BS: Republican response to Health Reform

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 06:37 PM

But please pdq, where does it say anything about opinion polls in your Constitution, and about a duty to do what they say?

You have elections to decide that kind of thing. In between elections what people tell pollsters can move around all over the place, partly maybe because they know that it doesn't make any difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 08:54 PM

>>What the hell, Sawzaw, as long as you've got yours, screw the rest. Isn't that right mate?<<

If it were just self interest it would be easier to accept. But it is very very unlikely that Sawzaw would be better off with the old status Quo. Most people wouldn't be.

Who is guaranteed of a job with Health Benefits until like DougR they can suck off the government teat which they ironically despise?


Above and beyond that,
The US in not competitive with other countries for skilled labor.

Because of the lack of a Health Care system, it is cheaper to build cars in most every other industrialized country. It is certainly cheaper to have older experienced workers.

Sawzaw is obviously not aware of the spiraling costs.

The 53% of the electorate that voted for Obama is saving people like Sawzaw from their own ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 02:40 PM

"How so, Sawzaw?"

Because typical of your double standard, you say nothing while the Dems diddled around with their own infighting except to blame it on Republicans.

Then when they finally get their shit somewhat together after a year, with bribes, threats and arm twisting, the final bill they rammed through delays things even more an you claim that it is better than nothing. It could have been even better.

Can you say no one has died because of a lack of health care insurance since the Democrats have been hashing out a bill?

If not you are in the clear. If people have died, you are giving Democrats a pass at the expense of the dead people. They did have the majority. There was nothing blocking them except for internal differences of opinion and maybe lobbyists who Obama said were not going to run the government any more.

we will tell the Washington lobbyists that their days of setting the agenda are over. They have not funded this campaign, they won't work in my White House, and they won't drown out the voices of the American people when I'm President.

The Democrats had the ball and they fumbled.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 03:01 PM

Oh, come on, man. You are completely overlooking the dedicated, loud obstructionism being run up against their every move forward. Why so oblivious, Sawz?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 03:04 PM

People have died. People will die. Resources are finite. The Democrats have tried to save people. The Republicans have not.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 03:51 PM

Doug R, I would expect Republicans to react the same way. In fact I believe Democrats need to take a lesson from Republicans on the issue of cloture, or more broadly, how one acts within their caucus. If a Dem feels they have to vote against an issue, on the basis of belief or interaction with their constituents, that is fair enough. I am not talking about forcing elected officials to vote for an issue they don't believe in. What I am talking about is a procedural issue. I can guarantee you that when Cheney was in power, any Repub that voted against invoking cloture to allow an up or down vote on an issue, would have found their office in a bathroom so far in the basement of the Senate Office Building that they would need a mule train to get out. That is part of being a part of a caucus. The Dems need to use the same leverage. I expect Repubs to be against what our President is trying to accomplish. They have stated that is their intent. But Dems who vote against their caucus are literally playing politics on the Republican side. They are entitled to vote up or down on the issue as they see fit. But to subvert the will of the majority on the use of a procedure is to side with the opposition. The Majority Leader should "encourage" them appropriately. May not be nice, but that is how it works.

As to doing it when the Dems are the minority, hell I watched the Cheney gang do it. That is why it is so laughable to see the Repubs acting outraged that reconcilliation was used. We learned it watching your boys do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 04:02 PM

Because typical of your double standard, you say nothing while the Dems diddled around with their own infighting except to blame it on Republicans.

This is a lie, Sawzaw. I've said plenty. But since the majority of Democrats worked hard to get the bill passed, and ALL of the Republicans worked hard to prevent it from being passed, the Republicans clearly bear most of the blame for the deaths of the people who died while it was being hashed out. This is what I have consistently said, and it happens to be the truth. If even just a small handful of Republicans had been willing to vote for the bill, it would have passed a long, long time ago, and many lives would have been saved. ALL of the Republicans are responsible for those deaths, and a very small number of Democrats are responsible for those deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: DougR
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 04:08 PM

Mick: you make my point. Both the Republicans and Democrats us the same strategy to block legislation, or to approve appointees. Do you know how many judges Bush appointed who were blocked by the Democrats from receiving up or down votes? Lots.

