affects where you might want to fix blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Alice
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 12:12 PM

Especially when someone is born in to a religion, like most Catholics are, it is harder for them to recognize abuse of power, because they've lived with that power over them their whole lives, as did generations before.

Now that there is greater communication world wide about this issue, more people feel there is support to speak up.

(Bonnie, that's ok, you can leave your posts, "allow" was a poor choice of words on my part. With that kind of influence, people's defenses are down, which is what I meant).

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: mg
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 12:53 PM

Let's bring the theologians into this who I think are very very culpable..mg

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: mg
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 01:23 PM

You know what really scandalized the American Catholic Church? When the handsome young Cuban priest (he was some sort of radio or TV personality) fell in love and married a woman. That was the big, really big, scandal. He talked about it on Oprah I think. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 01:34 PM

Ah well, Ireland during the nineties has had Bishop Casey and Father Michael Cleary. What can you say (well, when these men's families came under scrutiny it the women who bore their children were the ones who took the blame, not the priests).

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Alice
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 03:08 PM

NPR radio reported on the Pope's response today:

transcript, Pope Will Write Letter To Irish Catholics On Abuse

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 03:42 PM

The "power structure" of American Protestantism is too divided ideologically to have any real power over its believers.

The ideological conservatism seen in the South and interior West extends from Roman Catholics to Baptists to Anglicans to evangelists; religion is not the main factor.
Opposition to big central government and its spending, dislike of change, opposition to people "who are different" (gays, Muslims, etc.) extends across religious distinctions.

Baptists, often singled out, are not uniform; there are two main groups, one very conservative (Southern Baptist Convention), the other moderate (Cooperative Baptist Fellowship).
Georgia, e. g., is 70% Protestant (24% Baptist), 12% Catholic, 13% non-believers; Savannah and Atlanta have strong Jewish elements. (Wiki data on percentages).

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 03:54 PM

Bonnie, I am certainly not denying that the primary responsibility for this scandal lies upon the people who molested and abused children, and on those who covered it up. They should be bankrupted, and should spend the rest of their lives in prison. I don't deny the crimes, and I don't deny the coverups, and I don't deny the need for punishment and reparations.

What I DO deny is the appropriation of secondary blame and fiscal responsibility solely to "the Church," meaning all those who are currently Catholic. At the time these crimes took place, almost all of Ireland was Catholic, and all of Ireland stood by and watched as these crimes took place because "nothing could be done." They did nothing, because they were afraid. I can't see how they are absolved from blame and liability simply because they left the Church in the time since. The worst of the crimes happened in government-owned schools that were staffed by members of religious orders. There is a huge outcry because tax money is being spent to pay reparations for these crimes, and the Church has been assessed only partial responsibility for payment.

How is that different from a teenage gang beating a teenager, with hundreds of people watching and nobody doing anything, because they were afraid to get involved? Are only part of the crowd responsible for failing to stop the beating? Is "I didn't help because I was afraid" a reasonable excuse for failing to show courage when courage is demanded? Didn't the same phenomenon happen in Germany and in the Deep South of the United States? Where was the Martin Luther King to defend these Irish children from oppression? Where was the Willi Brandt, joining the forces of resistance to Catholic oppression? Wasn't there anyone in Ireland who spoke out at the time these crimes were happening?

Whenever and wherever there is widespread and endemic injustice, there is an element of community responsibility. When something bad is happening and nobody does anything about it, then everyone who fails to act has a partial share in community responsibility for the injustice. And whenever there has been a community-wide injustice, there is a need for honest shouldering of community responsibility in the aftermath. I don't see this happening in Ireland.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 04:37 PM

The "power structure" of American Protestantism is too divided ideologically to have any real power over its believers.

It has a LOT of power, but not centralized power. The US is unique among developed nations in being mostly a small-town society, and in a small town it's quite easy for church-based groupings to exercise effective dictatorship (via bizarre abuses like using zoning law to regulate sexual behaviour). And the norm is the Baptist democratic-cum-mob-rule paradigm of autonomous local churches, ideologically quite homogeneous.

