Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Don Firth Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:49 AM I agree. Don Firth |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Sep 06 - 02:27 AM I don't know about anybody else, but I find the title of this thread offensive. You may not have agreed with Ewan about everything and, I can see one or two folks here bumped into him on a bad night. but I thought he was more than all right, and I don't mean as an artist - I mean as a person. And he had a son Hamish, I seem to remember. He was into music. It wouldn't be very nice for him to see his Dad talked of as a coward and traitor. I mean, fair enough - if he'd been a serial murderer or something, but he wasn't. I remember chatting with Martin Carthy onetime - must have been about a year before he Ewan died. From what Martin said, I don't think he saw eye to eye with Ewan about everything - but thats how it should be between two great artists. Anyway Martin had just done done a gig with him, and Ewan had suffered an angina attack onstage. Martin was very moved at the way Ewan had insisted on finishing the song - getting through to the end of the gig, even though the angina was kicking in. And god knows the guy stood up for stuff, he believed in. So please not a coward or traitor, when it came to stuff that mattered to him. big al whittle |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:34 AM I'm off on a week's holiday tomorrow. I look forward to coming back and finding everybody discussing Ewan as a singer. On the other hand, I used to believe that one day we'd all be living under socialism - so there you go!!!! Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:16 AM I thought I was doing. Obviously not your satisfaction. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST Date: 30 Sep 06 - 10:58 AM weelittle drummer, Sorry - the socialism I mean involves everybody having enough to eat and no more war. Nobody mentioned invading third-world countries Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Jeri Date: 30 Sep 06 - 11:35 AM And the American comes in to translate... sad day, innit? Jim was hoping 'everybody' would discuss Ewan MacColl's singing. Weelittledrummer said he though he had been. Jim non-sequituristically clarified what he meant by 'socialism'. Wee, I thought Jim was talking about posters in general, not you. I thought you'd been talking about the man and singer. The politics are woven through his life, but to focus on one rumor (which some others are doing) is just petty and stupid in light of the contributions MacColl made. And no, I never met him, never saw a gig, and I don't think he's perfect. Finishing a gig in the midst of an angina attack sounds very heroic, but in my view, it's just macho recklessness. Nevertheless, it fits with the larger than life opinion some have of him. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Sep 06 - 12:42 PM yeh that's right Jeri. No I never confused Blair with socialism. My mother used to say - the thing about Christianity - its never been tried. I suspect someone could say the same about socialism. as you get older, you do tend to think - theres probably a reason nobody's tried it. Re the angina - I don't think it was macho, he was a nice guy, not without his faults I'm sure. But he probably just felt that it mattered what he was doing. And he was used to soldiering on, as most players are when they don't feel well, so he that's what he did. Those long ballads he used to do. they're longer than any speech in shakespeare - they demanded committment from him - I suppose that;'s why he felt entitled to ask for that from the audience. al |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:24 PM 'My mother used to say - the thing about Christianity - its never been tried.' Ghandi said the same about western civilisation Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Willie-O Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:39 PM I think anyone who has not done so should take a minute to read the whole article that apparently sourced the information on E.MacColl's wartime record. It is quite badly written both from a standpoint of grammar, and knowledge of subject matter, as to be full of chuckles. To wit, starting with the opening zinger:
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Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Tim theTwangler Date: 01 Oct 06 - 06:37 AM hi this MaColl bloke was he a folk singer then? The name rings a bell somewhere. It woud be very unusual for a Scott to be something like a barrack room lawyer wouldnt it? I never yet met a scot who was well educated,witty,inteligent,opinionated or bolshy. lol. On a serious note is he the one who sort of decided to dictate who could play or sing what sort of songs in folk clubs? Is all before my time but does appear to be all a bit tinged with the middle class 'fifties wat of life you know rich man in his castle ,poor man at his gate. He made the jocks all ginger and taught them how to hate. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST,thurg Date: 01 Oct 06 - 02:28 PM A couple of people suggested changing the scurrilous title of this thread but it hasn't been done - any comment from the moderators? |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: The Sandman Date: 01 Oct 06 - 02:50 PM Ewan maccoll ,was neither coward or traitor,neither was he an embarassment, apart from to Bob. