Guest Nights on the way out

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Musket
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 03:41 AM

To pick up on Mr Padgett's point about the need to take the music more seriously now and less of seeing folk clubs as drinking pits..

I see your point Ray, but in the day's of holding Capstick steady to stop him falling down, and mad scramble to the bar in beer break, the music was indeed important. It was someone with an interpretation of a trad ballad followed by a couple doing harmony, then a monologue, a fiddle with Shetland reels followed by giving Tony smelling salts so we could hear his "Bonny Bunch of Roses."

If it is more about the music now, why do so many "clubs" comprise of people putting their reading glasses on and singing Fields of Athenry, pausing to turn the page?

Folk clubs as outlets for people to make a living have drifted somewhat and there are less. Yet the people who encouraged them to risk everything in the first place claim the concerts at festivals, (where they ply their trade) are too something or other and make a point of setting up fringes as they call them.

Weird, truly weird.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 05:34 AM

if people are in folk clubs because they want to sing/play [and hopefully listen to others also], why would they want to pay to have less opportunity to do so, unless, perhaps, they are short on options ?. much has been said by those impatient with amateurs, but in fact, there are often performers at singarounds that [ imo] are often more talented than the paid performers. and as flora inferred ,some of those paid performers lack the grace to listen to others contributions. an organizer might want to have paid acts, but they might be better at a separate event....if they can make it pay .
and if a club wants to insist on a ban on music stands/books/sheets, they are entitled to do so, but I suspect that a decrease in attendees may result. you never know though, such an approach might corner the market of the confidant and elite performer !

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 05:53 AM

When I first started going to folk clubs way back in the sixties the music was almost exclusively provided by the Guests, It now seems that everyone regards themselves as a performer, with or without crib sheets. So now sitting and listening to a Guest doesn't cut it anymore for a lot of people, hence they only turn up when they can perform. I have looked at the Folk 21 site and it seems to me they are more concerned with the survival of the Guest format to enable a few people to earn their living from performing at Folk Clubs. Personally, I don't mind if Guest Nights survive or not, as long as people with a common musical interest get together regularly and enjoy themselves.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 06:04 AM

Just read Petefrom seven stars post, and agree with him more or less 100%. Our experience shows that if it wasn't for profits from raffles on singaround nights we would not be able to afford any Guests. I also find it intriguing how all these self appointed experts start inventing rules surrounding what you can and can't do at a Folk Club.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 06:09 AM

I don't see why clubs shouldn't be run as professional businesses. They should certainly be run in a professional manner. That is not inconsistent with operating as not-for-profit businesses, although if someone can run a club as a sustainable business, providing good entertainment, paying professional guests a proper fee, reinvesting in the business and making a profit as well, good luck to them.

Whilst people seem to be reluctant to fork out a few quid to see someone in a folk club, they do seem to be willing to pay considerably more to see a well-known performer in a concert setting. The larger capacity makes this financially viable, but you lose the intimacy of a folk club.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Johnny J
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 06:30 AM

Bignige,

I agree that enjoyment of the music is the most important thing but the fact is that many of those who "regard themselves as a performer" want to be guests themselves and play for audiences whether or not making a living is the prime motive. However, there are just not enough outlets, audiences, or interest in them.

This is particularly obvious during The Edinburgh Fringe where every would be folk singer/musician and his dog seems to want to put on their own show. At other times of the year, many of them would be lucky to get a gig or even a support slot.
Of course, I'm not suggesting that most of these performers are unworthy albeit some certainly do have an overestimated view of their talent and potential pulling power. However, for the great majority, a career in folk music even at a more amateur level is, perhaps, an unrealistic notion.

So, while I'm all for encouraging people to sing and play music and even in public, I don't believe that it always necessary to be a "performer" and sharing the music is ultimately more important. For me, music is something you can sing and play WITH people and not AT people.

There will and should always be a place for good guest artists and performers in the appropriate type of club or venue. If they are good enough, they continue to attract audiences too but we can't all be regular full time performers.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Mo the caller
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 06:51 AM

From: GUEST,Bignige
Personally, I don't mind if Guest Nights survive or not, as long as people with a common musical interest get together regularly and enjoy themselves.

Yes indeed.

Is there a difference between what people do every week and what they do 'on holiday'? I know there is for us. Our regular evenings out are to dance or play in sessions. Not enough days in the week for folk clubs as well. At Festivals we still want to do that quite a lot but also hear some of the Guests.