As Joe has discovered the hard way, this way of running a religion can sometimes mean convergence in disciplinary practice between organizations with quite distinct foundational dogmas. A version of Islam that took root in the same small-town society would end up as a good-ole-boy ulema that ran progressive imams out of town.

This is NOT what Ireland is like. It's equally sick but in a different way.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 07:09 PM

> ...responsibility solely to "the Church," meaning all those who are currently Catholic

Let's clarify one thing first: I have not been using or thinking of the words "the Church" to indicate all people who happen to be Catholic, but merely as a shorthand name for the specific organised structured religion and those who run it. This is how I've always understood this term, which is used a lot in Ireland, and that's the context I believe it tends to have here. But: that's my own perception and I would be interested to know how many of the Irish interpret the word the same way as you do and how many don't. As you say, the majority of them are Catholic, so it seems as though they would need a phrase to distinguish between themselves and the (for want of a better word) authorities. I'm not trying to quibble about semantics, but to unpick the differences in what each of us means when we say something.

If you are stating that ordinary Catholics should not be blamed for the atrocities, we have no disagreement at all. Of course they shouldn't and it's as offensively wrong as hearing all _____s described as _____-_____s. (Fill in the blanks yourself, people. In another thread. I'm not going there.) But it's exactly the same process.

But do not tell us, from a distance of 6000 miles, that we "stood by and watched" or "condoned abuse and molestation" or any of those other few-word phrases. It's just not true. Where do you get that from, except as a long-distance observation through a mental telescope-lens? You are making an unfair and blanket judgement when you don't know WHAT went on. (You probably saw, at the bottom of the article in Alice's link, the statement: "Police and social workers charged with stopping child abuse didn't start getting cooperation from the church until 1995. This opened the floodgates to thousands of abuse complaints...")   

> The worst of the crimes happened in government-owned schools that were staffed by members of religious orders.

Really? I never knew the state owned the Magdalene laundries. Or don't those count if they weren't officially Documented? The industrial schools were only part of the story and it's disingenuous to just ignore the parochial ones. But in any case, what on earth difference does it make, given the close collusion between the two authorities? We will never really know where the worst of the crimes took place, or the actual extent of them, because we're not going to ever have the full truth. There are too many blanks in the story, too many heartbreaking silences from spirits defeated by shame, despair, mental illness, and suicide. Or plain old age.

> How is that different from a teenage gang beating a teenager, with hundreds of people watching and nobody doing anything, because they were afraid to get involved? Are only part of the crowd responsible for failing to stop the beating?

Such a beating is PUBLIC, visible and obvious, and a crowd is pretty much equal in number to a gang (interesting analogy, that). And people have been known to join forces to throw off attackers. But how are you supposed to stop assaults that have already happened, or which were not known about because they occurred behind closed, well-protected doors and the victims were too terrified or ashamed to complain? (Don't underestimate the horribly unreasonable amount of self-blame that sexually abused kids incur, which usually makes them withdraw inside themselves and clam up.) This gang-beating scenario is far too simplistic to be a valid comparison.   

Your perception just appears selective to me, taking on board some factors of the story in Ireland while deflecting others, to fit a preconceived theory. You're arguing from a standpoint of ideological generalities which vastly oversimplify and reduce the individual human population of a country you have not lived in to an abstract, which you then pronounce blanket judgment upon. It almost sounds like an exercise in dialectical logic. You don't like it (nor do I) when people do that to you.

I have lived in Ireland for nearly 19 years and spent another 20 years in London's strong and active Irish community. But I was born and raised only about 60 miles (? or however far away Stockton is) from where you are based; and I can tell you from first-hand experience of both that there are significant differences between the two regions, and those arguments are neither fair nor properly informed regarding life here as it was realistically lived (I'm not referring to matters of the faith itself). You cannot condemn one from the matrix of the other.

I want out of this thread now. There's no point. You do not appear willing to entertain anything that runs counter to your established ideas, and it's just become a circular argument. Why waste further emotional energy or Mudcat bandwidth going round and round? We're never going to change each other's minds. Certainly I have a lot of respect for the travails and battles you have faced in your own spiritual journey, and wish that you had not been made to suffer for this black episode.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 07:25 PM

"we're not going to ever have the full truth. There are too many blanks in the story, too many heartbreaking silences from spirits defeated by shame, despair, mental illness, and suicide. Or plain old age."

