BS: Lets play blame the conservative

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 12:46 PM

Don, I understood your point, and my point is that others are doing the same with Republicans. No matter what the year, or what the issue, opposing parties nearly always seem to want to exhibit the same behavior they deride in each other. Look at Presidential elections throughout history and you'll see that this nonsense has been going on ever since the first election in the US.

What I would like to see is a candidate who says, "Here's why you should vote for ME," instead of "Here's why you shouldn't vote for my opponent."

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:35 PM

bruce...you are chewing to DEATH a minor point, that she 'denied' using some word she actually did use....then you twist that to suggest 'rich liberals' get fairer press than...someone..
"She can lie, and noone cares"...she did not 'lie'...her words were distorted and she was correcting his distortion. There is NO evidence that she was consciously trying to disavow her recent remarks..only to correct HIS mistake.

to repeat:
"you ignored MY point, which was that the reporter was TROLLING for controversy, and trying to make Heinz defend something she had not meant...and probably did not remember the exact words she had used. Should she have have been quicker on the uptake and asked the reporter, "did I really use those exact words? I could have chosen better--surely you don't think I meant THAT!"...yep, I guess he should have...but in this case, the reporters motives were a bit clearer than Teresa's.

" if this had been a Republican candiudate's wife, there would still be headlines and screaming going on"...piffle! Rank speculation which violates several rules of argument.

c'mon, Bruce...if you want to be conservative, that's not illegal, but don't paint everything Democrats do or say with that broad brush!

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:02 PM

You mean like the liberals do with everything the Bush administration does? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:36 PM

Kim, I think that's what Kerry did in his speech last night ("Here's why you should vote for ME," instead of "Here's why you shouldn't vote for my opponent."). In fact, the general thrust of the Convention was not to attack Bush (although there was plenty of allusion to Republican policies, especialy by Al Sharpton), but outline and detail why people should vote for Kerry. Kerry even chanllenged Bush to keep the campaign positive and not descend into negativity and personal attacks.

This was one of the underlying themes of the Democratic National Convention, and many people (including me) thought it was a mistake not to attack Bush hammer and tongs. But it may not be a mistake at all. Bush now has his choice of trying to keep it positive (as Kerry challenged him to do) and talk about his accomplishments (which is going to be hard to do without people rolling their eyes), or staying negative and continuing the anti-Kerry campaign he's used so far. My guess is that Bush is going to continue the negative stuff, and it's probably going to lose him some votes from people who are sick and disgusted by that kind of campaigning. But what else has he got?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:39 PM

Come on Bruce surely it sicks in your craw a little bit. Theres Bush with power to levvy war, when its hard to believe.he would have had the nerve to fight in a war himself.

In England there is a widespread belief - even amongst moderates - that Blair would not want any of his kids in the firing line.

Anyway its your call,you have to judge the man. There seemed to be a lot of Republicans even before the election who weren't all that keen on Bush.

Don't you have any reservations......?

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 03:09 PM

As I have stated, I am not thrilled with Bush- There are a number of others I would rather see as the Republican candidate. But I have not seen the Democrats offering a candidate that I would feel comfortable with.

If Bush was smart, he would avoid a negative campaigne. But then , he would never have brought up the gay marriage issue- there was NOTHING for him to gain by it. Those who support him onn it would vote for him regardless, and those of us towards the center find it to be an attack on individual freedoms.

The question I look at is who do I feel safer with? I do not trust the Democrats, from my past experience, to provide adaquate leadership, or "provide for the common defense." (you know, the purpose of government.) A number of the problems we have today can be traced to the actions of the Clinton administration in downsizing the armed forces, and surplusing/destroying material, such as amunition and small-arms.

I see a large part of the Democratic party as hostile to the best interests of this country, by believing that what they want the world to be will magically be. regardless of reality. When they can persuade me that I will be better off , overall, with a Democratic president, they can have my vote- as of now, they have not done so.

In fact, I find a number of the attacks by the Left to be as bad, or worse, than the ones of the Right on personnal freedoms.

"The difference betweeen the Right and the Left is that the Right spends a lot of their money making people do what they want them to: The Left spends a lot of other people's money making people do what they ( the Left) want them to."

