BS: English as taught in Nordic countries

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Aug 20 - 03:16 PM

I studied Phonetics and Linguistics as part of my MA course at Edinburgh University. There were many speech therapists and TEFL (Teaching English as a Foreign Language people) among the students, as well as many nationalities (sadly, no Scandinavians though).
We learned to represent speech using Phonetic Script, and to listen extremely carefully to various recordings of British regional accents and even other languages. Our tongues were sprayed with cocoa powder (!) and then we pronounced a certain plosive, after which a camera took a photo of the inside of the mouth, to see where our tongues had touched the palate.
There were fascinating short films of X-rayed faces of speakers, showing the most weird movements of the glottis, epiglottis etc during the speaking of, say, pharyngeal fricatives (Arabic has these). I was amazed at how enormous the tongue is, it's a huge organ!
All this is to explain that any Nordic people learning English in their own countries would probably not have access to all this fascinating stuff.
My husband now has the most complex and amusing accent imaginable. Malinke mixed with French and Broad Norfolk!

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Aug 20 - 03:52 PM

i lived not far from howard jones and i remember one essex countryman who used the term i got to go over yonder, some year ago a mudcat member called virginia tam enlightened me that this expression was stll used in virginia usa

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 13 Aug 20 - 06:46 PM

Senoufou, anyone who has dined on beef tongue can tell you how substantial the tongue is as a muscle. One beef tongue will serve five.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Aug 20 - 12:59 AM

‘Over yonder’ or, more dialectically accurately, “Ower yonder”, is still commonly used in my part of the Backwoods of Lincolnshire. I say it myself.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Aug 20 - 04:01 AM

You're right Andrew. I'd seen whole ox tongues on the butcher's slab (in the fifties) but I didn't realise that the human tongue was so enormous.
Re accents, my husband only yesterday entered our village shop (we were properly masked) and bellowed, "Ahrrr yew orrlroit mbor?". (How are you mate?) He rolls his rrs as in French, implodes the letter 'b' as in Malinke/Bambara and incorporates the Norfolk 'oi' for 'i'. The shop owners always fall about laughing.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Aug 20 - 04:34 AM

aren't we confusing accent with dialect here - a lot?

The two are of course intertwined. But words is dialect. Pronunciation is accent.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Senoufou
Date: 14 Aug 20 - 05:54 AM

Absolutely Mr Red. People often talk about ' Birmingham dialect' for example when referring to the 'Brummie' pronunciation, which is, as you say, accent.
Obviously, any language will have elements of both, but they are distinct. Learners would do well to concentrate on each, because pronunciation and vocabulary are equally important in making oneself understood.
I'm very interested in tonal languages, where the raising or lowering of the voice over a syllable changes the meaning. My Chinese friend Betty Ko from Hong Kong (we became friends at University) taught me quite a bit of Cantonese, and she was always demonstrating this to me.
For instance, 'ma' on an even tone is 'mother' but on a rising tone means 'horse'! (I admit I may have got this the wrong way round - it was nearly sixty years ago!)
Sorry about all this rambling - don't get me started on languages - it's my obsession. (Have you noticed eh?)

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: keberoxu
Date: 14 Aug 20 - 12:18 PM

Skarpi . . .
heeeere, Skarpi . . .

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: leeneia
Date: 15 Aug 20 - 02:14 PM

I remembered another old American word - I guess, meaning I assume. Chaucer used it.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: meself
Date: 15 Aug 20 - 02:33 PM

My mother said that whenever Agatha Christie (IIRC) had an American character enter the story, he would very soon say, "I guess". Although I did go through an Agatha Christie binge for a few weeks one summer, I can't recall any American characters ....

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Aug 20 - 08:34 PM

Just an impression, but of those Scandinavians I have either met, or seen on the telly, a fair proportion of them do seem to speak English with an American accent, but no idea if this is because they learned it that way in their home countries, or perhaps had spent some time living and working in N America.
Of course, there are a lot of Nordic words and place names used over here, especially in the more northern parts of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 Aug 20 - 10:58 AM

Backwoodsman likewise "yonder" pretty common here in the Scottish Borders too. PBasically interchangeable with the form "thonder"

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Aug 20 - 06:51 PM

Often shortened to "yon" - e.g. See yon lassie? meaning See that girl over there?