If the rules are to apply to the Republicans, as you propose, they should also be applied to the Democrats. That's only fair.

As to controlling a caucus, well, that's up to the party's leadership isn't it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 04:09 PM

I think it should be pointed out for DougR (in case he is not informed about this), that the vast majority of the health care bill was not passed through the process of reconciliation. Most of it was passed by a clear majority of the House and a super majority in the Senate. Only a very, very small portion of it was passed through reconciliation, and that was a separate bill, not the bill that Obama signed into law on Tuesday.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 04:12 PM

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Your post seems to imply that I am applying a double standard, when the point I am making is that there should not be a double standard. What was good enough for your boys should be good enough for our side.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 09:40 PM

Amos: When did this opposition begin? If they could pass the bill recently with even more opposition, why couldn't they have done it way back at the beginning. It would have been even easier then but the Democrats bickered while opposition increased and people died.

How can you blame the delay in passing a bill on the minority?

Here is a list of the 34 democrats that voted against the bill:

Rep. John Adler (N.J.)
Rep. Jason Altmire (Pa.)
Rep. Michael Arcuri (N.Y.)
Rep. John Barrow (Ga.)
Rep. Marion Berry (Ark.)
Rep. Dan Boren (Okla.)
Rep. Rick Boucher (Va.)
Rep. Bobby Bright (Ala.)
Rep. Ben Chandler (Ky.)
Rep. Travis Childers (Miss.)
Rep. Artur Davis (Ala.)
Rep. Lincoln Davis (Tenn.)
Rep. Chet Edwards (Texas)
Rep. Stephanie Herseth Sandlin (S.D.)
Rep. Tim Holden (Pa.)
Rep. Larry Kissell (N.C.)
Rep. Frank Kratovil (Md.)
Rep. Dan Lipinski (Ill.)
Rep. Stephen Lynch (Mass.)
Rep. Jim Marshall (Ga.)
Rep. Jim Matheson (Utah)
Rep. Mike McIntyre (N.C.)
Rep. Mike McMahon (N.Y.)
Rep. Charlie Melancon (La.)
Rep. Walt Minnick (Idaho)
Rep. Glenn Nye (Va.)
Rep. Collin Peterson (Minn.)
Rep. Mike Ross (Ark.)
Rep. Heath Shuler (N.C.)
Rep. Ike Skelton (Mo.)
Rep. Zack Space (Ohio)
Rep. John Tanner (Tenn.)
Rep. Gene Taylor (Miss.)
Rep. Harry Teague (N.M.)

So where is the condemnation of the Democrats that voted against health care reform?

Does the double standard give them a pass as usual?

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 09:59 PM

"This is a lie, Sawzaw. I've said plenty."

You didn't hold them accountable for people dying because they did not have health insurance. I haven't found any criticism of Democrats at all, not that I can see in this thread.

All I see is kudos like "Democrats could look pretty good in the fall."

Yeah, If they can take all the un necessary deaths that happened under their watch and blame them on Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 09:59 PM

Sawzaw,

We, Carol and I, have promised our Democrat, Rep. Mike McIntyre (N.C.) that we would campaign against it the Next time we campaign for Obama or against a Republican. There isn't much more we can do.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 10:08 PM

I've criticized them plenty, Sawzaw, and so have a lot of other people. If you haven't seen it, it's because you have ignored it just so you could make that specious accusation. I've even told you during the last couple of days some of the things I said to my representative.

And beyond what I already told you, I told my Democratic representative that if my husband were to die because of lack of access to health care if the bill didn't pass, I would hold him personally responsible and I would regard him as a murderer.

You really need to either pay attention, or leave off those kinds of incredibly dishonest accusations.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 10:13 PM

However, there's absolutely no reason why all Democrats should be held responsible for what only a small number of them did or didn't do. So a very small number of Democrats get my condemnation for their opposition to health care reform, ALL of the Republicans have earned my condemnation for their opposition to health care reform, and the majority of Democrats get my praise for having supported it.

