BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 07:59 PM

Carol C: Agreed---we humans are basically inhuman. We live, however, in the current time and cannot pick the Intefada, for example, as the starting point for a discussion. We could use Balfour, we could use the U N (1948), we could use all the other dates I had mentioned but it brings us back to the need for compromise.   Which, in turn, brings us back to intansigence on both sides---except for Rabin. But, who,I ask rhetorically, fouled the peace plan---forget the assasin now.   Does Arafat ring a bell?   

Someone on this thread mentioned that he is a "moderate"--I believe. Right!!   A moderate carries a pistol into the UN to show his machismo. A moderate tolerates the Olympic terrorism.   So--now, we are back to tit for tat and the chicken and egg question. Though I will say that buildings are less important than human lives---say athletes, say innocents at a bus stop, and so on.

The point I am trying to make is that it would be nice if if the moderates on both sides could win the day. Sadly, however, that does not seem to be happening. It also makes me believe that Israel/Palestine/Middle East situations will not be resolved so easily given that our own government will play the political game that serves the party in power's agenda. SO--let me not get into W and Iraq. Part of the problem. Hardball politics all around--as always--and not any kind of idealistic thought in sight.   I will, finally, add that Sharon (as I said before) is no saint. But, given, what happened to all the peace overtures that Arafat has rejected and renegged on, given all the innocents killed by suicide bombers (trained by and indoctrinated at a young age by Palestinians), and given the hardships placed on the only democracy in that sad area I, sadly, add that perhaps a strong hand is called for.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:35 PM

No, Bill. It wasn't Arafat who fouled the peace plan. Israel was supposed to stop building settlements and to begin removing them. Not only did they not do any of that, they increased the rate at which they increased settlement expansion. There was a two year period during which the Palestinians had some hope that the Oslo process would bring them independence when, according to Yitzhak Rabin, no Israelis were killed by PLO terrorism.

But it eventually became very clear to the Palestinians that Israel had no intention of ending the occupation or even to stop building settlements. Then Isreali soldiers fired with live amunition against Palestinians demonstrators armed only with rocks, killing several of them and wounding many others. And that was the start of the second Intifada.

Here's what Shimon Peres had to say about it on September 24, 2001:

"We have a skeleton, we didn't complete the house. The Oslo agreement has had a rather short occasion to implement itself, and that was between 1993 and 1996. The Oslo agreement was stopped in 1996 when the government in Israel was changed and Mr. Netanyahu became the Prime Minister."

But as the material I posted above shows, from the perspective of the Israelis, even Oslo wasn't ever really intended to result in an independent state for the Palestinians.

As far as the myth of Arafat "walking away from Barak's generous offer" is concerned, the offer was in no way generous, and it was Barak who ended the talks at Taba.

And contrary to what you, and it would appear, many other people seem to think, I have no need to dwell on who is responsible for what. What I am saying is that Israel should stop using a fictional historic narrative in order to justify the further subjugation, and/or expulsion of the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:39 PM

"Harball politics all around--as always-- and not any kind of idealistic thought in sight."

Well said, Bill.

As the world's remaining super power would you agree that the United States is, or was proior to the invasion of Iraq, in a unprecedented position to "make a difference"?

Yet, the United States, who Harari thinks "gets it" has not done much into the way of out-of-the-box thinking here recently to cerry mankind further down the road but has fallen deeper into "hardball politics". I don't think that is "getting it".

Now I am no Bill Clinton lover but, IMHO, he somewhat "got it" about the Middle East. Had the Bush folks not been so intent on doing everything the opposite from the Clinton folks we would be having a different discussion today.

We have had opportunities to box the combatents into their own corner and force them to think out of the box. The Saudi Porposal that the Bush Administration rejected was one such opportunity. We may not get many more such oppotunities to short circuit what I agree with Harari is quickly becoming World War III.

But its still not too late to pull out of this but we're not going to do it with more hardball...

I cannot agree that in a tribalized world where you evn see the bad guys seeing in the streets wearing Niki's that there isn't room for success of an entity such as a cabinet level Department of Peace with enough of an asvertising budget to make a difference. Folks have pointed out that peace is not profitable and inside the box it may not be...

But outside???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:42 PM

Carol:   What can I say? Bombast wins the day.   Let us go back to before 1948. Let us go back to JNF land purchase that is abrogated by terrorist Palestinians. Let us go back to the Romans. Let us go back to the Big Bang and wonder what will happen with our humanity afterwards.