Given the largely Left leaning population of Mudcat, I suppose that I should have expected to find more intellectual dishonesty and blatent personal attacks by liberals on conservatives (just by volume of posts), but I guess I had thought that maybe there would be some effort to actually act as liberals claim- in a kinder fashion. I have seen a lot more hate and venom from the Left here: Perhaps there is some kind of feedback between you that makes it "ok". My intent on this thread was to draw attention to the fact that it appears, in my opinion, that an outright lie from a liberal is acceptable, where a reaction to what some would consider unreasonable harassment by a conservative is reason for summary execution.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:39 PM

"... hostile to the best interests of this country, by believing that what they want the world to be will magically be..."

?? such a sentence! I can't even begin to comprehend what that might actually refer to. I have heard NO one suggest that 'the best interests of the country' will be achieved by any means other than hard work and sane policy!

(The difference between the Right and the Left is that the Right gets a lot of 'their' money from an unfair tax system called "THe Golden Rule" He Who Has the Gold, Makes the Rules and they spend a lot of that money trying to make everyone else THINK like them, as well as do what they want. The Left (such as there is of the left any more) is trying to level the playing field so that most folks can live their personal lives as they please, while the Right (the 'very' Right wielding a lot of power now) intends to overlay and impose their notions of moral behavior, religion, social dynamics, economic policy and personal freedom on everyone...whether or not it directly bears on the National Interest!)

finally: " in my opinion, that an outright lie from a liberal is acceptable,"...at last the right disclaimer...in YOUR opinion..I don't recall anyone here saying that they approve of outright lies...by anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 06:57 PM

BillD:

My statement was : "it appears, in my opinion, that an outright lie from a liberal is acceptable"

""********************************************************************
Heinz Kerry's remark came after she told the delegates that "we need to turn back some of the creeping un-Pennsylvanian and sometimes un-American traits that are coming into some of our politics."
*********************************************************************

As she was leaving, McNickle asked her what she had meant by her use of the word "un-American."

She argued with him, insisting she hadn't said "un-American.""

.... now shove it," she told him. "

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 08:28 PM

and did he.....?

the down sizing is happening to some extent with all serious fighting forces because of improved technology.

let's hope the democrats aren't the crooked ratfinks that you imply. Clinton had a lot of fans over here in England mainly because he was so hard working and effective for the cause of peace in Northern Ireland.

People over here are worried by Bush in that we can't see where this foreign policy is leading us. There are rumours that it will lead to a war with Iran. We're two wars in, and we still haven't laid Osama by the heels.

If the fact that this woman has denied what she said, upsets you so much - fair enough I suppose - perhaps we should be outraged - although the significance is hard to fathom for an outsider.

But even if we all stamp our feet in unison in annoyance, its not going to quiet the fears and unease in many minds at the present about Bush. If that seems unkind, well people are entitled to their feelings and thoughts and to express them. Maybe you can allay those fears somehat by getting the politicians you support to be more accountable, or even comprehensible would do......

One metaphor in this thread worries me. If this is a storm in a chamber pot - what does that make us?

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 08:53 PM

bb,

what about my point that Laura Bush can also lie at will and nobody cares? Your main point seems to have been that "if this had been a Republican candidate's wife, there would still be headlines and screaming going on."

I provided direct evidence to the contrary: where was the scandal about Roses are Red?

I await the six days of New York Times headlines, the calls for Bush's impeachment in the Washington Post, etc., etc.

Basically, Bruce, you're makin' stuff up to get mad at. Hope you're at least having fun with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 09:15 PM

'I do not trust the Democrats, from my past experience, to provide adaquate leadership, or "provide for the common defense." '

My past experience includes Roosevelt and Truman, Kennedy and Johnson. I didn't always agree with the last two, but they didn't let us be overrun by the Vietnamese, or Russians. Of course we were lucky to have Reagan in charge when the dreadful threat from Grenada came about.

"A number of the problems we have today can be traced to the actions of the Clinton administration in downsizing the armed forces, and surplusing/destroying material, such as amunition and small-arms. "

The main problem is a twit who declared a useless war without a plan to follow through. Read the 911 report.

"Shove it" and "Fuck yourself "are neither one issues.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:01 PM

Anyone like to define "conservative" here?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:12 PM

Something that many of you may not know is that McNickle is not only pro-conservative (which is fine), but is also virulently anti-liberal to the point where he regularly writes poisonous columns, and distorts liberal statements and behaviours. Mrs. Heinz-Kerry had had run-ins with McNickle prior to the convention, and many people believe he was baiting her. I think telling him to "shove it" showed a certain amount of restraint on her part -- he was right in her face with his attitude.

