BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:35 PM

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/its-wrong-%E2%80%93-widow-blasts-us-troops-impunity-coroner-rules-captains-death

Who in their right mind uses a forklift instead of a flatbed to move a shipping container 3km ?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:36 PM

”You keep saying spy as if that mattered.”

Errrrrrrmmm...no! I haven’t referred to anyone as a ‘spy’. I don’t see where ”anyone on this thread has referred to anyone as a ‘spy’. The only reference I notice is from Steve, where he says that he’s read that the husband is ‘not a registered diplomat’. That’s very different to saying that he’s a ‘spy’.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:45 PM

There seems to be a lot of victim-blaming by Americans going on - both from Drumpf in respect of the Sacoolas case, and the soldiers in the case Iains linked to above.

Yet again I ask, what would be the reaction of Americans - especially Herr Führer Drumpf - if the circumstances were reversed, and Americans had been killed by British citizens in the US, who were then whisked away home in secret in order to avoid responsibility for their own fatal stupidity?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 01:09 AM

Steve Shaw has it right up there. I used to wonder, as a child, why America drove on the right when in all their films, their stagecoaches drove on the left. It was explained to me that everyone drove on the left in those days so that the driver could swing his whip right-handed.
Then there was that Napoleon bloke who took over most of Europe and ordered that everyone did everything to his way of thinking.
I wonder if HE was left-handed?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 03:43 AM

Background for those that are inquisitive:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/anne-sacoolas-american-diplomat-wife-fled-england-after-killing-19-year-old-harry-dunn-with-her-ca

Diplomat or convenient cover?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Monique
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 04:05 AM

Iains' link.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 08:29 AM

Shame on the USA for denying justice to the English family bereaved by this woman, it's a disgrace to democracy.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 08:34 AM

How many times have US Forces opened fire and killed friendly forces because of their gung ho attitude, and the USA defends them and denies justice ? It's time the rest of the world gave good old Uncle Sam the same respect.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 11:12 AM

Search for Spy. More than one mention.

You are a dip in US who commits a crime, your embassy can get you out. That is immunity.

That's why the issue is immunity, not that it was applied here.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 12:20 PM

A very interesting article here claiming complicity on the part of the UK’s own FCO, raising the issues of who, in fact, was driving the car, the fact that Mr. Sacoolas is not a diplomat within the meaning defined in the Vienna Convention, his role in assisting GCHQ to spy on British citizens’ communications, and asking important questions about this whole sordid, outrageous business.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 10:01 AM

Spy, again.

After the Tehran embassy takeover, we all got dip passports so that people (terrorists) couldn't tell who the CIA employees were.

That did not give us all diplomatic immunity except coming into the country, when our bags could not be searched. Has something illegal been seen, customs could not have done anything about it, even though we were not actually diplomatic. Again, that is how immunity works.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 10:17 AM

Ooh https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/13/uk/harry-dunn-immunity-intl-gbr-scli/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

Immunity now irrelevant says UK because she fled.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 01:20 PM

The parents of the dead boy are awaiting a meeting with the culprit
She appears to have agreed to meet them (with her lawyer present), but I don't think anything has happened yet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 04:04 AM

The BBC reported that:

not only did the UK gov point out that being in America means she has no immunity now, the American gov confirmed the situation.

Which would suggest extradition was the route, though it looks like the family of the dead lad are looking into using the American courts.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 10:37 AM

Try her in abstensia.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 11:30 AM

Not satisfactory, Mrrzy.

Justice should be seen to be done (R v Sussex Justices, ex parte McCarthy ([1924] 1 KB 256, [1923] - impossible whilst the accused is skulking in another country and refusing to face her accusers.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 04:55 PM

Yeah... But no US court has jurisdiction. It's not as if she killed him *in* the embassy, which is technically DC.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:12 PM

Precisely. She should be returned to the UK to be tried under UK Law.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 03:48 AM

Why does diplomatic immunity even exist? I'd rather my dips behave themselves...

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 03:54 AM

Bingo! Right on the button!

In fairness, it exists in order to prevent individuals on diplomatic service and their families from being persecuted by less-than-friendly countries in which they have to serve - an example being where they could be arrested on trumped-up charges...effectively taken as hostages.