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: HuwG
Date: 17 Aug 20 - 05:33 AM

Several years ago, I was at a party. A friend brought a Japanese exchange student over, and said "You must talk to HuwG. He has a Welsh accent." Someone else, who was a lecturer in the English department at a nearby university pounced on this statement and said "He doesn't have a Welsh accent. He has a Welsh intonation. His English construction isn't idiomatic."

Cue a rather acrimonious discussion, with mutual accusations of poshness and political correctness. The poor Japanese girl, whose English grammar was faultless, was nevertheless baffled.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: meself
Date: 17 Aug 20 - 10:54 AM

The lecturer clearly didn't understand the concept of 'accent', which is largely about intonation, surely, and has nothing whatsoever to do with construction, idiomatic or otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 20 - 11:57 AM

Isn’t ‘idiomatic English construction’ a.k.a. ‘Dialect’ rather than ‘accent?

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Aug 20 - 05:30 PM

I thought intonation was playing musical notes in tune.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: HuwG
Date: 19 Aug 20 - 08:24 AM

As I recall the argument (from at least fifteen years ago), the lecturer was insisting that I use more "indeed to goodness, look you" to be considered to speak with a truly Welsh accent. I asked what they would consider Philip Madoc (or indeed Ruth Madoc) to be. They ducked the question.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Aug 20 - 11:03 AM

Huw, it sounds to me like the lecturer had had a too much to drink. Correcting somebody's English outside of the classroom, talking of you in the third person when you were right there, joining in an acrimonious discussion at a party. These are signs that his elevator wasn't going to the top storey.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Aug 20 - 11:14 AM

I've identified another American archaism.

"Whilst you’re in Scotland it’s hard not to notice the ancient Gaelic language weaved into everyday life around you..."

An American would say 'while' not 'whilst' and 'woven' for 'weaved'.

I wonder what the deal is between while and whilst.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Jos
Date: 19 Aug 20 - 12:12 PM

I would use 'while' to mean 'during the time', and 'whilst' to mean 'whereas'.
But beware, I have heard that in some parts of England 'while' is understood to mean 'until', causing problems when motorists come to a railway crossing and see a sign saying 'DO NOT CROSS WHILE LIGHTS ARE FLASHING'.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 20 - 08:01 PM

While and whilst are interchangeable and are both correct. Towards and toward, similarly. Quite often, having a pet peeve about such things puts you in the category of grammar policeperson. Use the form you're most comfortable with, and raise barely an eyebrow at usage that doesn't align with yours. Whether you like it or not, language is wot people speak, not a bunch of rules penned by professors in ivory towers. The main issue to rail against in language is degradation, losing important nuances: you're bit of a tit if you say alternate when you mean alternative, for example. Oh, and pomposity, as exhibited by persons who talk about on a daily basis, at this moment in time, prior to, albeit and going forward...

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 11:18 AM

Let's not forget among and amongst. Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 11:47 AM

"Mean" is another word that the Americans seem to use differently. In the British Isles it's more likely to be about someone who is tight fisted, rather than hostile, or nasty (and sometimes seen as somewhat admirable for that).

Of course the American usage is understood and often enough used, but I think that's mostly because we're deluged by American movies and television from our childhood.
We don't need subtitles to follow even the weirdest American accents.

It's interesting how often the accent that journalists and such from other countries have acquired isn't English or American, it's Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Monique
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 12:17 PM

"It's interesting how often the accent that journalists and such from other countries have acquired isn't English or American, it's Irish.". This rings a bell to me Kevin, though I'm no journalist. I started learning English when I was 13, so it was British English. In 1972 we were involved in a students exchange between my teachers' training school and Madeley College of Education that no long exists now. I was told "You have an awful American accent!" (it wasn't a compliment!) though I'd never heard anybody speak American in my life -nor native English either actually! I supposed at that time it was due to my strong Southern French accent that makes my vowels more open than "France French" (read "Northern"). The first time I went to the US, my friend's husband said "You sound somewhat Irish." When I went to Ireland I was told "You sound somewhat American or Canadian". The next time I asked my friend's husband he burst out laughing and said "Now you just sound French!". I suppose I have created my own brand of English!

