Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 04:23 AM

I don't quite know how it got onto colour, but was trying to say that I've not heard of a single example of an African, trader or otherwise, visiting Gaelic lands prior to the 15th century. It's just wishful thinking to talk of African influence on Gaelic music at that time. Not a shred of evidence or a likely supposition to support this idea.
Anyway the Berbers contained plenty of blacks, but these were generally slaves or descendants of slaves and mercenaries. And regardless of their skin, the important factor here is the culture. North African music is very different from, say, West African. I don't think they had much influence on the music in Britain and Ireland, because frankly, they were only there for the slave raiding.
They do pop up in folksong, but that's simply because the raids were a frequent occurence from the 16th to the early 18th century.

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Big Tim
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 04:27 AM

Many of the comments on the program from those who disagreed with the theory, it seemed to me, were based on gut reaction, rather than on a dispassionate consideration of the "facts" as given, such as they were.

Of the sort that goes, "the whites robbed us of everything; homeland, culture, language, freedom, dignity, and now they are claiming the last thing that truly identifies us: gospel singing".

"But the man propounding the theory is himself black"?                                                            

"It wouldn't be the first time that a friendly black has been used to promote white sumremacy"                                          

The Prof was portrayed by one young black English guy as a virtual Uncle Tom.

The (English black) program presenter tiptoed around this issue, but I still thought he handled a difficult subject, aimed at a general audience, very well.

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: GUEST,Fiosrach
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:38 AM

I thought there should be some comparison of the music black (majority) and white (majority) congregations in the churches in N Carolina. The whites also have an inheritance from the Scottish settlers; what did the people of African descent add to the church music?

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:54 AM

As well as he could in the circumstances given the size and difficulty of the issue and the constraint of a one hour prog. It seems to me symptomatic of current TV formats that a very interesting question was raised but ended up with a very superficial treatment, while the controversial side was constantly stirred. As I remember it only one of those asked for their opinion of the profs opinion was actualy presented with any music/evidence and he reversed his opiniom/gut reaction.

We have a middle class English actor, who has changed his name to something he feels more appropriate than the one given to him by his parents, talking with authority on the history of music in America. We are supposed to give him credence because he is a TV personality who appears in a popular soap.

I thought the programme raised some very interesting questions on which most people like me are not in any position to draw definitive conclusions on. There has been some very interesting and informed ccomment in this thread as a follow on. It is just a huge shame that the British media is so pathetic that we are unlikely to see this issue looked at in any depth, with an emphasis on research rather than celebrity opinion.

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:52 AM

Well, Well, Well! Following some threads about the history of Gospel music I came acroo this post from 2 years ago

Subject: RE: History of spirituals
From: sian, west wales - PM
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 06:45 AM

A study into the roots of gospel music by a U.S. professor -- an accomplished musician who has played with Duke Ellington and Dizzy Gillespie -- has led him to conclude that the "good news" music sung in black American churches originated in Scotland, not Africa. Willie Ruff of Yale University said the roots of the music derived from evangelical spirituals and had more to do with the crofters of the Outer Hebrides than slaves on U.S. plantations. Prof. Ruff, 71, a Baptist from Alabama, told Britain's Independent newspaper: "I, like everyone else, assumed [the music] was unique to black congregations in the United States . . . but I began to wonder if it was performed by white congregations in the same way." He discovered that some black U.S. slaves owned by Scottish immigrants spoke only Gaelic. However, it wasn't until he travelled to Scotland, and heard psalm singing in Gaelic, that he became convinced of the common roots: "I was struck by the similarity, the pathos, the emotion, the cries of suffering and the deep, deep belief in a brighter, promising hereafter."


Curiously the discussion only ran for two more postings. Is that because of the relative audience numbers on Channel 4 and The Independant, because of the effect actually hearing some of the music in question had on us, because catters now are more willing to consider the issues, or because the replies made further discussions a bit pointless:
Subject: RE: History of spirituals
From: masato sakurai - PM
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 11:04 PM

There was much debate over the origins in the first half of the 20th century. D.K. Wilgus discussed it in a chapter titled "The Negro-White Spiritual" in his Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898 (Rutgers UP, 1959, pp. 344-364); the chapter is reprinted in Mother Wit from the Laughing Barrel: Readings in the Interpretation of Afro-American Folklore, edited by Alan Dundes (U. Pr. of Mississippi, 1990, pp. 67-80). Wilgus quotes from Bruno Nettl a position of the "compromise theorists", who "do not hold that the melodies of the American Negroes originated in Africa, but assume that the Negroes have taken over tunes of the whites and combined with them African stylistic traits--hot rhythm, much variation, preference for part-singing, antiphony, and response," saying that "study is revealing that a simple cencept of origin is not only misleading, but nonsensical."