Among those who get my praise for supporting health care reform, there are several who earned criticism from me for watering it down and not supporting a public option.

Piece of news for you, Sawzaw. Democrats are not a Borg collective. Each of them is either praised or criticized for what they do or don't do. They don't get praised or criticized collectively for what some of them do or don't do.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 11:21 PM

It is possible that some choices or tactics done differently would have hastened the passage, Sawz, I don't know. But I think you are trying to reframe things in a rather desperate effort. The vast majority of the opposition to the health care bill came from the Republican side of the aisle. If you want a replay, go look it up yourself.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 12:01 AM

"If you haven't seen it, it's because you have ignored it just so you could make that specious accusation"

I looked for it in this thread. I could not find it just like I said. Your accusation is specious. All I found was support for Democrats. I didn't see the ones that voted against singled out and demonized.

"The Democrats have tried to save people. The Republicans have not."

Therefore all of "the Democrats" get a pass and all of "the Republicans are to blame for anything wrong.

And again "the Democrats" had a clear majority and they could have passed a bill a lot sooner, a lot easier, back when they had the support of some Republicans and saved lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 12:07 AM

Their response is simple:
Only Communists don't want everybody to get sick and die.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 12:14 AM

You can't use only this thread as an indication of whether or not people have criticized and/or condemned the Democrats who didn't support the reform bills. This thread didn't exist during the discussions when we would have been doing that. This thread was started after the bill passed, and it's really just about Boehner's response to the new law (and what some creative people did with that response). We did our condemning back when we were trying to get the bills passed. Now we are celebrating (and campaigning against Democrats and Republicans who opposed the bill).

So your argument is specious because you're making accusations based on only a small amount of evidence, while ignoring the rest, which is extremely dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: mousethief
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 12:19 AM

"back when they had the support of some Republicans and saved lives."

They never had the support of some Republicans. The Republicans en masse declared from the start that this bill would be Obama's "Waterloo." Not at any time did any of them support the president regarding this bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 06:20 AM

""Because typical of your double standard, you say nothing while the Dems diddled around with their own infighting except to blame it on Republicans.

Then when they finally get their shit somewhat together after a year, with bribes, threats and arm twisting, the final bill they rammed through delays things even more an you claim that it is better than nothing. It could have been even better.

Can you say no one has died because of a lack of health care insurance since the Democrats have been hashing out a bill?""

The Democrats have had a year, against a total stonewall job by republicans, and yes, a few (very few) Democrats, and they have finally managed to ram a largely castrated bill through.

I judge, from those facts, that the opposition is totally responsible for the time it has taken. That opposition did include a few Democrats, but it also included every Republican.

Eight years (and more) of deliberate inaction by Republican Government can only be attributed to Republicans.

So, all in all, the Democrats have been no more than minimally responsible for the deaths they have been seeking desperately to avoid.

The Repubs on the other hand, have sat back and said "FUCK 'EM! LET 'EM DIE, BECAUSE WE WON'T LEND A HELPING HAND IF IT COSTS US ONE RED CENT!

And they are still saying that now.

What the Democrats have achieved, though far from the ideal, is saving lives from day one. Lives that the Repubs have consistently written off as not worth saving. It amazes me that any Republican Senator or Congressman claims any kind of humanity or credibility.

Forty five thousand Americans died for lack of proper healthcare in each and every year of Republican government.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 07:54 AM

Yeah, Don... That is about it... The Repub response has been purdy much like when Bill Clinton was president and thr Repubs held up a spending bill which temporarially shut down the government... It is irresponsible... Heck, if they don't want to participate then they should resign... Their response has left them very vulnerable to some very interesting mid-term ads showing them as being AWOL from their jobs at a time when the nation needed everyone to pull together... I'd love to write some of those ads...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 01:25 PM

In any event, whatever the Republicans are doing seems to be working with the public.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 01:33 PM

What this crop of Republican did was particularly bad because a lot of their ideas are in the bill. They didn't refuse the bill to save money. The Bill is paid for. They could have even strengthened the fiscal responsibility had they cooperated.