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST,erictheorange Date: 02 Oct 06 - 03:12 AM >>GUEST,thurg >>Date: 01 Oct 06 - 02:28 PM >> >>A couple of people suggested changing the scurrilous >>title of this thread but it hasn't been done - any >>comment from the moderators? While not wanting to stir things up I have to say that I think most in my grandparents' generation would have assigned one of the two descriptions in the post title to a deserter. Certainly members of my own family, who between them served in most of the notable battles fought by British forces, occasionaly expressed similar sentiments about deserters, while being generally understanding of those who chose Concientious Objection. While you personally may not like the descriptions, with what information we have available about MacColl's desertion I'm sure there are many that would think them appropriate. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 02 Oct 06 - 03:28 AM Yes and in the middle ages, he would have been a fiend and heretic. But this is now! |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST,thurg Date: 02 Oct 06 - 09:51 AM Date: 02 Oct 06 - 03:12 AM "While not wanting to stir things up I have to say that I think most in my grandparents' generation would have assigned one of the two descriptions in the post title to a deserter. SNIP While you personally may not like the descriptions, with what information we have available about MacColl's desertion I'm sure there are many that would think them appropriate." If those of your grandparents' generation would have passed such harsh judgement on a case that they know little or nothing about, that's one thing; perhaps their own hard experiences gave them some moral right to jump to conclusions, but that's them and their experiences, it's not ours. Furthermore, passing those kinds of knee-jerk judgements in the privacy of one's home is one thing; would they have been so quick to blazen them around the world? As for that, my own father fought in WWII and his father in WWI, and I never heard the words "coward", "traitor" or "deserter" uttered in our home (in judgement of any common soldiers), but I did on a number of occasions hear sympathy expressed for those accused of various types of aberrant behaviour under war conditions. I have no opinion about MacColl one way or the other, but it's quite clear from the posts that no one on this thread knows much about the circumstances of his desertion, or extended AWOL, therefore I cannot understand why they would feel it appropriate to publicly besmirch his memory with the crass insinuations of the thread's title. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST,thurg Date: 02 Oct 06 - 09:53 AM PS I don't think I'll add to this thread again, because I don't want to be responsible again (after this!) for moving its offensive title to the top of the list. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST,musicman Date: 02 Oct 06 - 10:47 AM horrible scotch coward! My granpa died so that the likes of this womanising scum could live the life of riley on royalties from songs stolen from poor illiterate tinkers & sailors. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: InOBU Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:25 AM Musicman, I find the term poor illiterate tinkers rather, well, not a good discription of Pavees or Romanichals... Frankly, it is the Gyzhen (Georgios ) who spend all this breath tring to toss horse manure on folks too intelligent to play cannon fodder ... look, yer man was a great singer, great friend to the Travelling man, and toss all the crap ye'd like to toss, I'd like to see you measure up to the man... good bloody luck mate. Arrack sa gyzhen, praleh, stay out of the army... Cheers lor |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST,StevieGordon Date: 03 Oct 06 - 02:53 AM I dont know about traitor but the guy was a coward because if he wasnt he would have refused to fight and taken his punishment like a man not run off and hid like a little child. Surely somebody who runs off rather than stand up and face the consequences of their actions is a definition of a coward? For all of you defending him i think you are letting your admiration for ewan maccoll the musician to cloud your judgment on the actions of ewan maccoll the man. I am a big fan of his music and i will always regard the musician in him as a true great just as i will always regard the man himself as a disgrace and a coward. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Don Firth Date: 03 Oct 06 - 10:08 AM This whole thread ought to be in the BS section, because that's pretty much what it amounts to. I can't see a helluva lot of difference between what Ewan MacColl allegedly did and what thousands of young Americans did during the Vietnam war. Not wanting to participate in a war they didn't believe in—and feeling that they shouldn't have to go to prison for follow their convictions if there was another way—they took off for Canada. You can't say they didn't pay for following their consciences because they had to give up the lives they had, leave their friends, family, and jobs, move to a foreign country (albeit not all that foreign), and try to establish themselves there; not necessarily an easy thing to do. Sometimes that can take more sheer guts that just submissively following the herd. As I said above, the fact that MacColl was not prosecuted could very well mean that there is more here than meets the eye. Nobody seems to know what the whole story is, but ignorance doesn't keep a lot of people from mouthing off anyway. Don Firth |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Greg B Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:58 AM Don, I believe most people do see a lot of circumstantial and moral difference between Vietnam-era draft resistance and the desertion by a soldier from the Allied cause during World War 2. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Ringer Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:14 PM I intend no comment on Ewan MacColl, his actions, history, politics or music, but was delighted to discover, in a thread about someone's (alleged) desertion from the army in wartime, weelittledrummer's contribution (30 Sep 06 - 12:42 PM): "...he was used to soldiering on." Priceless! |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 03 Oct 06 - 12:41 PM one of those weeks. I can't say anything right on mudcat. try helping some bugger pitch a song on - and see what happened on that thread. i still don't think Ewan was a traitor or a coward. Just need Ard to come on and call me a bufoon again, and it'll be a hat trick. I'll put a dust cover over the computer for a year or two. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Don Firth Date: 03 Oct 06 - 01:37 PM Granted, GregB. There was indeed a great deal of difference in the moral quality of the two wars. But there were Conscientious Objectors in World War II, and although there were those who considered them to be cowards, the military recognized them, and if they were drafted at all, accommodation was made for their convictions, like assigning them to non-combatant duties such as being clerks or medics. And there were a lot of men classified as 1-A (first on the list to be inducted) who were not drafted because they were in essential industries, the sole support of their families, or otherwise deemed needed elsewhere. These men often took a lot of uncalled-for flak ("You're young and fit! Why aren't you in the Army!?"). I knew a few C. O.s during the Vietnam era and, although there was a great deal more sympathy for a young man not wanting to be yanked out of school or his job and stuffed into a uniform than there was World War II, to the best of my knowledge, during the Vietnam war, no such accommodations were made. If a person refuses to be put into a position in which they may have to kill other people, that does not mean that they are cowards. It often takes a lot of courage, especially during what practically everyone agrees is a "just war," to say, "No, I won't do this!" Automatically assuming that they are "cowards" or "traitors" is the knee-jerk reaction of a lot of folks who don't necessarily think very deeply. I met Ewan MacColl at a folk festival back in 1960 and I admire him greatly as a singer and as the source of several fine, much requested songs that I sing. And a good friend of mine who was interested in folk music, but hadn't considered singing himself, changed his mind when he saw MacColl at the aforementioned festival and realized that even if he didn't play a guitar or banjo, he could go ahead and sing anyway. He quickly became one of the better folk singers in the Pacific Northwest, and eventually did take up the banjo. MacColl inspired a lot of people that way. However, my admiration for someone as a singer does not blind me to that person's faults. I've learned a lot of songs from people whom I thought were real rotters, but the songs are good. But beyond MacColl's activities as a singer and a social activist (and I don't care if that isn't his real name; lots of performers use stage names), I don't know much about him or his background, other than that he accumulated a lot of great songs and made them available to anyone who wanted to sing them. My main point is that the hyperacidity of some of the comments about MacColl in this thread indicates to me that the person who started this thread, and those who seem to be getting great joy out of piling on, have some gripe against MacColl beyond what he may or may not have done during World War II. Other than allegations and accusations, I haven't seen anything very definite. And I repeat: if what he is accused of is true, and without extenuating circumstances, then why was he not prosecuted? Don Firth |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 03 Oct 06 - 02:17 PM I think its 'smack an old folksinger' week. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 03 Oct 06 - 02:45 PM I believe that "...those who seem to get great joy out of piling on ...etc." do so, basically, because they perceive that MacColl was anti-rock music. Ewan made the big 'mistake' of being indifferent to (or possibly hostile to) commercial rock music just when it was beginning to swamp our popular culture - and some people have never forgiven him for it. MacColl pushed the idea of performing traditional, or traditionally inspired, music in folk clubs at a time when some were hoping for an 'anything goes' policy in such clubs. Some of these people were just anti-intellectuals who didn't want folk clubs to be any more taxing than the latest pop hit, but others saw folk clubs as a convenient platform for launching their own careers as rock musicians. When the latter received a poor reception in the clubs (or were, perhaps, unsuccessful in achieving their aspirations) they had a tendency to blame the person who they saw as the most influential artist of the post-war Revival. I have advanced this hypothesis before but, revealingly, have usually been met by a deafening silence. Finally, I should like to point out that I have no quarrel with people who didn't find MacColl's work to their taste or who may have disliked his politics or disagreed with his views on folk music - you are entitled to your opinions. I suspect, though, that trolls like 'Toxic Bob', who started this