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Goose Gander
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:39 AM

Has Willie Ruff published his findings in any books are articles? I googled around his name but only found references to newspaper articles and the BBC program. I would like to see what source he uses(other than contempory gospel and Hebridean religious music), how he evaluates his sources and how he develops his argument. For all I know, his published work may be much more careful than the program (which I admittedly did'nt see, though it sounds like it was designed to get a reaction and to gain publicity).

D.K. Wilgus took up the historiography of this question iin the final chapter of Anglo-American Folksong scholarship(1959). Responding to Rudi Blesh's Shining Trumpets (1946), he noted:

"Pentatonic and hexatonic scale structures and microtonal flatting, especially of thirds and sevenths, may be African survivals; they are also a part of Anglo-American music.... And antiphony (call and response) is an African technique that has some slight parallel in the rendition of white folk hymn." (p.359)

And in 1914, Henry Kriebel noted Scottish parallels to African-American music, though he was sceptical regarding a direct connection.

"....

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Goose Gander
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 10:51 AM

...and before I accidently hit the enter button, I wanted to conclude by saying that I believe Ruff definately is on to something, though if he is going to argue for a Gaelic Scottish connection to the exclusion of other influences, he has to explain why other European and non-European influences would not have had any impact upon this particular form.

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 12:58 PM

I'd love to see this program... it seems to me that what might have been missing in the discussion is the comparison between the Lewis style and the style of rural white southern U.S. singers. A number of years back, Vic Gammon (a Brit, for those who don't know him -- Senior Lecturer on Folk and Traditional Music at Newcastle University, formerly at Leeds) was on staff at Pinewoods Folk Music Week (U.S., for those who don't know it). He brought along a sampler compilation of various interesting singing styles (wonderfully entitled "Religious music and other fruity vocals from Europe and the USA") to compare and contrast. Among them, a couple of tracks described thusly:

"Lining psalms and hymns, 'the old style of singing' (the heterophonic style that preceded the reform represented by shape note music and 'west gallery music'. From Lewis (Hebrides) and Kentucky (1959)"

The Kentucky sample was from a rural white church congregation.

I was astounded by the apparent relationship between these two samples. The "lining out" or "presenting" aspect of the form is certainly not the only thing comparable in the structure. The scale(s), the individualistic variations, the microtonal ornamentation... Also, in listening again this morning, I'm also struck by the lack of regular rythm, like the Irish "sean nos" I've heard. I don't think I've ever heard any African American music be so arrhythmic.

I wish there was some way to attach sound samples here; if I had a web site I'd link them. (I could send them to anyone who's interested - PM me.)

The sound seems to me to be distant from modern white or black gospel, though certainly related. That particular Kentucky church sound is probably extinct now, or certainly nearly so.

So I'd say, that if the programs presenters missed a piece of the puzzle in presenting their story if they didn't get that in. "Call and response" style singing is widespread in the world, and when white and black singers met they undoubtedly both brought that to the table (although there are subtle differences between the nature of "lining out"/"presenting" and "call and response". The interchange after that is interesting to speculate on.

Also, I'm making assumptions that "presenting" and "lining out" are terms for same thing...? And, thanks for the refs. to the discussing by Wilgus and others.

~ Becky in Tucson
(home from work with a snuffling boy)

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 02:05 PM

Here's a nice site about Gaelic Psalm Singing.

Apparently "presenting" is a verbification of a mondegreen on "precentor", I see? :-) ...a distinctive style of singing in the Gaelic language, where the psalms are sung a cappella (without musical accompaniment), and led by a precentor (literally 'one who sings beforehand').

There are links at this site to popular articles on the topic and Willie Ruff's "discoveries" about the connection between Scottish psalm singing and and Black gospel, including the one Shambles copied here.

In the Sunday Herald article, "After Elvis … the Scottish roots of soul and gospel" by Torcuil Crichton, he says,

After some research Ruff discovered that the form of psalm singing did not survive among US Presbyterians or in England. "People said if I wanted to hear white Presby terians sing this way I'd have to go to Scotland and the Presbyterians in the Free Church. It was rumoured they sang this way in their native Gaelic."

I am not able to lay my hands on my notes from Folk Music Week '03 and I don't have any information about the recording of the Kentucky congregation that Vic included. Presumably, if it's not on a commercial recording somewhere, it's in the Library of Congress archives somewhere. I'll send him a note and see if I can find out.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 02:17 PM

Got an autoreply that Vic's on leave for the spring semester. Hope he's checking his e-mail. :-)

~ B in T

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 02:23 PM

Gosh it's hard to be sure you're contributing intelligently to discussion of a program you haven't seen... but, craving your indulgence:

On this site, Willie Ruff himself says,

"On a visit to Alabama I noticed for the first time that a small congregation of black Presbyterians -- a denomination that never succeeded in getting a foothold in the Baptist, Methodist and Sanctified world of my childhood -- were thriving across the river from where I grew up. More importantly, they were holding onto the line singing that white Presbyterians in America and the English speaking world abandoned more than a century ago."