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 12:23 PM

I should have added that you can't use whilst as a verb or a noun. You can only while away the hazy, lazy crazy days of summer. And you can't be suspended from Mudcat for a short whilst. Otherwise, use 'em as you please, even if you risk annoying some yanks with "whilst..."

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: BobL
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 01:55 AM

Any possible mileage in "meanwhilst"?

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 03:44 AM

I never use 'whilst', always 'while', but I use both 'among' and 'amongst' as the fancy takes me.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 10:43 AM

"Dreamt" and "dreamed" are a curious pair. They mean the same, and both seem to get used equally in my experience, but they aren't always interchangeable. It'd feel completely wrong to sing "I dreamed I dwelt in marble halls" or "I dreamt a dream in times gone by".

You can even have both variants in the same song, but even though it wouldn't change the scansion it would't work to switch them round.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 10:46 AM

I had a French friend who learned American English in the deep South, and has what is basically a French accent in Southern American English, which does not sound as much like a French accent in regular English as it sounds just plain bizarre.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: leeneia
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 11:24 AM

One day my husband and I were driving through Mississippi, and we went through a decrepit Delta town where thin black men were lounging in front of a bar. Next door was a tidy shopfront with a lettering that said "Mid-South Electric Utilities."

That's when I realized that there is no such place as the deep south. The deep south is a construct of northern journalists, because when you live in the south, it's not deep at all, it's normal. Neither is there a darkest Africa, and I don't believe there is anywhere where Yankees live. (I would not use the phrase deep south when talking to a southerner. In fact, I do not use it at all.)

There's a story told in Milwaukee of a mother and daughter who were southerners and who heard a reference to a bar up north. "We thought we were up north!" But no, there's always somewhere further north with more snow and less sophistication which is truly up north.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Aug 20 - 09:28 PM

What are the boundaries of the *mean* south?

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 01:59 PM

That's why your Northern neighbours sing

"The True North strong and free!
From far and wide,
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee."

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 02:44 AM

English and American accents have changed beyond telling in the years I've been listening to them; Katherine Hepburn's upper-class American accent is now unrecognisable to the young, who think she's an American putting on an English accent, and World War Two radio announcers sound utterly different to their modern counterparts.

So saying that Scandinavians learn Received Pronunciation - the Oxford accent that became the standard sound of the British ruling class because it was the local accent of the area where they'd gone to boarding school since the 18th century - is only partly correct.

Whatever accent they're taught in school, anyone learning English now has the use of subtitled versions of Hollywood's cultural offerings, and it's standard practice to listen to programmes first with subtitles in your own language, then with English-language subtitles, so the accent you're receiving gradually moderates into mid-Californian.

There's also a certain amount of cross-infection between Europeans who speak English as a second language; listening to these people speaking of medical breakthroughs, European law, their local earthquake or whatever on TV, I notice that no Dutch or Scandinavian second-language-English-speaker can say a sentence without adding earnestly "for sure".

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 03:10 PM

I think Katherine Hepburn's "upper-class American accent" was completely fake. She was born in Connecticut, and if she had an accent, it would have been that annoying NE accent.

Possibly she spoke straightforward Transatlantic at home.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 03:13 PM

Wiki: "Raised in Connecticut by wealthy, progressive parents, Hepburn began to act while studying at Bryn Mawr College…"

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: meself
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 11:28 PM

My impression is that American actors of the Katherine Hepburn era and ilk were trained in a posh 'mid-Atlantic' accent.

The Canadian novelist Robertson Davies affected an Oxford accent so supercilious that a Canadian poet (Earl Birney?) claimed it made Englishmen feel "positively colonial".