         In truth this discussion is leading nowhere since, unlike the the "peacenicks" no one here seems to want to see the other point of view. I did try in my earlier posts.   By the way---Big Bang---no pun intended. Have to watch one's words here---given sensitivity and paranoia.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:47 PM

Bobert, ol' buddy, don't go praisin' that Bill Clinton feller. I hear tell he's thrown his lot in with them that think AIDS comes from HIV.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:48 PM

What's your problem with just ending the occupation, Bill H? Is it that you don't want to give up on the idea of "Greater Israel"?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:49 PM

Heard a report on the news today that Arafat himself was an investor in the Palestinian cement company that was selling cement to Israel to build the wall.

Talk about a corrupt, two faced bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:49 PM

Another CarolC and the Palestinians. Go there and help them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:54 PM

"The Palestinian people accepted the Oslo agreements as a first step and not as a permanent settlement, based on the premise that the war and struggle in the land is more efficient than a struggle from a distant land [i.e. Tunisia, where the PLO was based before Oslo -Ed] ... the Palestinian people will continue the revolution until they achieve the goals of the '65 revolution...".

[P.A. Minister of Supply Abd El Aziz Shahian, Al Ayyam, 30 May 2000]

[The "'65 Revolution" is the founding of the P.L.O. and the publication of the Palestinian charter that calls for the destruction of Israel via an armed struggle.]

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:55 PM

"At this stage we'll prevail in our struggle [toward] the goals of the stages [plan]. The goal of this stage is the establishment of the independent Palestinian State, with its capital in Jerusalem. When we achieve this, it will be a positive [step] and it will advance us to the next stage via other ways and means... 'Every Palestinian must know clearly and unequivocally that the independent Palestinian State, with Jerusalem as its capital is not the end of the road'. The [rise of] the Palestinian State is a stage after which there will be another stage and that is the democratic state in all of Palestine [i.e. in place of Israel]."

[Othman Abu Arbiah, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 25 Nov. 1999]

[Othman Abu Arbiah is Arafat's aide for Political Guidance and national affairs, and the Director-General for National Affairs, a senior position in the Palestinian national educational structure]

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:56 PM

Believe me GUEST. Ain't too many things I could find to say nice about Clinton but this one so I figgured I'd say it...

All done saying anything nice about him fir a while...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 08:57 PM

"The Islamic land of Palestine is one and can not be divided.
There is no difference between Haifa and Nablus, between Lod and Ramallah, between Jerusalem and Nazareth, between Gaza and Ashkelon.
The land of Palestine is Waqf land that belongs to Moslems throughout the world and no one has the right to act freely or the right to make concessions or to abandon her. Whoever does this betrays a [trust] and is nothing more than a loathsome criminal whose abode is in Hell!"

[The Preacher of Al Aqza Mosque, Sheikh Yousuf Abu Sneina, PA TV, 8 September 2000]

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:00 PM

"Whether they return to negotiations or not, and whether they fulfill the agreements or not - the political plan is a temporary agreement, and the conflict remains eternal, will not be locked, and the agreements being talked about are regarding the current balance of power. As to the struggle, it will continue. It may pause at times, but in the final analysis, Palestine is ours from the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River."

[ Abdullah Al-Hourani, Chairman, Palestinian National Council Political Committee, Al Hayat Al Jadida, 14 April 2000]

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:00 PM

Carol: Not at all----who wants to push who into the sea?    Who has proven that is exactly what is intended?   Who has not been able to control his own people?   Let me mull this over---does the name begin with A? Were it not for the late Sadat and the enlightened and self serving Hussein (Jordan) we would be at even more bitter ends.

       Aside from that what about the other nations surrounding Israel. Real friends---right?
         
         Bottom line---it is all about politics and self interest---on all sides. That is, as I said, is history. Sad but true.

          By the way---as an aside--the brilliant idea of settling the Holocaust survivors in Africa was a really "brilliant" idea. Great historic history there---is that really were the Jews were--or the Temple---or Jesus---or Solomon--or---you name them. History has a strange way of rearing its ugly little head and making us remember the past. Would we learn from it.   

          So---on a humorous note----The Inquisition---Tough Love at its best I guess.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:02 PM

"We are discussing the current problems and when we speak about Jerusalem it doesn't mean that we have forgotten about Hebron or about Jaffa or about Acre….we are speaking about the current problems that have priority at a certain time. It doesn't mean that we have given up... We have announced a number of times that from a religious point of view Palestine from the sea to the river is Islamic."

[Sheikh Ikrima Sabri, Palestinian Authority appointed Mufti of Jerusalem & Palestine, PA TV, 11 January 2001.]

