BS: Animal Rights Protesters

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:58 PM

We don't need a cure for the common cold. We do need cures for plenty other diseases, cancer for example...but oh, we haven't cured it yet! That means it'll never happen, of course, following the same logic as, 'I haven't learned to ride a bike yet, so i never will'.

Trust me, i hate Rich Bastards inc. as much as anyone, but unfortunatly it they who are funding the medical research that is making progress into curing diseases such as cancer, which, may i remind you, we have a one in three chance of contracting during our lifetimes...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:59 PM

No... what I'm saying is the mink released from this fur farm had NO survival skills, like ANY animal bred in captivity... Like any idiot who ever watched the Discovery channel coulda told them...

So, the 'protesters' ended up killing exactly what it was they were trying to save...

Animal rights activists all seem to me to be exactly like "Brent" as played by Seann William Scott in the movie "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back"

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:00 PM

No, the mink were released having been reared in an environment where they did not develop the skills necessary to catch their own food..

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:00 PM

BI....Your beginning to sound like Martin Gibson with P M T...

Of course I dont agree with bombs in shopping centres.

There are of course real loonies in every grouping.
Even the hunting fraternity

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:02 PM

Especially in the hunting fraternity....

But you think that mailing death threats to the employees of reasearch institutes is acceptable? Mailing death threats to their families? Friends?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:04 PM

Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to conduct a debate without resorting to cheap insults...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:05 PM

"conduct a debate without resorting to cheap insults"

But then it wouldn't be Mudcat!

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:07 PM

Hull

Sorry I meant CBE, also two convictions rather than several.

This doesn't affect the debate in question. You've obviously done your google tonight.

Now that huntings gone in England and Wales, the animal rights lobby can focus its attention on ending vivisection asap.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:08 PM

Clint...All mink in this country were origionally released from captivity. their survival and breed ing skills must have ben adequate ,as there are now million of the bastards...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:08 PM

No, CH, i'd be civilised :0)Sheeesh, civilisation...whatever happened to that idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:17 PM

You don't know Mudcat at all do you BI???

Ake... you obviously don't have half a clue what yer talking about, so I'm done with ya...

This is a BIG difference between an introduced population, and what those idiots who cleared out the mink farm did...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:26 PM

And by the way...If your all so keen on irradicating cancer, would'nt the total ban on the production of ciggies help.

(For all you cancer causing "auld reekies")...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:38 PM

Terrorism is wrong. That's generally accepted. However, it seems to happen when large groups of people are ignored or 'deflected' by an unequal application of THE LAW. It tends to result from groups having their concerns ignored, and then the groups decide that the law does not equally work on their behalf and so why stay inside the law?

The whole area of research using animals needs serious review. I agree with Cluin who posted above and said that when the research is done to produce shampoos and soaps, that's maybe not at all cool (my words, not his). When it's done to further knowledge about things deadly to humans, maybe there is reason to use the animals.

When I said that people are animals, too, it was not to be flip. We know that children who are cruel to animals carry that habit into their later lives, and they then transfer that cruelty to members of their own species. It becomes a matter of degree as opposed to a matter of right/wrong. If the act of torture becomes something to which we inure ourselves (and holding open the eyes of rabbits while shampoos are tested on their eyes is an act of torture regardless its other motives), then doing so to humans is an easy next step.

I think it dehumanizes US as people to do that type of thing to any creature. It is not a good enough argument to me that we are the top of the food chain and therefore we can do it because we want to. We are also at the top of the intellectual 'food chain', and that means, IMO, we should be above it, not part of it. We wouldn't like it done to us; therefore, we shouldn't do it to others.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 06:50 PM

Well said Brucie...The voice of reason among the howls of invective.


And if anyones interested Clint is talking bollocks...
Mink were never native to the British Isles all mink now breeding here ,origionate from mink who either escaped or were released from mink farms.
They have taken their freedom ,like the proverbial ducks to water, are so numerous in many areas as to be considered a "pest"..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:20 PM

Ake,

How are you, buddy? It is great to see you posting again. I have missed you on the threads very much. We don't always agree--you being much more often the voice of reason--and I have missed you, because you often make me sit back and have a good look at things.

