BS: American English usages taking over Brit

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:28 PM

Why don't people look up generally accepted pronunciations rather than posting their local or personal usages and pet hates and excoriating variations?

Crow Sister- Decade in the Oxford English Dictionary is given as de-cade (with equal stress on both syllables), not dek-ade.

Someone called 'comedic' American, but the OED has an English quote from 18-something.
A catalogue I just received from the BBC describes a DVD offering of "Sensitive Skin" as follows: "Joanna Lumley ...absolutely electrifies as a recent widow in this warm and touching comedic drama."
Moreover, 'comedical' appeared in print in 1600 (OED).
A comedist is a writer of comedies. Etc.

Decay, Merriam Webster's Dictionary, gives di-kay as the preferred U. S. pronunciation.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Slag
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:32 PM

Language lives in the idiom.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:37 PM

Gurney, I think the hole in the castle wall is called a "garderobe".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:40 PM

re: pasta...My 2nd generation Italian wife says 'pahsta', and looks agahsta at any other pronunciation.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:42 PM

(and I am informed that in England, they often order in 'pitza'....)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:45 PM

It looks to me like this thread is more about individual experiences with word usages and pronunciations than generally accepted ones. At least, that seems to be what the thread originator was talking about. So it doesn't seem at all off topic for people to discuss these things from their own perspectives. Besides, it's an interesting and informative subject. Also, what's generally accepted in one location might not be in another. Frequently there aren't any generally accepted pronunciations or usages.

What doesn't seem to quite make sense is when people insist that the word usages and pronunciations that are in use in their own locality are the generally accepted ones.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:46 PM

How do you pronounce "pasta", Bill?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:51 PM

No — I was the thread originator, and words and idioms were what I was talking about [as e.g. American military 'off limits; driving out traditional English 'out of bounds']. Other people drifted my thread into variant pronunications, changing names of places in different languages {which caused Alice to give vent to a most peculiar outburst and I hope she has got her temper back now}, and so on. All very interesting, no doubt; but only marginally or tangentially related to my original point.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 03:55 PM

Dictionaries can give "generally accepted pronunciations", but these don't necessarily coincide with the variation in how people talk, especially regional variations, even within countries. (eg Geordies!) Nor for that matter do they keep tag of the way in which speech varies over the years.

There's always a tension of opinion as to whether dictionaries should be primarily descriptive or prescriptive - should they record how we do speak, or instruct us as to how we should speak.

The general consensus, in the UK anyway, seems to be that the emphasis should be on the former.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 04:13 PM

Dictionaries can assert that they are giving "generally accepted pronunciations", but that doesn't make it true. As we can see, there are so many regional variations in word usages and pronunciations, I think it's often not possible to nail down a "generally accepted" word usage or pronunciation, especially considering the fact that even dictionaries are frequently not in agreement with one another.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 04:21 PM

That's as may be, but the dictionar also serves the purpose of standardizing definitions, spellings and pronunciation of words.

This is useful so that when we write each other letters we can understand each other.

Aiph woui dythunt woueed phoaind kerrm-moon-akay-shunn dyphykoulter.

That's one of the reasons for dictionary's - they aren't just collections of linguistic trivia.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 04:22 PM

In the US, at least, when a child goes to a parent or teacher and asks how to pronounce a word, the answer is often "look it up in the dictionary". This is supposed to be a learning experience.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 04:54 PM

Mthe GM

While you are at it, change off-license to out of .... Hmmm, doesn't make sense, does it?

"Off limits" was accepted into the Oxford English Dictionary because it is useful; defined as "outside the limits within which a particular group or class of people must remain; not to be frequented or patronized, esp. by military personnel; out of bounds."
This more specialized meaning, originally coined by the military, has proven useful.
Webster's has an additional sense; "not to be interferred with," which is later that the WW2 original meaning.

Off limits is common in Canadian writing, e. g., polluted bay water in Bay of Quinte, Ontario- "Raw bay water still off limits: health officials." Bellville Intelligencer. "City land off limits," Windsor Star.
Also see- Australian Customs Services notices, World Wildlife Federation articles (Fishing for Funds to be placed off limits for rule breakers), New Zealand where the Army training area, called "Off Limits," is hosting motorcycle races, etc.

