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The Key to All US war strategy
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:58 AM Guest: Time for all these things to happen is compromised when one leads with the fist. You can consult the art of war yourself but if you want literal war strategies HERE is one scenario. Slow down... secretly cease the expected counter attack...A quick reaction would serve our purposes best with a miniature defeat... listen and watch. They will become confused between overconfidence and fear of a belated reprisal causing some mistakes to be exploited. Monitor the reaction when they think there is no massive US reponse. If a call for fatwa occurs more clues will crawl out of the woodwork and we can collect strategic bonanzas. At home there needs to be good old fashioned systemic beurocratic work with complete cross over communication between the CIA Fullfill the capture of the leading criminals the tribunal granted public indictments for and call that a victory. The secret warrants may be done as best advantage allows. But like I said , I think its too late. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 22 Sep 01 - 01:18 AM The entire middle section of the prior post did not appear??? I do not know how this occured. Here is some of what was missing but it is late and a waste of time.
crossover comunication between the CIA..... |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 22 Sep 01 - 01:23 AM Again 4 essential paragraphs are all missing . I think use of the smaller than symbol is to blame. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: CarolC Date: 22 Sep 01 - 01:50 AM GUEST, Just a nobody,
The first and most important thing, in my opinion, is that at this moment in history, perhaps more than any other moment in history, we not only have the compassion and sympathy of much of the rest of the world, we also have their empathy. By that, I mean that they can, probably for the first time ever, see themselves in our shoes. This is very critical, and should not be wasted.
Because of this, they will very probably be willing to work with us and help us, as long as what we propose to do helps all of us. Most other countries probably won't have the burning desire or need for retribution that we have here. Most of them will probably be interested in solving the problem of terrorism, and no more. If we use our military might in a way that destabilizes countries that are crucial to this effort, at least one of which has nuclear weapons (Pakistan), the other countries in the coalition will probably recognize that they will not be helped in the long run by these military actions, that they may, in fact be hurt, and may remove themselves from the coalition.
I did a research paper about a year ago to find out what is the most powerful motivator for people. This was not research that originated with me. I was researching work that was done by others. What I found was that the most powerful motivator is what I would call "enlightened self-interest". By that I mean, people are motivated the most powerfully, and in the most lasting way when they understand how it is in their best interest to behave in a certain way. But what makes it enlightened self interest is the understanding of how what is in their best interest is also in the best interest of others. So, obviously I'm not talking about extortion. I mean people are motivated most powerfully by what is genuinely in their best interest.
If the US says, "You must do what we want or you will suffer in some way", that would be extortion. If we say, "We must work together to find a way to solve this problem in such a way that we all benefit", that would be motivating people through the use of enlightened self-interest.
Once we have built a coalition of willing participants that is based on the idea of enlightened self-interest, we determine what the benefits will be for all of the members of the coalition. The most obvious would be to protect all of us from terrorism. Even the banks will probably suffer in the long run if terrorism is allowed to destroy the economies of many of the richest nations on earth. So, even for the banks, there is an element of enlightened self-interest in helping to eliminate terrorism. In fact, it seems to me that there are probably very few groups, nations, or other interests who would benefit in the long run from allowing terrorism to continue or to flourish in the world.
If we put together such a coalition, we will need to identify what sort of actions would be detrimental to any of the members in the long run. One example of this would be if we caused, through military action in Afghanistan, destabilization in Pakistan resulting in an overthrow of the government now in place which is friendly to us at this time, by Muslim fundamentalists who are friendly with the Taliban. This, of course would be contrary to Pakistan's self-interest (as defined by the majority of people there at this time, which would likely change if we killed a lot of Afghanis), and it would also be contrary to our self-interest, because we would then have two enemies in the place of one, and one of them with nuclear weapons.
You see where I'm going with this. So we form a solid coalition. We work with the coalition as equals, rather than as an authority figure who says, "you're either for us or against us". Then, we put together the best minds that each of the countries in the coalition have at their disposal and formulate plans to use the tools at our disposal to find out who the terrorists are, and how leverage might be applied to dry up whatever resources they have to help them accomplish what they are trying to do. And whenever it is possible, try to take into custody important figures within the terrorist organizations only if doing so does not put any member/countries of the coalition in jeopardy in any significant way. It seems to me that the most important thing we can do to the terrorists is to remove their sting. Even if they are still walking the streets, if they are perceived as ineffectual and weak by the starry eyed youths whom they would want to recruit, would anyone want to join them, much less give up their life for them? Take away the glory and there is no point in any of it. We don't take away the glory by killing them or making them glorified prisoners. We take away the glory by making them ineffectual. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 01 - 07:53 AM If we can only kill that medicine man in that cave somewhere out in the badlands on the other side of the mountain, that will stop the man next door who admires him from burning my house down.