Yes - I have inherited stories from dead relatives of what went on. But what can be said now? Most people would never speak. I certainly understand that - it takes a *lot* to speak, let alone under the oppression of such a powerfully all-pervasive & long-standing institution.

Bonnie, please don't abandon this thread. Your contributions are potent, lucid, informative and extremely valuable.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 07:41 PM

Jack Campin with his "Baptist democratic cum-mob rule" type statements obviously knows nothing about southern American social, political and religious demographics.

No point in further comment to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 09:00 PM

Joe - this sounds very much like "They were asking for it" as applied to rape victims - and it really leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. You appear to have no idea of the spiritual grip that the church had over the whole population of Ireland - think Jonesville on a national scale.
To blame the relatives of victims is outrageous, and it really does let the real criminals off the hook.
Did you know that peadophelia is not a crime in the eyes of the church, but rather a sickness - a legal defence, rather than an indictment (according to a legal expert on Church matters writing in the Irish Times earlier this week)?
Rather like saying Hitler, Goebells.. et al were insane and the German people as a whole were the real criminals.
Is this what you really are saying?
Your defence of the church goes far beyond any attempt to justify or neutralise the affair that I have ever come across.
At least the Vatican has only chosen to stay silent on the matter.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 09:24 PM

The Irish people have, in effect, all been victims of this crime. They have practically all been abused in one form or another by the Catholic church for a great many years. To expect them to shoulder any communal blame for the child abuse is just plain wrong, not to mention offensive. It also begs highly contentious comparisons and parallels, as has been already pointed out. I do, however, agree with Joe that the Catholic church is "morally neutral", though I prefer to think of it as half rotten. I'm referring to the staff, not the members. I have no problem with Catholics; it's Catholicism I have trouble with, and from what I've seen most of them do as well, one way or another.

I applaud any Irish people disillusioned enough to have left the faith, because they have done something about it - voted with their feet, and in Ireland that takes a great strength of mind. It's a great shame more of the clergy don't have that much courage or integrity, though I can see how it might be undesirable or even virtually impossible for some.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Alice
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 09:30 PM

I think most people don't realize the scope of what I was referring to. You have to realize that there are religions in the USA based on new-age beliefs, UFO's, all kinds of mixtures of things you probably have never heard of. I'm not talking about just mainstream Protestant and Catholic churches. You don't realize how many "new" religions are created and also how they can pressure and abuse members. They often have more power to control, as there is not usually a historic oversight established.

Back to the main subject of the thread now.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 11:08 PM

Well. in a way Alice, what you just wrote is very germane to the main subject of the thread — someone above, re the responsiblity of the Irish community as a whole for not speaking out, suggested a very cogent parallel between the Church in Ireland & 'Jonesville' — surely an extreme but excellent example of what you have just posted about.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Alice
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 11:32 PM

Yes, (and it is Jonestown, site of the People's Temple mass murder, not Jonesville).

But we've talked about all this on other threads.





More in the news today from the Vatican about Ireland.
"The pope promised that the Catholic Church would continue to follow the issue and try to develop "effective and secure strategies" to make sure the abuses don't happen again."

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Alice
Date: 11 Dec 09 - 11:42 PM

Mudcatters who have been around the forum for years know from past discussions that I worked with people who were leaving abusive cults and also produced a short film on cults and thought reform, the methods used by groups to recruit and control members.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 12:02 AM

Sorry - Jonestown of course. My watchword ever is 'accuracy matters', so thank you for setting me right, Alice.

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 05:03 AM

Bonnie and Jim, I don't mean to downplay the guilt of the Church, the priests and nuns who committed crimes of molestation or abuse, or the bishops and other administrators who covered up these crimes. I've said that more than once. Caitlin rua said "People in Ireland didn't question the Church." I can accept that as true, because that was more-or-less the case when I was growing up Catholic in the United States in the 1950s - but I never knew of a case where a priest or nun abused or molested a child, or did anything else seriously wrong.