But my understanding is that DI does not absolve them from their responsibility to behave within the laws of the host country.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:16 AM

Trumped-up charges aahahahaha sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:53 AM

Interesting piece in the guardian some days ago:
Mark Stephens, an acknowledged legal expert on diplomatic immunity law, challenged whether Jonathan Sacoolas enjoyed full immunity under the Vienna convention, saying he had not been registered as such with the Foreign Office.

He suggested Sacoolas and his dependents instead only had more limited immunity under the Visiting Forces Act, and its derivative bilateral orders that provide immunity to personnel on specific UK bases. That immunity, according to Crown Prosecution Service guidance, is restricted to specific offences that “arose out of and in the course of the service person’s duties as a member of the visiting force including whether the act occurred in the course of the individual’s professional duties”.

The US air force has in the past, according to the CPS, interpreted professional duties to include driving from an air base to a home address. The Sacoolas family was reportedly living on the base, which would mean they could not claim that defence.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:08 AM

”Trumped-up charges aahahahaha sorry.”

And I apologise for the weak pun - it seemed funny at the time! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:25 PM

Did you hear that the parents are in the US and got invited/summoned to the white house, where unbeknownst to them the driver was already there? Crass doesn't begin to cover it.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/anne-sacoolas-grieving-parents-ambushed-by-trump-who-was-hiding-spy-wife-at-the-white-house?ref=scroll

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mossback
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:17 PM

Yep, just goes to show what an absolute piece of shit Trump is.

Not content with perverting the course of justice by sequestering the perpetrator, he now attempts to use this tragedy to produce a photo-op/campaign rally spot.

Impeachment can't come too soon - get this goddamn son of a bitch NOW.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: gillymor
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:03 AM

Of all the shabby things the dickwad has done that attempt at a Reality TV Show moment with those grief-stricken parents ranks up there with the shabbiest.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:55 AM

All done at the instigation of Boris, If the media are to be believed!

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:28 AM

Don't you mean if Trump is to believed?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM

Today Congress will have a vote to overturn
a Trump order to reverse Obama's clean air and water regs.
Another crack in the dam for the vile Frump administration.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:55 AM

Money, money money
Must be funny
In a rich man’s world....

<©> B. Ulvæus/B. Andersson

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:56 AM

Money, money money
Must be funny
In a rich man’s world....

© B. Ulvæus/B. Andersson

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 09:14 PM

We should rethink diplomatic immunity. I works well in cases of cultural confusion or misunderstanding but in cases of murder or manslaughter I feel there is a universality of understanding the need for respondsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 09:27 PM

If the woman had remained in the UK and faced the consequences of her actions, it’s highly unlikely she would have been charged with murder or manslaughter. She would possibly have been subject to the lesser charge of ‘Causing Death by Dangerous Driving’.

But, as it seems not to be politically expedient so far as your President and our Prime Minister are concerned, it seems unlikely we will ever know.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:22 PM

I haven't followed this story but just came across the Daily Beast link on a friend's page. It's so absurd that this happened in the way it did - yet another reason why the idiot in the White House needs to be removed ASAP. Who on earth thought that ambush was a good idea?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 01:44 AM

”It's so absurd that this happened in the way it did - yet another reason why the idiot in the White House needs to be removed ASAP”

Completely agree, along with the idiot in 10, Downing Street, SRS.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 01:24 PM

US national Anne Sacoolas is to face magistrates in the UK charged with causing the death of motorcyclist Harry Dunn by dangerous driving.

Mr Dunn, 19, died when his motorbike was in a crash with a car near RAF Croughton, Northamptonshire, on 27 August, 2019.

The case would be heard at Westminster Magistrates' Court on 18 January, the Crown Prosecution Service said.

It is understood Mrs Sacoolas, 44, will appear by video link from the US.

Mr Dunn's mother, Charlotte Charles, said: "My family and I are feeling very emotional and overwhelmed, having just learned the news that Mrs Sacoolas is now to face our justice system.

"It is all that we asked for following Harry's death."

Mrs Sacoolas had diplomatic immunity asserted on her behalf by the US government following the collision, and was able to leave the UK after the incident.

In December 2020, the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) authorised Northamptonshire Police to charge Mrs Sacoolas with causing death by dangerous driving.

An extradition request for her to be brought to the UK was rejected by the US government.