I'm not sure even General Custer would have bought that one. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 22 Sep 01 - 08:45 AM I'll try a 4th time Guest: Time for all these things to happen is compromised when one leads with the fist. You can consult the art of war yourself but if you want literal war strategies HERE is one scenario. Slow down... secretly cease the expected counter attack...A quick reaction would serve our purposes best with a miniature defeat... listen and watch. They will become confused between overconfidence and fear of a belated reprisal causing some mistakes to be exploited. Monitor the reaction when they think there is no massive US reponse. If a call for fatwa occurs more clues will crawl out of the woodwork and we can collect strategic bonanzas. At home there needs to be good old fashioned systemic beurocratic work with complete cross over communication between the CIA,FBI,IN,NSA,CC,DOD and others . Recruit the talent you need in cyber and cultural areas that was not available or willing to help us before the attack. Set them apart from in house pros and give them a progect similar in scope to WWII code breaking. Use time and sympathy of the International community well. There will be plenty of time through December and January for support to grow. Learn from the mistakes of the Gulf of Tokin resolution and get Congress to ask the hard questions as soon as possible. Blank checks are for blind policy. Appropriate with insight. In forming an international tribunal if the UN will not unaminously support a G5 request form a brand new tribunal consisting of Islmaic judges and near complete international representation , the obvious missing judges would be Isreal , India and perhaps even the US . IF a perception of a puppet or Kangaroo court occurs having the US publicly get denied select outrageous and reasonable requests should solve that. Go to the Hague or Nuremberg if we have to and set it up there. Based on the intelligence from the US ,interpole and others present the case for 2 years or more handing down public indictments that would not jeopardize the covert operations of sensitive secret indictments. As in magic , misdirection will be an advantage to get the terrorists not mentioned in the public indictments. If there is an international array of enforcment volunteers make sure they have clear cut warrants and single targets to capture. Make sure Islams know of bounties for certain indictments handed down so even a single modest man could be instrumental in handing over a terrorist. Choose your seasons and tides of PR well. Whatever help moderate cleriks can afford in the months prior to Ramadan and right after will probably be the maximum help they can ever produce. Link further extractions with the most favorable PR afforded by Islams themselves as well as bounties that serve Islam to capture Islam. Do not mix the various tribes of Islam when employing bounties. Like catchs like. Fomenting additional hatred between various branches of Islam is not to our advantage here for many reasons. Of course there are new weapons that can be used without knowledge to the outside world. Many of these as I will call them vibrational weapons are nearly non leathal and can be used with much stealth. Enough said.
Fullfill the capture of the leading criminals the tribunal granted public indictments for and call that a victory. The secret warrants may be done as best advantage allows. But like I said , I think its too late since after our rolling thunder air raid any number of crimes could be alleged against the US true or not |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 22 Sep 01 - 09:01 AM 9/22/01 Dear Friends, The drive across New Jersey has been the longest portion of this trip across America. It is only 60 miles to New York City and I am having trouble keeping my eyes open. I had just pulled off the road in Allentown, PA, to throw some cold water in my face. Kathleen and I have grown very silent. It is the dread of what is ahead. As we cross the George Washington Bridge into Manhattan, the plume of smoke from the lower part of the island hovers, bright blasting searchlights attempting to crash through it. The college radio station from Fordham is playing Dylan's "A Hard Rain's Gonna Fall." Instead of making the turn south to go home down the West Side Highway, I go north and head toward the town where our daughter goes to college. It is one in the morning, and when we arrive on campus we note that every single light in the dorms is on (when do these kids sleep?). We call Natalie and tell her we have made it home. She directs us to the nearest gate where she is with some other young women who are working on the school paper. We pull up, she comes out... and this is, as it always has been, the happiest moment of our lives. We hug her, and hug her again. She is happy to see us, and she generously, good-naturedly, tolerates our weepy parental doting. She is, after all, the only reason we have made this drive. Nothing else matters at this point. We eventually leave her to her own life and head toward New York City. It is now deep in the middle of the night and the radio plays "O Superman" by Laurie Anderson ("Here come the planes - - they're American planes!... hold me in your arms... your military arms...") and then the DJ says that he is going to play a song that they have never let him play before on the station. What an odd thing to announce, I think, considering we live in a free country where you can play whatever music you damn well please. I recall the email I received the night before from a radio station manager in Michigan. He passed on to me a confidential memo from the radio conglomerate that owns his station: Clear Channel, the company that has bought up 1,200 stations altogether -- 247 of them in the nation's 250 largest radio markets -- and that not only dominates the Top 40 format, but controls 60% of all rock-radio listening. The company has ordered its stations not to play a list of 150 songs during this "national emergency." The list, incredibly, includes "Bridge Over Troubled Water," "Peace Train," and John Lennon's "Imagine." Rah-rah war songs, though, are OK. And then there was this troubling instruction: "No songs by Rage Against the Machine should be aired." The entire works of a band are banned? Is this the freedom we fight for? Or does this sound like one of those repressive dictatorships we are told is our new enemy? The song the college DJ goes ahead and plays is, "Hey, War Pig," by Katrina and the Waves, and he dedicates it to the "all the war mongers out there." Yes, there is hope, the kids are all right. We arrive at our apartment building and I am too tired to drop the vehicle off at the rental car place, so we unload, head upstairs, and hit the sack. I awake at