BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 03:02 PM

Musket, all your arguments are based on weird misplaced beliefs. "Salmond wants all the rules but none of th say" what the he'll does that mean? And where does xenophobia come in? "The Scottish experiment in Utopia planning is based on good will of others". The Scottish people are as hardworking as anyone else and not sitting on their backsides, living off your taxes. We have a sound economy and the old argument that Scotland is too poor and stupid to run itself has beenblown out of the water a long time ago except for those so blind they cannot see. If Cameron and his crew get into Westminster next time, hopefully an independent Scotland will not be part of it. "Scotland's application will be further away" does not make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 05:11 PM

Dr Johnson"The noblest prospect which a Scotchman ever sees, is the high road that leads him to England!"

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 05:37 PM

Shouldn't that be "The low road"?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Van
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 03:47 AM

"Scotland has a sound economy" only if you believe Wee Eck. Share out the national debt and the money the Scottish banks owe and yes vote gives you a bankrupt country.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 04:08 AM

It would appear the immigration vote in Switzerland was just enough to give a mandate for something The EU don't like. So.. Access to free markets, movement of people, etc are at risk for Switzerland.

If Scotland gets independence, it will have to apply to join The EU. Spain's veto apart, there would be a long period where Scotland was similar to Norway, Switzerland etc, subject to EU rules if they want to survive but not able to influence in any way.

Let me repeat. The United Kingdom is not at risk. The United Kingdom will still be a member of Europe, so any new application is an application. If it were at risk, it's inhabitants would be given a referendum on splitting it. It would be far more responsible for the Scottish Yes campaign to factor in reality rather than promising haggis it hasn't even gone out on the moors to catch yet.

Hence my observation that Mr Salmond wishes to be bound by EU in order to exist at all, but seems happy not to be able to influence it. As Switzerland is waking up this morning to find out. (Any application by any new country would need a German vote in favour too. Forget all this being bound by the Bank of England. It's either Euro or get stuffed. Out of interest, I would welcome the Euro in The UK but that's another story.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 04:36 AM

So, Musket, you must be the only person in the UK that knows for sure the position of the RUK and Scotland regarding entry/exit from the EU after independence. Westminster could find out tomorrow if it applied for clarity, only Westminster can, but silence .. just posturing.
Switzerland is an interesting case in point. There are so many bilateral agreements between them and the EU that the Swiss, who are not members, seemeto be able to negotiate their way round almost any supposedly EU restrictions.They have accepted the freedom of movement of people but the recent referendum, closely, came out in favour of restrictions. This was met with "possible" trade sanctions from the EU.
Scotland could stay with OUR pound or peg a new currency to the EURO which has kept its strength agains the Dollar and GBP (and Swiss Franc) or it could even join the EURO which I think will happen eventually, even the rUK will join. Staying with Sterling I think is the pragmatic way forward, for the time being.
Van, you want to take a look at Scotland's economic position by doing a bit of reading away from the mainstream rags who are all opposed to independence. Have a look at Scotland's balance sheet, compare Scotland's GDP ratio to a share of the current debt and that's just for starters .. all this can be found at a touch of the button.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Van
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 06:44 AM

Jim reading Our Willie in the Post doesn't qualify you as an economist

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:03 AM

The UK is a member, as per the treaty of Rome.

The UK isn't going to disappear regardless of the vote. The only uncertainty is whether Scotland would get automatic entry as it is presently part of a member.

Incidentally, Spain did ask, hence promising the veto to prevent a precedent for Catalonia.

I genuinely want the people of Scotland to exercise their opinion. I just can't see how they can whilst a tissue of lies props up the yes vote and you get labelled by being in the no camp.

If Scotland wants the pound, it was made quite clear that therefore Scotland would be subjected to British currency control. Interest rates etc. If it wants the Euro, it will have to be a member of The EU. Cameron is going out of his way to not spell it out as that would be seen a a threat.

Whilst ever silly misty eyed petty nationalism sees reality as a threat, they do the people of Scotland a huge injustice. Independence may have its benefits, but I have yet to see a costed possible advantage put forward.

One Scotland eh? You can't even support football teams without religious lines getting in the way. You get almost as many orange marches as Northern Ireland and you speak of one Scotland.

Defence? Fiscal policy? Salmond has the answers, he just hasn't asked if The UK will do as he asks yet.

Keep banging the rocks together. Petty nationalism is a thing of the past. But there again.........

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:31 AM

Whst would the British army do without the 5 Scots battalions, as cannon fodder?

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:41 AM

But Davie Cameron says he loves us!.....Says even the Tories love us!

How much did they love us when we were given the "billet doux" of the Poll Tax, or when our industries were being decimated in favour of "financial services"?

Let them kiss oor erses fur a chinge!!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Van
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:52 AM

Giok,
Surely after a yes vote it would be the English army and you could fight against them.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:58 AM

Musket, this is not just a nationalist issue. I am not a nationalist, and there are many groups wanting independence who are not nationalist .. the Greens, Labour for Independence, Women for Independence, Scottish Socialist Party .. The NO campaign focusses on Get Alex Salmon, listen to Alistair Darling who cannot talk for two minutes without mentioning Salmon and the SNP about three times in every sentence. They have no argument argument against independence and continually project fear and doubt, nothing positive.
Van, you've just admitted reading the Sunday Post .... shame on you!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Giok
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 08:14 AM

EPISTLE TO ALISTAIR DARLING

Wee, sleekit, glowerin', troublous Darling,
O what a panic's set thee snarling!
Thy bare-faced claims we can't use sterling
Dinna convince.
The imprecations thou keep'st hurling
Are full o' mince.