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:04 PM

"We the nation of Palestine, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the Prophet Mohammed said: The resurrection of the dead will not come until you do battle with the Jews and kill them… We the Palestinians, are the vanguard in this issue, in this battle, whether we want to or whether we refuse. All the agreements being made are temporary..."

[Preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halbiah, PA Religious leader, member of the Palestinian Sharianic (Islamic religious law) Rulings Council, and Rector Advanced Studies, the Islamic University, PA TV, 28 July 2000]

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:05 PM

As long as everyone's getting along!

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:09 PM

Are they ever!!!   Nice to hear moderation from the PA folks.

In all fairness we do quote our sides---I hope I have tried to bring some moderation to this forum. I doubt my success.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:11 PM

When Arafat signed the Oslo agreement, he signed over more than 70 percent of the Palestinians' historic homeland. There has been plenty of rhetoric on both sides, including many on the Israeli side calling for all Palestinians to be removed from what is now Israel and the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. If such rhetoric is going to be noted on one side, it is equally valid to note similar rhetoric on the other side...

"It goes without saying that the Gush consider any American-sponsored Arab-Israeli peaceful settlement to be a virtual impossibility; but furthermore, any attempt to achieve that impossibility should be actively sabotaged. For them, the Oslo Accords, and the prospect of the "re-division" of the "Land of Israel," was a profound, existential shock. It was, said Rabbi Yair Dreyfus, an "apostasy" which, the day it came into effect, would mark "the end of the Jewish-Zionist era [from 1948 to 1993] in the sacred history of the Land of Israel." The Gush and their allies declared a "Jewish intifada" against it. The grisly climax came when, in the Ramadan of February 1994, a doctor, Baruch Goldstein, Israeli but Brooklyn-born-and-bred, machine-gunned Muslim worshippers in Hebron's Ibrahimi Mosque, killing 29 of them before he was killed himself. This was no mere isolated act of a madman. Goldstein was a follower of New York's Lubavitcher Rebbe. But what he did reflected and exemplified the whole milieu from which he sprang, the religious settlers, and the National Religious Party behind them. There was no more eloquent demonstration of that than the immediate, spontaneous responses to the mass murder; these yielded nothing, in breadth or intensity, to the Palestinians' responses to their fundamentalist suicide bombings, when these first got going in the wake of it. Many were the rabbis who praised this "act," "event" or "occurrence," as they delicately called it. Within two days the walls of Jerusalem's religious neighborhoods were covered with posters extolling Goldstein's virtues and lamenting that the toll of dead Palestinians had not been higher. In fact, the satisfaction extended well beyond the religious camp in general; polls said that 50 percent of the Israeli people, and especially the young, more or less approved of it.

The "Jewish intifada" also turned on other Jews. Yigal Amir, who assassinated Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in November 1995, was no less a product than Goldstein of the milieu from which the latter sprang. As in other religious traditions, the hatred Jewish fundamentalists nurtured for Jewish "traitors" and "apostates" was perhaps even greater than it was for non-Jews. Rabin, and the "left," were indeed traitors in their eyes; they were "worshippers of the Golden Calf of a delusory peace." And in a clear example of their deep emotional kinship with the fundamentalists, Sharon and several other Likud and far-right secular nationalist leaders joined the hue and cry against Rabin and his government of "criminals," "Nazis" and "Quislings." Declaring that "there are tyrants at the gate," Sharon likened Oslo to the collaboration between France's Marshal Pétain and Hitler and said that Rabin and his foreign minister, Shimon Peres, were both "crazed" in their indifference to the slaughter of Jews.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040216&s=hirst

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:19 PM

Bill H, I don't think Israel with it's third most well equipped militery in the world, needs to worry about the Palestinians, who have virtually no military at all, pushing it into the sea. And I don't see how bellicose rhetoric on one side should give the other side which is equally guilty of bellicose rhetoric as well as action, the right to continue the subjugation and oppression of the weaker of the two entities.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:19 PM

Context, context, context. At all times. There is no doubt about the obsession by some fanatics. There is also no question that there are moderates.   

The problem is that you, Carol, seem to only want to quote fanatics and those obsessed.   
\
It merely underlines my earlier comment about neither side being able to see the other point of view. Terror breeds more terror. If, your child were, say, murdered, how would you react? To put this on a primal level.

So===we, again, are back to chicken and egg vis a vis Palestine/Israel.   

