BS: American English usages taking over Brit

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 04:48 PM

Really? Get it right? I hear the incorrect nickoRag-you-a all the time on BBC news.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM

But Nicko-rag-you-a happens to be the English pronunciation of that name, even if not the US or Spanish one — just as Pă-riss happens to be the English pronunciation of the capital of France, though not the French one [the French for that matter, have their own name for our capital city too]. So it is not incorrect, it is conventionalised — an example of one of those which have been assimilated and anglicised. I speculated above [01.32 pm] as to why this sometimes occurs, sometimes not...

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 05:19 PM

I just disagree with you.

It seems like a deliberate disdain for something that could easily be said in English that is, as McG wrote, "Basic good manners should require that an attempt is made to say such names in a way that is broadly accurate."

Americans don't say Nicaragua with a Spanish accent, they say it in English without adding a "you" in the word that doesn't belong there. That's my final word on it. I'm finished.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 05:40 PM

And who appointed McG, whoever he may be, to be the universal arbiter of courtesy, I should like to know? And what a strange thing for you, Alice, to get so peculiarly irritable and unmannerly about. And then to flounce off like that, insisting on the last word.   I am surprised at you.

With all civil compliments - Michael

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Gurney
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 06:23 PM

Back to the thread.
'Two times more' for 'Twice as.' As a child, when I first heard it, I wondered if it meant (original figure) x 2 = 3 times as (whatever it was. Effective, strong, etc.)

I wonder why we stopped using 'thrice.'

Just realised. 'More' instead of 'As!'

And, my browser thinks realised isn't a word.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 06:32 PM

There are many words which USAians pronounce so incorrectly as to sound hilarious, because they accentuate the wrong syllable.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:28 PM

Odd, innit, flasher!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 08:58 PM

McGrath, I listen to the BBC News and business news, and I agree that they try to get names correctly. One evening, wanting a repeat of a changing story on the business news, I listened twice, an hour apart. The broadcaster got a name wrong in the first, but corrected herself next time around. An excellent group of broadcasters!

There is so little foreign news on American news broadcasts that they have scant opportunity to go wrong!

The jag-u-ar does sound odd to me, partly because of the Spanish influence in most places I have lived. It must sound odd to some Englishmen as well since the Oxford English Dictionary puts the two-syllable pronunciation first! Or is it just the Oxbridge-Edinburgh graduates who follow the OED?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:03 PM

Sometimes words get imported, but only halfway, for a particular context. So we'd still say "cupboard", where I believe Americans would say "closet" - but no one would ever talk about a gay man as "coming out of the cupboard".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:11 PM

For us, a cupboard would be where you store cups (and bowls and dishes, etc.) and a closet is where you store clothes.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:28 PM

I suspect that is another case where the Americans have retained the older meaning, which then gets reimported back here.
......................................

I wonder if there are any examples in moder times of cases where the traffic has gone the other way, and an English usage has tended to replace the American one? Precious few I would imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:34 PM

Cupboard- now there's one that would stump someone who is shaky in English! A board for cups? How odd!

Had to look this one up- the OED gives a three-barreled definition as number 1:
"A 'board' or table to place cups and other vessels on, a piece of furniture for the display of plate, a sideboard or buffet. I don't think the first is current in U. S. or Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:42 PM

Pronounced "cubbord".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 09:44 PM

Otherwise it wouldn't rhyme with Mother Hubbard.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 10:02 PM

How is it, Q, that sideboard doesn't bother you? :)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 10:13 PM

Doesn't bother me, but, like cupboard, could give pause to the English as a second language element in the population.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 09:42 AM

To me, a "cubberd" can be one of the cabinets that line the kitchen wall or the place where coats are kept. It always has an attached adjective...i.e, "coat cupboard".   The tall thing with a glass front where the dishes you never use are kept is the "china cabinet" or, sometimes, the "breakfront".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 09:50 AM

In the Old Mother Hubbard nursery rhyme, however, the cupboard in question, as it was supposed to contained a bone for the dog, would have been the specialist form of food-cupboard called a 'larder'. Do the Americans have a word for that?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 10:30 AM

MtheGM, at our house (here in Indianapolis) there is a facility, near the back door next to the kitchen, which was, I think, designed as a coat closet. It's about two feet deep, just wider than the door. At some point it lost that mission, and several shelves were installed.

This is where we store such things as canned goods and mixes, bottles of various condiments, flour, oil, on the three large shelves in the middle. A narrower shelf, way up, holds miscellaneous household stuff, and there's more of that on the floor, below the deep shelves.