noon. A horrible stench has filled the apartment. I did not notice it a few hours earlier, but the winds have shifted. It is the odor others had warned me about. It is a smell I have never smelled. I am told by someone in the building that it is a combination of chemicals, rubber, sheetrock, and... he pauses. He does not want to list the final ingredient, and I do not want him to. I thank him and go back upstairs and close all the windows. I look at the cereal box I had left half-opened before our trip to L.A. I stare at this box for a long time. Nine days of ash has descended on the city. It is everywhere, microscopic, invisible, non-discriminatory in where it has landed. No part of the city is untouched, and all are treated equally to the smoke and stench, regardless of station in life. There is no way to turn away and ignore it. I take the rental car back. As I park it, I look across the street and see our neighborhood firehouse consumed in flowers and candles. "They lost nine firemen," the rental woman tells me. "It's a pretty sad place." There's a firehouse every few blocks in New York. Back in Michigan, I grew up across the street from a fire station and I have always loved the sound of that screeching siren. The (mostly) men who work down the street from us now in New York are our neighbors in the truest sense of the word. They are quintessential New Yorkers, right to the bone, and when they are called to do their job (for which they are grossly underpaid), they never stop for a moment to think of themselves. I always enjoy shooting the breeze with these guys, and when possible, I've put them on my show, as they are natural-born comedians and wiseguys. I have never once complained about the wail of their fire trucks as they barrel down my street. I walk across the street to pay my respects. A lone fireman spots me coming and approaches me, arms outstretched. He grabs me and hugs me. He says, "Mike, thanks, thanks for everything you do for the..." I am stunned and embarrassed by this, and I cut him off. "Stop," I say, "I haven't done shit. I am here to thank you and to tell you how horribly sorry I am..." He cuts me off. "Shutupwillya! Lemme say what I need to say..." He continues to thank me, I can't take this -- I HAVE DONE NOTHING BUT RETURN A DAMN RENTAL CAR -- and I break down in tears. "Oh, don't go gettin' mushy on me, Mike -- c'mon, we're Irish!" He laughs, I laugh, I grab him and hold him and these two big Irish lugs and crybabies make for quite a sight in the middle of a Manhattan street. Kathleen and I sign their book and we take down the name of the fund for the nine families of our neighbors. "Don't forget," our fireman friend says as we leave, "We need your prayers more than we need the donations." I cannot go to work. But I have a film to finish. Our editor has been unable to make it in from New Jersey, but he is there now waiting for some word on what to do. I can't even think about this movie. I don't WANT to think about it because if I think about it I will have to face an ugly truth that has been gnawing through my head... This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! -- I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing? My wife does not want to go down to the memorial to the victims that has spontaneously taken over Union Square in the Village -- she is still in too much shock having returned to this sullen city -- but she encourages me to go, and I do. The Square is filled with hundreds of people. But, more importantly, the walls and fences around Union Square are covered in a blizzard of "MISSING" posters of loved ones. Thousands of handbills, flyers, photos, notes -- all pleading to contact them should anyone know the whereabouts of their mother, father, son, daughter, infant. Yet, all of us who stare at these faces, we know their "whereabouts." And the smoke, the ash, the odor is much thicker down here, just 20 blocks from The Site. The faces of the victims, culled from wedding photos, birthday party home videos, vacation snapshots, are striking in their diversity. Easily, the majority are African-American, Arabic, Hispanic, Asian, Jewish. Their jobs at the World Trade Center are listed. They were clerks, secretaries, janitors, security guards, assistants, dishwashers, waitresses, receptionists -- all the people who HAVE to be at work first thing in the morning, the lower wage workers. The wall is also filled with the faces of brokers, lawyers, managers, accountants, insurance agents -- it is endless, it is everyone, it is America. I am told that there may be over 500 "illegals" -- those less-than-minimum wage workers that the commerce of America depends on -- who are also among the dead, but there are no photos of them. Citizens from over 80 countries are victims of this attack and, remarkably, the country that seems to have the most people who were killed is the Muslim country of Pakistan. For two hours I walk through Union Square, listening to the debates that rage in various small circles, between hippies and Army guys, Israelis and Palestinians, those for war and those against. They are heated, passionate -- but never do I sense the threat of violence between them. No police are in sight. "We are self-policed," one kid tells me. Others are singing or rapping, many are quietly crying. I leave and go down to Canal Street. It is as far as they will allow civilians to go. The odor is now nearly unbearable. I tell the officer I would like to volunteer, to do anything that is needed -- carry buckets, lift, haul, relieve, whatever. He tells me that no more volunteers are needed. He says that, right now, they do not expect to find anyone alive. The job they are doing is one of recovery of the dead and the removal of all the steel and concrete, and they have left these jobs to the professionals. I can't help but think they could still use an extra pair of hands -- surely, at least ONE person could still be alive! I remain upset and appalled that Wall Street has ordered its employees back to work -- to trade stocks! -- next-door to a mass, open graveyard of yet unburied bodies. How cruel is this to the workers who must walk by, or to the dead who are treated to this sacrilege? And, in my mind, what IF someone was still down there alive? How can you be running around a stock market floor when you should be on your hands and knees digging out the possible survivors? I just don't get it... As I sit here in the early morning hours of Saturday, September 22, 2001, I cannot untangle much of the past 24 hours. I am exhausted from the trip, from all that has hit me upon returning to New York. I have to unpack eventually. What was it exactly I had packed all these bags for in the first place? Oh, yeah, The Emmys in L.A! Big friggin' deal now, eh? I tick off the list of everything that no longer