They let those people die in hopes of a cheap (in their eyes) political victory over Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 02:14 PM

Riginslinger, I don't think they necessarily are. But time will tell. Personally, I think their methods are backfiring on them (instant karma).

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 07:04 PM

Not every American who votes Republican is the kind of arsehole who represents him/her in Washington.

Those who have the intelligence will be sitting at home, one year into Obama's presidency, and seeing what their representatives are deliberately and cynically doing to prevent him from clearing up the Augean Stable he inherited from George W (I've only one brain cell, and it's at the laundry) Bush, and they will be wondering what exactly is being achieved in their name.

When they realise that they have elected men who will destroy the USA rather than accept a black president, then you might see some changes.

The bottom line is that closing down America inc. to beat Obama, will be at best a Pyrrhic victory.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:14 PM

ANother sterling example of the Republican flase-reality factory hard at work, from "The Progressive"

"IRS AGENTS 'BREATHING DOWN' OUR NECKS:ÊFox News and Republican lawmakers have been pushing a talking point claiming that the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) willÊneed to hire more than 16,500 new agents to enforce theÊuniversal insurance mandates in the Affordable Care Act, and that the agency will impose harsh punishments on those who don't purchase insurance it deems worthy. At least a dozen Republican lawmakers pushed the meme, with Rep. Dave Camp (R-MI) calling it a "dangerous expansion of the IRS's power and reach into the lives of virtually every American." Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) warned Fox News host Sean Hannity that "theÊIRSÊwill be tasked with breathing down the neck of 300 million Americans every month to determine whether we have purchased governmentally acceptable levels of health insurance." Rep. Mark Kirk (R-IL) and others attributed the 16,500 figure to "the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office," but as PolitiFact noted, the figure does not come from the CBO. It comes from a report prepared byÊthe Republican staff of the House Ways and Means Committee, which used rough estimates from the CBO in order to fabricate the 16,500 figure. During a recent congressional hearing, IRS Commissioner Doug Shulman made it clear that these claims are nothing but "misconceptions." When asked whether the IRS would "verify if [Americans] have obtained acceptable health insurance,"ÊShulman flatly said "no," adding that there "are not going to be any discussions about health coverage with an IRS employee." As for claims of draconian enforcement, including jail time, for those who do not buy insurance, as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) noted on her web site, "The bill specifically prohibits the IRS from confiscating taxpayer assets, from using liens or levies, or imposing criminal penalties of any kind -- including jail time -- because of a lack of health care coverage."


A
"

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 11:21 PM

More of the same class of distorted stories:

"CORPORATE WRITEDOWNS: For months, Republicans and their allies like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce have been claiming thatÊhealth care reform would create huge new taxes that would hurt businesses. Since the passage of the Affordable Care Act,ÊAT&T, Caterpillar, John Deere and others have come out with a series of -- seemingly coordinated -- press releases announcing that the new bill will cost them billions of dollars. An association representing 300 large corporations is also urging Congress to change the part of the Act that is responsible for the charge. Republicans and the right-wing media latched onto the news of the writedowns as proof that the bill will lead to the "wholesale destruction of wealth and capital," as a Wall Street Journal editorial put it. This is "the exact opposite of what the president promised if we passed health care,"ÊFox News host Sean Hannity said of the writedowns. But in reality, these writedowns are due to a big cut in corporate welfare. The Medicare Part D legislation -- passed under President Bush -- gives subsidies of about $1,300 per retiree per year to businesses that provide prescription drugs to their retirees. On top of that, it allows companies to deduct the value of the credit from their taxes. The new health care law, however,Êpays for itself, in part, by eliminating waste in the system and puts an end to this "double dipping." Companies will still receive the tax-free subsidy, but they'll no longer be able to take the tax deduction as well. As the Wall Street Journal notes, these charges are "noncash," and the cost of losing this exemption is relatively small. And the relevant change doesn't kick in until 2013. Moreover, is disingenuous for companies to suddenly complain about the charges, considering the change was a part of the draft bill that passed the Senate Finance Committee last year and several business groupsÊcomplained about it in September. Finance Committee aides "were in close talks with employer groups" and it ultimately won approval from many, with the chairman of Business Roundtable saying "it's very closely aligned to [our] principles."