Another reason why this discussion is leading us into an abyss that will never be resolved before the politicians (self serving as they are) resolve all our postings---or shall I say "droppings"


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:24 PM

Bill, the very same thing can be said of the people being quoted on the other side. At least I am not trying to justify the brutal occupation of millions of people as you are. All I am saying is END THE OCCUPATION.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:27 PM

And then what??   Civil War?? The sea??


You tell us. Gaza is already in the throughs of civis insurection.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:27 PM

Round two, comin' up.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:35 PM

The Palestinians have repeatedly asked for the UN to come in and help them. So first Israel agrees to end the occupation. Then the UN sends people to help the Palestinians get their civil infrastructure back into working order (with financial help from the international community). Then, Israel lets the Palestinians concern themselves with how they are going to go about building their country.

Or, if Israel is feeling responsible for the Palestinians, it can ask them what help they need and let them decide for themselves what help they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:51 PM

Carol:   Is that before or after they carry out their threats? Wold not Utopia be a wonderful thihg?



Bill Hahn (Round 2)

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:51 PM

Hate to keep bringing up the Saudi Proposal (also know as the Mitchell, after Senator Mitchell) that the Bush folks felt was too close to something that Clinton might have endorsed... The elements wer there to make progress...

I have no sides in this conflict in that I have always supported both sides right to exist.

But with that said, the stronger of the two combatents holds most of the cards. This is not an earth shattering observation. Just frank reality. It's that way in all conflicts. It doesn't mean, however, that the stronger wins. Only that the stronger has more options. With that said, it is very much Isreal's move here...

And that, inspite of the way some folks around here are quick to play the anti-Isreali card, is the way it is...

Now, for the unp-teenth time. Both parties have a right to exist!!!!

No rant, just fact.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:54 PM

Damn---I wish there were spell check when I rush of a note---wold is would---and thihg is thing.   So much for sounding intelligent.


Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 09:56 PM

And, of course, I compound things. Of is Off

Bill H

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:11 PM

Bill, as I pointed out before, Israel has the world's third most well equipped military and the Palestinians have virtually none. Do you honestly think the Palestinians pose a credible threat to the State of Israel? Come on. Get real.

If the Palestinians are given what they've been asking for for a long, long time, namely independence, I'm quite confident that they will be too busy building their country to spend any time or energy bothering the much bigger, more powerful, and more highly equipped, militarily, State of Israel in any significant way. Besides, all Israel would need to do is to move all of those IDF forces that are now stationed within the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and station them on the Israeli side of the border. I'm sure they are quite capable of protecting Israel from that position.

BTW, re: your assertion that my quotes come only from extremists within Israel- if you look carefully, you'll notice that one of those extremists is none other than Ariel Sharon, the Prime Minister of Israel. And he has the power of life and death over every single man woman and child in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem. That's just not right.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:14 PM

Hey, guys --

I am sorry -- I thought there were some interesting angles in the original article, and I had no idea how divisive the issue would get.

I will do better next time.

I think that the history of the region would have gotten off to a MUCH better start if Palestine had been defined at the same time that Israel had been.

Hindsight is so easy, though. It wouldn't have been that simple, I know.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:30 PM

Hey Carol C., the land you are living in now belonged to the Indians. Why don't you give them their land back. Aren't you an occupier too?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 10:34 PM

Well, Amos, there were a lot of good point in the article but it Harari reminds me of Lyndon LaRouche. Now, Lyndon can be going along just fine and yer nodding yer head thinking that he's 'bout half making sense... this time. Then, just as sure as Lucy is going to pull the football out as Charlie Brown attempts to kick it, poor ol' Lyndon just kinda "goes left"... No, not politically speaking. More like what you thought was a good golf shot that decides to go over the trees to the left and fall one an entire different fairway...

Well, that's how Lydon LaRouche effects me and that's purdy much the way Harari effected me... Great observations. Less than great ideas for how to fix stuff...

Bobert

p.s. Sorry fir the golf comparision... I don't really know nuthin' about golf... Really...