Take care my friend.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:44 PM

"We are also at the top of the intellectual 'food chain', and that means, IMO, we should be above it, not part of it. We wouldn't like it done to us; therefore, we shouldn't do it to others. "

Precisely... and would these extremist animal rights protesters like to be sent death threats? As i have said before, i am not against animal rights protesters, i am against those particular animal rights protesters who behave in a threatening and/or violent manner; as indeed, i am against anyone who behaves in such a manner. To me, that is dehumanising.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:56 PM

Dehumanising????

Thats either a very funny joke
Or one large heap of crap

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 07:58 PM

Please explain why?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:08 PM

You live in a world where we humans have been inflicting the worst sadistic horrors on one another,far too numerous to list ,but the jewel in the crown must be the slaughter of the innocent children in Baslan.
We have become so immune to this horror ,that the vile act has already started to fade from our memories, to be replace by some other worse crime
And you can still speak of being dehumanised!!

As a species, we dont deserve the life of one innocent animal..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:16 PM

Anyway... young girls should be in bed at 1:30am.

Im off to mine ...Good Night ..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: GUEST,Colyn
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:29 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:32 PM

Oh yes, we're a bunch of vicious bastards at times...but there are still a lot of good people out there, and there is still reason to hope for improvement.

The reason these atrocities are so abbhorent, is that we have the capacity to understand that they are wrong and still commit them- ie, we are able to formulate and live by moral codes, and that is what i mean by humanity. Therefore, when i say an action is dehumanising i mean it is contrary to our morality.

I do not appreciate being patronised, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: GUEST,Colyn
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:33 PM

A dentist I know had a patient wearing some sort of Animal Rights badge. Patient had a tooth needing to be extracted.
Dentist picked up his forceps and told the patient to hold tight to the arms of the chair.
"Arn't you going to give me an injection?" squealed the patient.
"Sorry, no. They have all been tested on animals".

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 08:57 PM

Wow. Your dentist friend is a real wit.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:32 PM

Ooooo Sorree Miss BI.


I take it its crap then?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 09:38 PM

I am trying to explain my opinions by outlining the thought processes that led to me holding those opinions. If you are not willing to even attempt to understand them, and are going to resort to childishness, i won't bother.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: GUEST,Been There, Seen That
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 10:37 PM

Ake, six years ago and about 1000 yards from where the keyboard on which I'm typing is located, animal rights terrorists released 2210 farm-raised mink from their cages in what they charactorized as an attempt to "liberate the prisoners of bourgeois Amerika" (I remember because I didn't think the middle class could afford to wear mink, but I digress).

About 1700 of these animals were recovered the next morning, most sitting under their open cages waiting to be fed. The local DNR office (state department of natural resources) reported that at years-end 367 dead mink had been reported in the county (in a normal year, it's about 50). See if your'e smart enough to do the math yourself.

Even if one agrees that animal farming is reprehensible, "liberating" non-feral creatures only serves to change the method of death for these creatures. Your assertion that they can survive once released is a wistful fantasy whether you choose to admit it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 12:02 AM

Thanks for clearing up the example that I could only recall, as if through a glass darkly!

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 03:05 AM

Of course it's a shame that i don't prescribe to that particular brand of misanthropy. Hey, i'm no better than animals! Woah, that gives me the excuse to do lots of disgusting stuff, and not feel guilty about it...i'm only acting on instinct, right? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 04:04 AM

I think the truth with the mink lies somewhere in the middle. It does seem that the majority of mink bred in captivity do not do to well in the wild but I think some do survive and thrive and there are other factors animal liberation releases that have not been considered but may distort the picture somewhat. Let's not forget there have been huge efforts to re-capture the animals and that some of the dead will have been shot by farmers worried about them.

Whatere, we can argue the figures as much as we want but what I question is if mink bred in captivity that either escape or are released irresponsibly into the wild have zero chance of survival, how come we have populations of mink in the UK that are so succesful they are a concern? Mink are not indigenous, and there has been no program to introduce them into the wild that I'm aware of. Where did our wild mink come from if not from escapes and releases from captivity over time?