A NEW TAX ON STUDENT LOANS: While its inclusion with the health care bill has often been overlooked, legislation to streamline the student loan system has not escaped its share of right-wing fear mongering. Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-IA) told Radio Iowa that the plan "end[s] up taxing college students" because they'll be forced to pay more borrowing from the government directly than if they couldÊshop around for a loan from private lenders. Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) agreed, claiming that students will spend "$1,700 to $1,800 more during the life of their loan because of this surcharge." But both Grassley and Graham are ignoring the fact that it SAFRA does not change interest rates, meaning that students will pay the same amount as they did before. As PolitiFact notes, the interest rates are set by law and were not changed by SAFRA -- "there is no 'surcharge' in the bill." Grassley and industry lobbyists have also claimed that people employed by private loan companies will lose their jobs "at a time when our country can least afford to lose them." But as Campus Progress notes, "There will be no shortage of work for loan companies under the new reforms," as federal loans will still be serviced by private companies. "In fact, student loan giant Sallie Mae has announced it is in the process of bringing back 3,400 jobs from overseas. These jobs are returning to the U.S., at least in part, so that the company can be eligible for Department of Education contracts to service Direct Loans," Campus Progress adds.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 12:19 AM

CC:

Some someone that comes across this thread is not allowed to form an opinion based on what is posted in this thread?

They are supposed to hunt down everything you have said before making a comment?

Your argument is specious. In this thread you have consistently derided "the Republicans" as being against health care reform and given a pass to "the Democrats" even though 34 of them opposed it like "the Republicans" did.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 12:22 AM

Democrat Joins Calls for Health Care Repeal

At least one of the 34 House Democrats who voted against President Obama's comprehensive health care overhaul is now calling for its repeal, joining a chorus of Republicans intent on making the new set of laws an election issue.

Rep. Mike McIntyre (D-N.C.) said he would be in favor of repealing the entire bill, WECT reports.

"If we had the opportunity to vote on it, I would," McIntyre reportedly said. "But I don't think the votes are there right now. So now (the) question is, it'll have to be addressed by the judicial branch."

McIntyre said he supports the numerous, largely Republican state attorneys general suing the federal government on the grounds that the bill is unconstitutional, according to WECT.

The congressman's comments fly in the face of the Democrats' current efforts, led by Mr. Obama, to convince the American public of the benefits they will see from the new legislation. It highlights the adamant opposition to the reform package that exists in moderate and conservative parts of the country.

In a CBS News poll conducted last week, nearly two in three Americans said they wanted Republicans in Congress to continue to challenge parts of the health care reform bill.....

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:13 AM

Ah. North Carolina. Home of the race-baiting, ignorant, pig-headed Jesse Helms.

McIntyre is a worthy successor.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:46 AM

Some someone that comes across this thread is not allowed to form an opinion based on what is posted in this thread?

They are supposed to hunt down everything you have said before making a comment?

Yes, absolutely. You're not in a position to comment on whether or not I am a hypocrite about Democrats and Republicans if you're not familiar with what I have said about them. To try to do so with incomplete information is dishonest, because you're just making stuff up.


Your argument is specious. In this thread you have consistently derided "the Republicans" as being against health care reform and given a pass to "the Democrats" even though 34 of them opposed it like "the Republicans" did.

You're lying, Sawzaw. You haven't even bothered to read what I've posted in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:50 AM

McIntyre is my representative. As I have said in other threads, he is useless. And he has been a resident of the C Street house (and may still be, although I don't know), and he is a member of The Family. I will be campaigning against him the next time he is in a primary.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 09:35 AM

CC: Was that before or after I brought it up?

CC Mar 25 "the Democrats" could look pretty good in the fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 09:39 AM

CC:

You must track down and read everything I have ever written in every thread before you accuse me of anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 10:09 AM

CC: Was that before or after I brought it up?