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:14 AM

Carol, When Boruch Goldstein murdered the Arabs at the Tomb Of The Patriarchs, there was not a single Rabbi who did not publicly condemm the act from the pulpit, as being totally and unequivocally contrary to Jewish Torah law. Our religion holds human life to be sacred, and can only be taken in self defense. I did not hear of a single Muslim Imam who condemmed the acts of 9/11 from the pulpit or chastise their congregations for dancing in the streets in celebration of this tragic event. Muslims were killed in the twin towers along with everyone else. Maybe human life is not as sacred as Arab nationalism. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:19 AM

To carry what Little Brother said one step further. Perhaps the USA should give Texas back to Mexico because it was taken in a war of agression, the same way Israel took Gaza and the West Bank. Too bad we couldn't do it before W became governor. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:30 AM

Well said, Rebbe.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:47 AM

I've said this before, and I have no problem saying it again. If the Indians want their land back, I would have no problem whatever in having it be given back to them. In fact, I think I would prefer it. I think they would probably do a damn sight better running this country than the people who are running it now. And since I don't own any land, I just rent a very small plot of land in a trailer park, I don't imagine they would have any problem becoming my new landlords.

Now, on the issue of "giving land back to the Palestinians", I am not now, nor have I ever suggested that Israel should have to give back any land other than to clear the settlements from the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and let the Palestinians have their state on their land in those locations.

Aparantly, in Israel, there was quite a bit of support for the actions of Boruch Goldstein, Rabbi Sol. But I'll do some more fact checking on that for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:59 AM

I should add that I think the people who now live in the settlements maybe ought to have the choice of staying in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem if they want. But only if they are to live amongst the Palestinians with no special priveleges, and not in segregated, Jewish only enclaves accessed by Jewish only roads, and guarded by the IDF. And they should live under the laws and the government of Palestine, or whatever the Palestinians would choose to call their country. In other words, they would become Palestinian citizens, Jewish Palestinians, subject to all of the same freedoms and conditions that the Palestinian Christians and Muslims would be subject to.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 04:38 AM

This thread is so depressing.

I do believe you tried, Bill H, but if no accord can be reached amongst those of us who are sitting on the side-lines watching, how on earth will it be settled by those in the midst of this on-going tragedy?

The real thing that bonds us all together is the same thing that divides us all over the millenia...humans fighting humans.

If there is indeed a God, be he/she/it Jewish, Muslim, Christian...(people of the Book, Hah!) Boy! I bet he/she/it wishes the brains given humans wasn't too big for their abilities to use it correctly.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 10:17 AM

Amos:   Thanks you for posting the article.   One of the best I have ever read.

Bobert:   Can you get Aids from reading a Carol C. post?   How about if you are hungry from not eating a good breakfast and it being too early for lunch?

Jack:   Carol C. has outposted you 20 lines for every 1 line you wrote.    Embarrassing.

Carol C:   I want you to be able to sleep better, so please be aware that I am one man who does not want to rape you if ever we meet.   Now you only have to worry about the other 150 million men.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:16 PM

For those who care, the whole AIDs issue is being discussed on another thread. It might help clear up what what said on this thread.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:21 PM

I did not hear of a single Muslim Imam who condemmed the acts of 9/11 from the pulpit or chastise their congregations for dancing in the streets in celebration of this tragic event.

Are you telling me that you have knowlege of what is said by every single Imam in every single Muslim Temple in the world, Rabbi Sol? Don't you think this is a bit of hyperbole on your part? There are more than a billion Muslims in the world. That's a lot of Imams for you to have to keep track of.

This is what Baruch Goldstein's tombstone says on it:

Here lies the saint, Dr. Baruch Kappel Goldstein, blessed be the memory of the righteous and holy man, may the Lord avenge his blood, who devoted his soul to the Jews, Jewish religion and Jewish land. His hands are innocent and his heart is pure. He was killed as a martyr of God on the 14th of Adar, Purim, in the year 5754.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein

While extremist Jews in Israel and the US comprise only a small minority of all Jews in the US and Israel, they still comprises a significant enough number of people to be as much of a problem for peace in Israel/Palestine as extremism among Muslims. The reason you don't hear much about it isn't because it doesn't happen. It's because most of the time, the news outlets in the US prefer not to report on it.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684853442/002-9009130-2358433?v=glance&vi=excerpt

Excerpt from BROTHER AGAINST BROTHER : VIOLENCE AND EXTREMISM IN ISRAELI POLITICS FROM ALTALENA TO THE RABIN ASSASSINATION by Ehud Sprinzak

"Chapter seven considers the violent consequences of the 1993 Oslo Accords between Israel and the PLO in the context of Baruch Goldstein's massacre in Hebron. The chapter describes the shock and confusion created within the settler community by the 1992 Labor electoral victory and the signing of the Oslo Accords. It identifies the tension between moderates and extremists over the proper settler responses to the peace process and Palestinian terrorism. The chapter addresses the classic question of what happens to messianic movements when prophesy fails, and explains the Hebron massacre within the framework of the crisis of messianic fundamentalism. Baruch Goldstein, a dedicated Kahane disciple, is shown to have been a killer by proxy, a representative of an articulated culture of violence that was bound to explode in response to the Oslo Accords and the resumption of Islamic terrorism.