The first part of that statement's interesting -- the existance of a black Presbyterian group singing in that old style. The second sentence looks like hyperbole or innocent ignorance -- if Vic Gammon's Kentucky 1959 singers were white, as I have assumed they were.

~ B in T

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:26 PM

Here's an article on a different twist in the path from Old World to New: The Past Returns to the Present: Archaic British hymn-singing practices survive in London's West Indian churches. Yes, lining out, but a whole 'nother sound. I hear Eastern European / medieval / ?

And this (lengthy!) article "Praise: The Melody of Religion" opens by tying in the sound of the Jewish synagogue... About 2/3 of the way down, you get to Gaelic Psalmody, and the discussion compares the Black West Indies style of lining out...

It also mentions "Black Baptist churches in the United States have a practice which they call 'Dr. Watts' or 'Long Metre' (cf. the Scottish term 'Long Tunes'), and the old Regular Baptist Churches in eastern Kentucky apparently come closer than that in resemblance to the singing of the Gaelic precentors (see T.E. Miller, article on Oral Psalmody in Journal of the Hymn Society of America, January 1984)." Which leads me to wonder who Dr. Watts was, and is he any relation to Isaac Watts, the early 18th century hymn writer??

me, Googling? Guilty!

And hopping over to sample D.K. Wilgus (on paper, really!) I find (as has already been pointed out) there's nothing new under the sun in folk music discussion ('specially on Mudcat, where so many of us are enthusiasts, rather than scholars):

"To define the nature of the argument, one may pose the problem: what elements in the Negro spiritual have been borrowed from the music of the North American whites and what are due to an African heritage and/or the Negroes' own creation in American? Whatever the confusion in some minds, no serious student has imaginged that Negroes disembarked in Virginia singing "Deep River" or "Roll, Jordan." And whatever the confusion in some minds, no reputable scholar who has studied the problem has ever said that Negroes merely imitated or echoed white song. The issue lies between the extremes; and it is unfortunate that a few early commentators and the hysterical fringes of both sides have obscured the problem."

I think echoes my view of the "ownership" issue. I'd rather just continue with my fascination with attempting to trace the entangled threads of relationship among all our musics.

~ B in T
I've already said... time on my hands

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: GUEST,Michael Morris at work.
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 03:51 PM

Thanks for your comments and the mustrad.org.uk article. It seems funny that questions of origins become questions of ownership. The music belongs to whoever sings it and, vicariously at least, to anyone who enjoys it.

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:19 PM

For those curious, here is a Willie Ruff Biography. I don't think that he would understand any of this "ownership" business--if anything is clear about him, it is that he believes that all music is a shared culture, and the more people who have contributed to it, the better--

Just to mix things up a bit, I will point out that, contrary to what many may believe, the first American Black Protestant congregations used the same Hymnals and sang the same hymns that everybody else did(many still do). The music that we associate with Black Gospel, the Thomas Dorsey stuff, is new, not traditional. The traditional stuff has always been very far from the mainstream--

It's all good.

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: sian, west wales
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:27 PM

Good lord, Robbie, did I post that? I have NO memory of it!

I did see the programme and thought it was interesting as far as it went, but I did feel that it should have explored, at least in passing, what the black participants 'brought to the table'. I also could be slightly critical about the fact that they slipped in just a snippet of Sacred Harp in the background at one point - I'm not sure if it wasn't a clip from Cold Mountain. Some researcher wasn't paying attention; that wasn't the style of music under discussion, neither was it sung by the community under discussion. Having read Beverly Bush Patterson's "Sound of the Dove", I think there could be an equally interesting programme linking the Sacred Harp / Fasola singing tradition with early Welsh Baptists.

siân

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 05:33 PM

Thanks to those now producing the obvious references to the fact that this style of singing is nothing uniquely to do with the Scottish Gaelic culture of the Isle of Lewis; this was merely a bit of TV bollocks to provoke controversy. The truth of folklore(insofar as we can approach it) is always more interesting than the fakelore, even if TV moguls think bogus arguments are more fun.
Music is beautiful, as are different peoples' interactions with each other. But the programme was half good, because it made us listen to music and think about it. Why they felt they had to include the drivel is their problem.
    And now, the chord sequence of Thomas A Dorsey's "Precious Lord Take my Hand", the start of modern gospel. But surely Elizbethan English?

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 06:23 PM

M. Ted,
With regard to your comment: "The music that we associate with Black Gospel, the Thomas Dorsey stuff, is new, not traditional. The traditional stuff has always been very far from the mainstream--",

The words "traditional" and "mainstream" mean different things to different people. And iss music created in the 1930s new? I guess it compared with other music genres yes-and no.