A column of McNickle's from 2001:

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:46 PM

well, thank you peedeecee...that certainly puts that 'confrontation' in better perspective! *grin*
..McNickle praises The Washington Times, Rush Limbaugh AND Fox News.....and we wonder that he would take any opportunity to pick at and distort something the wife of the Democratic candidate said? (you listening, bruce?...you STILL do not have the precise sequence of events and EXACT quotations right. (read Don's post way back up there ^ 28 July 1:07PM) He took certain words out of context, emphasized them differently, and asked if she had "stopped beating her wife yet"... You just hope the label of 'liar' can be stuck to Teresa, whether or not it is true OR relevant!) (it is neither)..come by some time, we will re-enact the scene... I get to be Teresa...*big grin*.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:52 PM

2nd Request...

Anyone out there have an operative definition of "conservative"???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:06 PM

The standard operative definition of "conservative" is "one who resists change." My operational definition of "conservative" is "one who automatically and reflexively rejects any kind of new thinking, defining it as evil, immoral, unAmerican, unChristian or unnatural. Especially if it means someone else will have a good time.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:07 PM

Bobert..it will depend on which side you ask...anyone who calls themself conservative will have a positive, happy, reasonable definition about 'values' and how to govern 'lightly' and fiscal restraint...

definitions are one thing, actions are another.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:24 PM

Well, the Bush folks have reinvented "new thinking", pdc.... I mean, invading folks fir possibly one day wanting to develope weapons to attack the US? That's some serious "new thinking".

That's what I mean. And, peedeecee (pdc) I know you know that perfectly well but there seem to be a few folks who think that Bush is a "conservative"??? Hahahaha.... Just check out thre budget deficit...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:00 PM

beardedbruce, the very fact that this minor occurance involving someone who is not a candidate for office was reported to death in pretty much all of the mainstream media proves that Theresa Kerry is most assuredly not getting a free pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:12 PM

If we were all held accountable for every word we've ever said...we'd be having a rough time. :-) This is one good reason NOT to go into politics.

Now, things we can blame conservatives for...let's see...

Bad weather, ugliness, hatred, crime, war, poverty, stupidity, warts, rodent infestation, bad TV shows, bad hair days, teenage pregnancies, fascist tendencies, dirty socks, socks that won't stay up, tasteless sports jackets, lascivious behaviour at office parties, drunken driving, intolerance, stigmatizing and generalizing, typos in posts, incontinence, farting in elevators, facial acne, big ears, commercials that repeat themselves, scoliosis, cystic fibrosis, halitosis, the influence of Saturn, general malevolence, jokes that aren't funny, prejudice, scorn, waste, perfidy, malice, mental sloth, hangnails, tooth decay...

All this and more!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 01:27 PM

Hey! Bad hair days are not our fault!

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 02:19 PM

Well, I've asked twice, so I presume BeardedBruce can simply find no evidence that "if this had been a Republican candidate's wife, there would still be headlines and screaming going on."   

And since Laura Bush lies through her teeth and gets a much freer pass than Theresa Heinz Kerry, I think we've shown him to be wrong about this.

We should change the subject to:

Farting in Elevators: A Conservative Conspiracy

That would be less nonsensical than the ACTUAL topic of this thread so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jul 04 - 03:45 PM

Heh!

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: DougR
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:34 PM

I for one have lost no sleep over what both Heinze/Kerry or Cheney said. Big deal.

I'm much more concerned about how Kerry is going to explain all those anti-war votes in the Senate over the past twenty years then declare himself to be a much better war president than Bush is.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,Don Firth (having log-in problems)
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM

That's a slam-dunk, Doug. You don't go to war unless it's actually necessary, not the idle whim of a group of neo-con imperialists.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:08 PM

Hey, here's an idea, DougR. When your side is losing an argument, just change the subject entirely!

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:42 PM

"A number of the problems we have today can be traced to the actions of the Clinton administration in downsizing the armed forces, and surplusing/destroying material, such as amunition and small-arms."

Whose military "won" the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq Mr. Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 06:45 PM

and why are we buying new ammo, when we *used* to have sufficient stockpiles? During the Clinton years, trains were daily leaving the storage areas with ammunition and "scrap". Since there was never going to be a need to have another war, that was ok....