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:25 AM

Mink do survive and thrive in the wild in the UK, and have become a serious pest. Of course, the mink-hound packs that hunt them will have to stop now.
I've always been under the impression that many extreme animal rights activists latch onto the issue because it's an easy, uncomplicated bandwagon to follow. Child poverty, the arms trade and other ethical areas are fraught with pitfalls, and quick and spectacular results aren't possible. Yet smash up a few cars, post some shit through a few letterboxes or burn down a building or two and you have instant catharsis, coupled with a feeling that you've really done your bit for cuddly creatures.
It's a lazy, simplistic and ultimately selfish form of terrorism, IMN-SHO. Yet a lot of people in the UK will have sympathy for them, not knowing what violent, sociopathic sods the hard-core activists can be. You can see old ladies in shopping centres every weekend signing petitions and donating money to the apparently unarguable cause of animal welfare.
Maybe they should take a look at what happens at the sharp end of that cause. These are just the activities that the activists are prepared to brag about.
They are terrorists - stupid, woolly-minded and naive terrorists. They have already seriously injured a 13-month old child and a six-year-old girl, and before long they will kill someone. Maybe then (Guest) Smiler will feel that something worhwhile has been achieved.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:36 AM

I notice on the site that Gervase links to, that on the 1st of october 12 year old children damaged someones car, marvellous, tell your kids to go round smashing cars up!
Hardly peaceful protest!

In my view these bastards are as bad as the BNP.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:40 AM

Another article says-"Frogs Liberated"
havent these silly bastards got anything better to do?

Note that on that site, there are hundreds of protests mentioned, just about every single one of them is a crime, ie criminal damage, trespass, assault etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Crystal
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 07:59 AM

>And by the way...If your all so keen on irradicating cancer, would'nt the total ban on the production of ciggies help<

Yes, it would cut deaths by lung cancer by 85%.

There is a card you can get which states that in case of serious injury/ hospitalisation you do not wish to be given any medicans that have been tested on animals.

Basically all that can be done is to wrap you in a cotton bandage and wait for you to bleed to death (or for a mirical)

I wonder how many protestors carry that one then?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 09:59 AM

I will not give way on the subject of mink.
Perhaps the terrain in America where they were released was unsuitable, but in the UK and in my area in particular, mink thrive in the wild...Whether this is for the long term good of the indigenous species is another question.

On the subject of protesters, "economic terrorism" as practiced by the Animal rights movement will soon become a model for disenfrachised grouping both here and in the USA.
Given the direction being taken by the Bush regime, I think we are going to see rather a lot of it.

Maybe the left in America who have been cheated of power twice in the last decade will at last decide on direct action...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:05 AM

Go to a lab... buy a mink... take it home and let it loose in the back yard... you'll have a maggot bloated DB in hardly any time at all...

"will soon become a model for disenfrachised(sic.) grouping"
So in other words, "Oh whaaaa... the world isn't exactly the way -I- want it to be, so I'm gonna be a suck and throw a tantrum till I pass out or until a cop bashes my head in with a club"

Well, as long as you ONLY hurt yourself, go right ahead... the world needs more Darwin Award Candidates

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:06 AM

Do you never go to fucking bed?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: *Laura*
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 10:51 AM

I think if humans want cosmetics - they should test them on other humans.

I have not yet made my mind up about the disease thing though - I don't know enough about that area of it.

Isn't mudcat great? You can have a nice, civilised, face-to-face argument with someone miles away without resorting to 'shut up you vicious bastard!' hehehe.

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 05:10 PM

"Yet a lot of people in the UK will have sympathy for them"

What do you expect coming from a country that donates more to animal charities than it does to childrens charities? Priorities aren't our strongpoint...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 05:27 PM

"I think if humans want cosmetics - they should test them on other humans"

Exactly. Nobody's going to die because they're not wearing lipstick, are they?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 05:33 PM

"You can have a nice, civilised, face-to-face argument with someone miles away without resorting to 'shut up you vicious bastard!"
Some people can... Ake obviously cannot...