There are a number of Internet sites on Thomas Dorsey. Here are excerpts from one of those sites:

"During the early 1930s, Thomas Dorsey created gospel music -- the African American religious music which married secular blues to a sacred text. Under the name "Georgia Tom" he performed with blues artist Ma Rainey and her Wild Cats Jazz Band. He wrote over 400 compositions, but it is for "Take My Hand, Precious Lord" that he is best known.

..in August 1932, Dorsey's life was thrown into crisis when his wife and son died during childbirth. In his grief, he turned to the piano for comfort. The tune he wrote, "Take My Hand, Precious Lord," came, he says, direct from God. Dorsey co-founded the National Convention of Gospel Choirs and Choruses in 1933. Six years later, he teamed with Mahalia Jackson, and the team ushered in what was known as the "Golden Age of Gospel Music." Dorsey himself became known as the father of gospel music. He died in 1993. "

end of quote

For more information on Thomas Dorsey click here:
Father of The Gospel Music

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 23 Mar 05 - 07:44 PM

saw a documentary called Irish in America
and Pete Seeger sang Rock a my soul in the bosom of Abraham
(repeated 3times)
and then sang the rhythm da da da da da da
da da da, da da da..
and guess what,
albeit slightly speeded up, it was an Irish 6/8 jig,
in fact sounded like the Irish Washerwoman..

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 12:31 AM

And this means what?

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:53 AM

Thanks to those now producing the obvious references to the fact that this style of singing is nothing uniquely to do with the Scottish Gaelic culture of the Isle of Lewis; this was merely a bit of TV bollocks to provoke controversy.

I take that you have now seen all of the programme?

Would you contend that black gospel music is not uniquely rooted in the non-African religion that it still worships?

Surely if you are not allowing Willie Ruff to state that the roots of this particular style uniquely comes from this Gaelic culture - you cannot state that it clearly does not.

What I heard and saw on the film - tends to convince me that - more than likely it does.

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Big Tim
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 04:15 AM

Willie Ruff from the program:
"I would say that this tradition [Scots Gaelic] is part of the DNA of every kind of musical expression that blacks have done in this country. Ask Aretha Frankin, ask Mahalia Jackson".

Also, Dr. Bobby Jones, "the Godfather of Soul", before he saw the Scots singing,

"[Gospel] has nothing to do with white culture".

After he heard the Scots,

"The similarites are so much there, the only basic difference is the language. It sounds like blacks singing".

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 08:48 AM

I know Dr. Bobby Jones * and Dr. Bobby Jones is no "Godfather of Soul".

James Brown is the Godfather of Soul.

;o)

* At least I know Dr. Bobby Jones from watching his television gospel programs.

Maybe Dr. Bobby Jones can be given the tag "The Television Music Director of Black Gospel" or some such title that credits him for the excellent work he has done in providing a forum for folks who can get his program to hear new and veteran African American gospel singers.

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Big Tim
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 10:59 AM

Yes, for "soul" substitute "gospel" in my post. Just wait, Azizi, until I spot a mistake by you!

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:25 AM

Big Tim, LOL!!

Well you won't have to wait at all if you count my typos..

Peace!

Azizi

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:37 AM

Shambles: I'm only making one point, and it's a very narrow, and possibly pedantic one. The fact that lining-out is practised on the Isle of Lewis in 2005 does not prove that it wasnt practised anywhere else in 1740; it doesnt even suggest it.
   But I am perfectly willing to believe that Scottish music influenced gospel music: of course it did. And so did gospel music influence modern Scottish music.

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:56 AM

And BTW, M. Ted,

I think Thomas Dorsey is called the Father of Gospel.

LOL!!

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:57 AM

but then again, you did write "Godfather" and not "Father".

Peace!

Azizi

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 12:03 PM

Sorry!! my post was really supposed to be directed to Big Tim.
{Does it count if you quickly catch your mistakes?}

This shows that I can't do ten things at one time..

Who am I was I talking to anyway??..Big Tim or M. Ted or both or myself..or everybody or nobody???!!!

Chose which ever..

LOL!!

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: sian, west wales
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 01:07 PM

DesertDancer, as I mentioned above, it seems that various academics aren't making enough distinction between various forms of religious music. If 'Dr Watts' referred to Isaac Watts (and it's entirely possible it does) then this could be of interest. I've translated the following from a Welsh book, "The History of Congregational Singing in Wales": "In the Forward, he (Watts) said, 'that there is a need for tunes more supple and free than the old Psalms and their slow, graceful movement ... In Germany hymns are found arranged to short, lively and sweet tunes - those that small holders at plough would hear, and children on the road would sing. ... (He) put tunes of this style in the book (his Lyra Davidica) in order to break the practice of singing one note for each syllable, and brought to Church music tunes with two, three and four notes for each syllable. Having thus brought them in, the style was emulated by Wales' composers, and continued until they were condemned by Ieuan Gwyllt, Emlyn Evans, and others." (Other Welsh hymnists)

As a side note, Ieuan Gwyllt actually did use a lot of folk tunes of the time (saving many of them from disappearing, so the Nonconformists were all bad!) but perhaps this was all part and parcel of that started by Luther, trying to make the words more understandable and not obscured by overly-embroidered tunes. Which ties us into a thread I took part in a few weeks back about Luther and the Roman Catholic church response.