Back at the turn of the century we spent a lot of time in Beverley. And went to the folk club that was then run by Richard at Nellies. I think he had the mix right. On singers nights he had many talented people to call on, he made sure that everyone who wanted a turn got one, encouraged people to learn their material but didn't forbid pieces of paper. Guest night tickets (I think prices varied according to fee charged) were sold in advance, and at other local clubs. If we liked the guest we bought a ticket.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 06:56 AM

Bignige, I'd like to think that the emphasis of Folk21 is the survival of folk clubs as concert venues, rather than to 'enable a few people to make a living' The majority of 'professional' acts you'll see on the club circuit have no illusions about being able to make a living from it.

You are absolutely right that everyone seems to regard themselves as a performer these days, as I said earlier, perhaps something to do with our celebrity obcessed culture these days. We found at The Milkmaid when we used to do 'open' nights, that a lot of these 'performers' don't even want to listen to their peers, never mind pay to see a quality guest, as they would do their spot, then pack up and leave, which I think is simply rude!

Personally, I take a different view, much as I love performing, both in clubs and festival stages, I want to be entertained and fed as well, and unless I'm booked to perform myself, you'll always find me at The Milkmaid on a Friday evening.

John

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,Bignige.
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 08:06 AM

Howard, I think thats the problem Folk Clubs are not sustainable businesses if they rely exclusively on Guests. Its quite likely our club will cease booking guests as it's pretty clear from the numbers we get it isn't working. The only sustainable element is the Singaround coupled to either an entry fee, or a raffle. Most clubs in our area are suffering the same problem.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 09:30 AM

Yes, they probably are. It needs a viable core of enthusiastic participants that are prepared to support Guest Nights, or even as I have done to sponsor them If the local Gig Guide stops being up-dated then who the Hell knows what is on? Many of the Guests, in my opinion, tend to be well and truly "Hyped" and the resulting performances can fall well short of what should be expected. No I do not want to hear of the Degree Course performances or the well rehearsed ad-libs, nor do I want to listen to cover versions. . If the lack of a good Gig Guide results in say 4 people missing a Guest then almost certainly this will be a reduction of perhaps 10 % to 20 %in the door take. Floor Singers MUST be of an adequate standard , please save me from the Music Stand and Mudcat Tome. Even worse was one I heard recently "I'm going to do a 'Peter, Paul and Mary ' number " AARGH. We need good Guests to lift the standard of Singers by exposing them to accomplished performers. May guest nights survive and prevail please please

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 09:45 AM

Hear, hear

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 09:48 AM

I have recently had a long fb argument re Folk21 which I will not start here!

However we have now got Concert clubs booking guests regularly weekly or monthly etc with quality guests costing money and needing audiences

Folk clubs are different and may book say once a month guest doing say 2 x 45 mins and other weeks with a singaround sort of set up and some who will not go when a guest is booked as they want to play/sing etc or Hot Spots of say 40 mins

Voices singarounds which meet say once a month (like Birstall and Lincoln) no instruments singarounds

Sessions which are music only (Celtic sessions) for example

Mixed sessions catering for song/instruments and accompanied and unaccompanied

Fragmentation, but the scene could be said to be the better for it, (or not!!)

Ray

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 11:30 AM

How about the following factors?
•        Folk club audience numbers on all nights are smaller than they used to be.
•        The audiences are older and are much more likely to have been involved in singing/playing themselves even if only in the past.
•        Partly in consequence of the smaller audience size, folk clubs are held in smaller venues (and finding any venue at all is getting harder).
•        Concert tickets for "top" artists sell at £15-20.
•        Many singaround/club regulars are unwilling/unable to pay this amount out on a regular basis – they're past the age when they'll pay regardless.
•        Even if "regulars" still buy tickets there aren't enough of them to keep a concert-style club going indefinitely.
•        Even if club organisers fill their (smaller) venues it can be hard to break even given the booking fees "top" artists need. (I'm guessing the days when even your most well known stars would sleep on a couch or floor are over.)

(Concerts in larger venues and festivals can still work because they are big enough to be cost effective, infrequent enough to be viable "treats", and don't have to rely on just a central core of loyal regulars.)