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 07:10 PM

Oh, bb DIDN"T go away for a long weekend or anything. So he COULD have answered my previous posts but didn't. I guess that just goes to show he really has NO evidence that a Republican's wife would have been treated differently, and no answer to Laura Bush being a liar who gets away with it.

Missed you, bb!

BTW, good job DougR changed the subject for you. Now you can go on about ammunition and other things that excite you, rather than having to prove your ridiculous allegations.

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: DougR
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 09:12 PM

Interesting choice of words, Don, "slam-dunk" as in exactly what George Tenent told GWB when he asked for assurances that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

Nerd, ake, etc.: I'm not changing the subject. Blaming conservatives is a wide open field it seems to me.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 09:19 PM

It's not nearly as complicated a question as your obfuscation is trying to make it. Whose military "won" the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Tell ya what, I'll make it a yes or no. Did the Bush Administration entirely rebuild the military in approximately 8 months?

Here's a corollary (a little trickier) - who did Secretary of Defense Cheney publically thank for creating the military that "won" the first Gulf War?

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 03:08 AM

For an outsider it's very weird watching you Americans debate. A bit like wattching two guys at a party hitting each other over the head with balloons. (What kind of parties does HE go to - I hear you saying).

You use the terms liberal and conservative as terms of abuse. I England, both the Liberals and Conservatives are respectable political parties - so nobody has to ask what a conservative is. They've got a manifesto, and everybody knows what they stand for.

What's wrong with wanting to conserve what is good about your country? And similarly whats wrong with wanting the maximum amount of civil freedom in a liberal society for everybody - both are noble aims.

The trouble is that the abuse is getting in the way of the debate which grips everybody in the world. Is Bush right in what he's doing?

We've had two wars and now there are rumours of a third - all with regimes we may not approve of, but not definitely connected to the perpetrators of 9/11. A couple of nights ago I saw (on an American TV channel) someone laying into Kerry because he burned down Vietnamese villages 30 odd years ago. The debate you should be having is getting further away from you.

For what its worth, both the Liberal and Conservative parties in England (who are not in power) are against-ish the war. What used to be the socialist party (Labour) is in power and backs Bush to the hilt.

Perhaps the trouble is that as long as we bicker about personalities, they don't have to take what we think seriously and they don't have to burden us with facts about what the hell is going on. I think that is probably true the world over.

Ihope

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM

Okay, DougR. Here's your original post, which I claimed was changing the subject:

I for one have lost no sleep over what both Heinze/Kerry or Cheney said. Big deal.

I'm much more concerned about how Kerry is going to explain all those anti-war votes in the Senate over the past twenty years then declare himself to be a much better war president than Bush is.

What does this have to do with blaming a conservative for anything?

It is clearly a change of topic from BeardedBruce's bullshit about Heinz-Kerry getting a freer pass than the hypothetical Republican's wife. By the way, in case I haven't mentioned this before, I have handily disproven this above, causing bb to maintain a long and sheepish silence on the issue.

Then you come in saying Kerry has flip-flopped, and claim that's ALSO somehow about blaming conservatives? Come on!

This thread is REALLY obviously about bashing liberals.

Hey, I also pointed THAT out above, 30 Jul 04 - 02:07 AM. I cry in the wilderness and none of our resident conservatives listens. SIGH!

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 01:51 PM

problem is, 'liberal' & 'conservative' over here are not parties, but vague descriptions of general tendencies of the *Parties*...and when used by the opposition, are usually an attempt to paint the opposition with innuendos referring to the more extreme positions held by some party members. It is a silly system in many ways, but a hard one to change.

A person can have a mixture of liberal or conservative views on various issues, but has no party which represents that basic setup, and has to choose Republican or Democrat depending on which represents his major concerns. (or join a minor party which seldom gets much representation at the polls)...

quite a dilema

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: DougR
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 07:41 PM

Aw lighten up, Nerd, tell you what: I'll stand real still and you can bang me on the head with a stick. Okay?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 08:01 PM

Hold still, DougR...

WAP!

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: DougR
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 11:58 AM

Ouch! I didn't think you'd REALLY do it! Shucks shoot.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Lets play blame the conservative
From: Nerd
Date: 04 Aug 04 - 12:00 AM

Don't worry, DougR, it was just one of those styrofoam clapping sticks---lotsa noise, but it doesn't hurt!