thread, would have had no interest whatsoever in MacColl's war record if he had played an electric guitar and had enthusiastically welcomed would-be rockers into folk clubs! |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Greg B Date: 03 Oct 06 - 03:40 PM Don, I'm aware that there were COs in WW2, and I have to say that I admire the tenacity of holding on to such an ideal when Fritz has just slipped a blockbuster down your mum's chimbly pot. I just don't believe that our old pal Ewan was one of those. I think that he was a CO, where CO stands for 'Cantankerous Objector.' If you review his body of political work, what you see is someone who has a serious problem with authority (unless it was his) and who is suspicious of government in all of its forms, and who finds hierarchical systems (of which he wasn't in charge) distasteful. He also was one of those who was a bit of an absolutist, the sort that was given to paint in rather broad strokes. It would not surprise me that, as a younger man, he might have persuaded himself that he could 'never support a government which...' even in the matter of the common defense. A friend of mine, really a fine Republican fellow, was none the less given a general discharge from the US Army in the post-Vietnam era because he had a 'personality unsuited to military service.' Meaning he essentially just couldn't get the particulars of soldiering right, to the point where having him around was more of a pain in the arse than discharging him. He was just unable to conform. It was a rather protracted AWOL which precipitated that final outcome. So it may have been with Jimmy Miller. One other thought comes to mind; it's clear that Jimmy Miller re-invented himself as Ewan MacColl. How do we know that this one isn't a case of 'I wasn't fired, I quit!' This was certainly an individual who didn't like being told what to do and when to do it, or for other people to be in charge of his life and fate. And he cultivated a bit of an anti-establishment image. Perhaps this was part of it. This would explain why he wasn't prosecuted (or perhaps he was and just didn't discuss it) for desertion. It may have been just a long AWOL which was the culmination of a series of events which caused the British Army to believe that keeping Jimmy Miller around would be a special favor to Adolf. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: M.Ted Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:56 AM Let's not forget that the Communist Party of that time was totally controlled by Moscow, and that members were expected to tow the Party line--it would not have been unreasonable for a commanding officer to be concerned that Jimmy Miller, or any other Communist organizer, might be carrying out orders from Stalin. It certainly happened. It also happened that Communist organizers were recruited and used by Allied Intelligence to avert strikes in industries involved in defense , and to generally keep labor in line. Also to keep tabs on other Communists. MacColl's seeming desertion in wartime, with no apparent consequences, is unusual, in the very least. The fact that he seems to have disappeared, then re-appeared with a new name that suggested a past very different than his true background adds even more zest to the tale. If he'd been an American entertainer, our British counterparts would likely be outraged by any suggestion that it was improper to ask questions about the distant past--and they'd be right-- |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Snuffy Date: 04 Oct 06 - 08:42 AM It appears that nobody actually knows what he did after 1940 - he seems to have disappeared without trace for how many years - 5, 10, 12? We know that he was reported as AWOL but this could be deliberate misinformation put out by the authorities. Some possibilities include
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Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST,kuksky Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:20 AM The traitor went to live in a luxury moscow apatment, paid for by his friend stalin. my own grandfather was his butler during those years. he told me that he had never before worked for such a nasty, greedy, hateful man in his life. whem he went back to england he owed my grandad 3 years back pay. he also stole an old song from him "dirty old town" which gramps had written about moscow years before. my grandad swore that if he ever got hold of the man he would kill him. miller got to hear about this and shat his cowardly ass and changed his name to a scotch sounding one. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Folkiedave Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:39 AM but others saw folk clubs as a convenient platform for launching their own careers as rock musicians. Evidence? As far as the UK is concerned, name two. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:10 AM This thred has been corrupted by the influence of the trousers and people not showing any respect for evidence. We should all stop posting. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Dave Wynn Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:15 PM One shouldn't ask people to stop posting because one doesn't like the direction a thread takes. Not cricket. My worthless 2pennworth is that his daughter Kirsty had the talent in the family. She was innovative,amazing vocal range and dynamics. Mr Miller was not a good performer (IMO) but could write good songs by empathising with the various work and social communities. Something he didn't want people to do, as his ethos was sing only the songs from your region and culture. Spot the Dog |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Les in Chorlton Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:44 PM Yes you are probably right Spot. Some threads seem to have a life history which is almost predictable. Person raises point, interesting posts follow, spelling mistake leads to irrelevant corrections, famous people are slagged off, defenses are given. Much irrelevance is posted, others join in who do not always read earlier posts, the same arguments offered earlier are put up as new. More slagging off and defense, god why am I bothering? |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Don Firth Date: 04 Oct 06 - 01:36 PM Do I believe anything GUEST,kuksky wrote above? Oh, sure! And I own 3,000 square miles of swampland, so what do I know. . . . (Some people try to attain Enlightenment. Others have mastered the Art of Attaining Total Despicability. 'Tis well GUEST,klutzky should hide behind a cloak of anonymity. Gutless libelous twit!!) How about this as an alternative: MacColl/Miller was working for British Intelligence during the time in question and he and the few who knew of his activities were sworn to lifelong secrecy. Don Firth |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Wolfgang Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:12 PM We don't know what has happened as many have said. That's the end of that line of discussion. But lets assume for the sake of the argument that he actually was either a coward or a traitor would that change for me what I like about his music and his many contributions to folk music. I'm one of those persons who (mostly) can separate different actions of a person. It would not change a bit for me my admiration for his musical contributions. There are limits to that, of course. If a mass murderer, say Hitler, would have written a beautiful song I still could admire in a technical way his artful choice of words and a fine tune, but the song would be dead for me for I could never hear or sing it without the ugly associations. But we are not talking mass murderer here we are talking at worst traitor or coward and even that seems unlikely to me, much less likely for instance than M.Ted's idea. Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Greg B Date: 05 Oct 06 - 01:15 PM I got it. It was all an act. He was a Tory infiltrator. Nobody knew, but he dined with Maggie Thatcher on the second Thursday of each month! |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST Date: 10 Oct 06 - 07:35 AM Missed most of this – have been away for a week; sory to re-open an old thread. I've heard MacColl accused of many things but now think I've heard it all. He now appears to be answerable for the Holocaust – pity he wasn't born a few years earlier so we could have got him for sinking the Lusitania as well. If WW2 had been an anti-Fascist war it would have started three years earlier when a Fascist general overthrew a legally elected government in Spain, and in the process allowing the Luftwaffe to practice its bombing skills on the civilian populations of Madrid and Guernica. Not only did the 'anti-Fascist' allies look the other way, but they rewarded those who went to Spain to fight with police records and, as in my father's case, honourable mentions on blacklists which prevented them from obtaining work in their home towns when they returned. Anybody claiming to know anything about the war would be aware that the invasion of the Soviet Union and the consequent change of policy threw the left into total disarray. Some Communists and Socialists accepted the new line, others rejected it and continued to believe that the original analysis of the war was the correct one; that it was a war for political and economic domination and therefore to be opposed. The secretary of The British Communist Party at the time, Harry Pollitt, resigned over the matter. It is naïve in the extreme to believe in a monolithic left movement which leapt to obedience of a party line – it just wasn't like that. MacColl's attitude was a simple one; worker killing worker was no way for a Socialist to behave, therefore he refused to fight. His stance was made obvious in his parody of the song, 'A Nightingale Sang in Berkley Square'. That lovely night, the night we met there were whistling bombs in the air; No bankers dining at The Ritz, and the refugees slept in Berkley Square, I maybe right, I maybe wrong, but the newspapers say it's no lie, The rich folks' children sailed away and left all the workers' kids to die. I have to say I never hear the terms traitor and coward without thinking of white feathers and firing squads; surely humanity at its lowest ebb. As far as I am concerned, decisions concerning the taking of life and the risking of ones own are far too important to be left to flag waving politicians and faceless bureaucrats mouthing patriotism and only too happy to send me and mine to fight without the slightest intention of taking up arms themselves. I have no idea what I would have done in the circumstances; I would like to think I would have had the courage to have said 'No', but you never know till it happens to you, do you? Somebody asked, 'what would have happened if everybody had done what MacColl had done?' The answer, of course, is war would have not taken place as there would have been nobody to fight it – a Utopian dream held by many of us on the left (though there was the Russian example in WW1 of course)! I envy those with such remarkable insight that they feel confident enough to decide what MacColl's motives were sixty odd years after