Chapter eight traces the countdown to the Rabin assassination, examining the radicalization of the religious right since the Hebron massacre with special attention to the rhetoric of opinion leaders and rabbis. The movement of the radical right from delegitimation of the government as a political collectivity to the depersonalization, character assassination, and dehumanization of its leaders, Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres, is documented in great detail. While distinguishing between the extremist and pragmatic components of the radical right, the chapter follows the extremist's takeover of the antigovernment struggle and the unwillingness of the pragmatists to curb their militant behavior and rhetoric. Attention is also devoted to the personality of Yigal Amir, Rabin's assassin, and the rulings of din rodef and din moser, which convinced the young man that in killing Rabin he was following the Halakha. Also discussed is the doctrine of Jewish zealotry, which made it possible for Amir, an obedient Orthodox Jew, to kill without rabbinical authorization."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/nrabin75.htm>http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/nrabin75.htm">http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/nrabin75.htm

Investigation of Jewish extremism reaches into USA (USA Today 02/16/96)

"A second New York angle: Rabbi Abraham Hecht, a prominent 72-year-old Orthodox rabbi in Brooklyn, last June cited a religious law that allows a person to be killed who "willfully, consciously (or) intentionally hands over human bodies or human property to an alien people." Amir said Monday that he was not guilty of a crime because he shot Rabin for handing over land to Palestinians. Hecht was not available for comment. No matter where Israeli agents take their probe, it's not likely to be pretty."

The Kach movement, with Rabbi Meir Kahane as its candidate, won 26,000 votes in the 1984 election, and Rabbi Kahane became a member of the Knesset. His position was that the Kach movement would not support any government that did not advocate the expulsion of the Arabs from Israel. Fortunately, in 1985, the Knesset passed an amendment to the Basic Law stating that incitement to racism would be grounds for barring a party to participate in elections. Still, in a country the size of Israel, 26,000 votes is not a totally insignificant number.

Religious extremism is not confined to just Christianity and Islam. It's a problem in all of the world's major religions, with the possible exception of Buddhism.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 12:58 PM

BTW, on the subject of Islam and regard for human life, I'll relate an experience I had a few years back...

A Muslim co-worker heard me saying something in a complaining way about my mother. He said to me, "Don't say bad things about your mother. She gave you life."

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 01:17 PM

The Kach movement, with Rabbi Meir Kahane as its candidate, won 26,000 votes in the 1984 election, and Rabbi Kahane became a member of the Knesset. His position was that the Kach movement would not support any government that did not advocate the expulsion of the Arabs from Israel. Fortunately, in 1985, the Knesset passed an amendment to the Basic Law stating that incitement to racism would be grounds for barring a party to participate in elections. Still, in a country the size of Israel, 26,000 votes is not a totally insignificant number.

Not only did the Knesset bar racist parties from participating in elections, they made Kach illegal. Period.

26,000 votes, BTW, represents about 1/2 of 1%. 1/2 of 1% in a democracy IS a totally insignificant number.

The BBC reported polling data that, in December 2001, 74% of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza supported sending terrorist suicide bombers to randomly murder civilian men, women and children in Israel.

74%. Now that is a significant number.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 01:42 PM