Out of bounds also is in common usage in the U. S.; "He stepped out of bounds, or the ball went out of bounds," etc.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 05:48 PM

(I have always pronounced pasta the way Rita says it...and never even thought of other ways till this thread.)

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:40 PM

If everyone pronounced every word the way they are given in the dictionary, there would be no accents of dialects. I don't see the point in eliminating accents and dialects, and in fact, I think the world would be far less interesting, fun, and even less beautiful if that were the case. I like to use the dictionary for word meanings, myself, but if I'm in an area where a word has a meaning or pronunciation that differs from the one in the dictionary, most of the time, I'm going to respect that the people I am among at that moment do it differently. I like some of them better or worse than others, myself, but I don't see the point in trying to tell people they have to say it the way it is in the dictionary if that's not how it is done locally.

One of the things I love about Newfoundland is that there is a different accent and/or dialect in just about every town or village, and I love all of them. I find it very sad that these are starting to go away because of the influence of television and films.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:41 PM

*accents or dialects

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 06:52 PM

The important thing to avoid the kind of linguistic confusion Lox demonstrated there is to regularise spelling. That avoids the kind of problem that Lox demonstrated there. But spelling is only a rough guide to pronunciation as best in English.

Even where dictionaries include phonetic guidance about official pronunciation, that can have very little effect on how English speakers around the world (or indeed around England) may actually say them.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 07:38 PM

"I don't see the point in eliminating accents and dialects,"

Standardizing spellings etc does not equate to eliminating the differences, it is about referring them to a common denominator.

That way we are able to talk about English as a language, while being able to define subcategories within it in relation to a central - and evolving core linguistic fundament.

There are very few people who speak perfect english all the time in ther own home, but for weathermen, politicians, doctors, lawyers etc throughout the english speaking world, it is essential that diagnoses, rulings, forecasts, policies, and interpretations are clear and unambiguous, so that a man from the outer hebrides may do business with a man from jersey without quibblig over the meaning of words etc.

A dictionary is nothing more than a practical problem solving tool.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 07:41 PM

By the way, I wrote all the above in a very refined clipped English accent.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:06 PM

"I don't see the point in eliminating accents and dialects..."

Neither do I.... they DO make the world more interesting and provide continuity in culture. I have NO objection to preserving tradition and having a comfortable way to speak in their neighborhoods.
I just wish more places had something similar to the Umgangsprache in Germany, or the standardized high-level language the Swiss employ - especially written for the use. This way, even though areas might have their colloquial differences, they could also have a general "almost everyone understands it" way of communicating.
In the USA and most industrialized countries, it would be the 'basic' form used on the 'National' television news programs.

In this country, there are problems in many school systems as programs are often faced with many students who do poorly because they don't 'get' basic instructions.

This might seem a bit of a departure from the thread topic, but it applies in a world where many folks visit other countries for education...or just as tourists.

(*grin*...I had an interesting debate with MGAS (Hil) at the Getaway as we debated what my very large box of a Dodge vehicle was called...a van? a camper? a caravan?.. I think we settled on 'that very large vehicle')

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:11 PM

Is anyone else reminded of all the other threads we've had over the years about American English and British English?

I guess we don't link related threads in the BS section the way we do now in the Music section. It just seems we are going over and over the same things we've discussed in previous threads.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:15 PM

I see Lox & I made similar points at about the same time.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:20 PM

Divided by a common language, thread Aug 08


Language - American/English, thread May 07


Two cultures divided by a common language


Searching on "language", all years, above are just 3 of the many threads that come up, including two called Mangling the English language.

Yup, we have gone off the specific topic in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:31 PM

The speech used by BBC broadcasters comes close to a standardized, common currency speech.
We get the complete BBC News Channel, by cable, and enjoy not only the news and business, but the many special programs that they present throughout the day. The language is good, 'clean' English, spoken with good diction; if they say pahs-ta, it is still understandable to those who say pas-ta.
Of course, the sports section causes head-scratching when the subject is kricket.