On the concert v singaround topic; most singaround/session participants aren't in it for their 15 minutes of fame but the pleasure of sharing and doing something with others. I've found that, luckily, those who just want a platform to show off on are likely to stick to open mics and a minority of acoustic clubs where they can get up at the front and then leave when they've done their bit. Singarounds don't suit their style – no time for long introductions about your life journey, no PA to hide behind, one song and then move on and usually stay in your seat in the circle. I think the reason many singaround regulars don't go to concerts is not that they miss their 5 minutes of fame; what they miss is being an active part of a group activity.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 01:46 PM

I've said this a few tims on here re various threads on this subject. I bought Folk Monthly type mags every week when I got into Folk in the 70's, and still have Folk Monthly each issue. Once or twice I've picked up a 70's issue, then a current issue, and noticed that many of the names on Guest nights are just the same! I'm all for the classic names still being booked and many are great class. But, there are so few NEW names being booked, and at the same time more and more people are learning music, the internet largely responsible for that. Hence Singers/open mic nights are increasing in popularity. Guest clubs really need a fresh approach. Festivals are getting it right but I fear many guest clubs are stuck in the same age as most of their guests!

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: r.padgett
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 02:07 PM

Well far be it for me to support Folk21 but they have a lot in common with Desi c in wishing to have new names booked in Concert and Folk clubs which book artists

Agree lot of names been around for many years ~ the trick is getting audiences to support the booking policy, that is paying "bum on seats" who do not wish to sing or perform themselves

Ray

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 02:26 PM

I ran a little folk club in Shottisham nr Woodbridge for nearly two years.The pub sadly did not lend itself to charging admission so during the evening we took the hat round and whatever we raised went to the guest artists.The sum raised on average was about £50 ,but towards the end of my time there it was around £100, The artists appeared on the basis of what we raised, they got, we always had regular members who got a spot and visiting holiday performers.A sit down audience watching folk is not common and many proffered the audience concentration rather than singing to a pub crowd, part talking and drinking, whilst they were performing.By the time I left from a slow start it was fairly successful,there were no problems getting artists,as we were being totally honest with them. The club is still running now and as far as know still successfully.
Al

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,BIgnige
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 02:39 PM

To R Padgett, we know what the trick is, thats the problem its stopped working.                                                                Folk 21 are trying but if you look at their Regional Days same names crop up.                                                                GUEST, above makes a number of practical observations. The future to me is looking very different from the past, and maybe thats a good thing.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 02:58 PM

Back in the 60s I went to folk clubs to listen to the music and was caught by the "participative vibe". Without quality guests and residents I wouldn't have been caught.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Jack Campin
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 05:24 PM

I ran a little folk club in Shottisham nr Woodbridge for nearly two years. [...] The club is still running now and as far as know still successfully.

Perhaps they could tell us or Google when they meet? I can't find any current listings. (I will be visiting Woodbridge in mid-November).

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Leadfingers
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 06:34 PM

Sadly , "Professional" still tends to be a dirty word in Folk circles

I find it depresssing that the Music Stand has become so important in Clubs , though age can so easily affect memory .

IF a club has a 'Paid Guest' , it is the MC's responsibility to ensure the guest has reasonable time to perform - After all , its the guest MOST of the paying punters want to hear , not some local ego tripper . More 'Professsionalism in MC's matters

If I muck a song up when doing a floor spot , I am FAR more likely to
get off rather than waste time starting again and give the guest adequate time - I DO get annoyed at Time Wasters myself !

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Betsy
Date: 01 Oct 14 - 07:19 PM

Great thread and I keep agreeing with Bonnie
It REALLY isn't easy trying to be a full time singer.
I was talking to "someone" who has a small group.
You'll all know him /them but let me try to be confidential.
I met him at Ron Angel's funeral om Monday.
He was telling me he was knackered after travelling up to Edinburgh on Saturday night with the group (digs required), then needing to be at Bognor Regis for an afternoon gig on Sunday - then home again to the North East of Endland to drop of the Band.
Believe me - these people are working their bollocks off , as are a few others - it's a hard life no ifs / buts.
Some of these "Agents" don't appear to have a clue about geography, coupled with the need for performers to keep working.
There are lots of other people reaching a strange age - some buy open-top sports cars , some re-live their youth buying Harleys or other bikes - but we're stuck with 3 chord merchants who have just acquired their Taylor, Lowden, Martin, or other. THAY WANT TO PLAY and I undertand THAT - but they're not going to come along when a Guest is on and they can't havea play.
It must be a nightmare for Organisers.
Padgett knows the score and should be a source of guidance in this matter

Cheers

Betsy

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 03:53 AM

I do feel sorry for organisers of clubs - mostly unpaid - who put a lot of work in for not much recognition, in a difficult market.