We have never used the term "larder" for this. Instead it's "the pantry", or maybe "the pantry closet".

Incidentally, most folks tend to think that "pantry" has something to do with the storage of pots and pans. Logical, no?   Wrong. The name goes way back, to a point when the pantry was where bread was kept. "Pan" = "bread".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 11:16 AM

Thank you, Dave. Here, the word 'pantry' tends to be used for a larger, walk-in, larder. Also, for no reason I can make out, for the private room in a big house in which the butler could relax, or carry out his duties such as cleaning the family silver ['butler's pantry'].

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 11:38 AM

I've never heard of anyone thinking "pantry" comes from pots and pans! The root is actually from "bread", the Latin pan, which went to the Old French for bread closet.

Just as in Europe, in the US, pantries are for storing food and other things for the kitchen, a small room or large closet. Expensive big homes like the oversized mansions that were the craze among wealthy during the real estate boom have larger butler's pantries for the housekeeping staff. Our town used to be a ranching and small college town until a ski resort was developed nearby in the 1970's. Now it is considered a resort town, too, and many over-sized mansions (second or third homes) were built around us, most with majestic views of the mountains. I once had a job that took me into these mansions. They were often empty except for the housekeeper, with the out-of-state owners showing up only during trout fishing or ski season.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 11:48 AM

"The organization that includes the Army and Navy is the duhFENCE dePARTment, but the two parts of a (American) football team are the OFFence and the DEEfence."

Never thought about that but now you say it I see you're right. Facinating. You learn something new everyday.

Now: why the difference?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 12:42 PM

Maybe because one defence is an adjective and the other is a noun.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 12:44 PM

Pronunciation is often related to context....

If using Department of Defense in a sentence, I would likely say:

"D'partment of DeFENCE", with NO particular first vowel...but if referring to a store, I think I would clearly say 'dePARTment store'.

No particular reason...just habit and ease of speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Mrs Cobble
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 12:55 PM

When I was young 'forms' had to be filled IN, now they are filled OUT!! Did that come from the USA ?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 01:07 PM

Poem #149 of 230: FOR BETTER OR WORSE

Largely due to America,
    English - to use Italian -
Is now the world's lingua franca,
    Where, it seems, it once was Latin;
But, while brogues are a good thing,
    I doubt American spelling.

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: pdq
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 01:57 PM

It's safe to say that most Americans know the word "pantry". It refers to a small room, often located next to the kitchen. Dry food and canned goods are stored there, as well as (perhaps) paper towels and paper plates, breakfast cereal, and non-perishable food in bulk.

Post-war homes built from about 1946-1984 were minimalist cheap boxes and the pantry was one of the niceties that usually got skipped. These affordable houses eventually resulted in about 2 out of every 3 people living in family-owned dwellings.

Since the economic boom started around 1985, new homes have become more luxurious with marble countertops, huge master bathrooms, and maybe even a pantry.

Much less likely that we would know the word "larder", which can be a strcture similar to a root cellar or the contents of such a place. Mormans are expected to keep enough non-perishable food on hand to feed their family for a year. That stockpile is a "larder" wherever it is stored.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM

Some of this reminds me of my childhood home, much different from that of the present time.
The pantry has been replaced by wall-mounted cabinets in newer homes. I still miss the pantry, a room off the kitchen where food supplies were kept. On the floor were bins with flour, sugar, pinto beans (this was in New Mexico) and potatoes. Lard was bought in 25-lb. pails. Shelves were of more interest to me, as fruit (in season) and all sorts of crackers, and cookies (biscuits to the English) were kept, along with the canned goods, and specialty items. I could always find a snack there, and it was a place where I would be out of sight. (A friend or two from more monied families had butler's pantrys.)

Brooms, mops, etc. and old coats and galoshes were kept in a closet near the back door. Milk was delivered in those days, left on the back steps. Ice was also delivered, and put in the ice box- At times I still refer to the fridge as the ice box. Somehow a pair of ice-tongs from those days has stayed with us, and a few years back I found a dairy cart's horse-stop at a house sale; I couldn't resist buying it. It is an object that disappeared from use long ago, along with horse-drawn cartage.
In the dining room, a large cabinet with drawers near the bottom. two doors in the middle section, two upper drawers for the silverware, a flat surface surmounted with mirror, and display shelf was called a sideboard or occasionally a buffet, the terms used interchangably by us.
Table linens and large serving pieces were kept there, much only used at holidays. The surface held cut glass and a silver centerpiece (The day to day stuff was kept in the kitchen, where the family usually ate at the kitchen table).
There also was a china cabinet in the dining room, with 'china' (Limoges, English or German sets), mostly handed down from the previous generation, and a 'tea' trolley used for liquor (but not tea).