At the opposite end is "Eastenders," seen sometimes on television here.
And I can never remember if the slang expression 'half six' is 5:30 or 6:30.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:45 PM

I don't have any problem with standardized spellings. But we know that how things are spelled really has nothing to do with how words are pronounced and how they are used, which to me is a good thing. And it's definitely true that it's not uncommon for English speakers to not be able to understand each other very well. I don't have a problem with that, either, any more than I have a problem with there being many different languages in the world besides English, and many dialects within those languages. I like living in a world that is linguistically diverse.

I was thinking about asking you what kind of accent you normally have, Lox, knowing what I do about your background. Is it more like your place of origin, the country in which you spent your youth, or the place where you now live? Or a blend of all three?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 08:57 PM

On the subject of schools, I agree that it is good if people are able to speak and write both in their local accent/dialect as well as in a form of their language that is considered appropriate for academic settings. JtS is very much that way. His normal speech is perhaps a little less influenced by his Newfoundland origins (alas), and his speech can be very generic sounding (for North America) when needed, but he can and does talk in a thick Newfoundland dialect when he's talking to other Newfoundlanders.

I somehow lost my Rhode Island accent when we moved to Maryland. My siblings picked up the local Maryland accent, but for some reason, I did not. So my speech sounds much more North American generic and not resembling any particular place. I don't know what I think of that. I think I might prefer to have kept my Rhode Island accent had that been possible for me. I'm glad I don't have a native Maryland accent (sorry native Marylanders - different strokes and all that).

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Slag
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 11:39 PM

Oh, and Bill_D! "Bloody" because that is one of the functions of a "pale". Lines drawn in the sand, barbed wire, razor wire, pales ("impaled"?), moats, Great Walls; they are all designed to set a limit with consequences for those who do not heed the meaning. Lines are drawn and enforced by those who have authority and power, from property lines to national boundaries (frontiers). "Bloody" because "bloody" is pretty much an identifiable English expression as is the term "pale" and after all, that's what this thread started off about.

Nearly every dictionary I have referenced shows the term "lawyer" with the preferred pronunciation (sorry. I don't have umlauts available) "lah' yer", but it is almost universally pronounced "loi'-yer" (which drives me nuts!). Are these people who practice loi? or law? Well, those folks do tend to have their own language, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Gurney
Date: 02 Nov 09 - 11:58 PM

Q, 'half six' is an abbreviation of 'half past six,' or as Americans might say six-thirty. But which side of the six IS the thirty?

We now await the substitution of 'proven' for 'proved.' I've never heard a Commonweath citizen use proven.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 12:08 AM

Right side.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Gurney
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 01:03 AM

Oh, proven IS sometimes used, in 'legal' language.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 02:24 AM

"I've never heard the word proven used by a Commonwealth citizen"

The word 'proven' is a common enough term in Scottish Standard English. There are other words which are thought to be more American but are also very common in Scotland like "gotten and pinkie" I think it is a mistake to think in terms like "British English" when in fact there are various types of British English.

It is like the full page article in the Daily Mail yesterday which claimed that Halloween was an American import virtually uncelebrated in Britain up until several decades ago. Of course it has always been a big to do in Scotland the only real difference now being that since the film ET kids tend to call themselves "trick or treaters" instead of "guisers".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 03:02 AM

Most of our stuff (here in the US) comes from other places, originally. We just find ways of putting it all together and making it our own.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 06:47 AM

Hey Alice,

You know last night I was having a really interesting conversation with some friends of mine at my local bar, when I discovered that some other people had already had that conversation on a previous occasion in the same bar.

Boy did I feel silly.

Me and my friends should just have sat around and listened to a recording of the other peoples conversation as they had pretty much exhausted the the topic thus rendering our conversation redundant.

A passer by who knew of their conversation pointed it out to us, and boy were we grateful!

She suggested we go and find out what they had said before wasting any more time effectively rehashing their ideas in what I know see was a completely substandard way.

