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BS: Who do consider to be a genius?
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: GUEST,Adam Zero Date: 21 Jun 05 - 09:49 PM I'm glad somebody mentioned Carl Kress. A real guitar genius. I'd say the musical genius of this century is probably Duke Ellington. I love Dylan and John Lennon, but they're not in the Duke's class. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: number 6 Date: 21 Jun 05 - 10:56 PM Please note Mr. Sidewinder the DC5 quote was note mine. But I do agree with it. Millions of $, millions of fans do not manifiest a 'genius' History will prove that the Beatles were a pop group, who wrote many of the the best popular tunes of there time, not unlike Stephen Foster. Good music, but certainly not music that shook the pillars of music history. Actually I find that Nelson Riddle line extremely humorus ... good one Sidewinder, I tilt my hat to you! I am very familiar with the Let it Be album (showing age there)and it is I confess my favourite of theirs. I even anxiously purchased the 'Naked' release. Yes,I like "two of us", it is poignant meloncholia (jeesh), "Get Back", I have certainly been astounded by more swamp rock gutteral majesty than that (you have a way with words there), "Long and Winding Road", sorry I always skip that dribbling peace of crap. You forgot to mention "I Me Mine", and "Old Brown Shoe" ... George Harrison, if there was an intelligent one in the group he certainly was the one, and I say that sincerely. "It's all about "pushing the barriers and planting the seeds" ... A garden doesn't just thrive on it's own, it must always be tilled. George Martin was the gardener. Respectfully (to you Sidewinder), sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: Janie Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:07 PM I gotta go with Zappa....and maybe Dylan and maybe Joni Mitchell. I don't know classical music or composers well enough to have an opinion. I thought David Bowie's earlier stuff was brilliant. Thats it from the peanut gallery. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: number 6 Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:22 PM I correct myself .... I meant "For you Blue", not "Old Brown Shoe". Elmore James aint got nothin on this baby! sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: GUEST Date: 21 Jun 05 - 11:31 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: PoppaGator Date: 22 Jun 05 - 02:05 AM Ditto to jaze: Mississippi John Hurt was something else indeed. Another Mississippian with his own very unique and peculiar performance genius: Fred MacDowell. I heard his live recording of "Good Mornin' Little Schoolgirl" on the radio the other night (from "Live at the Gaslight," if I'm not mistaken) and actually got goosebumps. I had forgotten how intense and truly thrilling old Fred could be! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: GUEST,Penguin Egg Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:54 AM I would have to put forward the name of Thelonious Monk. He pioneered a whole new form of piano playing that has not been equaled since. He was also a great composer. Check out "The Blue Note Years" and just about anything else with his name on it. Also, when I hear John Coltrane and Eric Dolphy playing, I am hearing genius. Check out "John Coltrane live at Birdland with Eric Dolphy." Charles Mingus is the great composer, band leader and bass player of the 20th Century. Pure genius. Check out "Blues and roots," "The Clown", "Mingus Ah Um" and "Mingus Oh Yeah." Bert Jansch. A brilliant guitarist who pionneered an evolving new technique of playing and songwriting in a number of classic albums. Check out "Bert Jansch,"" Jack Orion," "Rosemary Lane" and "Avocet". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: Le Scaramouche Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:08 AM Sidewinder, isn't "Let It Be" much after they had already established their sound? To argue the point you would need examples of their work prior to GM. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: The Shambles Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:21 AM While it's easy to be critical of these "geniuses" for their difficult personalities (while being envious of their accomplishments and success), it might be more appropriate to sympathize with them, even perhaps pity them, for how very difficult they make life for themselves. Perhaps - if they chose to live alone on some deserted island. But they they don't generally choose to do this. They may be trapped - to some extent - by their own talent into being hard upon themselves but that does not entitle them to be hard upon others. They also don't tend to deny themselves the pleasures of the flesh - even if they often deny any responsibility of or care long-term for the results of this. Don't want to enlarge on this subject too much here - but Michael Jackson is a good example. Some would consider him to be genius and possibly excuse the less acceptable aspects of his lifestyle. Those who have come close to him and have suffered as a result of this lifstyle - are perhaps the ones we should sympathize with? The sad aspect is that there does not seem to be a shortage of people who are prepared (for a time anyway) to put up with and excuse this treatment - in order it would seem to bathe in the reflected glory. I don't think I am saying that those with special talents should be expected to show more consideration to others than lesser mortals - but only that the general behaviour of all of us - should be judged on a level playing field. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Jun 05 - 08:00 AM The only real love is unconditional love. (That doesn't mean, though, that you put up with bad behaviour on the part of those you love...you just keep loving them (within yourself) regardless, that's all.