matters. I watch Bush speak in front of Congress, but I cannot answer him right now, I am tired. The mayor has drastically upped the death toll. My phone rings off the ... whatever phones ring off of these days. Calls from the BBC, CBC, Canal+, ABC (Australia), Swedish TV, Dutch TV -- all want me to appear live on their national primetime newscasts. Not a single American network has called. Frankly, I don't want to be on anybody's TV show no matter where they are from, but I cannot help but feel this sinking feeling in my gut that the rest of the world wants to hear what I have to say, yet in my own country, I am to have no voice in the media (other than through these letters on the Web). This is MY country. I love MY country. Every channel and it's the same damn repetitive drumbeat WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR... And yet, I have just driven 2,944 miles, a drive that began on the corner of Wilshire and the Pacific Ocean in Santa Monica, California. I have heard the voices of the scores of fellow Americans I met, the average Joes and Janes, who are NOT screaming WAR WAR WAR! Why can't their voices be heard? Forget about me, I can barely utter a sentence anyway; I don't wanna go on no TV. But where is Noam Chomsky, or Howard Zinn, or the editors of "The Nation" or "Tikkun" or "The Progressive" or the thousands of college kids who protested at noon on Thursday on 148 American campuses? Don't they count? Is this still the America we believe in, the one we are being asked to defend? Coming home tonight, I noticed a strange sound in the city. I did not hear a single car horn being honked! I have never heard that sound in New York City. No one was yelling, it was quiet and peaceful. I called my dad on my cell phone. He tells me of things getting even worse back home in Flint, the city now bankrupt, the state preparing to take it over. The fire department has had to lay off over 50% of its firefighters. Fires now are just allowed to burn because they have neither the trucks nor the people left to fight them. Then he said, "Mike, that guy you call 'The Boss' -- he's singing right now on TV!" The nationwide telethon for the September 11th victims has started. I could hear Bruce Springsteen singing in the background. My father (bless him and his Big Band soul at the age of 80!) knows how much I love Bruce and says, "let me hold the phone up close to the set so you can hear him," and he does, and I hear Springsteen sing these haunting words: "My city is in ruins, my city is in ruins... c'mon, rise up!" I love my dad and my mom, my sisters, my wife and my daughter, and I am grateful for this life and for the privilege I've been given to live it with all of them. I come upstairs and Kathleen and I watch the rest of the telethon. Neil Young appears at one point, alone at the piano, and he does not sing one of his own songs. Rather, he sings the banned "Imagine." The Walrus had to have loved that one from where he was watching! My wife looks over at me. The tears won't leave my eyes. I tell her what I was told today. "Woody (our assistant editor) saw a rescue truck going down the West Side Highway to help in the relief effort," I tell her. "On the side of the truck, it read 'FFD.'" The Flint Fire Department. All the way from our home. To our home. It was more than either of us could bear. Yours, Michael Moore |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: kendall Date: 22 Sep 01 - 10:44 AM Guest nobody, I have not seen anything posted about us just "walking away", and all those meaningless remarks about "touchy feely" do nothing to add to your credibility. What I, and, many others, advocate is to use our F.....g heads! Remember the Neanderthals? their only weapon was a club. Then along comes Cro-Mangon with his superior intelligence, and poof, no more Neanderthals. Any idiot can react like a friggin' slug when you pour salt on it. This calls for surgery, not Gallagher! |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: GUEST,just a nobody Date: 23 Sep 01 - 09:39 PM Took me a little bit to catch back up on the posts... Sorry. Where to start... CarolC: Very good ideas, but here is where we differ. In this situation, time is critical. We have already laid the groundwork for a coalition, but with everyday that passes there is something more that can go wrong. Sanctions, political preassure, economic and civil aid have, and are already in use. One problem with the coalition idea. You will never get all nations to join it. Just like on Mudcat, different beliefs, political ideals, even environments differ enough that a solid consensous is not possible. One weakness, sanctions (political force, monitary with holdings or whatever) have been used in the past and is one of the reasons people use to justify the attack against the US. That is the only reason that I am unsure as to the success of the coalition idea. Right now we have formed a coalition of nations that know they could be the next ones struck, or we have lightened up on enough that they will reluctantly side with us on this. That will not last long, so what do we do now? Your idea is great, but I fear the time is far too short for such things now. Perhaps if we had started this 10 or 20 years ago it would be in place now. That is if a coalition could hold itself together for that length of time as equals. DON: Just as with Carol, how long. Right now we know that at least one other plane was supposed to have been hijacked, That means one cell is still out and about. How long before they gather back up their resources and strike again? You mention bounties. What do you suppose would happen when people start collecting those bounties? Will they be as rational as yourself and wait? Will they strike back at us quickly, or wait five years, letting us think the danger is past? Kendell: Ahhh... but comments like 'WarMongers' add to other peoples credibility? So, I will ask you the same question, given what we know about the situation, what would you do? I'm assuming from your post that you believe that we are not using our 'F***ing' heads already. Personally I think we have used incredible restraint, while preparing to use force if needed. So what are you advocating? What have we done wrong and what do you think would fix it? So far, except from CarolC and Don I have only heard bashes against the president. So again, state your objections and point out a good way to correct. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:52 PM Guestjust, I am disappointed your contribution was but a mere blurb of cursory responses to comprehensive outlines of policy. For you to assume the role of a moderator you need not have an editorial of your own but to seemingly not note the insights and true nature of what is said, falls short of an engaging moderator. To question policy regarding meeting the demand that Osama has demanded the US leave its military base in Saudi Arabia would have been a good begining for you. Instead you were essentially the invisible calling the vague , transparent. It is a sworn holy duty for Osama disciples to learn cyber and internet skills to perfection. Monitoring such thread titles as this one would not be out of the question. To imagine there are tens of thousands of such conversations as this to monitor is also probably true. Seeing that I have identified myself right down to address and phone number , just who are you ? If you hesitate to honestly reply , who do you want us to think you are? |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: InOBU Date: 24 Sep 01 - 08:26 AM Point of fact about my dear friends the Neanders... I have spent a lot of time doing skulptures of Neanders, and visiting their houses, now that they are no longer home, though, I would love to have found them, by their fires in France and Spain. I have examined the injuries to their extemities that they experienced from their rather direct, most likely and guileless hunting methods. Well, the evidence does not show them to have been killed off by modern man, no evidence points to this anywhere. They did not just carry clubs, Mousterian culture had not invented the bi-valve tool, as far as we know, but they did make somewhat complex tool and seemed to apreciate some forms of symbolic representation. I believe that what killed them off was their lack of great curiosity. They apparently lived for thousands of years in the same spots, the same family groups occupied the same caves for generations for hunderds of years. Well, it is more likely that our strenth was our highly developed immune system from travelling everywhere. We met others and developed very complicated immune systems. Now dear frined what does this mean for those calling for war? If you sojourn out among the people's of the world, you may learn the folly of reacting like a primitive, you are hit with a club and you hit the hitter and his mother and brother. We in lower Manhatten see the folly of this thinking. Go to Isreal, see the outcome of such foolishness. Put down the club and use your head. End the practice of anonimous banking (and posting! :-) ...) The real problem is the Cayman Islands and the Swiss, their banking systems make funding terror possible. Get out in the world, and don't think so badly of Neanders, I for one am rather fond of them, and believe they may have been much more gentle than many folks emagine. Cheers, Larry |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: GUEST,just a nobody Date: 24 Sep 01 - 08:27 AM Don, Sorry my reply dissapointed you, I have been tied up with personal matters. My five year old was sick, my wife was on her last nerve, so I was also trying to relieve her of the responsibilities of a two month old. My response was quick because I didn't really have alot of time to respond, more just a way to refresh it and collect some thoughts. First, I am assuming no role as a moderator, If I was I would be between two people in a debate. Instead, I am merely asking questions as to what can be done. People seemed very intent on saying we were not thinking but applying little to go along with it. I simply asked the question to clarify what people would have us do. I will look for holes in arguments, I always have. So please do not think I am some self appointed moderator. As to the points you made. Yes very good ideas. Most of which are already in the works. Better communication between intelligence branches and better access to that information from places that need it. I can't help but think that the reason we hadn't already implemented this before is due to privacy issues. I may be wrong, but that would be a political time bomb prior to this. There is a coalition in the works, and we are trying to gain support still. I know this is not the sort of coalition that you were refering to. My concern would be with time. I don't know that you could implement a tribunal fast enough to be effective in this situation. Any group of nations rarely holds itself together for long. The UN is fairly ineffective against the US. And I am not sure why a new group would be any different. I follow your logic, but do you really think that nations can completely put aside thier culture, and environmental needs to form a conglomeration? I don't see the middle-east and the US having too many things in common. The things we take for granted, they see as luxery. What happens when there is a disagreement in this group? My editorial... :) While peace is prefered over war, what is the answer now? We are still reeling over the WTC blows, or economy is unstable. There was no announced provication to this attack, just as there was none with the Cole, or the embassies that had been attacked. A wait and see what they do is a dangerous game. The enemy does not announce his intentions. This is different from most terrorist action against the US. No demands had been made, no ultimatum, and no claim of responsibility. Waiting can allow other cells to sight new targets. Bin Ladin is now 'missing' so what can of damage can he do now? How long do we wait and see? If (God forbid) another attack comes, will we still wait and see? When does diplomicy end, when does an attack demand retaliation? Just as I don't think that war should be a first option, I don't think use of force should be ruled out as an option. Your ideas are sound, but I wonder how much further this will go before you would say, "Ok... now it's time to kill him, and any that harbor him?" As I said, I am no moderator. Never claimed to be. I just get really nearvous when I am considered a War Monger because I believe that military action may be needed, and we had best be prepared. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 24 Sep 01 - 10:08 AM The points of OB are well taken. If I may take a section of your metaphoric discussion of the Neanders, I would like to speak of them literally. I am not a genetic anthropologist but 30 years ago I saw an actual physiologic throw back of a Neander in Lackawanna NY. The brow, the nose, the body all were a dead ringer. It was so profound a sight I recall it clearly today. The individual was a ruddy caucasion in color and gentle in disposition. I was wondering about the DNA traces of Neander in modern humans as a result of seeing this person. A quasi related observation is that modern humans with one extra chomosome (downs syndrome) are the most gentle kind people I have ever met. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: CarolC Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:56 PM GUEST, Just a nobody, I have a pretty fundamental disagreement with you about in what ways time is a critical factor.