Rabbi Meir Kahane was never accepted by the mainstream Orthodox Jewish rabbinical authorities, and was always considered by them as a troublemaker. I know more about him than many other people do. When I was a teenager, he was my group leader (madrich) in the Borough Park chapter of Bnai Akiva, a religious zionist youth movement. When he first formed the Jewish Defense League (JDL) in New York, its prime purpose was to protect Jews against young hoodlums in NYC who would regularly beat up Jews. His finest hour was during the Ocean Hill Brownsville conflict, when he stood up to the Black militant, James Foreman who was trying extort money out of Jewish synagogues. However, once he went into the international arena, he lost all support of the Rabbinnical authorities. His first international cause was the plight of Soviet Jewry. While many of our leading rabbis were negotiating secret, behind the scenes deals with Soviet leaders to allow more Jews to emigrate, Kahane upset the entire apple cart, with his violent public demonstrations which included beating up Soviet diplomats. His actions only served to slow up the process of emigration. I was personally victimized by him. The JDL chartered 20 buses from me for a Soviet Jewry demonstration in Washington, D.C. The check bounced and I never got paid, because he used the money to post bail for his followers who got arrested that day. When I tried to go after him for my money, he told me that it was my contribution to the cause of Soviet Jewry, as involuntary as it may have been. This was in l970 and as a young man who had just gotten married and started my own business, this nearly bankrupted me. After Soviet Jewry, he started to get involved with Israeli politics, and his goons (Chaya Squad as he called them), started beating up Arab diplomats in NYC. He then formed his famous alliance with the Colombo crime family to terrorize Arab diplomats living in NYC, and was present at the rally when Joe Colombo was assasinated. When he finally moved to Israel to get involved in politics there, both, the US government as well as the American Jewish community were glad to be rid of him. Both, Boruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir were followers of his, and frankly were not in their right mind when committing murder, which is clearly prohibited by Jewish law, and no Rabbi has the authority to change that law. The inscription on Goldstein's tombstone was done by Kahane's followers, and had no official sanction for either the Israeli government or the Rabbinate.
As far as Rabbi Hecht goes, he never made those statements that were atributed to him. I know his entire family personally. His daughter and son in law live in our community, only 2 blocks from me. He is a regular visitor and has on numerous ocassions denounced the actions of both, Goldstein and Amir. It is true that I do not know all of the Imams in the Muslim world, but I am sure the press would have reported if any of them had made statements condemming the 9/11 attacks. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 01:51 PM

GUEST, if you do some fact checking yourself, you'll see that those numbers have been increasing steadily over the last several years. There used to be only a minority who advocated suicide bombings, but as things get more desperate for the Palestinians, more and more of them embrace that practice. It would be a much more realistic comparison in this case, to compare the numbers of Palestinians who support suicide bombings to the number of Israelis, or even Jews worldwide, who support extra-judicial assasinations, or the bombing of Palestinians villages in retaliation for Palestinian acts of violence. I think in that case, you would find the numbers of Israelis supporting such violence significantly higher. Probably about the same as the number of Palestinians supporting suicide bombings.

Suicide bombings have nothing whatever to do with religious extremism. They are an attempt on the part of the Palestinians to get the Israeli occupying forces out of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:00 PM

Our religion holds human life to be sacred, and can only be taken in self defense.

---Rabbi-Sol

Killing one person in retrubution for the act of another is not "self-defense". Killing a seven your old with a rocket from a helicoptor is not self defense. Apparantly the government of Israel is not subject to the Torah. Do you stand at your pulpit and rail when a Palestinian child is killed?

Do we hear Rabbis condemning the atrocities of the Sharon government? If not, by your standards then they have no respect for human life. The war on the natives in the US was "justified" with racism and bigotry. If you are saying that you, because you are a Jew that you are better than another man because he is a Muslim. Then you have chosen an apt analogy.

If Israel wants to be like the US and sweep away the natives from their land and take land in "defensive wars" they should be doing it the way the US did, on their own, without our help, without our money. I'm suggesting they keep what they stole up until 1967 and for the sake of Peace give up the rest. That is what almost all of the world is suggesting. How do you feel about that?

I notice Rabbi-Sol that you have said nothing about the so called settlers. Do you think they are stealing land or do you think that they have a right to be there and that the natives should be displaced. Please tell us where you stand on this issue?

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Little Brother
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:24 PM

Jack the Sailor. What do you say about all the militants who are using women & children as a human shield? Aren't they the ones responsible for these tragedies. I'm sure that the helicopters are not deliberately targeting civilians. They are going after militants who are shooting under cover of their own citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:25 PM

Jack hates Israel. What do you expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Mideast: View From the Eye of the Storm
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 02:29 PM

Here are some of the condemnations from Muslim groups and organizations, of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Rabbi Sol. The fact that you don't know about them says much more about the sources you rely on for your news (which sound to me like they are more concerned with promoting hatred of Muslims than actually reporting the news) than it says about the religion of Islam.

http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/mehistorydatabase/afterseptembereleven.htm#tantawi condemns 911

On March 31, 2002, James Reston, Jr. published excerpts from a recent interview with the Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar, Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi. Tantawi dismissed bin Laden as "no specialist in religious affairs," and went on to say, "Islamic law banishes anyone who issues an untrue fatwa." ("religious opinion") Referring to the September 11 hijackers' claims that they were martyrs and would achieve paradise, Tantawi said, "They are not martyrs but aggressors. They will not achieve paradise, but will receive severe punishment for their aggression." He said Islam teaches that,. "Whoever shall kill a man or a believer without right the punishment is hell forever. Allah will be angry with him and give him a great punishment." Murder by surprise, or "from the back," as he put it, is especially damnable because "it is against morality and good honor." Tantawi went on to distinguish between jihad, a defensive measure which may only be waged when Muslims are attacked and only according to strict rules, and irhab ("terror"), violence against innocent and defenseless civilians. Such violence was said to be explicitly forbidden by the Qur'an as was the harming of captives and the destruction of buildings and civil centers. (Washington Post, March 31, 2002)

