Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead (29 Dec 2006)

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: number 6
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:44 AM

Tom ... And that's is why the execution of Saddam doesn't make the world a better place to live. His execution will in all probability just give birth to a few more despots.

biLL

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:47 AM

Ps.
I'm sorry for upesetting some people.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:50 AM

I can neither mourn nor exult .....but the phrase that popped into my head was:

"Even as Ye sow, so shall Ye reap."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Cruz
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:10 PM

Good point Chris B

"The whole thing gave Saddam an air of dignity that he never possessed or deserved in life."


I would have to agree with the executioners wearing masks was cowardly. The judges and lawyers who risked their life did not hide behind masks.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:14 PM

And we did get pictures. I was physically ill. What a farcial sham. Postcards will be next.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:37 PM

Ah, that we should all live by the poet's creed. It's amazing how you can take some mediocre lyrics and add some well written and performed music and they don't sound half bad. Or you can take great lyrics and dress up some ordinary music and that doesn't sound half bad either. Well, Donne's words make for fine poetry and it expresses a fine and noble "general" sentiment with which most of us (myself included) concur.

However, if you shoot an intruder who is about to do you or your family harm, how does that diminish you? I'd say that enhances your life just a little, wouldn't you? Remember "Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead"? Which old witch? The Wicked Witch! Well, Ding Dong the Butcher of Baghdad is dead too!

If you define death as an absolute evil, then no one can argue with you, by your definition. But if your honest, you would have to admit that there are necessary evils.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:38 PM

Many people I have met do not really understand the meaning of forgive. It does NOT mean that you condone what the bastard did, it only means that you will not allow them to influence the rest of your life. To carry a grudge to the gave only hurts yourself.
Ron, I still don't see what difference it makes to me which way he went. I don't see execution as the best way to deal with these rats. Rudolph Hess lived as a nothing, from Deputy Fuehrer to a nobody who died after a long life, in prison.Saddam died instantly. Who suffered the most?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 12:59 PM

I don't quite agree with your definition of "forgive" kendall. I do agree the you can forgive without condoning the act or behavior. And yes, forgiveness will set the forgiver free but it also sets the forgiven free. I think of Jean Paul Jean in "les Mesirables" and what a picture of grace that it gives us. If the one who obtains mercy, that is to say, forgivence, learns the same, then the moral mission of forgivence is complete. If he doesn't learn, he is still free. Did Barabbas go right?

I'm reminded of the condemned man who stood before his judge and pleaded for mercy. The judge said "You don't deserve mercy!" to which the condemned man answered "Sir, if I deserved it, it would not be mercy."

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:01 PM

Tom, there are few (if any) Indians being tortured in the US at this moment. For one thing, they have too much casino money....

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:14 PM

If someone does me dirt and moves on,then I forgive him/her, he/she neither knows or cares. It's about me, not them. I can choose to stew in my own resentment but it won't do either of us any good.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: alanabit
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:31 PM

You are completely right Kendall. I like the Bhuddist attitude, which is that mean and spiteful treatment of others can only damage yourself. I get angry for sure about bastards like Saddam and Pinochet. I can also see them for the pathetic worms, which they are. The worst thing that could happen to me, is that I could become like them. That is one reason I will never condone pulling a helpless person out of a cell and putting them to death.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Genie (Wha hoppen ma cookie?)
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:38 PM

Shimrod took the words out of my mouth: "Unfortunately, I suspect that Saddam's death has very little to do with justice (although I believe that he richly deserved to die).   I think that he was swiftly dispatched because he knew too much and because he was a puppet of external forces who had outlived his usefulness."

There have been reports that Saddam was offering to spill the beans on his connections to GHW Bush et al.   Can't have that, can we?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 01:45 PM

This is off topic but since it was mentioned:

" 'A National Disgrace'
Half a millennium after Columbus misnamed them, American Indians are the poorest people in the United States.

The country's 2.1 million Indians, about 400,000 of whom live on reservations, have the highest rates of poverty, unemployment and disease of any ethnic group in America. That might surprise Americans who have consumed countless cheery feature stories about Indians making big bucks on casino gambling. Some tribes -- like the Mashantucket Pequots of Connecticut, who own Foxwoods, the country's largest casino -- have indeed gotten very rich. But less than a quarter of America's 557 Indian tribes own casinos, and only 48 tribes earn more than $10 million a year on gaming. Far more typical than Foxwoods is Prairie Wind, the casino on the Pine Ridge reservation -- a gambling hall made of three trailers, located far from any urban market, earning barely $1 million a year for the Oglala Sioux."

http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/indian.htm


-snip-
Although this was Washington Post article was written in Feb 1997, I doubt if things has changed that much in 10 years...