I ken wherefore thou art sae crabbit,
Thy fizzog like a startled rabbit,
Thy point of view sae parched and scabbit,
Thine aspect grim.
Faith! Thou maun earn a handsome habit
Wi' ermine trim.

I doubt na but thy denigration
O' Scotia's self-determination
Is based on wild imagination,
Or pauchlin' lies!
Such mischief bears its indication
In blinkin' eyes.

Thy Project Fear has fallen tae ruin!
The Cybernats gave it a doin',
Noo all deride its idle spewin'
O' stories strange,
And bold September's wind's ensuin':
The wind o' change!

Thou saw Carmichael, bare and wast,
And moothy Sarwar, speakin' fast,
And Michael Moore, in ancient past,
For mercy plead,
By Nicola's scything wit outclassed
And left for deid.

O Grand Panjandrum o' Finance,
Wha reads White Papers at a glance,
Whose style o' banking governance
Was fair found wantin',
It's nae surprise we look askance
At a' thy rantin'!

Gowk, thou maun learn the lesson plain:
Thy negativity is vain,
Awa' back hame and think again,
Thy scheme's agley.
An' nought remains but grief and pain
On voting day!

How drab thy lot, compared wi' me!
Westminster only toucheth thee,
And, as I backward cast my e'e,
It turns tae dust,
While forward, though I canna see,
I hope and true!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 08:42 AM

Giok, excellent! I assume the last word was a typo for "trust".

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 08:50 AM

Nice one Jock!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 08:53 AM

My sis (hospital doc in Dundee) has just sent an e mail saying she's very worried about her pension should Scotland become independent, as she retires in 2 yrs' time, and has worked her whole medical career in Scotland. She says many of the consultants are looking to put their pensions in offshore accounts, as there are doubts as to whether pensions could be afforded to be paid by the new 'state'. In her opinion it would be disastrous for Scotland. She says Salmond is a tricky guy and a lot of what he promises just couldn't happen. She's a feisty lass, but I've never known her as angry as this!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,G
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 10:59 AM

The true facts of Scottish Independence!

Yes Jim I assume it is trust too. The ditty was composed by WILLIAM DUGUID

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 11:52 AM

Eliza, don't just listen to the scaremongers and doom and gloom merchants. Douglas Frazer is an independent economist and writes in his BBC blog ..

An independent Scotland could delay the rise in the state pension age by 12 years, according to economic analysis.
It could benefit from a lower cost of providing pensions as Scots, on average, have shorter lives than the rest of the UK (rUK).
The data suggests those receiving private pensions in Scotland could be helped by higher yields on their government bond investments.

This man has no axe to grind and is totally independent and has nothing to do with Alex Salmond. Again don't forget that after independence Slamond may not be in government.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Musket
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 12:07 PM

The NHS pension scheme in England is unfunded. I always assumed the Scottish one was too? My better half had to get her house years in Edinburgh transferred when she moved, but I assumed it was an accountancy move, not a monetary transfer.

It could be an issue. Already, Jersey, Isle of Man.. They have trouble recruiting doctors as the NHS pension situation is complicated, and with the rules altering it will be even harder to sort out.

Although The NHS pension scheme is not as attractive as it was, it still beats other schemes open to higher paid NHS staff. Unless Scotland NHS have a pension pot, it is another huge drain on the coffers. (The CHD, cancer, substance misuse is another huge disproportional drain on NHS Scotland too, but I digress.)

Jim. You say it isn't a nationalist issue? What else can an attempt to form an independent nation be but nationalist? Watch out that by sitting with the men in bowler hats that they don't thank you for delivering their agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 12:21 PM

My sis also said in her fuming email that they're finding it nigh on impossible to recruit any docs or consultants at Ninewells Dundee until this situation is clarified. Scotland seems to be a no-no for filling vacant hospital posts at present.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 12:38 PM

You are correct Jim, this is not simply a "nationalist" issue.
My son, who works for the "Yes" campaign, says that there are large numbers of traditional Labour voter and some Labour Party members, who intend to vote for independence.

Of course N.A.A.N.T.A.....would like people to think that only SNP voters want independence. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: Jim McLean
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 01:19 PM

It's called self determination, Musket, hence Scots living outside can't vote but Englishmen/women, Chinese, Welsh .... I could go one, all will be able to vote.
And Eliza, if you're happy with the way things are, then vote no. I see the NHS in rUK is gradually being sold off

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 01:20 PM

From one of Scotland's greatest socialists, and a special hero of mine.

The rose of all the world is not for me.

I want for my part

Only the little white rose of Scotland

That smells sharp and sweet—and breaks the heart.

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 04:19 PM

On a lighter note, I've just bought a special nightie for my visit to my sis in August. I call it my Scottish Nightie. It's long and made of thick winceyette. Should keep me warm. Sis is disgusted; she says I've become soft and a wimp from too long down here, and that August is warm up there. Ha ha, I doubt it!

Subject: RE: BS: 25 reasons to leave Scotland
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:59 PM

"She said its quite unimaginable, what people are having to live through. Apparently its like driving through the sea.

totally unforgiveable. London governance at its grossest."

That's rich! London is to blame for the worst weather since 1760.

They really should have known it was going to happen every 254 years.

If that's Scottish logic, God help them!

Bottom line, I don't care if Scotland leaves. I'll be English again.