Oh, and Welsh chapels also used precentors, although we call them Codwyr Canu (sing. = codwr canu = the one who raises up the singing). Many of them still maintain the position, although with pretty much global literacy the lining out no longer happens.

siân

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 03:38 AM

Shambles: I'm only making one point, and it's a very narrow, and possibly pedantic one. The fact that lining-out is practised on the Isle of Lewis in 2005 does not prove that it wasnt practised anywhere else in 1740; it doesnt even suggest it.

For what it is worth - we are now in complete agreement. It is a very narrow and possibly pedantic one...*Smiles*

BTW did you ever manage to see the rest of the programme?

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 05:04 AM

Shambles: alas, I havent managed to see the second half yet. Not of course that prevents me from pontificating on the subject. But it has caused me to listen to my Isle of Lewis recordings with great attention and enjoyment. I will freely admit that on first listening, to the untutored ear, they do sound remarkably like a recording by Alan Lomax of Henry "Ironhead" Boggatt and fellow inmates of Parchman Farm.
    But only on first listening!

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 01:06 PM

Smithsonian Folkways has two CDs of lined-out heterophonic hymn singing from Old Regular Baptist congregations in Southern Appalachia. The catalogue numbers are 40106 and 50001.

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Mar 05 - 06:00 PM

Here's Vic Gammon's response to my query as well as his thoughts on the program:

Hi Becky,

Good to hear from you. I have now seen the programme. You are quite right that Southern white Old Regular Baptists did and some still do perform in a style that is very close to the singers of Lewis. I think the recordings I played at Pinewoods are from an old Alan Lomax compilation - I have just moved and cannot get my hands on anything to check up.

There are two CDs of recordings made by Jeff Todd Titon (who for goodness sake should have been on the programme) of Old Regular Baptists of South-eastern Kentucky, Smithsonian Folkways SF CD 40106 and SFW CD 50001.

The programme made a significant number of mistakes:

    * Not knowing about the Southern white performers who are still practising the style
    * Not knowing that the style was much more widespread in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries than just the Scottish Islands - it is NOT an exclusively Gaelic style although no doubt the Islanders put there own particular flavour on. It was widespread in England as well as Scotland until driven out by church music reformers
    * Including some shape note performance as background music - this is exactly the 'regular singing' style that drove out the older form
    * The depiction of music expressing the geography or the history is romantic nonsense. The programme did not mention that the Islands produced some of the finest tweed cloth made in Britain - although they used a 'waulking' (tweed processing) song in the background.

As for the whole thing about is the style the same or not - it is a question badly put. If we consider five elements of the style, it seems to me four of the five have great commonality, and one does not.

That is:

Hetereophony (individual simultaneous variation of a single melodic line) - Both
Pentatonic scales - Both
Lining out / call and response - Both
Voice production / timbre - Both full, chest voiced styles, similarities
Rhythm - Different

I certainly feel that the surging, non-pulsed quality of the Lewis and Kentucky singers is different from the swung rhythm I hear in most gospel music - if you are looking for an African element, I think it is here. (Although this does not explain where the rhythmic quality of shape note music comes from, although it is not swung in the way that gospel is).

The key point about the North American musical synthesis (or should that be syntheses) is that elements came together when there was sufficient commonality for them to do so. It is sad that people are so hung up about origins and a sort of essentialism - is it black music or white music? Of course gospel is a music nurtured and developed by African Americans, but the elements that made it, like black Christianity, are both European and African.

Nice to be able to express this to someone. I could not get through to the thread but if you want to stick it on please do (if so please include my land contact address and email).

Best wishes,

Vic

PS I may be in the US next year, Easter time - anything interesting happening?

Dr Vic Gammon
Senior Lecturer in Folk and Traditional Music
International Centre for Music Studies
School of Arts and Cultures
Armstrong Building
The University of Newcastle
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE1 7RU

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:23 PM

Refresh - to be sure people catch Vic's comments

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 01:05 AM

Thinking about this again, and hoping Vic's comments weren't wasted here - maybe a refresh closer to the weekend will help?

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 10:28 PM

Thanks Desert Dancer for your efforts in getting those comments.

I guess those who are interested in this subject will find this thread whether you refresh now or at another time.

I've noticed that threads from 1997 on have been reactivated at various times because some new information is found, new posters find them & add a comment or question, and/or a veteran 'Catter wants to add another post on that subject.

The thread then is given new life...And it is actually new for alot of people since I suppose that new people come here everyday.

So if it's time for this thread to retire for a while, it doesn't mean that it will never be activated again.