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:06 PM

In the UK the news coverage on the execution has included somewhere at least in each report that saddam was supplied weapons by the West and reports have also been clear to point out he did not have wmds, he did not have anything to do with 9/11, he did not have connection with al quaedi (?). The reports have not underplayed the attrocities he was connected to but neither have they sugar coated the truth.

I agree with the poster who remarked on the dignity he showed, and the reference to the 'mini cab' drivers would normally have raised a chuckle. Very astute.

One side effect of todays debacle will be to further lower the worlds opinion of the US. If that is possible.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:28 PM

JennyO understood the reference (thank you); I would have thought any reasonably educated person would have.

As for who I think I am - I think I'm just one person with one opinion. Oh, and one not afraid to have my name associated with the words I speak, "Guest".

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:29 PM

It makes no difference if we feel that Saddam's death "diminishes me". Sorry, John Donne doesn't fit here.

What matters is if the Shiite government now feels it is freer to make concessions to Sunnis--like more meaningful action in purging Shiite militias from the police---an absolutely essential step in ending violence in Iraq.

Maybe the government will feel freer to to do this, maybe not. But clearly the danger of any coup to re-install Saddam is now gone. So the government should in fact do it. I would think that even Sadr's people should now feel less threatened than before.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Amos
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:34 PM

Azizi:

There was a panel from different tribes formed some time ago top meet and discuss some common issues, and the panel members were representative of all the major tribal groups. Some WASP wanted them to speak to the question of what they preferred to be called. Every single one said they preferred to be called by their tribal names (Hopis, Cherokee, etc.) and if that were not known, to be called "Indians" which is how they refer to their own when the tribe is not known. Every single one said the last thing they wanted ot be called was indigenous.

To wrap up the discussion, one of the elders said, "Let us just be grateful that Columbus did not think he had arrived at the Virgin Islands."

A

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 02:55 PM

Thanks, Amos. That made me smile and I needed that.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:00 PM

I was talking about America's past.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:57 PM

Great post Amos! It may also be pointed out that obviously the US government has done precious little to help the American Indians and will continue to not help the American Indians. And of course, historically (is that one "l" or two Ron?) they sought to annihilate and dispossess them. So it now remains: what are the "have" Indians doing to help their own "have-not" Indians??

"What matters is if the Shiite government now feels it is freer to make concessions to Sunnis--like more meaningful action in purging Shiite militias from the police---an absolutely essential step in ending violence in Iraq." I'm, I'm feeling faint! I,I agree with you Ron! I'd better re-read that. Nope. It's true. I agree with you!

Aside from personal opinion and strong emotions there are certain inevitabilities and eventuations that happen in communities. See my little thread "When Big Things Move...". There will always be people hurt and trampled and rights violated in big complex organisms. "Fearless Leader" may become the focal point of hatred or praise through no fault of her/his own or they may wholely deserve the prevailing popular sentiment but one thing is certain: they are never going to please everyone and the spectrum of that sentiment is from extreem to extreem. A wise leader tries to keep the extreems to a minimum and maximize the center of the "bell". Such is politics.

But the populace can also be manipulated by other entities such as the press and other media, foreign interests, external enemies, etc. It's quite a game. I would guess that 99% of the world's population would like to live a quiet and peacable life. I know I would. Infact, I would call that "table stakes". Some ante. And we're in the game whether we like it or not.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:17 PM

Hey Slag, you can spell "historically" any way you want. Somehow, I think you will anyway.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:20 PM

It's a pittieable/pitiabil/pityabil/sorry person who can only find one way to spell a word.

How the heck are you Ron?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:23 PM

I iz felin grate.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:26 PM

I could point out that those who taught the Americans how to deal with Indians, Africans, and others were English, Spanish, French, German, Dutch...but I won't. There were some awfully good teachers, though.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:31 PM

And Peece--hau r yu?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:43 PM

texting now

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:03 PM

As others have pointed out the majority of NDNs live well below the poverty line. And, anyone who works at their casinos is not making much more than minimum wage; I know, my son-in-law works at Foxwoods.

what are the "have" Indians doing to help their own "have-not" Indians??

Why should the onus be on them anymore than the rest of society to help each other? Should we ask what are Pilgrims doing to help their own? etc.? Lots of NDNs find not much in common with one another just as a white liberal may not find much in common with a white(is there any other kind?) skinhead. Should they be called to task for what they might be doing to "help their own" if "their own" means skin colour or ethnicity? Not, IMO.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:11 PM

On the Shoshone-Bannock Reservation just north of where I live there is a 40% unemployment rate. And white "entrepeneurs" come in and try to take advantage of them because of this -- stuff like putting in highly polluting industries and getting them to waive cleanup (as happened, and the Tribal Business Council reportedly replied "We might be Indians, but we're not dumb Indians!").