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Thompson
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 04:45 AM

When silent movies ended and sound came in, English actors made their fortune teaching lads from Brooklyn and lasses from Schenectady how to speak like Englishmem and Englishwomen. But Hepburn is from a later era, and her accent was natural to her, as far as I know.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 09:55 PM

... and I'm still waiting to hear from Skarpi.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 11:27 AM

Cary Grant, the quintessential AmeriBrit accent.

I was in California and heard Phoenix, AZ referred to as Back East.


The Deep South is Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, Mississippi, and Louisiana. Not Florida, oddly enough.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Charmion
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 11:41 AM

Leeneia: "[T]here's always somewhere further north with more snow and less sophistication which is truly up north" -- We resemble that remark. Have you ever visited Brandon, Manitoba? Home of the Wheat Kings?

Katharine Hepburn spoke the dialect of the Broadway stage as it then was, designed not only to "cut the room" but also to convey an impression of languid superiority. The same dulcet tones can be heard in popular American films up to about 1945. Check out Myrna Loy and William Powell in any of the Nick and Nora Charles films, for example. The nasal element is more obvious in women's voices, perhaps to make their dialogue more audible.

It makes my ears squint.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 12:57 PM

Ha! I've even been north of Brandon - to Riding Mountain National Park and parts north. I have happy memories of that trip, including when our camper-trailer came loose from its hitch and set off down the Shell Valley without us. "Holy socks!" my father cried. (Dear man.)

Friendly Manitobans seemed to come out of nowhere. Somebody fetched the local farmer, and he kindly used his tractor to get the camper out of the ditch. We stayed in a motel that night (my first time in a motel or hotel) and watched a funny show on the BBC. We laughed our heads off.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 11:02 AM

In truth, Leeneia, the further north one travels, the less snow one gets, it's just that it starts earlier, ends later, and it's more persistent.

As for sophistication, our "speech is clean and single, [we] talk of common things—words of the wharf and the market-place, and the ware the merchant brings," but one cannot farm in a dry continental climate without some measure of it.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: meself
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 02:42 PM

I would say that Manitobans are the most reliably friendly people in Canada. Doesn't mean they don't have their share of psycho-killers - but they're friendly psycho-killers, which are the kind I like.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 04:30 PM

I am pleased to hear American spelling is not used.
The spelling of Capitalisation as used by one American [Capitalization] on this forum is in my opinion an abomination.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Aug 20 - 06:38 AM

Cary Grant, the quintessential AmeriBrit accent.

Wot? That lad from the areal of Brisel, and attended the same school as Nobel theoretical physicist Paul Dirac? Bishop Road Primary School.

And not Archie Leach's natural accent. Fer sure.

Ooh ar.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 20 - 07:05 AM

I always think that objections to American-English spellings carry the distinct whiff of British imperialism. Using z instead of s seems pretty logical to me, as the letter is pronounced z in the words that raise hackles here and there. And, as I understand it, many words with so-called American spellings actually began their lives on this side of the Atlantic spelled the American way. Admittedly, it would seem odd to adopt American spellings here, and teacher certainly wouldn't like it. It should be a case of when in Rome, and just enjoy life.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Aug 20 - 07:37 AM

A lot of people desiring to have their writing edited on the right-hand side of the Atlantic are now saying "I want it in American spelling", but leaving lots of the word in British spelling, and when queried about an individual word "Oh, I like it better spelled that way". A bit difficult as the editor can't use an automated spellcheck set to one or the other dialect.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 Aug 20 - 03:04 AM

Thompson - Purely because we are discussing pedantry ........... for dialect - read lexicon
one could have said dictionary but without the meanings that would be a misnomer too.
One reason English is so ubiquitous is that it has a rich lexicon.
The reason French is dubbed the diplomatic language (I have been told) is the smaller lexicon and the doubling-up of meanings allows it to say two things and keep two sides saving face.

Subject: RE: BS: English as taught in Nordic countries
From: Thompson
Date: 31 Aug 20 - 04:31 AM

Ah, nice! Thanks, Mr Red, I was hesitating a little over the word!