Best wishes,
Azizi

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: BB
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 07:48 PM

Becky, don't worry. Vic said it all, and I for one felt quite satisfied after reading his post. That may well be why there have been no further comments.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 08:07 PM

I just know how depressing it is to feel like a thread killer. Thanks for your replies!

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 08:34 PM

Becky,

You are not a thread killer.

Now I have the last post in this thread.

I found it very interesting and hope to read more about the subject.


Thanks.


Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 06 May 05 - 08:02 PM

There was bit on the topic on NPR's Morning Edition this morning, concerning a conference at Yale Univerisity. The Appalachian white Primitive Baptist singing was brought in, but for the UK sources, still only the Scottish/Gaelic was mentioned.

The following is from the conference website:

Line Singing Conference and concluding "Singing Service" at Yale
May 5 and 6, 2005

Common roots of centuries-old psalm singing traditions in Scotland and among blacks in the Deep South, discovered by Willie Ruff, will be celebrated at Yale Conference Singers from the Scottish Hebrides, Kentucky, and Alabama will join scholars for two days of talks, demonstrations, and "A Jubilee Conjoining" May 5 and 6

The startling connection between a centuries-old form of psalm-singing in the Highlands of Scotland and a similar tradition among descendants of African slaves in America and the West Indies will be explored at a conference at Yale University on May 5 and 6, 2005. The highlight of the historic event will be a singing service, in which the practitioners of this musical form of worship from Scotland, Kentucky, and Alabama will join in "Singing the lines" from the Psalms of David. The featured singers include twelve members of the Free Church Psalm Singers of the Isle of Lewis, Scotland; twenty members of the Indian Bottom Old Regular Baptists of Southeastern Kentucky, and twenty members of the Sipsey River Primitive Baptist Association of Eutaw, Alabama.

The Yale Conference on Line Singing has been organized by Yale music professor Willie Ruff, who discovered the connections between the European and New World traditions. Ruff had been intrigued by stories shared by his old friend, the late jazz legend and trumpeter Dizzy Gillespie, that black slaves in North and South Carolina spoke and worshipped in Gaelic. In 2003, Ruff visited the Scottish Hebrides islands and found remote congregations worshipping in a manner similar to what he heard in Alabama as he was growing up. He asserts that Scottish settlers in America passed on their forms of worship and religious musical traditions to their slaves, with remnants of this tradition still heard among isolated congregations on both sides of the Atlantic. Consequently, "presenting the line," the unaccompanied singing of psalms in Gaelic by Presbyterians of the Scottish Hebrides, is itself at the root of "lining out," a practice found among many black congregations in the American South.

The connection between the Scottish and American traditions has stirred an enormous amount of interest in Great Britain and the United States. In addition to a number of newspaper articles, three television documentaries have already been made for Scottish television (one version in Gaelic), filmed partly during a visit to Alabama by Scottish line singers last year.

----

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Gospel music and Gaelic
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 12 May 05 - 06:17 AM


Americans line up to hear psalm singing in Gaelic [Scotsman article]

BEN MCCONVILLE
in New Haven

AMERICA last week witnessed a new explosion in interest in Scottish culture after a group of Gaels touched a nerve in a way that Tartan Week could not.

More than 16 million listeners tuned in to National Public Radio to hear a group of Gaelic psalm singers from Back Free Church in Lewis perform alongside Baptist congregations from Kentucky and Alabama.

The Gaels are in the US to take part in a conference on line singing at Yale University alongside a white congregation of Old Regular Baptists from Kentucky and a black Primitive Baptist church from Killen, Alabama.

After the broadcast the switchboard at Yale was jammed as Americans scrambled to get tickets for a concert in which the three congregations were to 'line out' an ancient form of worship, which was once common throughout Europe and the US.

The international conference on line singing was arranged by Willie Ruff, a professor of music who has played with some of the giants of jazz, including Dizzy Gillespie, Duke Ellington and Miles Davis.

Ruff says "precenting the line" - the traditional unaccompanied singing of psalms in Gaelic in the Presbyterian churches in the Hebrides - is one of the predecessors of 'lining out', still practised in black churches in the South.

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 11 Dec 05 - 10:05 PM

I think the link will change, so here's the text, from the Latest News at Musical Traditions:

Reading the Line

A booklet has just been published which sheds new light on the English-language equivalent of Gaelic psalm-singing in Scotland.

Reading the Line: an English-language Lining-out tradition in Presbyterian Scotland looks at the practice of 'giving out the line'. Gaelic psalmody has preserved this singing style, but it was once standard practice in the Scottish Lowlands and actually came into Scotland due to English influence.

The book traces the rise and decline of 'reading the line' in English throughout Scotland as well as its re-emergence in that language in one denomination, the Free Presbyterian Church, in the twentieth-century. The booklet also includes a brief survey of the North American versions of the lining-out tradition and the distribution of Gaelic services in the Free Church of Scotland and other groups in the islands and throughout Scotland in the present day. Painstaking research in libraries and in discussion with older people in the Highland mainland is reflected in the detailed and carefully-referenced chapters.

