BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:38 AM

This is too weird. I am actually in full agreement with Clinton Hammond.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:55 AM

Sorry, GS, but no sale.

To say that because you cannot prove God does not exist means that He must exist is to frame the argument in a logical fallacy. Note the following: Clicky. And this is only one of dozens of web sites (not to mention philosophy textbooks and books written by theologians) that contain the same information.

St. Thomas Aquinas, when he discovered the writings of Aristotle, particularly Aristotle's formal rules of logic, tried to put together logical proofs for the existence of God using Aristotle's almost mathematically precise rules of proof. That, incidentally, was one of the reasons the Church made him a saint. But it turned out that Aquinas's zeal to prove the existence of God and a certain lack of scientific objectivity tended to make his use of Aristotelian logic a bit less than rigorous. The arguments all sound good. In fact, the argument you are presenting is essentially identical to one of his. But none of the arguments he put forth hold up to close scrutiny. They all contain a fatal fallacy, and the fallacy that shoots down the argument you made is called argumentum ad ignorantiam (argument from ignorance). Which is to say, "You are ignorant of any proof that God does not exist, therefore, He must exist."

You can use the argument from ignorance to "prove" the existence of little green men walking the earth. "They can make themselves invisible, so no one sees them, but they're there!"   "That's crazy," you say? "Well, you can't prove they're not there!"

Sorry. Doesn't wash. Gotta do better than that.

Note #1:   Since it is impossible to prove the existence of God, ascribing characteristics to God such as what God wants or doesn't want, what God believes, who God chooses as good or bad, or, for that matter, God's gender, is an exercise in pure speculation.

Note #2:   Belief in God is a matter of faith. If it were possible to prove the existence of God, faith would be unnecessary. The opposite of faith is not doubt, the opposite of faith is certainty.

Note #3:   Do not assume that because I refute your assertion, this necessarily means that I do not (or, for that matter, do) believe in the existence of a higher power. That's a whole different issue.

Respectfully submitted,

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:28 PM

ever considered,
and this could be even more a concern to moderate christians as any one else,
that powerful and politicaly influential extremist evangelical right-wing absolutist christians
may actually be misguided and unwitting pawns of the devil ?

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:40 PM

Well, yes, as a matter of fact. To use the millenialist jargon, it is said that no one will recognize the Anti-Christ when he comes; that the Anti-Christ will appear "in a pleasing shape" and deceive a good many people, including devout Christians.

Kinda makes ya wonder, don't it?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:41 PM

Like the Pope himself, Guest?

ever considered why people say they are going to take a shit, when in fact, they leave one?

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:44 PM

The opposite of faith is certainty? How strange?I think this is a matter of definiton. From a human perspective, certainty is a condition of knowing unambiguously about some reality. Often this means using some formalized kind of logic to test and validate what one knows, such as a survey of agreements, or an instrumented device, or some mathematical series, or a two-valued set of logical steps such as Aristotle used.

Empiricism, a sort of Newtonian claim to objective reality-testing, is often used.

But the net effect is unambiguous knowing.

Faith, depending on the kind used (there are several) can also produce a sense of unambiguous knowing, but without the rigor of any logical system, mathematical test or empirical validation. That is why faith often lures in those of weak mental capacities as a substitute for reason.

But even the strong minded may find faith as a fine source of certainty when dealing with what seems to be unknowable, like the face of God or her nature.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:44 PM

you mean, Pamela Anderson MIGHT be the anti-christ?....I always suspected it.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM

ok.. own up..

is anyone here the Antichrist ?

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:00 PM

Ya...I didn't want to say anything, I qwas afraid you would disapprove....


A

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:08 PM

True indeed, Amos. I was speaking there of scientific certainty.

In a philosophy lecture I heard some centuries ago, the speaker (who was an atheist, but not a hard-charging one—he just said he couldn't see the sense in believing in something as "speculative" as the existence of a god, any god—discussed the various Aristotelian "proofs." When he came to the "Argument from First Cause" (Everything in the universe has a cause. But God was the First Cause), he pointed out that the supposed syllogism is self-contradictory. If everything has a cause, then God Him/Herself has to have a cause, otherwise the argument falls apart. If the premise is true, the conclusion can't be, and it is perfectly legitimate to ask, "Okay, what caused God?" If the conclusion is true, the premise can't be, and the laws of Cause and Effect must be abandoned. The ultimate result of this is epistemological chaos.