I won't be making That mistake again!!

Oh and thanks for putting us straight in this thread by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 07:04 AM

Hey, I was not trying to stop the conversation, LOL, I was just pointing out how many times we've had similar threads!
Those interested in this thread just may be interested in the other old threads, too.
You misunderstood my reason for posting what I wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:01 AM

Q and McGrath, living close by a railway in Ireland Guards Van was in common usage with the old goods trains.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:11 AM

This might be of interest, bye the way we still "wet the tay" in the wee sick,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8339552.stm

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:17 AM

Gutties from Gutta Percha, the rubber substance extracted from trees, in Malaya?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 08:50 AM

Shouldn't "half six" be "three"?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 10:39 AM

"Proven" is from old Scottish law.

By contrast to English and American law, there are not TWO possible verdicts in a criminal trial, but three. In England and America, the jury may return a verdict of either "Guilty" or "Not Guilty". Not both, and not any other option.

In old Scottish law (I've heard that this has changed, but I don't know), the verdict might be "Guilty", "Not Guilty", or "Not Proven". The significance of "Not Proven" is that the prosecution has not sustained its burden or proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but that the evidence doesn't show that the defendant didn't do it. "Not Proven" doesn't give the defendant a clean bill of legal health, but declares that the State may not impose the punishment due to an established guilty party.

NOTE: On a related subject, in Anglo-American law, a jury NEVER returns a verdict of "Innocent". The "Not Guilty" verdict doesn't deal with innocence at all, but with the failure of proof of guilt. Innocence in our system is a moral or ethical concept, not a legal one. A verdict of "Not Guilty" doesn't find that "the defendant didn't do it", but that "the prosecution didn't prove that the defendant did the crime alleged against him", and doesn't distinguish between the factual not having committed the act and the mere failure of proof.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 10:45 AM

Now "Twitter" has a new meaning in every country.

I heard something (I think on National Public Radio) recently that was an example of a conversation in acronyms and internet slang.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:06 AM

However the principle of "innocent till proved guilty" means that a Not Guilty verdict means that a person has to be assumed to be innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 12:06 PM

Alice - Sorry - tough day.

Glad you were able to laugh at it though. It shows character.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 02:28 PM

Public school, anyone?
UK usage differs from American-Canadian usage.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 05:16 PM

Ah. Q, I have wondered about that- what is the rationale behind calling something restricted 'public'? There had to be a beginning somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 06:22 PM

I think it kind of makes sense when one takes into consideration the nature of monarchies throughout history and the nature of democracies (in particular, countries that started out as democracies). In a county like the US everything the government owns is the property of the people, hence, government schools are "public". In a country like the UK, that hasn't always been the case, so a school that is owned by members of the public rather than the government, might be called a "public" school. That's my theory, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,watcher
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 07:30 PM

In medieval days in England the only schooling was either the nobility having private tutors, or the church educating its own "workforce".
The public schools which developed (was it in the time of Henry the eighth ?) were open to anyone whose family could pay, hence public schools.
Admittedly this meant the merchants, small landowners and middle classes who could afford it rather than any peasant, so it wasnt the general public which we mean today, and which is the usage in American "public" schools

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 02:45 AM

"In a country like the UK etc"

Again like earlier in the thread this is simply expanding English (and Welsh) usage to the entire UK. In Scotland education for all was a concept whch took on earlier than most other places. Local schools run and financed by the authorities are traditionally known as Public Schools in the way we have Public Libraries etc. Nowadays to avoid possible confusion with English usage the Public Schools are often referred to as State Schools. The Private Schools are often called Independent Schools.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 02:57 AM

I suppose it is, and it also looks like my theory didn't hold much water anyway. But it can be confusing trying to refer to a country that seems to be made up of more than one country. I imagine it's equally confusing for those not in the US when we talk about the differences between our states.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 06:45 AM

Alice when I was young I heard the term,"what are you twittering about"
referring to someone annoying the listener.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: s&r
Date: 04 Nov 09 - 07:34 AM

What country started out as a democracy?

Stu