The author, Stornoway-based Norman Campbell, states in the opening page that he wishes to 'add to the discussion' initiated by the claims of Prof Willie Ruff of Yale University that US Gospel music was influenced by the Gaelic-language lining-out worship tradition, brought to North Carolina by Highland settlers. The booklet is aimed at anyone interested in church and social history, bilingualism and cultural change, as well as areas such as the Islands, Ross-shire, Caithness and Sutherland.

All profits from the sale of the 32-page booklet, which costs �4.99, will go to the Bethesda Hospice and Care Home in Stornoway. The booklet is available for �5:75 (inc post and package) from Norman Campbell, 2 Garden Rd, Stornoway, Isle of Lewis, Scotland, HS1 2QJ.

dated 5.12.05

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:51 PM

Rod Stradling's review/summary of the booklet above is at MT here. Not much to add to this discussion, but in case anyone's interested...

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Goose Gander
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 07:45 PM

Here's something related if anyone is interested . . . .

John Wyeth and the Development of Southern Folk Hymnody

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: blind will
Date: 26 Mar 06 - 01:31 AM

Hope nobody minds a late comer!

This has been a very interesting thread and has inspired me to write my first post on mudcat cafe.I've already learned things I didn't know before from others hear and some of my thinking has been corrected in the process.

The lined out genre that came from Britian (including Gaelic Psalm singing) was an important contribution to the early development of black religious music in the States.It also had impact on atleast some of what we call black gospel today (however watered down).But other European roots should not be overlooked.Nor should African factors not be considered.

One thing that would be good to remember is that black church/black religious music has come in a diversity of musical styles.Black American sacred song didn't all begin with one specific style or hybrid, with everything else following it's foot steps.This is a lengthy sample of it's diversity:

________________ Black Lining Out ________________

This black religious style (often called surge singing) was probably the first African/European hybrid to be common in black churches.It has African vocal qualities and other African traits, but shares the undanceable irregular rhythmn of white/British styles of Lining out.So far I've only heard one example of this type of singing (among black Americans) and it had the same slow focus as the whites I've heard, just extra slow.It sounded like a bunch of black men trying to sing at a funeral, not shure of what musical direction they were going to take.(Not a racist comment, just my way of describing it).The lyrics they were singing were from the popular Amazing Grace hymn, but to a totally different tune (and almost no tune).

__________ Ring Shout __________

In much contrast to the black lined out songs is the ring shout.This style is essentially an African type of music with little or no influence from European music, different sources suggesting that it's origin is in Africa.But it's emotional tendacys may often owe something to white religious fervor such as the "Irish Shouters" of 18th Century Ireland.It is characterised by a very repetitive sound, shouting, circle dancing, stomped out rhythmns (often sounding like a drum) and sometimes even yodelling or screaming.Put in the black spiritual category, it was not only found in black churches but also in the racially mixed revivals, Methodist meetings and camp services of the 18th and 19th centuries.While many whites questioned the ring shouts or thought they were pagan, other whites joined in and did it in their own white churches.In the 20th Century the ring shout was preserved in black Pentecostal/Holiness churches and echos of it's sound can be heard in the more dramatic and rocking types of black gospel today.

_____________________________ The Revival/Camp Meeting Song _____________________________

This style is more associated with the "white folk hymn" tradition, being more upbeat or regular than the lined out genre.But it initially began as the result of black slaves and whites freely singing together in the early American revival/Methodist/camp scene--causing a sound that mixed British based folk melodies (often drawing on ballads) with African music elements.It is characterised by simple and repeated texts, often using clapping, minor keys and a "flatted 7th scale".One song from this tradition is the popular "Give Me That Old Time Religion" sung for years in both black and white churches.It had a indirect influence on all the music we commonly call black gospel.

__________________________ Black Spiritual folk music __________________________

In it's original folk form, black spirituals came in atleast three styles: the very African ring shout (mentioned earlier), the partially formed blues or primitive blues style that often spoke of sorrow or death (sometimes sung in a ethereal unison blues chant) and the more upbeat/hopefull sounds of songs like Swing Low, Sweet Chariot.The common European musical elements that did crop up in the spritual folk song came from the white religious world that the slaves were exposed to.And most of that exposure came from two styles--the irregular lined out songs (including Gaelic Psalm tunes) and the more regular revival/camp meeting song.I have notised interesting similarities between Gaelic Psalm singing and the unison-blues chant I've heard from the black church.