What he zinged in on was that since humans so often give God the credit or the blame for the atrocious things that they do, if scientists actually discover beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists and begin to actually document God's nature and characteristics (included God's Will), these folks would then have to invent SUPER-God to justify their atrocities.

Don Firth

P. S.   Pamela Anderson? What can I say but "Oink!"

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:18 PM

Scientific certainty?

Tests against time? Tests protected from contamination by shields of unknowing, known as double blind?

SUrely you are aware that there is evidence accumulating that knowing is non-local? The kind of certainty that these constructs provide is pretty much just as unambiguous as the kind provided by faith, but has more pretensions, in that it makes certain assumptions and uses them to define procedures that will be considered reliable. That's a methodology that has a lot of consensus.

But if knowing really is non-local, then those methods are only good for physics and part of biology, not all of science. It becomes an issue similar to what rules apply at a costume ball where everyone wears a masque. You get the feeling that the protocols are a bit different than they would be if everyone was being their true selves!:D The nature of the knower doesn't usually get included in the methods allowed for knowing. In that respect, scientific certainty is "unnatural" knowing. Curiouser and curiouser.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:42 PM

Hey, Wasn't GS the guy who used to say "God Bless You" all the time, and people got mad, and he said "well, I just can't understand why you think I'm trying to evangelize! You are all attacking me for trying to force my beliefs on you, but I'm not!"

Guess what? Now you are...

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:45 PM

At the risk of causing a schism such as never been before (well, OK, a little thread drift), why is it that when religion threads arise someone always brings up the topic of logic?

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:45 PM

No Laurie, God is a Puerto Rican lesbian... who wears leotards but no bra.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:49 PM

To be an observant Jew and cite the New Testament's 'Lord's Prayer' as indicative of God's sex seems strange to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: just john
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:55 PM

"Disproving" a religion sounds like taking the cholesterol count of a song.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 01:59 PM

It was "Be Blessed" that appeared at the end of my posts....
There was no intention to annoy or upset people when I started this thread, neither was there by putting Be Blessed at the end of those old postings of mine. However, it has sparked a lively discussion about peoples beliefs and caused some of you to think I've "lost it".
I am not niaive enough to think that evangelising here would be in any way successful but this thread has sure attracted a lot of attention.
I am also not so niaive as to think I could force an opinion or belief on anyone as most of you probably know by now.
I do think I could have worded the post better but was a bit rushed and under pressure at the time.
Please keep the posts coming and sorry if anyone was in any way offended.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:12 PM

I just read your first post, Georgiansilver. I won't say you are wrong and I won't say you are a freak but I do think you are seriously misled.

Elva Bontrager

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:25 PM

I think the following part of Mike's post is indicative of his frame of mind:

"this thread has sure attracted a lot of attention."

Mike just wanted attention, folks! This was a cry for help...

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:27 PM

Actually it's my fault. I forgot to tell Mike that you have to be a member here for at least three years before you're allowed to start a religion thread. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 02:46 PM

Ebbie, you and others keep showing how little you know about Judiasm.

Christians don't have an exclusive on The Lord's Prayer.

He was our God first, remember?

And there is a difference between an observant Jew and a religious Jew, Ebbie.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 03:11 PM

Yeah, but isn't the "Lord's Prayer" from the Gospel according to Matthew? It's not a Jewish prayer in any case!