A CPS spokesman said: "While the challenges and complexity of this case are well known, we remain committed to securing justice in this matter.

"Anne Sacoolas has a right to a fair trial. It is extremely important there should be no reporting, commentary or sharing of information online which could in any way prejudice any proceedings."

BBC

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 05:12 PM

Ah seems that the BBC article has been updated.

"Her lawyers denied reports the 44-year-old would attend via video link and said no such agreement had been made."

And

"Foreign Secretary Liz Truss tweeted: "Welcome news that Anne Sacoolas will face a UK court. We continue to support the family to get justice for Harry Dunn.""

And

"In a statement, US law firm Arnold & Porter told the BBC: "While we have always been willing to discuss a virtual hearing, there is no agreement at this time."

The CPS declined to comment on the law firm's response."

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Dec 21 - 08:07 PM

As an Embassy brat my take is that the vid link, while seemingly a compromise leaving each side unhappy and so a good one, is kinda moot. I mean, if she has immunity, she has immunity, so no trial, which is horrible for the poor biker's family. But if no immunity, she should go back and face the music, and should not have been flown out in the first place. So, no video.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 04:29 PM

So let's ask ourselves two questions, Mrrzy. First, should the *spouse* of a diplomat, going out and about fancy-free in a country not their own, be entitled to the same immunity as their hubby? Second, do you believe in the incredibly simple concept of natural justice, as opposed to justice stymied by peculiar and anachronistic "rules of diplomacy?"

This woman, driving on the wrong side of the road, killed a young man who was abiding by our rules of the road. How hard is it for you to see that she must be brought to justice? After all, the US is hardly the Soviet Union, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 06:02 PM

To bring a little sideways action into this question, I'd be deeply cynical about the idea of any allegedly dangerous driver in any country in which the motor industry has its reverent acolytes being "brought to justice" in any real sense. It is the norm that drivers who kill get a slap on the wrist - a fine and a little lecture from the judge, who may even add words such as "We all get irritated with cyclists at times" or "It is terrible for the driver to have to live with this for the rest of his life". At the very worst, a driver may - horrors! - be deprived of the licence to drive for a few months; never for longer, because it would be too horrifying a punishment to be deprived of the "right" to drive.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Allan Conn
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 06:56 PM

Diplomatic immunity was surely a concept created for reasons which do not include causing the death of innocent young people in a friendly country? Or any country for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 21 - 08:14 PM

When I say "brought to justice" I don't mean hanged, drawn and quartered. I mean held to account in our justice system. This alleged offence occurred in the UK. This person, in the interest of justice, should be brought to account in this country and should be fully subject to the sanctions, if convicted, afforded by our legal system. The offence is causing death by dangerous driving. The sanction, according to circumstances, can be around ten years in prison. "A fine and slap on the wrist" would be a highly unlikely outcome in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: G-Force
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 05:38 AM

By my reckoning, I have driven in at least 9 countries other than the one I actually live in (UK). I would hate to think that by failing to observe some local rule of the road, which I may have momentarily forgotten or not even known about, I might have caused an accident.

In the case of Mrs. Sacoulas it would be interesting to know, for example, whether the car she was driving was left- or right-hand drive.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 05:44 AM

The substantive point is that she was on the wrong side of the road.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Dec 21 - 10:22 AM

That occurred during a different administration, under a corrupt Secretary of State. The current one probably doesn't have any sway over past administrations.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 04:49 AM

Oh, Steve, Steve, you're so naive! A quick search for "UK driver kills motorcyclist" brings up a few… the minimal disqualification from driving normally starts at the end of the jail sentence, if there is a sentence:

Usman Mohammed Farooq drove his car across the path of biker Martin Barker on Uttoxeter Road, Draycott, in January 2019 and killed him. He was sentenced to two years in prison (with a two-year ban from driving).
Dumitru Radu failed a breathalyser test at the scene of the collision that killed motorcyclist Colin Lazenbury, 54, in Bournemouth on 26 May 2019. He was jailed at Salisbury Crown Court for five-and-a-half years (and disqualified from driving for three years).
Lucian-Sorin Todor, 52, collided with Jack Burgess, 22, having crossed double white lines to overtake a cyclist near Petersfield, Hampshire, in June 2019. Todor pulled over briefly but did not stop his 46 minute-long hands-free phone call and continued it for 30 minutes after he had driven away. He was sentenced to eight years in prison and disqualified from driving for five years and four months.
A van driver who hit and killed a motorcyclist after going through a red light had previously crashed into a schoolboy who died while crossing the road. Kurt Sammon, 54, collided with 13-year-old Michael Weaver in 2004, as the youngster crossed. He was later jailed for six months, after prosecutors dropped a charge of causing death by dangerous driving. Then 15 years later, Sammon killed a motorcyclist when he went through a red light and hit 30-year-old Louis McGovern, the Manchester Evening News reports. Prosecutor Rob Hall said Sammon had one of the 'worst driving records I've ever seen'. He was locked up for seven years and banned from the roads for 13-and-a-half years.
A 20-year-old who killed a motorcyclist after his car drifted to the wrong side of the road has been spared jail because of his age. Brooke Thomas Watney said he was 'distracted' when his smart car collided with 63-year-old Clive Kingsley on February 15, 2017. Watney was sentenced to eight months in prison, suspended for 18 months. (This means he won't go to jail if he's not convicted of any other offence in the following 18 months.) He was also disqualified from driving for two years, ordered to do 160 hours of unpaid work and pay prosecution costs of £500.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 05:33 AM

In what sense have I been naive?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Thompson
Date: 19 Dec 21 - 03:39 AM

You probably haven't, Steve. These (mostly) got short jail sentences ok, though the furrin names might be part of that. I'm used to looking at sentences for drivers who kill or maim cyclists, rather than motorcyclists, and these drivers tend to be let off virtually scot-free; in fact, at times you have judges saying things on the order of "Everyone finds it hard to see cyclists".

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 03:38 AM

Some countries do things differently.

'Miscarriage of justice’: outcry after Colorado trucker given 110 years

'Miscarriage of justice’: outcry after Colorado trucker given 110 years for fatal accident

Rogel Aguilera-Mederos was convicted of vehicular homicide and received a lengthy sentence that sparked calls for leniency

The case of a young Colorado truck driver sentenced to 110 years in prison over his role in a fatal collision has prompted widespread calls for leniency and fueled criticism of the US justice system.

On Tuesday, the Colorado district attorney whose office prosecuted the case asked the court to reconsider the sentence of Rogel Aguilera-Mederos, 26, following the backlash over a punishment that’s been called unduly harsh.

Aguilera-Mederos was convicted in October of vehicular homicide and other charges related to a deadly crash in April 2019, which occurred while he was hauling lumber in the Rocky Mountain foothills. He has said he was descending a steep portion of the highway when the brakes on his semi-trailer failed, leading to a multi-vehicle pileup and four deaths.

The judge in the case has said he was obligated to give Aguilera-Mederos the lengthy sentence based on minimum sentencing laws for the charges, prompting further criticism of the criminal justice system. .

More than 4.5 million people have signed a petition calling for Colorado’s governor, Jared Polis, to grant clemency to Aguilera-Mederos or commute his sentence. Meanwhile, truckers and civil rights groups have expressed outrage over the sentence.

“It is a stark miscarriage of justice,” said Domingo Garcia, the president of the League of United Latin American Citizens (Lulac). “Here’s a man with no prior criminal record who went to work to feed his family. The brakes go out on his truck. It was a terrible accident. He’s given 110 years for the first crime he’s ever committed, a crime that was not intentional.”

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 11:01 AM

"Everyone finds it hard to see cyclists".

Perhaps it was the two cyclists I saw at the weekend.

The first one, in dark clothes and no lights on a wet winter evening, was cycling diagonally across a main road leading from a busy roundabout - all this while looking at his mobile phone. He continued on his way down the 30 mph road in spite of the fact that there was a segregated cycle track just the other side of the grass verge.

The second, also in dark clothes with no lights, avoided the traffic by cycling past me from behind on the pedestrian only footpath. If there was a bell fitted to the bike, it wasn't used. In this case, the segregated cycle way was on the opposite side of the road. Neither of the cyclists was wearing a helmet.

I am both a car driver and a cyclist. As a cyclist, I take responsibility for my own safety by making myself visible using lights and bright clothing where appropriate and planning my route to minimise the time spent in heavy traffic.

DC