the event and presumably without having discussed the circumstances with him – would that we all had such powerful crystal balls – if you know what I mean! Personally I prefer to judge people by the whole of their actions and not something done over half a century ago which I might or might not disapprove of. Changing the subject a little; I have to confess that my attitude to EFDSS has always been an ambivalent one. While I have always seen the advantage of having an organisation to represent traditional song and music, I have never really been convinced that those occupying Cecil Sharp House are quite what I have in mind. Even so, it came as somewhat of a surprise a few months ago to receive a circular letter from the editor of one of their publications, 'Dance and Song' concerning MacColl. Had it questioned his ability as a singer, or his approach to traditional singing, or his contribution to our understanding of the tradition, I would have welcomed it as an opportunity for debate – but no. 'Did I know MacColl had an MI5 record?' – Well yes, I did as a matter of fact; he wore the fact as one would wear a medal. 'Did I know he'd deserted from the army?' – Yes, I was aware of this too. 'Where did he go after he deserted?' I had to confess ignorance of this one, on the other hand, I really didn't and don't care. If the editor of a publication supposedly concerned with traditional music can find nothing better to do than to arm-wrestle a sixteen year old corpse over a sixty-odd-year-old event that has nothing whatever to do with traditional music, it really doesn't auger well for EFDSS's role in the preservation and dissemination of that music. I have to apologise for the length of some of my postings, I believe it would be unsatisfactory to try to deal with big subjects with flip answers. In the unlikely event of our ever getting down to discussing MacColl as a singer, songwriter, political satirist and activist, teacher, theorist on singing styles and techniques, collector, researcher, writer, editor, poet, playwright, actor, director, theatre company founder and all the other activities he turned his hand to, I'm afraid my postings are quite likely to get longer rather than shorter; though I have come to realise that there are those out there who will move heaven and earth before they will allow such discussions to take place. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: The Sandman Date: 10 Oct 06 - 01:08 PM well done jim, maccoll was a hero, a great songwriter and somebody every one, who loves traditional music, is indebted too.I wish the maccoll bashers, would find something more interesting to do,. these nonentities, remind me of pooter, in the diary of a nobody |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST Date: 10 Oct 06 - 01:38 PM I agree CB. There must be other folk singers who have questionable backgrounds and still alive to defend themselves. Why not open a thread about them? No? Shows you who the real cowards are. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST Date: 10 Oct 06 - 06:41 PM hurrah lets hear it for saint ewan. and let it be known that any that shall question his actions are declared heretics and shall be burnt at the stake for he was our saviour and everything he did was noble and true. if it seems that it wasnt its because we dont know the full story. all his actions were heroic and devoid of self interest and in ww2 he made his stand. he would not fight the capitalists wars so he stood proud and tall. he refused to to fight and damn the consequences. he took his punishment like the hero he was. ermmm then again maybe not how about he didnt run away he was working for the capitalist governments forces as a secret agent under the cover of being a deserter. it was through his colaboration with the capitalist pigs that he demonstrated his objection to their war errrrm no that doesn't work how about he was a bloke. he did some good things. he did some crap things. some people only want to remember the good things and put him on a pedastal and that sticks in the throat of others who think a lot of his success compared to his trad music contemporaries is down to good PR and his BBC contacts and so they feel the need to highlight the crap things he did to balance it out still it seems most of the maccoll fan club are quite ancient so we probably wont have to listen to them raving on for too much longer |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST Date: 11 Oct 06 - 03:37 AM Ho hum Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: The Sandman Date: 11 Oct 06 - 05:14 AM at the age of 55. I,dont consider myself ancient, On a television programme, last night,KITTY HAYES said life began at 70. I made it clear in my earlier posts,that I dont think Ewan was a saint,but he had ten times more talent than 95 percent of the contributors to this thread,jealousy is a bad road to travel down. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: M.Ted Date: 11 Oct 06 - 09:14 PM Mr. Carroll, your loyalty is admirable. However, with due respect, you had better get used to the questions and the debate. MacColl, as they say, belongs to the ages now. The depth, width, and breadth of his influence mean that every aspect of his work and life are fair subjects for discussion and deconstruction. And more--in time, there will be Doctoral Theses. The immortal Mr. Wilde said something to the effect the only thing worse than being talked about was not being talked about. Not much consolation, perhaps, but a wise thought-- |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: GUEST Date: 12 Oct 06 - 02:39 AM M Ted I agree entirely My objection is summed up in your statement "every aspect of his work are fair subjects for discussion and deconstruction". So far I have only heard the rumours and distortions - unless you would like to point me in the direction to where his work as a singer, songwriter, playwright.......... et al has been discussed in any great depth. I have no objection whatever to his war record, his accent, why he sang with his hand over his ear, whether he has two Weetabix for breakfast........ etc discussed as long as that discussion takes place along with his work as an artist. I don't know whether you ever saw the Monty Python, Arthur 'Two-Sheds' Jackson sketch - which, for me, sums up the approach taken to MacColl and his work perfectly. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Folkiedave Date: 12 Oct 06 - 03:39 AM For those who would like to read it.... "Two Sheds" Jackson Sketch here......... |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Betsy Date: 12 Oct 06 - 03:54 AM The words in the provocative title thread is not warranted or proven, if they were-the British Army would have dispensed their usual abrupt summary justice. They were not exactly known for their understanding-manner especially in wartime. There must be more to this matter for McColl to have avoided a firing squad or execution. There is a possibility if his Communist leanings and connections were as strong as have been suggested , that , someone in the Establishment could have pulled strings to "save" him. This self-same establishment which was generally made up of Oxford / Cambridge fine gentlenmen , who were, in turn, riddled with Fascist and Communist cliques. Dangerous and intriguing times certainly. I'm sure there was a time in the 50's/60's that all beatniks / folkies were thought of as "Commies".Will we ever know ? |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Oct 06 - 05:39 AM one thing is certain. it is this belief that those who feel themselves possessed of analytical and critical faculties - and feel this confers upon them the right to abuse the creative individuals of the folk club movement - this is what has holed the movement below the waterline. In the past, no doubt MacColl was guilty of this himself - numerous people have attested to it. At that point though, the movement was a mass movement and he felt there was headroom to reorganise and refine his purpose. But the writing has been on the wall for two or three decades now. We need unity within our movement if we are to succeed. We are under threat, under represented and the future does not really look good. I see very few young people interested in fingerstyle guitar accompaniment for example. Think how few really good articles there have been about the players of distinction that our generation produced. How the skill has been relegated and abused as not 'in the tradition'. The chickens are coming home to roost for this bloody silly factionalism. And the slur implicit in this thread title on a great contributor to the folk club movement is just SO typical. |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: M.Ted Date: 12 Oct 06 - 01:45 PM This reminds you of"Two Sheds" Jackson? Then, to paraphrase another misunderstood literary light, "Abandon hope, all ye who enter here"-- A small point, Mr. Carroll, you misquoted me- I didn't say: "every aspect of his work are fair subjects for discussion and deconstruction", I said "every aspect of his work and life are fair subjects for discussion and deconstruction."--you made a small, but significant omission, and it miscontrues my meaning. At any rate, you can't set the terms for the discussion, even when it seems to be reasonable to focus on his work as an artist. I Betsy--I think that the ambivalence of your post really embodies what it is all about--on one hand, we have a desire to cut through the cavilling and innuendo and bring the spotlight back on to the work of an important figure, and yet, in defending, we are forced to confront inconsistancies and ommisions that we ourselves can't accept. And, WeeLittleDrummer-why did the simple act of playing folk music, the most abundant music in the galaxy, become an organized and orchestrated "movement"? MacColl, and Allan Lomax, who, in many ways, was his American counterpart, imposed their own personal, political and social agendas into the practice of playing, collecting, and even creating "folk" music. Now that they are gone, it's time to look at where the "movement" has been, and why it was there-- Wwhat should we go back to, and what should we leave behind? Is fingerstyle guitar accompaniment really tied irrevocably to "the music of the common people"? How closely does the Sharpe/Child et al canon of folk ballad really correspond to the "music of the common people"--and how real are those "folk roots", anyway? |
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 Oct 06 - 03:08 PM Movement is exciting and implies life and hope. Stasis, lifelessness, moulding ,mouldy, decaying, dessicated, moribund - a lot of people would be happier with folk music in that state. Particularly - the curators, the guardians of the museums and tradition.(dare I leave out 116th verse? read one thread recently) But give me a living artform with sentient beings anyday. Something which inspires and expresses (think of it as breathing in and out) - and that I'm afraid requires idealism, effort and sacrifice. Its the human condition you are at war with. For nothing of value was ever achieved without those things. Movement! |
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