And when someone in authority does something wrong, a tradition of never questioning authority seems like a pretty lame excuse for failing to challenge an injustice.

Now, Bonnie Shaljean and Jim Carroll describe an Ireland that sounds like a concentration camp, where every movement was monitored and controlled by a watchful Church. I would like to note that Bonnie and Jim have both been in Ireland for somewhat under twenty years - so I wonder if they actually were witness to the controlled society they describe. I also question whether Bonnie and Jim ever participated in Catholic parish life in Ireland, and I wonder if either one has ever actually suffered under the rule of the Church that they consider oppressive. I wonder what it is that they have actually witnessed themselves. It is my perception that their perception of the problem is distorted, although there was undeniably a real and extremely serious problem.

I've been very concerned about this matter since the Ryan Report was first discussed here in May, I've taken the time to read the report. The Sacramento area has dozens of diocesan priests and Sisters of Mercy who came to Sacramento from Ireland - the last arrived here about 1975, so these are people who grew up in Ireland during the period from 1950-65. I've seen it contended above that it was mostly middle-class people who became priests and nuns, but most of the Irish priests and nuns I know came from working-class families from all over Ireland. I asked several about the Ryan Report and about the conditions they lived under while growing up. They said that the schools, both Catholic and national schools, were strict and did practice corporal punishment, but that actual abuse was uncommon and not the rule. They found their Catholic parish churches to be a center of social life, and their experiences in their parishes were mostly positive.

The impression I get from my friends is that while Ireland was impoverished at the time, they had reasonably enjoyable lives as children. One priest, a farmer's son, grew up in County Clare, not far from Frank McCourt's Limerick. He said that McCourt was thought of as a "whiner" by people from County Clare, and my friend said that life for most kids was nowhere near as bad as what McCourt described.

So, my question is mostly one of proportion. I'm sure that there were poor children in Ireland, and that life was tough for many of them. But how many lived lives in fear of constant abuse? Some did - there's no doubt about that. And that is a horrible scandal that can never been forgiven.

So, where's the reality in all this? Where's the proportion? And I ask again - who is supposed to pay the cost of all this? In the United States, it is the current generation of Catholics who are paying the bill, and most of them were children at the time the offenses took place. I have to imagine the same will be true in Ireland - that the current generation of Catholics will pay for the offenses committed by people who are dead or near dead.

Another question I need to ask: what period of time are we talking about here? It is my impression that the worst cases of abuse took place before 1970, almost forty years ago - although the Ryan Report says some happened as late as the 1980s. It seems to me that a lot of the people who committed these crimes must be dead or at least old and feeble. So, who is there to punish for these crimes?

It is indeed a huge and terrible scandal - but it is my impression that the vast majority of Irish children did not suffer abuse or molestation, and that the vast majority of Irish Catholic priests and nuns did not commit crimes of abuse or molestation. Therefore, it seems to me that an overall condemnation of the Church is unwarranted. Rather than a hysterical "buckshot" attack on all things Catholic, there needs to be an honest, soul-searching review of the entire problem.

Jim and Bonnie, I think you have both taken anecdotal evidence and broadened it to support a sweeping and unfair condemnation. I think you both need a more proportional and realistic and rational perspective. Take a look at the Ryan Report. It takes a rational, balanced, realistic approach to the problem. It brings out the hard, horrible facts of this era of abuse, but it doesn't cloud the facts with unrealistic, sweeping condemnations.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Suffer The Children (Dublin child abuse)-2
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Dec 09 - 05:45 AM

Joe

a tradition of never questioning authority seems like a pretty lame excuse for failing to challenge an injustice

"tradition" is a very lame description of the situation in Dublin, in particular, during the reign of John Charles. Any challenge to church authority was dealt with quite ferociously - and was rendered unlikely from the start through the education system.

I have little doubt that some of the comments in this thread are ideologically driven and reflect, in a sense, a secondhand perspective on Irish life. Mine are not - and don't. Like Fergie in the original thread on this topic, I know whereof I speak.

Regards