I have long failed to understand why some people, of whatever ancestry, feel that they are superior to others because of their religion, skin color, or whatever.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:31 PM

I have no real feelings about the politics of all this. Saddam Hussein was a person who the world can probably do without but he isn't alone in that. Whether he should have died or not, whether he will be a martyr or not, whether there will be reprisals or not, the question remains: What gives us the right to kill another human being?

There are lots of people who possibly 'deserve' death but to quote JRR Tolkein in "Lord of the Rings"
"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be so eager to deal out death in judgement."

I know that I personally do not want the death of ANY other human being on my conscience. For me to condone that death makes me just one little step towards what he was

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: 282RA
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:39 PM

Well, well, well...Saddam is dead.

Yippee. Hooray.

3000 American dead along with hundreds of thousands of Iraqis--and all to execute this cat. I sure hope it was worth to you, America, because it sure didn't seem to me like it was worth the bother.

I don't know about you (and don't care to so don't bother responding) but I don't feel any safer. I don't think the world is really any better off unless Saddam's death can reverse the global warming trend, then I'll rethink my position. I don't think terrorism was dealt a blow at all. I would, however, like to know why Saddam--who had nothing to do with 9-11--is dead and Osama bin-Laden--who masterminded 9-11--is still alive and still free and Bush himself says he really doesn't think much about him anymore.

Really sounds to me like retarded Georgie got the wrong guy once again. Has Bush done ONE thing right since he took office? Really, I would to know just ONE thing he improved as president instead of botched and screwed up. It's pretty fucking sad when you eliminate this ruthless tyrant and somehow manage to make the lives of his former-subjects far worse than they ever were while he ruled.

I wonder, though, did the American military-industrial complex get paid back for all the weapons and gases they gave Saddam to kill people with? Or did he pay it back and so he was now a liabilty? Or did he refuse to pay them back so they wanted to show all the dictators in the world vying for US support that we better get paid back or else?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:41 PM

kat, that was my point! The US Government is all blow and no go where Indians are concerned. If we as a nation "owe" any one group, it's the American Indians. In lieu of our honest, fair-dealing Uncle Sam, how are the successful Indians doing in helping their brothers?

Of course the sole burden shouldn't be on their shoulders---BUT IT IS! So, are they going to prove the US government's actons were right by treating their own the same way? Let's hope not. I voted favorably for Indian Casinos in my state and in my area and I thouhgt, "At last, a way to restore some equity, self-respect and dignity" even though many pitfalls were apparent. It really saddens me when I hear about some small "tribe" of fifteen or twenty people voting to oust other members (read: Family members) for various reasons (such as, they don't want to share the wealth) and then for a per centage sell out the entire operation of the casino to a Nevada firm (another "Family"?) and then do nothing but play "Fat Cat" all the long day. It ain't right. Nor is the impact when you have to spell it out.

This is pretty far afield from the thread topic so just let me say this to any semi-literate who want to debate this: start another thread. Full-Literates welcome too!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Richie
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:08 PM

I think we should have made Saddam live with the Oglala indians in South Dakota.

Richie

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: growler
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:08 PM

Wouldn't it be wonderful, if we could have a proper investigation of the David Kelly affair and the half trues that led to the invasion of Iraq. If it were found that Blair was guilty, would we hang him. I like to think so

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:14 PM

"let me say this to any semi-literate who want to debate this: start another thread. Full-Literates welcome too!"

HEY. My parents were married!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:33 PM

Hang ALL the war criminals!

Peter

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:35 PM

The real pain that Saddam felt was not the hangman's noose. It was arriving at the place where the legendary virgins are and then realizing that he did not have any Viagra with him.

                                           SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: kendall
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 07:10 PM

To fdrag a helpless person from a jail cell and kill him is not too different from what he did. In any case, it's not justice, it's revenge. "Vengence is mine" sayith the Lord.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 07:32 PM

growler - 30 Dec 06 - 06:08 PM

"Wouldn't it be wonderful, if we could have a proper investigation of the David Kelly affair and the half trues that led to the invasion of Iraq. If it were found that Blair was guilty, would we hang him. I like to think so"

Growler - not to point out the obvious, but there have been THREE independent inquiries, one specifically about the death of David Kelly. None of these inquiries has led to any conclusion that you would find acceptable. Now I am sorry, old son but the rules demanded by such inquiries are fairly strict and require some degree of factual evidence before any conclusion and judgement are reached. So far there has been no evidence produced that any "half truths" or lies that were told.