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Slag
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 03:59 PM

This all seems beyond the bloody pale to me.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 04:52 PM

Ok, explain what a 'pale' is.... and why one would be 'bloody'.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 04:58 PM

Ignoring the intent of the last post- a space having bounds, or one of the pales enclosing a palisade.
The expression is fairly common, meaning out-of-bounds of proper conduct to Americans, but I doubt that many know what a pale is.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:01 PM

Does anyone remember which hollywood actor it was who described his film as "comedic"?

Ignorant actors have a large role to play in affecting language.

They are being interviewed and they don't know the word for something so, with the butter still ice cold in their mouths they invent a new one.

Then all the other actors copy them in an orgy of sycophantic reassurance.

Mr Cruise, it isn't "comedic", it's "comic".

And could everyone else stop copying him please.


(or whoever it was, though the first time I heard it, long before it became common, it was Tom Cruise who said it in an interview)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Lox
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:05 PM

In Ireland Dublin is referred to by non dubliners as "the pale".

The west of Ireland being definitely beyond the pale ...

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:10 PM

"Beyond the pale" refers to the time when effective English rule in Ireland was confined to a relatively small area centred on Dublin - "the Pale" (as in "palisade"). The rest of Ireland was therefore "beyond the pale", and, since English law did not operate there, considered to be lawless.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:29 PM

Well...ok, thanks. I learn something everyday here.

I had heard the expression for years, but only knew it as an expression meaning WAY out beyond normal limits...

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:45 PM

English is a street fightin' language from way back. It is not a static thing. I've been noticing many instances of people starting sentences with "So, ...." and I'm pretty sure that is relatively new in the media.

As for me, I've begin pronouncing schedule without a 'k' sound, which is not how I was raised, and using the long vowel sound for the word "process". I'm turning into a blankety blank canAdian!

At least I don't spell labor and flavor with a u.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 05:52 PM

Since pales in England go back quite a long way (in print 14th c.), beyond the pale" may go back before before its application to the Dublin area that remained under English law. One reference from 1347 refers to pales bounding a Seignur's demeigne (OED). The English 'pale' existed in the Dublin area by 1400, so McGrath could be correct.
There was also the English pale in France.
In any case, it is interesting that the phrase has persisted for such a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 06:27 PM

Labour,labor and labur all have a long history. The Latin is Labor.
Schedule comes from Latin Sceda, which in classical Latin was pronounced with a 'k' but in 'Church' Latin lacks it.

Canadians are taught 'English' English, but due to closeness and television, pronunciations are mixed up. No problema.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Gurney
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 07:42 PM

Beyond the pale = outside the fence/city wall/palisade as has been said. We still nail 'palings' on a fence.

Closet, in the English midlands, used to refer to the water closet or lavatory.

Hood = Bonnet, on an auto = car.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Slag
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 08:20 PM

I'm shootin' from the hip here but I think if you looked up "pa" in Pokorny or some Indo European dictionary apparatus you would find that it is a root for such words as "paleo-" and "pastor" and "pasture" (and "power" and "father" for that matter). Specifically I seem to remember that it was the stone fence that separated the "tamed" land from the wild. Why do the English love their manicured gardens so much? Why do so many Americans go for things like rock gardens and "natural" landscaping? It all has to do with the "pale". It all has to do with civilization vs chaos. Hey? How much chaos can you tolerate?

Now, about shooting from the hip...!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 08:30 PM

"The Latin is Labor. Schedule comes from Latin Sceda, which in classical Latin was pronounced with a 'k' but in 'Church' Latin lacks it." Q

I've noticed quite frequently that a concession is made that the Americans' pronunciations are more historically/linguistically accurate than those of the British. Why is that? And why don't we, the Americans, get credit for that? :)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: melodeonboy
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 09:51 AM

"Closet, in the English midlands, used to refer to the water closet or lavatory."


Also in Kent, I believe. My grandad always referred to it as the closet. It stil sounds slightly odd to me (however common it may now be) when people talk about hanging their clothes in the closet!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 11:27 AM

And in the "Oh Dear!" category:
From the Australian Prime Minister re: the oil leak disaster and fire:
Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said Monday he was "deeply disturbed" at the latest turn of events on the rig, signaling the government's rising frustration that fixing the spill is taking so long.

"Do I think this is acceptable? No, I don't," Rudd told Fairfax Radio Network. "Are we angry with this company? Yes we are. Are were trying to do everything we can to get this under control? You betcha."