I think time is a critical factor in terms of the US getting its act together in terms of improving security and other safety measures in air travel. I think time is critical in terms of getting our intelligence agencies functioning effectively. I think time is critical in terms of any number of ways that have nothing to do with military actions. However, I think, and I believe that prior experience bears this out, that with regard to the use of force, hasty action in a situation like this one only causes more problems than it solves in the long run. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: DougR Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:18 AM The best thing I've read on this thread is the suggestion that Donuel, who obviously sees himself as the 21st Century's Groucho Marx, and Larry get together for a drink. Just one serious comment, actually a question. Carol: you seem to be hung up on the word "hasty." You've used it in several posts if I remember correctly. Does that mean you would not object to force, should the administration deem it necessary, if it was not done in haste? DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: CarolC Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:55 AM These are the conditions under which I, personally, would consider the possibility of the use of force...
1. That, once having formed a coalition with as many countries as possible, there is unanimous agreement on the use of force. In the absense of a coalition, that force is only used if all of our allies agree to it.
2. That any use of force is directed by either the UN, or a body appointed by the coalition consisting of members from all of the nations within the coalition.
3. That all other options have been exhausted prior to resorting to the use of force. 4. That force is only used if it will not cause the destabilization of any country that has a government who is friendly to us or who is willing to help us. 5. That force is used only for strategic purposes, and not in order to demonstrate the superiority of the US over any other nation. 6. That only the absolute minimum amount of force needed to accomplish the goal is used. 7. That the use of force will not set in motion any events that will cause more problems for us in the long run. 8. That the use of force is only for the purpose helping to solve the problem of terrorism, and not for any other purposes (such as to promote a particular political system, or in order to give certain industries a boost) There may be others, but that's what comes to mind right now. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: CarolC Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:56 AM Also, that it would not be for the purpose of retribution, revenge, to make an example of anyone, or to teach anyone a lesson. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: GUEST Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:06 AM Well thought and well stated CarolC... after this "war" has defined President Bush's first four years in office, and the funds to maintain it have dug deep into the purse of the American consumer - In 2004 the candidates running against Bush would do well to adopt your criteria as the platform for when the use of force is acceptable. Or, perhaps...if you had political aspirations of your own? Being President is a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it. Here's a blast from the past: What if they gave a war and nobody came? |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: GUEST,Frank Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:13 AM One of the political actions that must be taken is to help unite the Muslim community worldwide in their rejection of the perversion of their religion. This is crucial. Rather than deal with the concept of vague "terrorism", it would be better to identify the malevolent perverts of Islam and to keep them from destroying this faith. Bin Laden lays claim to a "moral imperative" which can be unmasked for the violent and crude ascension of political power that it is. It's time for the Muslim community to reclaim their faith and turn their backs on those who would desecrate their religion. Hitler did the same thing to pervert socialism. Bin Laden and his followers are doing it to Islam. This is a contest of competing ideologies which make the use of weaponry impotent. Unmasking the perverts of Islam is the real target. Bin Laden and followers are harboring a form of insanity. Ultimately, they can't win because their victory of intimidation and repression is unlivable. The wisdom of women who are imprisoned beneath their burquas is a potential political force. Their victimization can be turned into action. Frank
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Troll Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:14 AM Too late GUEST. One side is already here and the first shot has been fired. (Actually, it was fired at the Marine Barracks in Lebanon but poetic license and all that...) troll |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:39 AM Bush let the word CRUSADE slip out of his mouth. 'Loony bin' Laden latched onto it and is not letting go. A crusade or fatwa would supply the ongoing recruits Laden hopes for. IT does not seem that this is going to ahppen as he desired. There are many goals to accomplish but to meet a loon's crusade with a crusade to match is to be discouraged. Whatever discension from within we will welcome if it is men, women or children. My wife tells me that Mohammad was pushed by his wife to establish Islam. Perhaps women will help restor it to sanity. I have never read the Koran but I am sure there are lofty goals that are compatible with this century. Here are some obvious goals we can agree upon. Freedom from want for everyone anywhere in the world is a lofty goal. Freedom of speech and expression for everyone in the world is an honest goal. Freedom for anyone to worship as they please anywhere in the world is a desireable goal although some religious dogma has a built in destruct mechanisms. To be free from fear anywhere in the world is our current goal. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Troll Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:48 AM Wrong-o don. Bin Laden used the phrase "Israeli- Crusade in his 1996 "Ladenist Epistle". Bush's use of the word is unfortunate but the terrorists were already using it to get recruits in '96.Click here scroll down to the picture of bin Laden and go from there. troll |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:21 PM Troll , the reference was made to the word crusade in Laden's letters that were received yesterday. Hmm now what else was wrong, oh yes I said something about a multi faceted front when what I was searching for was an analogy that would fit such as "never attack Russia in the winter". How do we recieve Loony bin Laden letters, by FAX? |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: GUEST,Osama bin Laden Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:26 PM Greetings from my cave, We take great comfort in knowing that you some of you Americans hate each other much more than you hate us. That's why it's so easy to send our martyrs to kill you all. ObL