"Nobody's going to die because they're not wearing lipstick"
I donno if that's a chance I'm willing to take!
LOL

*walks away singing* "I'mmm soooo pretty..... "

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 05:52 PM

Whats the difference between Clint and Martin??

Martins' got a sense of humour :>}

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: LilyFestre
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 05:54 PM

My husband is a research scientist who does conduct research using animals. Let me add that he loves animals more than most people. I think it should be pointed out that many institutions that conduct animal research do so with great care and use most, if not ALL of the animal for various research. One lab gets this part, one lab gets that part, etc. Not much is wasted. Before too many of you jump on those who conduct such research, think about the thousands upon thousands of people whose lives will be touched. I'm not talking about cosmetics, but medical research.

Do you know anyone how had a child that was born prematurely? The research conducted by my husband's lab studied brain development of premature animals (won't say what kind as there are some seriously disturbed and scary people out there). By studying the dendrites of these animals, it became clear that dendrite growth is much slower and never fully develops on those (humans/animals) who are born prematurely. This lab found that certain fatty acids and lipids added to the premature infant's diet increased the growth of the dendrites, hence increasing the chance of a more "normal" development of the brain. Infant formula can now be found in local grocery stores with these lipids/lipils added. Think of those septuplets...the McCoys I believe....without such scientific research, many of their children would not have developed as much as they have. Children with lower birthweights simply were not surviving.....now they are...and it is due to the animal research that has been going on. Think about it....do you know anyone who has had a premature infant? That's just one small facet of animal research and how it can effect millions of lives.

When my husband was hired at this lab, I expressed concern. He assured me that the animal care was better than most animals receive in regular homes. They are fed, cleaned and monitored hourly. I would like to think that the majority of labs treat their animals as such as they are giving their lives in return for valuable research. The labs that do not maintain these standards, in my opinion, should be shut down and put out of business.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: GUEST,Colyn
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:24 PM

A very cogent argument, Michelle, and results of trhat research were published in national newsdpapers a few weeks ago.
As a medical person myself I also fully understand the reasons for research on animals and the benefit it brings to (wo)mankind.
A simple example is the number of children today growing to adulthood compared with the numbers 150 years ago. And yes, animals were used in medical research even then.
Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:56 PM

"do you know anyone who has had a premature infant?"
There are too many people who seem to be permanent infants... when can we get some animal research to cure them?

Myself I must admit, I prefer peppermint infants...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Boab
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:00 AM

The guys who released the mink from the farm were stupid; but no more so than those who dress themselves up to look like ginormous mink with a human head, thus giving stupid "mink farmers" the incentive to treat yet more mink with kind hospitality.
   I eat meat. Mostly deer from a free-run property. I eat fish. I play a bodhran made of goatskin. I detest beef--so all you ranchers and feedlot wallahs can disappear if you like. We don't need to wear furs in these "enlightened" days. So I have no great disdain for those who heave paint at the "I wanna look like a beastie" brigade.
There is a balance to be struck in all human affairs; consevation of wild species is one matter which needs redressing; too many have gone, too many will inevitably go. Like all human endeavours, two extremes are engendered; the one on the right is as loopy as the one on the left.
    Er----sorry about the bodhran------

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Boab
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 03:03 AM

---and sorry about the "r' missing from "conservation".[!!!]

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:27 AM

Most of the labs will not allow independent inspections of their procedures, or inspection of animals during experiments
.......WHY?

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:34 AM

99...

Subject: RE: BS: Animal Rights Protesters
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 04 - 08:39 AM

Im against all abuse of animals, including those bred for food.

But I suppose a case could perhaps be made for some medical research, personally Im not convinced, for many reasons.

My point is that animals are used for all types of commercial research, not just medical.

I repeat my point, if we really want to make a difference to the health of our nations, stop slaughtering animals and totally ban cigarettes, or those who use them.

Perhaps all the smokers would like to put themselves up for medical research, if all those with tobacco induced heath problems were forced to submit to research, tobacco consumption would stop overnight ...Ake