Now Growler, if you dispute this point of mine you damn well come with come with some fact to back up your contentions. I don't think that you will because the weight of fact lies behind my arguement.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Genie (Wha hoppen ma cookie?)
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 07:44 PM

What you said, 282RA!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:08 PM

Ritchie, why should the Ogalala suffer?

Rabbi-Sol: LOL!!

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: The Walrus
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 08:11 PM

Rapaire.
"...I could point out that those who taught the Americans how to deal with Indians, Africans, and others were English, Spanish, French, German, Dutch...but I won't. There were some awfully good teachers, though... "

It isn't the teaching that counts - It's how the former student applies the lessons learned.

W

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: bobad
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 11:22 PM

"the place where the legendary virgins are and then realizing that he did not have any Viagra with him."

That's not paradise Sol, that's the other place.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Richie
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:16 AM

Katlaughing,

Maybe you don't really know the deplorable conditions and dire poverty which the Oglala indians live.

Might as well make Saddam suffer for his sins.

Richie

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: Slag
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:24 AM

Well, duh, bobad!!! Yuk Yuk! Good shot Sol!

re: our teachers, We ARE the Dutch, the Germans, the etc. The English were very adept at placing the Dutch, the Germans, etc. between them and the Indians in the early days of this country. The accepted norm of attitude and sensibilities was quite different than they are today. Enlightenment continues and our 20-20 hindsight just gets better and better with each new trend. We, today are as much a product of our culture as our ancestors were of theirs. Out great grandchildren will tsk, tsk, us from their lofty point of view and wonder how we could ever have thought such thoughts or done such things!

I met Lame Deer, A Chief of the Ogalala in the mid '70s. He was a very charming and learned man. Indeed, why would you inflict Saddam on the Ogalala?

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 12:34 AM

Ritchie, I am well aware of the conditions, having had neighbours from there and going to sweats conducted by one of their well-known healers, as well as been good friends with an Ogalala who started an art school for Ogalala children on the Rosebud. I don't think their conditions mean they should have to have it any worse with that filth (Saddam) living there, too.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: kendall
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 07:11 AM

There are plenty of "brown sandwiches" to go around.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,The Sand Man
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 09:01 AM

The tendecy to forget is seen in many of the replies in this thread.
Saddam was described by former British Prime Minister Ted Heath as a "gentleman", Ted was a frequent visitor to Iraq and believede that Saddam had "been very good for Iraq", and another visitor was Rumsfeld a supporter of Iraq in the war against Iran, Rumsfeld did well for his US masters courting the dictator in his war against the enemy of the US.

Who encouraged the invasion of Iran? Who supplied Saddam with the components for the chemical weapons with which he drenched Iran and the Kurds? and who ensured that the charges he faced in his trial forbade the west`s culpability?.

Perhaps it is fitting that Bush went to bed early in Texas on Friday night, with explicit directions that he was not to be diturbed and leaving a prepared statement on Saddam`s execution.
The west helped create this monster, yet as justice was finally seen to be done, Bush pulled the covers over his head. Meanwhile, Blair is on holiday at a pop star`s luxury beach resort.

There is no doubt that the execution of Saddam marks the end of a dark period of Iraqi history, a dark period of Iraqi history is continuning. Sddam left misery in his wakein Iraq, but the US and the British are continuing to add to this terrible toll, and while Saddam has lost, and paid the ultimate price with his life, his captors certainly have won nothing yet.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 10:08 AM

I dreamed they were about to show the hanging on TV, tuning in at the point of the hyped announcements-- but the control room was screwed up so instead of a picture from Iraq it was a closeup of an opening sharks' mouth coming at me (I was seeing it from Saddam's eyes). Of course, I woke myself up before it got to me!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 11:22 AM

I have given myself a few days to think about it before posting. I am not sure why but I am genuinely upset over Saddam's death and could not care less about Ford's.

He died with a certain dignity when I guess I had hoped for a little snivelling and begging for mercy. At any rate, something is very wrong about this entire affair and I can't yet put my finger on it.

Subject: RE: Obit: Saddam Hussein Dead
From: GUEST,Lily
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 11:31 AM

Sinsull, did you read the sand man`s post, he gets straight to the truth, and there is nothing hidden if anyone cares to look back at America and Britains role in creating a monster.
The United States should hang it`s head in shame and apologise to the Kurds for supplying Sddam Hussein with the nerve gas.