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: GUEST,Sidewinder. Date: 22 Jun 05 - 12:03 PM "Prisoner" I am very pleased we share a mutual admiration for a much overlooked masterpiece from the Fabs. I must however confess my personal favourites are "Abbey Road", "Beatles For Sale" and "Help!" which I am sure you are well aware; Sir George added his technical wizardry to.In defense of the Beatle sound "Scaramouche" it was honed and crafted in Hamburg between 1960 -1962 and listening to the poor quality recordings that exist (Lennon was quoted as saying "our best stuff was never recorded" not knowing these tapes existed) I have been amazed at how diverse and insightful their reportoire was; bearing in mind the slump in standards since the initial explosion of Rock and Roll circa 1956 -1958.At this time the likes of Fabian and Bobby Vinton polluted the stream of consciousness .The early raw Beatles had more in common with later garage bands like The Kingsmen, MC5 and later The Clash etc but were able to deliver a standard or showtune with an assured, uncomplicated, professional ease that far outclassed any "Working Class" combo treading the boards at that time. Sure, they were rough around the edges but that merely added to their overall charm and appeal.I can assure you that had these qualities not been present they would have been passed over by Sir George as just another Beat group on the one hit wonder trail. The DC5, and most others, could only dream of having such a rich and varied maelstrom of musical and creative attributes -presented with Mr Epstein's showbusiness aplomb how could they fail to be the biggest thing since Elvis and then ...the rest is musical history that will live forever. Regards. Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: Le Scaramouche Date: 22 Jun 05 - 12:15 PM Wasn't arguing with your point, only the logic used to get there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: The Shambles Date: 22 Jun 05 - 01:56 PM The only real love is unconditional love. (That doesn't mean, though, that you put up with bad behaviour on the part of those you love...you just keep loving them (within yourself) regardless, that's all.) The 'love' than many of his devoted fans show to Michael Jackson (because of what they consider to be his musical genius) is certainly unconditional and often blind to the facts. However, as most of them do not actually know him personally - I am not sure that this can be thought of as real love or any love at all. I suspect it is something far more worrying. Recent films on the fans who had camped outside the courtroom show some of them praying to little shines devoted to him. The extent that some of these fans would be prepared to go to demonstrate this unconditional 'love' to their genius/hero - probably concerns me just as much as Michael Jackson's apparent need to nurture and feed (vampire like) off of this uncritical adulation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: Le Scaramouche Date: 22 Jun 05 - 02:36 PM I'll add Paul Robeson. What he could do with just a voice..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: John Hardly Date: 22 Jun 05 - 03:28 PM "genius" is not a synonym for "talent" or "skill". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: number 6 Date: 22 Jun 05 - 03:32 PM Thelonius Monk .... most certainly deserves to be mentioned here .. thanks Penguin Egg!! sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: gnu Date: 22 Jun 05 - 03:57 PM After Zappa and Ian Anderson, Becker and Fagen (Steely Dan)... a VERY close third. I recall someone saying Tommy Makem... yes, but you actually have to see him perform in person to understand. A true Bard. Kinda the same for Valdy, Bruce Coburn, and many other artists... although Bruce did a TV special that was absolutely amazing. The music and poetry is amazing, but, the guitar was 'beyond'. You just don't get to hear a lot of the truly genius stuff because of the marketing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: number 6 Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:25 PM "You just don't get to hear a lot of the truly genius stuff because of the marketing." .... good statement gnu. Valdy ... well deserved here !! sIx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: gnu Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:41 PM sIx... I sat in awe of Valdy for nearly two hours at the Fredericton Playhouse. There was an intro band, and then Valdy with a few others. Then intermission. Then, Valdy on a stool for nearly two hours. And, despite numerous cries of, "(Play me a) Rock and Roll Tune" from the younger, more rowdy attendees, he never played it. What he did play, and sing, was true magic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: gnu Date: 22 Jun 05 - 04:45 PM Ooops... "Song" instead of "Tune"... I've got a memory like a steel trap... rusted open. Could be the Green, but I'd like to think not (at all). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: Peter T. Date: 22 Jun 05 - 06:16 PM Meanwhile -- Brian Epstein was one of the worst managers in history, it is common knowledge that he got the worst deals, made unbelievably bad decisions, etc. -- his great claim to fame was his initial drive to get the Beatles recognised, after that it was all downhill. "Let It Be" is a dreary album, almost as bad as the "Only A Northern Song" fillers the Beatles did to get the second side of the Yellow Submarine album. They were still geniuses. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: GUEST Date: 22 Jun 05 - 11:10 PM Was Epstein a worse manager for The Beatles than Col. Tom Parker was for Elvis Presley? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: GUEST,Sidewinder. Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:21 AM Brian Epstein was a genuine man who actually liked and admired The Beatles as artists and would not force them to do anything they didn't want to do. His talent was in the way he presented them on stage i.e. wearing suits and bowing after every number.Col. Tom Parker had no respect for Elvis Presley whatsoever and manipulated him consistently for over twenty years allowing only glimpses of the true talent of The King to shine through i.e. The 68 Comeback Special.However, he did make Elvis one of the richest stars in the world through mind boggling deals with Hollywood and Las Vegas moguls who swallowed all the Colonels hype. Unfortunately for The Beatles Brian Epstein lacked this facility for "cooking up deals". Regards. Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Jun 05 - 01:45 AM no Epstein was a visionary manager. not a great business man, but you can't have everything. parker was weird. But they were both smarter than evrybody else around them. its easy to see a field for creative development when somebody else has pointed it out. Thery were the guys who pointed out the potential of markreting rock acts to the world. its worth pointing out that neither of them had to knock anybody down to get control of their artists. In both cases there was hardly a queue forming to be the manager of Presley or The Beatles. Also both guys were working in an industry that was going through massive changes. they couldn't really have been expected to do any better. they were human. They had their limitations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: GUEST,Sidewinder. Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:06 AM And that's why we love them all -Brian for the way he hung around mens toilets and the Colonel for making Elvis do " Girl Happy" and " Kissin' Cousins". Regards. Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: The Shambles Date: 23 Jun 05 - 02:11 AM With questions like this - are we in danger of encouraging music makers to be in more of a competition than they and life already is? Is there then a real danger that what we really encourage by this - is winning? And that those names who become well-known and successful will become so as a result of life's natural winners and self-promoters - rather than from life's natural music makers? Being good at self promotion in any field - could be thought of as genius but success at this can be measured to an extent by the fame received. I am not too sure how musical genius can really be measured. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: GUEST,Sidewinder. Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:29 PM As the voices from a distant past emerge we are told that several parties were interested in both The Beatles and Presley. However, The Beatles in their innocence chose a man they believed to be genuine and committed to their collective cause; "where are we going? To the top Johnny!". Elvis didn't choose anyone to be his manager he was coaxed into it by the people around him who the Colonel manipulated into convincing Elvis it was the best thing for him.Hank Williams manager (Oscar Davis) expressed a keen interest in becoming Elvis' manager before Parker had even heard of Elvis.Allan Williams was The Beatles manager,on and off,for around a couple of years before Brian put his case forward.Talent like this does not go unnoticed for long,and both artists were in ascendency when they were picked up.I would add that both artists were talented, both became amazingly famous,and in very diffent ways had a level of genius involved in their approach to music.It is amazing that neither could read or write music in notation form yet produced music that transcends the pop idiom in which it was formulated and have gone on to even greater success after their respective demises.Genius has to be recognised before it is relevant and this can take on many forms of validation of which this is "maybe" a couple. Regards. Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: GUEST Date: 23 Jun 05 - 12:48 PM I had heard that Col. Tom Parker nixed a couple of lucrative deals for Elvis. For one, Elvis never toured Europe because of a problem with Parker's passport ... ?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: GUEST,Sidewinder. Date: 28 Jun 05 - 12:24 PM From what I have read; for every bad deal the Colonel made, for whatever reasons, he contrived masterstrokes that meant more money for less work in the sixties and still had the declining Presley on top dollars for live appearances in the seventies.Whatever his shortcomings as a manager he is still perceived to be the best artist manager in music history.Which, in his chosen field, seems to afford him some credit and maybe he was a genius.He arrived in the US a penniless imigrant and died a multi millionaire by his own machinations and manipulations he earned the respect of a worldwide industry and could call in favours from the "movers and shakers" for decades. He also kept Elvis under control despite everyone around him saying "Elvis did what he wanted, when he wanted" he never escaped the Colonel and handed over 50% of his earnings willingly! A svengali, a hustler, a carnival barker, a dog catcher, a promoter, a businessman, a genius? Regards. Sidewinder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: GUEST,Brewster. Date: 29 Jun 05 - 08:31 PM But did he kill the goose that laid the golden egg? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: GUEST,Garrett Kid. Date: 01 Jul 05 - 11:50 AM Yep!! Could be so!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: DougR Date: 02 Jul 05 - 01:32 AM Bobert, Amos, Big Mick, kat, Bill D., dianavan, so many others I can't remember them. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: dianavan Date: 03 Jul 05 - 01:39 PM Why thank-you DougR. I consider it an honour to be in the same category as the above. However, I am no musical genius. If you ever heard me play the accordian you would certainly agree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 03 Jul 05 - 05:50 PM Raymond Scott. Raymond who??? If anyone here remembers him at all, it probably because he conducted the Lucky Strike Hit Parade Orchestra on "Your Hit Parade" during the 1950s. But Scott was an electronics and musical innovator, producing much forward looking (and quirky) music. His myriad accomplishments can be found at a web page dedicated to his accomplishments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: DougR Date: 03 Jul 05 - 06:02 PM Raymond Scott Trotter. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 03 Jul 05 - 08:11 PM Doug, do you mean John Scott Trotter who was an arranger and conductor on Decca Records? He did a lot of stuff with Bing Crosby et. al. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who do consider to be a genius? From: GUEST Date: 29 Aug 05 - 12:03 AM I was sort of "anti-Shatner" until I read this thread about his " auto-plucking" - now I know he big time like WYWSIG, HarpGirl, and Mr. A. Sale.
Thank you for clarifiying "genius" on the American Continent. |