I don't understand the question.


CC Mar 25 "the Democrats" could look pretty good in the fall.

That's pretty pathetic if you think you can use it to support your contention that I have been criticizing Republicans. This is the full context of what I said...

the trend has been that the more people learn about the new law and the benefits it offers for them personally, the more they like it. If the trend continues as it has been going, the Democrats could look pretty good in the fall.

Since only Democratic votes and efforts got us this new law, Democrats are the only ones who will get credit for it if people like it. That's just a fact. I know some Republicans are now trying to take credit for the new law, but that just goes to show that they know this law is going to help Democrats in the fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: pdq
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 11:20 AM

"...the more people learn about the new law and the benefits it offers for them personally, the more they like it. ~ CC

That sounds like bribery to some. It does not address the fact that much of the bill is unconstitutional, helps some people at the expense of others, and is going to force jobs overseas in time of 10%+ unemployment.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 11:27 AM

That sounds like bribery to some.

Really? You think there's something illegal or unethical about individuals voting for lawmakers who will look out for their best interests? That sounds like democracy to me.


It does not address the fact that much of the bill is unconstitutional, helps some people at the expense of others, and is going to force jobs overseas in time of 10%+ unemployment.

Perhaps that's because it isn't any of those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:44 PM

"the fact that much of the bill is unconstitutional"

We will see if it is unconstitutional. If the Supreme court says it is than it is.

Otherwise that is just whining and sour grapes.

Sawzaw
I consider McIntyre a Republican (Democrat in name only.). I have told him so via email.

If you would like to consider everything I have said about "The Republicans" to be aimed at "The Republicans and Fake Democrats" I really don't have a problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: DougR
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:50 PM

Personally, I am very willing to give the Democrats full credit for the health care bill. If it fails, they get the credit too, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:57 PM

If it fails, they only get the credit if it fails on its own merits, and not because any Republicans found a way to sabotage it.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 06:45 PM

If the Supreme court says it is than it is.

Dred Scott...

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: DougR
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 07:52 PM

If the Republicans find a way to sabotage it, then it wouldn't have failed.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 01:38 AM

CC show me your criticism of the Democrats that voted no.

"the Republicans find a way to sabotage it" But "the Democrats" including the 34 that voted no, even the one that wants it appealed are heros for getting the bill that 40.7% of Americans favor ad 50.8% oppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:46 AM

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=128314&messages=144&page=1&desc=yes#2877311

By the way, Sawzaw, I am not a Democrat myself. So I don't have any personal sense of identification with either party. So it's quite easy for me to criticize both parties when I don't like what they do.

I'm not the one who is talking about "the Democrats" as if they were a Borg collective, Sawzaw. That's what you're doing. Heroes is your word. I think the Democrats did a shitty job of passing a health care reform bill. But it's the best one we've got, so they get credit for at least doing that much. Republicans have done nothing whatever except try to preserve the status quo. If this new law makes it possible for me and JtS to get health insurance (and I expect that it will), it could save our lives. So those who voted for it (the vast majority of Democrats) will get credit from me for saving our lives.

In most of the polls taken during the time health care reform was being worked on, most of the people were in favor of it most of the time. You're cherry picking and only considering the polls that support your contention that most people don't want health care reform. But if you're going to quote percentages (which you really can't do and be telling the truth), you need to look at all of the polls and use an aggregate of the numbers. Most of the people favored what the Democrats were doing most of time. And a large percentage of the people in the polls that showed a majority of people against, were against because the bill in question didn't offer a public option. When asked about a public option, the majority of those polled consistently said they were in favor, and when asked if they would support the proposed bill if it offered a public option, the majority of people consistently said they would support the bill. So you're just flat out wrong that the majority of people don't support health care reform.

And now, after the bill has become law, a plurality of people have said they are glad it passed. So your 50.8% number (if it is from the poll I am thinking of), don't oppose health care reform, they just want the law to go farther than it does, and they either want single payer not for profit, or they want a public option. When the people who feel that way are removed from that number a minority of people oppose the bill.