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:28 PM I saw the shock in Bush's eyes when he heard himself say the word Crusade ,as if he was told over and over to not say the word Crusade. Do not think of a pink elephant for that regard. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: DougR Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:42 PM CarolC: Those are well thought out, well stated, position points. I suspect you will, in fact, be disappointed because I don't believe the plan you map out will be followed. You certainly put a lot of thought in your reply to me, and I appreciate it. Maybe we ARE seeing the launching of a political career, as Guest suggests! I, for one, would not want to see the United States turn over it's security to any UN command, but if you are comfortable with that, so be it. The terrorist attack was not directed at the UN, it was directed at America. They could have hit the UN building rather than the WTC or the Pentagon had they chosen to do so. They didn't. DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: CarolC Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:14 PM If we want the world to fight this war on terrorism with us, we need to make sure that the 'war' is administered by the same world. We cannot do it by ourselves if we want to keep a coalition. But I suspect you are probably right that my criteria will not be followed. However, I never expected that they would be. I was just answering a question. As far as running for political office is concerned, I seriously doubt that would be possible. For one thing, I'm way too short. And I really hate to lie. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:09 PM You're also not nearly rich enough, Carol. Monetarily speaking, that is... And you're female. Ain't a dog's chance in hell that the Redemocrapublicants would take a chance on you for a presidential candidate. Neither of 'em would. - LH |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: CarolC Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:28 PM Well that's a relief, LH ;-) |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: DougR Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:43 PM L.H. How insensitive of you! First you insult rich folks (she could never be elected without them) and then you insult women! The latter is the most serious of course. You're a brave man Little Hawk. CarolC: the world is not going to administer the war against terriorism. Terriorism didn't JUST happen, as you know. It has been a part of the world for a long time. When it hit the United States (it had before but it wasn't in the United States so everybody wrung their hands but did nothing because it was not on U.S. soil) it became real to Americans and it was the "last straw." Who has the money to defeat the terrorists? Who has the manpower, technology, and equipment to do it? Who can organize the consortium that will make it possible? (Never mind why) Who has the will? If you answer any country other than the U. S., then ...I guess we will have something else to talk about. DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:56 PM Carol, Even if you did run they would simply attack your spouse. Remember Ferraro? (not that Ferraro was a great statesman to begin with) I heard some talk of a tribunal by Rumsfeld . Combined with the coalition suggested here it looks like the administration was reading this thread :-) |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: CarolC Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:01 PM This last attack on the WTC was hardly our first experience with terrorism on our own soil, or against our citizens or property on foriegn soil. Our response to these attacks in the past has not been to just wring our hands. Our response in the past has been to drop a few bombs on someone. And the result of these responses has not been an end to terrorism. It has been that the attacks have increased in severity. And my answer to your last paragraph is not the US. My answer is that no nation can do such a thing alone. We can only do it with the help of most of the rest of the world. And they with us. What has changed hasn't been just the fact that the US was bombed. What has changed is that much of the rest of the world sees themselves in our tragedy, and they have the same desire to solve the problem as we do. They understand, as some of us in the US do, that we have to do this together if we want it to get done. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: CarolC Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:04 PM Well, Donuel, first I would need to have a spouse for them to attack. ;-) (...but I'm still not running) |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:08 PM AMERICA NEEDS A "DATING" CANDIDATE (that is not already married - what a switch) That is PR you can not buy ;-) |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: CarolC Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:13 PM *G* |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: DougR Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:03 AM True, Carol, there was the attack on the WTC in 1993. I wonder why there was no effort at that time to build a coalition, and a declaration of war against terrorism launched? The only time I remember missiles being launched was when Clinton got his hand caught in the "cookie jar," so to speak. Your post above, I assume, is intended as a reply to my post of 10:43 P.M. If so it obviously impressed Donuel, but it seems pretty general to me. I don't see any definitive answers to the questions posed in my last paragraph. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: CarolC Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:17 AM Sorry DougR. It's the best I can do tonight. I think the reason things are different this time is because it's the first time that we actually have no other choice. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: CarolC Date: 26 Sep 01 - 01:32 AM Actually, though, DougR, I think maybe it's your turn to back up your assertions with some credible documentation. You have said that the only time missiles were launched was when Clinton got his hand caught in the cookie jar. That sounds like an editorial statement to me. My recollection is that missiles were launched by Clinton after a plot to kill President Bush was uncovered, after the first bombing of the WTC, and also after the bombings of the embassies. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: DougR Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM Yes, you are correct, CarolC, I was editorializing and that was not a fair thing to do. I'm sure you are correct. DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:37 PM All the people on the PA hijacking will be getting Congressional medals of honor, just as I had hoped. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 26 Sep 01 - 08:47 PM More war strategies: Since we can not write our hate and anger on a piece of ice and wait for the sun to melt it , or wait for an all inclusive global tribunal to educate the world and legitimize all actions as much as possible . The racist terrorists that want our destruction ,as Bush said 'verbatim' today, "have misunderestimateded the United States of America". I do not underestimate the brazen foolishness of GW. In fact.... I do not think this conflict will remain conventional. Everyone turned up the volume today. Bush said he wanted bin Laden's blood. The Italian president claimed Western culture is superior to Islamic culture and they deserve to be destroyed. Almost all Pakistanis are said to believe Isreal did the WTC attack to provoke the US to attack Islam in their behalf. Once one Arab is felled by a US bullet Arabs will claim it to be thousands. Fatwa will ensue no matter what the facts are or how careful the US will try to be. Against the ever increasing waves of zealots the use of US nuclear weapons will seem no more provovative that what we will already be facing. Perhaps this will happen right after another domestic attack against the US. This will be reason enough to expect terrorism into the future for as long as Jews and Arabs have already been at war. (a verry long time) Unless there is a miracle of diplomacy... ? The nukes may be strategic neutron or tiny one kiloton versions to start. After all, China and Pakistan will be watching for a big one. It sounds like Bush has already put nukes on the table. Anyone willing to say he won't use them within the year? Or do you think he will heed Rumsfeld's advice which is the kind of caution I have been talking about?