The arrests were a devastating blow for the older generation of Muslims in Dudley, who have gained a reputation for moderation and taking a stand against terrorism. After the attacks of 11 September 2001, the Dudley Muslim Association was one of the first in the country to condemn the attacks and, on the two anniversaries since, it has organised a memorial event for the victims.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1101801,00.html

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php#cair

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

(There are dozens and dozens of condemnations by Muslims of terrorist attacks in the above two links.)

American Muslim groups jointly and individually condemned the 9/11 attacks. An AMPCC statement issued within hours of the incidents stated: "American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."

http://www.caircan.ca/itn_more.php?id=A57_0_2_0_M

(Ottawa, Canada – 9/11/2001) - The Canadian office of the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR CAN) and the Canadian Muslim Civil Liberties Association (CMCLA) today condemned the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington and offered condolences to the families of those who were killed or injured.

The statement by the two organizations read in part:

"Canadian Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We offer our heartfelt condolences to all those who lost loved ones and join with all people of conscience in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."

"We further call on media professionals to exercise restraint and not draw premature conclusions as to who was responsible for the apparent attacks until those facts become clear."

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=AM0109-335


http://www.cair-net.org/asp/article.asp?id=878&page=NR

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=AM0109-335

Leaders of the American Muslim Political Coordination Council (AMPCC) held a meeting in Washington, DC, on Tuesday, September 11, 2001, to issue the following points related to the terrorist attacks:

1) We assert unequivocal condemnation based on our religious values and our identity as American Muslims;

2) We do not need to defend every maniacal incident emanating from the Muslim world or the Muslim community, just as other religious groups need not defend their extremists;

3) We offer compassion to the victims and solidarity with all Americans in the face of danger;

4) Notwithstanding the disbelief that anyone following the faith of Islam could commit such a heinous crime, we condemn the act regardless of the identity of the perpetrators;

5) We deplore the irresponsible reporting that twists the realities and complexities of the Muslim world in order to project only anti-American sentiment during this disturbing period when we are all attempting to move beyond the state of mourning for the national tragedy;

6) We warn against opportunists who will exploit the misery and hysteria of the public in order to promote a political agenda aimed at tarnishing the name of Islam and Muslims;

7) We should not diminish our resolve to be active in protecting the civil liberties of all Americans and struggling for justice both locally and globally;

8) We need to organize activities to help the victims medically, psychologically and in every other way we can.


American Muslim Alliance (AMA) Condemns Terrorist Attack

(Newark, California: 9/11/01) The American Muslim Alliance, a national civic education organization, condemned today's terrorist attacks in New York and Washington in the "strongest terms".

Dr. Agha Saeed, the national Chair of the American Muslim Alliance, Stated:

"These attacks are against both divine and human laws and we condemn them in the strongest terms. The Muslim Americans join the nation in calling for swift apprehension and stiff punishment of the perpetrators, and offer our sympathies to the victims and their families."


AMC Deplores The Attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon

(WASHINGTON, DC - 9/11/2001) The American Muslim Council (AMC) strongly condemns this morning's plane attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and expresses deep sorrow for Americans that were injured and killed. AMC sends out its condolence to all victims of this cowardly terrorist attack. There is no cause that justifies this type of an immoral and inhumane act that has affected so many innocent American lives. AMC supports all efforts of the investigation in order to track down the people responsible for this tragic act of terrorism.

The American Muslim Political Coordination Council (AMPCC) issued a statement which reads:
"American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No Political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."


The AMPCC consists of AMC, Council on American-Islamic Relations, American Muslim Alliance and Muslim Public Affairs Council.
Donate Blood To Help The Innocent Victims

(WASHINGTON, DC - 9/11/2001) The American Muslim Council calls upon the members of the Muslim community to come together at this tragic time where so many of our fellow Americans have been killed and injured. This American tragedy affects all of us and we should do whatever we can do help save lives of the injured victims. AMC encourages Islamic Centers to start blood drive campaigns and encourages everyone to visit hospitals and medical centers in the capitol and New York City to donate much needed blood to those who are required to receive immediate medical assistance.