I had a telephone message yesterday saying a monthly session - one with invited people rather than open - so they all knew more than 3 chords - with 10/15 players each time + some audience - could no longer occur as the landlady thought she was not making enough on the Sunday evening do. I think in reality the landlady did not like the music much, as other similar pubs I pass to get there look fairly empty on a Sunday night.   

On the +ve side Tom Lewis was at Faversham last night - did a very nice set - with reasonable and varied floor singers. He had been at Dartford the night before and is at Tenterden this weekend. He wanted to spend 2 days at the Chatham dockyard which he thought not enough as there is now so much there of interest. Someone got the Geography right.   
FloraG

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 05:52 AM

my regular club has been moved on twice over the years. the first to concentrate on the restaurant trade, which I don't think really took off, and the seven stars more recently for costly refurbishment. we moved round the corner to the social club, where the regulars, though sometimes noisy really appreciate us. seven stars is open again, but almost empty when I drive past. pub owners have to make hard decisions, but can often end up worse off. perhaps, if they were more enthusiastic about musicians in their pub they might find promoting these nights to their customers, other nights, might boost audience on folk nights. there is certainly nothing to lose in doing so.
if they had open mic they would be paying an organizer

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,Alan Day
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 06:20 AM

Re Sorrel Horse Shottisham nr Woodbridge Suffolk
2nd Monday in the Month Jack
Regards
Alan Day

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 07:43 AM

Thanks Alan!

I'll miss it by a week this time, maybe next year.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,Alan Day
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 08:30 AM

Jack check out The Everyman Folk Club nearby ,always a top artist.
The Ship at Blaxall normally has something on during most weeks ,usually a session.Also singing Monday afternoon, after the local market.
Al

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: Ian Hendrie
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 09:40 AM

As someone who visited folk clubs in the Manchester area in the 70's when there was a plethora of clubs, I still prefer to pay to listen to 'professional' singers and musicians (or at least those skill levels might put them in that category if the economics of the 'folk music scene' allowed it). At my age I don't want to be enduring the 'this is one I wrote this afternoon' amateurism of some who see folk clubs as an easy avenue for self promotion.

Some clubs are content to remain singaround clubs with the same few attendees and who am I to say they are wrong. Hopefully they will be encouraging any young people who may attend as the average age of members is probably rather high.

Anyway, back to my point (if there is one?). The Manchester Evening News always had a folk column and events diary in the Friday issue. This was pre mobile phones, home computers, social media and so this was the main way in which I could hear about folk concerts. Others read the paper as well and I clearly remember queuing an hour before opening time to get into the Deanwater or the Golden Lion. I don't know if there is a folk column in the MEN any more as I, like many others, don't read it. So how do clubs publicise their concerts? Well, e-mail lists and social media play a big part but I'm not convinced they gather in many newcomers. Folk club websites are important and some of these are very good but they must be kept up-to-date and accurate. Facebook sites can spread the word to group members but some, myself included, are very wary of getting too involved in it. A year or so ago, I spent a couple of days publicising a concert to the local community, distributing upwards of 1000 printed leaflets. I sold 2 tickets as a result! Clearly when it comes to advertising I still have a lot to learn.

But I do think folk clubs who present guest nights need to be very proactive in promotion. It may not work but they have to try - and they must have a good website.

Here's the self promotion bit : An on-line guide to folk clubs in the Manchester UK area can be found at www.pyramidfolk.co.uk/. If there are any clubs in the area that want adding to it just let me know. If anyone is interested in setting up a similar site in other areas I'll do my best to help if I can.

Subject: RE: Guest Nights on the way out
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 06:44 PM

Folk clubs are generally very poor at reaching outside the established folk scene. It takes a lot of leg work as Ian found and then you need to sit down, look at the results and decide where to advertise next time. When people come in off the street you need to talk to them, find out how they heard about the club. If a newcomer turns up on a singers night then take the trouble to explain how that differs from a guest night otherwise when you are trying to sell a gig with a major name they are telling their mates that you just run the musical equivalent of am-dram.