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Troll Date: 26 Sep 01 - 09:02 PM Since we have no idea what bin Laden & Co. will do next , thus setting up a totally new equation to be solved, NO BET! troll |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Amos Date: 27 Sep 01 - 12:30 AM Sometimes I wish they had sent one tiny little kiloton into that national convention of the Taliban last week. But that's just when i'm feeling mad about the images of valuable working productive people jumping out of buildings unnecessarily... |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:05 AM Maybe it is bigotry but the pictures of the Taliban convention looked like a Hobbit convention of trolls. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Donuel Date: 27 Sep 01 - 01:58 PM All-Out US Assault Hawks Forced To Retreat By Richard Norton-Taylor The Guardian - London 9-27-1 A day after the terrorist attacks on the US, senior defence sources were predicting a massive attack on Afghanistan, including missile strikes and ground troops. A contingency plan had been dusted off, they said, involving "the cooperation of surrounding countries to the north of Afghanistan". A few days later, the sources were not so sure. There was an argument in Washington, they said, between the hawks and the doves, between those pressing for an immediate assault on Afghanistan - and possibly Iraq as well - and those urging caution, proposing a careful, "intelligence-led" military operation. As the days passed with no military action, it became clear that the hawks - led by Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, and his deputy Paul Wolfowitz - had been convinced by the doves, led by Colin Powell, the US secretary of state, supported by Condoleezza Rice, President Bush's national security adviser. Their strongest argument was the need to build as broad an international coalition as possible in what Mr Bush's advisers and Washington spokesmen increasingly described as a long-term "war on terrorism". Mr Powell, a former chief of the US armed forces, was also well aware of the dangers of sending in ground troops and the ineffectiveness of ill-considered air strikes. "We were bouncing rubble with billion-dollar missiles," he said after the 1991 Gulf war. He was also well aware of the futility of firing a few cruise missiles at a number of Bin Laden training camps in south-east Afghanistan - the tactic adopted by President Clinton following the attacks on US embassies in east Africa in 1998. The military options are reflecting political and diplomatic priorities - in London as well as Washington - and what defence sources call the need to achieve "outcomes". The first is to try to find Bin Laden and his circle in Afghanistan. That relies on good intelligence, from spy satellites but also from the ground. The only people who can do this - apart from the unlikely presence of spies in Bin Laden's camp - are special forces. The SAS and US special forces, notably its Delta Force, will play a potentially crucial role in the forthcoming military campaign. Good intelligence is also the key to avoiding civilian casualties. Special forces can guide pilots to fixed targets and report the movement of people. The SAS - which in the 1980s was heavily involved with the mojahedin of what is now the Northern Alliance, may well be benefiting from its help now. However, the alliance, supported by Russia, is strongly opposed by Pakistan, whose discreet intelligence help US and British forces need and are almost certainly already getting. Military planners, as well as diplomats, are extremely sensitive to the need to avoid exacerbating relations between Russia and Pakistan. There is little doubt that military operations in Afghanistan will involve air strikes against Bin Laden camps and the Taliban's military bases. They are also likely to precede the deployment of hundreds of US - and possibly British - airborne troops whose job could be to hold such bases as Bagram airport north of Kabul. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Troll Date: 27 Sep 01 - 10:58 PM Watch it, fella! Us trolls resent your implication. Any more posts like that and we'll have the Troll Anti-Defamation League come and ... well, you won't like it, what we'll do. troll |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Troll Date: 27 Sep 01 - 11:06 PM I have just been advised by the TADL's law firm, Over, andover, and Dover, to retract the last part of the third sentence of the last post to wit: "well, you won't like it, what we'll do." I hereby retract it. troll ***don't see why I can't say it. It's the truth. Turn over his house or his car. Teach him to diss us trolls. mumble, mumble, gripe. |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: Amos Date: 28 Sep 01 - 12:21 AM "S okay, troll -- we already don't like it!! A |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: DougR Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:16 AM Donuel: are you sure all of the folks are going to receive Congressional Medals of Honor? I sort of doubt that, but I'd be interested in seeing your source. Maybe a Congressional Medal of Freedom or something like that, but the Congressional Medal of Honor is presented to those who perform extraordinary deeds of herorism in battle. I could be wrong, but I don't think a civilian has ever been awarded one. DougR |
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Subject: RE: The Key to All US war strategy From: CarolC Date: 28 Sep 01 - 02:29 AM Maybe it is bigotry but the pictures of the Taliban convention looked like a Hobbit convention of trolls.
--Donuel The whole 'free speech' thing notwithstanding, I do think there is a big difference between saying something because it's worth saying, and saying something just because you can. |
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