We call him "Adonai Elohenu," ("the Lord our god,") not "our father," although we also conceptualize him as male.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Cats
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:27 PM

My sister, who's a minister, and I, a Pagan, have spent hours discussing this same thing..ish. And even she can't prove to me JC ever existed, consequently, I don't have to disprove it either. If you want to beleive in your God and JC, then believe, but don't shout at people who don't believe in the same god as you. What would happen if people did not go out on May Day to bring up the sun? You can't tell me it's a scientific fact that it would rise as there are too many people all over the world who don't take that chance. I'm happy with my Old Gods and by the way, Happy Imbolc for tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:36 PM

Some of y'all might want to see where some stuff was decided. FYI.

http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum01.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:44 PM

I think I might be thing of "The Lord is My shepard, etc." which is what I have seen/heard used in reform services. I stand corrected, however, my original issue was that the "Our Father" prayer did not go "Our Mother, etc" which disputes the whole God is a woman thing.

God is not a woman, and Dolly Parton is not a man. Only demasculating feminists have trouble with the God is a man thing, I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Morticia
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:57 PM

Anyone watching this particular gentleman's "career" on the Mudcat could see quite easily that he constantly posts for attention or to start contentious arguments on subjects already done to death, such as the censorship thread. He can also be incredibly offensive and innapropriate and the fact that he then apologises, quite frankly, leaves me cold.

I'm just sorry so many people reward him with the attention he clearly craves......it simply feeds his craving.But it was ever thus, I suppose and now I am as bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:59 PM

Must admit I find the 69's and bible bashing a bit creepy.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:00 PM

Martin - have you ever met Her (God, I mean)?

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: MBSLynne
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:04 PM

God isn't a woman...but the Godess is

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:05 PM

Question for Martin Gibson. Who circumcised God?

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: lady penelope
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:10 PM

Let's all remember - It's never to late to have a happy childhood. Just some of us need one more than others..................

Love and kisses

Lady P.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:17 PM

Man, Martin: Even your conversations about God are below the belt. (A hint... God doesn't wear a belt.)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:18 PM

Morticia, why do they call you that? Are you a mortician or are you really Morticia Addams?

GOD IS NOT A WOMAN!

Question for Guest: What size tampons does god (dess) wear?

You moron.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:20 PM

BTW, Morticia, anyone who considers their precense on Mudcat a "career" as you put it, is certainly lacking a life.

I doubt that you have much of one.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: EagleWing
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:26 PM

Martin Gibson says "dinavan, last time I check the Lord's Prayer started "Our Father, etc."

that and why God is referred to as "Him" just about everywhere except in the most feminist of worlds leads me to believe God does not wear a bra and panties."

Actually a reasonable reading of the Bible would show that God has both male and female attributes.

"God created man in his own image male and female he created them.
So God's creation in his own image is both male and female!

Isaiah refers to God "Can a mother desert her children"

This may be a view of God that some Christians find difficult but you will find it there in the Bible. Jesus said of Jerusalem, "How often would I have gathered you under my wings but you would not." Even Jesus uses a female metaphor for himself.

Like many others, I believe that GS' original post was not well thought out - faith is not for proving or disproving, it's for living. But if Martin is going to say things like the above he should at least check out the text-book.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:28 PM

Well said Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: MBSLynne
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:34 PM

Oh dear..Martin must be losing ...he's getting personally offensive again.

Btw Martin...don't make ageist assumptions..I'm waaay over 40 and have a 'good set' but they are nowhere near my shoes..in fact I've seen women twenty or more years younger than me with droopier boobs.

Love Lynne
xx

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:35 PM

Martin, the reason why God is normally referred to as "He" in all those old holy books from the Middle East is because men were running EVERYTHING back then in the Middle East. Men were like little gods in that society. They made the Big God in their own image. Women were little more than baby-makers, slaves, and beasts of burden. They didn't write the books. :-) And that's the only reason for it. It's nothing to be proud of.

It's ridiculous to suppose that God is either male OR female, and even more ridiculous to speculate as to what kind of clothing God would wear! (As if God would need any clothing...!) But, hey, thanks for the laugh! :-) God is a Spirit. Spirit is not limited to one gender or the other.

If God is only masculine, then where did femininity come from, Martin?

(That oughta open a can of worms! Yowsa! I can't wait for the answer.)

Beats me how in the world an independent thinker like you, Martin...a guy who doesn't let other people intimidate him...can let a bunch of bearded, illiterate, primitive, and rather bloodthirsty sheepherders from 3,000 years ago do his thinking for him now in 2005!!!   I'd have figured you for a guy that makes up his own mind from actual experience, rather than relying on the most extraordinarily unlikely hearsay. Specially hearsay from 2,500 or more years ago.