There are more people who are glad the law passed than there are people who are not glad the law passed. That's a fact. If the law included a public option, there would be a clear majority of people who would say they supported the new law. When people see in what ways their lives are positively impacted by the new law, the people who made it happen will be rewarded at the polls in future elections. Democrats like my representative, who worked against it, might not fare so well, however, and I'm going to do my part to make sure that happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 09:59 AM

Here's a couple more...


http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123258&messages=1334&page=5&desc=yes#2785164

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 10 Dec 09 - 03:42 AM

And by the way, they are totally against the House bill, because that one includes a robust public option. The reason the Senate dropped the public option is because Senators like Lieberman and Lincoln are completely in the pockets of the insurance industry.


http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=123258&messages=1334&page=3&desc=yes#2792095

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 01:13 PM

I don't disagree that the Democratic leadership has failed in this case.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 01:18 PM

DougR that seems very fair and non-partisan of you.

If I may summarize your position to ensure that I have it straight.

If the Health Reform Law succeeds the Democratic Party should get full credit.
If it fails, then the Democratic Party should get full blame.
It the Republican Party somehow manages to sabotage it, then the Democrats should not be blamed for the Law's failure.

I like that attitude of yours DougR. It reflects a value of personal responsibility. I think that you should be speaking at the Tea Party rallies rather than Sarah Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 11:07 AM

I am still waiting for Bobert to tell us who is "out there screaming for re****ks to kill Oabama".

Now there is person with some serious anger management issues.

It you disagree with Bobert you must be crushed. His uncontrollable elitist ego demands it.

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: DougR
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 02:49 PM

Well, Jack the Sailor, you are partly right.

If ObamaCare is a smashing success the Democrats get full credit for passing it.

If ObamaCare fails, the Democrats get full credit for passing it.

If the Republicans find a way to block it, the Republicans get credit for doing so.

Juan Williams (who cannot be mistaken for a conservative) has an excellent OP ED in today's edition of the Wall Street Journal about the Tea Party, should anyone care to look it up.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Republican response to Health Reform
From: Amos
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 10:53 AM

"...ÒI think the vast majority of Americans know that weÕre trying hard, that I want whatÕs best for the country.Ó

Limbaugh shot back on Friday, ÒI and most Americans do not believe President Obama is trying to do whatÕs best for the country.Ó

And there it was. ObamaÕs language focused on what people Òknow,Ó or should know. He seems to find comfort in the empirical nature of knowledge. ItÕs logical. LimbaughÕs language focused on what he thinks people Òbelieve.Ó Beliefs are a more complicated blend of facts, or lies, and faith. And, they can exist beyond the realm of the rational.

This focus on faith has allowed people like Limbaugh to mislead and manipulate large swaths of the right.

According to another Quinnipiac poll released last week, Republicans were far more likely than Democrats to say that they follow public affairs most of the time. But how? They listen to people like Limbaugh, and theyÕre more likely than others to watch Fox News.

But invectives are not information. For example, a poll released on Wednesday by the Pew Research Center found that most Republicans say that they still donÕt understand how the new health care reform will affect them and their family.

They donÕt know what it means, but they believe itÕs bad. Rush & Co. said so. In the vacuum of confusion and misinformation, they strum their fears and feed their anxiety. And, by worrying, their faith is made perfect."

(NYT Columnist Charles Blow)

---

Charles Blow raises an interesting point. In the middle of this virulent clash of beliefs, viewpoints based on media distorted mythology, and politics based on perverse faith, how do you abstract any kind of real sense of the calculus between politics and reality? How do you estimate the consequences of positions or the merits of policies in a storm of denial and misleading assertions? Especially in those rarer cases where the misleading is cloaked in plausible rhetoric?

Like most people I respect viewpoints from those I trust, and I trust people whose understandings I share; but this is tricky because it can lead you into a blind end of hidden tacit suppositions and overlooked but important data.

For me the solution has been to keep my own counsel foremost and not make agreements too lightly. Not always an easy resolution to keep, though.

A