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 12:15 PM

In reference to the Bubbler comment way up thread... that one is used in Rhode Island, too. I grew up saying bubbler, and when my family moved to Maryland, we didn't know how to ask for the public water dispenser, because we didn't know the local term for it (water fountain). I also grew up with the misplaced "r"s. When I first attended a school in Maryland, I was shocked to discover that I was spelling "idea" wrong. As far as I knew, idea was spelled, "idear". I don't recall having ever been corrected by a teacher in RI when I spelled it that way, either.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 01:18 PM

The things you can find!

The story of "bubbler"

and they provide a linguistic map of the use of "bubbler"

Obviously, this is an excellent example of what I mentioned above as 'naming items by the most common local commercial product name.', as in Jello, Listo, etc.
I can see why this would happen, but it frustrates me when folks stubbornly cling to their local nomenclature even after moving from an area and realizing that it was NOT a generic name. (not you, Carol...I realize you were only noting it.)
   Ah well, I am a philosopher...not a psychologist. I keep expecting reason from human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 01:44 PM

Survival sometimes dictates openmindedness about accommodating new terminology. We were really thirsty while shopping, and we really needed to find a "water fountain", so we learned quickly once we discovered nobody knew what a "bubbler" was in Maryland. Of course, we pronounced it "bubblah", which probably made it even that much more impossible to understand.

It wasn't survival that helped me learn the difference between a milkshake and a frappe, but it was disappointment in the beverage I was served that facilitated my learning the differences. When I was still living in Rhode Island, we were touristing in the DC area and I asked for a milkshake thinking I would get flavored shook milk. I was kind of disgusted with the thick ice creamy "drink" I was given. After living in Maryland for several years, I had forgotten what I once knew about milk shakes in New England, and I ordered one expecting to be served a delicious thick, ice creamy "drink", and I was deflated to discover that I had been served only flavored shook milk. Live and learn.

On the subject of word usages and pronunciation differences between spouses from different countries, JtS and I still have mock arguments over the pronunciation of the word, "pasta". I like most of the Canadian pronunciations better than US pronunciations, but I'll never like the way Canadians pronounce words like "pasta". I say "pahsta", and JtS says "paasta" (the past part is pronounced the same as the word "past"). He says it's pretentious to say it the way I do, which I find ironic and amusing.

He decided at some point to try to adopt the US pronunciation of "produce" and he assumed that the difference in pronunciation would be the same as the difference with the word "process". He pronounces the "o" in "pro" as a long "o", and I use a short "o". So he was very surprised when he learned that I have never heard anyone in the US pronounce "produce" with a short "o". Why he picked that one word to change, I'll never know.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 01:49 PM

I should correct this one:

He decided at some point to try to adopt the US pronunciation of "produce" and he assumed that the difference in pronunciation would be the same as the difference with the word "process". He pronounces the "o" in "pro" as a long "o", and I use a short "o" when I'm saying "process" (but not when I'm saying "produce").

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM

Consistency- what's that? It doesn't exist in the U. S.

I was raised with pro-cess (SW U. S.) and seldom heard praw-cess until I spent some time in New York. Pro-duce and prod-uce also vary regionally.

The Merriam Webster Colleciate Dictionary is based on the most common U. S. pronunciations. Here is what it has on those words:
Process- 1. prä-cess; 2. pro-cess
produce- 1. prä-duce; 2. pro-duce

Thus both are accepted in U. S. speech. Undoubtedly there are regional maps of the variation, but I am not going to look them up.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 02:21 PM

closet (from the online Etymology dictionary)

    c.1340, from O.Fr. closet "small enclosure," dim. of clos, from L. clausum "closed space," from neut. pp. of claudere "to shut" (see close (v.)). In Matt. vi:6 used to render L. cubiculum, Gk. tamieion; originally in Eng. "a private room for study or prayer;" modern sense of "small side-room for storage" is first recorded 1616. The adjective meaning "secret, unknown" recorded from 1952, first of alcoholism, but by 1970s used principally of homosexuality; the phrase come out of the closet "admit something openly" first recorded 1963, and led to new meanings for the word out.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:15 PM

From my reading, in mediaeval castles, the toilet (can't remember the term used) was a hole was overhanging the moat, which received the deposits. The effluvium percolated upwards back into the closet, where the inhabitants kept their spare clothing, because the smell kept the moths away.
Just the rich inhabitants, of course. Poor ones HAD no spare clothes.

Neatly ties up both usages, eh!