Martin, ol' pal, I am convinced that if you had been born in a Muslim family, you'd be a devout Muslim right now...you might even belong to Hamas or something like that. And if you'd been born in a Hindu family, you'd be consulting the Baghavad Gita for the answers... :-) In the Hindu traditions, God is seen as inclusive of both male and female qualities. That indicates that Hindus are just a wee bit more aware than Middle Easterners used to be 2,500 years ago.

The fact that people are willing to automatically believe stuff that was written 2,500 years ago by someone they never met simply on the basis of faith proves that people are capable of believing anything...as long as it came from a source they regarded as "authoritative" in their particular family or culture. I think that you're an unconscious product of the culture you were born in, Martin...as are most people.

To become free in heart and mind is to think beyond the limits of the culture you were born in.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: EagleWing
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:36 PM

"Only demasculating feminists have trouble with the God is a man thing, I believe."

Wrong. I mistrust feminism (or at least the examples of it I have encountered) but I DO have problems with the "God is a man thing".

God is neither male nor female but has elements of both. I still call God "Father" but I most certainly recognise the "mother" element.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:40 PM

God created man in his image.

He didn't create man in her image.

She came next from his rib if I remember right.

So cut the crap, please. I'm certainly not buying that shit.


MBSLynne, I'm glad to hear about your over 40 perky boobs. As long as you want to talk about them, pink or brown?

Little Hawk, I'm convinced that if you were born to a devout Moslem family, you would have been dead years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:43 PM

If a bunch of male rabbits wrote a book about God, then their God would most certainly be presented as a very powerful male rabbit. :-)

It's that silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:47 PM

"Perky boobs."

I am envisioning that and considering starting a new religion. I'll get back to you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:49 PM

Rabbits don't write books.

But I once had a dream about a growling bunny.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 05:50 PM

Not necessarily, Martin. I've met living Muslims who were free thinkers and still managed to live as long as me... :-)

What IS the image of a Spirit, Martin? Is it a "man"? I don't think so. It's a Spirit. And Spirit is not limited by gender or by physical form.

The "image" spoken of in the holy books is not a physical image, it's a spiritual image. It is consciousness itself, that's what it is.

God is consciousness and self-awareness. So are we...men and women included.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:01 PM

Yes, but if rabbits DID write books, they would portray God as an all-powerful rabbit...most likely male. Male rabbits are very macho and arrogant. I know. I used to take care of the little rascals. About 100 of them. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:01 PM

That's too Christian for me, LH. All of that Holy Spirit trinity stuff. But I do know that I carry God with me in my heart. Jesus though, I sent out for a newspaper and some doughnuts.

But then again, their was "Spirit in the Sky" by Norman Greenbaum, but I heard he might have been one of those loony Jews for Jesus.

Many of them still drive around in old Volkswagens, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:02 PM

No, no, no! You've got it all wrong!

God made Eve first. He made her with three breasts. She looked down and said, "I don't know about this. I think two would be more than sufficient."

So God removed one of the breasts and Eve was happy.

God stood there in the garden and thought, "Now, what can I do with a useless boob?"

Then God made man.

Don (at least that's what some of my women friends tell me) Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:23 PM

Heh! Okayyyyy, then....

So did Jesus come through on that newspaper and donut, Martin?

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: *Laura*
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 06:32 PM

"God knew what she meant when she invented men" -
anonymous quote on a postcard.

Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:25 PM

What is the deal with keeping women down back then (well for that matter, even today in many cultures)? Was it a fear of them? Some kind of inward loathing? Jealousy? I don't know but I posted something very similar today on a different thread about how women were supposed to be quiet. Men were not to be taught by women.
I don't need to go over that again but I would like to say that all this bogus crap about women in the bible, I sure as hell hope that God wasn't a woman! That would be a disgrace to women, that's for sure.

It seems to me I heard long time ago women did do some writing but those books ended up 'missing'.

Peace, Rustic