_____________________ Barbershop Spirituals _____________________

A trend that began in the 19th century was singing black spirituals in close barbershop quartet harmony style.Barbershop itself was an originally black American style, despite it's strong European feel (atleast compelling evidence supports such a claim).It goes back to atleast the early 184O's and was popular in "black minstrel shows" where whites made fun of blacks.My own research suggests that it took much of it's smooth European sound from a type of 4 part harmony music that came to the States from Austria.(Mennonites of German origin also have a 4 part harmony music that bares strong similarities to barbershop).Mixed with elements of black spiritual song the smooth Austrian harmonies became barbershop, forming the foundation of all black American quartet harmony.By the early decades of the 20th Century, singing black spirituals in barbershop style became even more predominate, popularised by black university singers that were known as "jubilee quartets".Eventually the barbershop spirituals would spread from the universities to the black churches.By expanding this religious barbershop sound with new musical influences (eg. the gospel of Thomas Dorsey) the black gospel quartet sound began.

------------------------

The examples above already give an idea of the diverse roots of black gospel and black American religious music in general.Other styles such as a black tradition of sacred harp singing could also be cited.Eventually I will try to give a more direct look at black gospel as a whole, but first I'll wait for some possible feedback!

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Azizi
Date: 17 May 06 - 07:53 PM

Wow!

blind will, thank you so very much for that post. Somehow I missed reading it when it was first posted.

I hope that you don't mind that I'm including your comment on the "African Music Threads & Posts" thread. Though it's not 'souly' ;0) about African music, I feel your comments fit in that listing of threads about African music.

I hope that you are still part of the Mudcat community.

In case you miss this post, I'll pm you this message.

Best wishes, Azizi

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: blind will
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 09:56 PM

Azizi,

I just saw your reply to me tonight!

No problem with using my comments on the African thread you mentioned.I'll have to check it out some time.

**I hope that you are still part of the Mudcat community.**

Thanks.Hopefully I'll show my head a little more around hear in the future.And I'll probably do atleast one more post hear sometime.

Anyway, see you later!

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 10:03 PM

Blind Will, sorry, I can't help it. In response to your last statement, I have ta say:

After while, crocodile!

:o}

****

I look forward to more comments from you, blind will!!!

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 10:35 PM

Btw, Blind Will,

I know that you only gave us a teaser, but I'm wondering why you didn't mention call & response vocal [not to mention instrumental] patterns in your initial comments.

Just as background for some who may not be aware of this pattern, see this quote:

"One predominant style of music that is still retained and was brought to America during the slavery period of the early 1600s to 1865, is the call and response pattern in which a leader sings a line and the entire group answers. Typical styles also included drums and other percussion instruments played a complex rhythmic accompaniment. (Sound familiar? A good example of this call and response style with syncopated rhythms can be heard by Ray Charles who used this to great advantage on his hit "What'd I Say")."

Source: Crosscurrents: History of Gospel Music

That website begins the discussion of this subject with this quote:

"There can be little doubt that shouting is a survival of the African "possession" by the gods... it is a sign of special favor from the spirit that it chooses to drive out the individual consciousness temporarily and use the body for its express..."
-Zora Neal Hurston,
The Sanctified Church

Subject: RE: Gospel music is Gaelic? UK TV 21 Mar
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 10:42 PM

Furthermore, blind will, since nothing complicated is ever simple, I'm hoping that you also would 'talk' about the influence of Caribbean music on African American religious music.

For those interested, here's a background quote:

"The Bongo Nation is a distinct group of Jamaicans descended from indentured servants. They are known for Kumina, which refers to both a religion and a form of music. Kumina's distinctive drumming style became one of the roots of Rastafarian drumming, itself the source of the distinctive Jamaican rhythm heard in ska, rocksteady and reggae.

The modern intertwining of Jamaican religion and music can be traced back to the 1860s, when the Pocomania and Revival Zion churches drew on African and Christian traditions and incorporated music into almost every facet of worship. Later, this trend spread into Hindu communities, made up of the many coolies (ethnic Indians on the island), resulting in baccra music. The spread of Rastafarianism into urban Jamaica in the 1960s transformed the Jamaican music scene, which incorporated nyabhingi drumming, played at grounation ceremonies into popular music."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Jamaica

-snip-


And here's an excerpt from another online article:

There are two compelling reasons why the study of Caribbean music should be more integrated into the larger field of American music. First, as scholars of world music have argued for some time, the Caribbean, the southern United States, and parts of coastal South America form a unified musical region where the fusion of European, African, and (occasionally) Amerindian traditions has shaped vernacular musical practice for centuries. Creolized Caribbean forms like the Cuban son, the Puerto Rican plena, the Trinidadian calypso, and Haitian Vodou music have much in common with American hybrid genres such as spirituals, blues, early jazz, and gospel music. Second, the diaspora of Caribbean music to the United States in the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries has indelibly shaped the vernacular music cultures of urban centers like New Orleans, New York, and Miami. Moreover, transnational interchange among Caribbean, Latin, and North American urban centers promises to foster some of the new century's most imaginative popular styles."

ISAM Newsletter: Caribbean Roundup