Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JennyO
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 01:55 AM

Personally, I can't see what all the fuss is about. It's an ad for chrissake - a good ad in my opinion, and I think Dylan looks good.

There is a real world out there you know.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 08:53 AM

We can't see the real world for all the advertising plastered over it.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 10:04 AM

People who are Dylan devotees aren't going to dislike ANYTHING their man does, pure and simple. He could be a mass murderer, and they'd come up with a reason to stick by him.

Ron, you seem to conveniently forget we judge people all the time, and measure what they seem to be against our own yardstick of values. You also seem to be unaware we have other options for expressing our displeasure with The Bob besides choosing not to buy VS undies (which aren't realistic clothing options for most humans anyway).

We can boycott Bob Dylan. Of course, I've been boycotting Bob Dylan since "Tangled Up in Blue" went out to the highest bidder, so I can't do anything more than I already have, besides share my opinion of him with others, which is what I'm doing in this thread and in my 3D life when this dumb fucking soft porn commercial comes up as a subject around the watercooler and among friends.

I once admired his songwriting ability, but have never felt he was THE musical icon of my generation, nor the spokesman of people of conscience of my generation, as his myth and hype PR machine has portrayed him over the years.

After all these years of enduring the Dylan hype, I not only do not admire the man, but I have nothing but contempt for Bob Dylan, as should be plain from this thread. He appears to me to be a person of little integrity, and even less talent. His most devoted fans appear to me, to be applauding their memories of an idyllic Dylan which never existed. That is my opinion. I have no expectation that Dylan devotees will share it. In fact, I'm sure they will find it to be nearly impossible to even tolerate it in their presence.

Because I don't like Bob Dylan or certain Mudcat posters doesn't make me a mean person. Though people who attempt to conflate personal taste/opinion which conflicts with their own with negative character traits of the person whose tastes they don't share, in my experience, are passive aggressive jerks.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Nancy King at work
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 10:48 AM

I haven't seen the commercial, but I sure have heard about it...

On the radio driving to work this morning, there was a "news" story about it, which included the following:

"Purists might wonder what would make Dylan sell out. To quote a 1965 interview, 'Women's underwear.' "

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 11:08 AM

GUEST of 10:04 am. Right Said Fred. Good Rap.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 01:17 PM

There are a few things Bob does on occasion that I don't like very much...but I still love Bob. This is for 2 reasons.

1. My love for Bob is unconditional. Why? Who knows. I guess because I've known about him very well for a very long time.

2. He's done a lot of wonderful music over the years and put some very powerful ideas in songs.

Among his songs there are a couple that I don't like very much, and a whole bunch that I love.

The Victoria's Secret ad is unusual, intriguing, but it doesn't bother me. I guess that's just a question of individual taste. If Paul Anka had done the ad, I probably would regard it with some contempt, because I have less respect for him than for Dylan.

How many people does one love unconditionally in one's life? Very few, unless one has attained enlightenment. In my case, it's still very few...but I do have a certain measure of goodwill toward just about everybody. Even Don Cherry and George Bush. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 02:13 PM

I admire his music/songs. I am less enraptured with the notion of him doing an ad. And if people could actually get over the idea that there is skin in commercials (seen the cover of Cosmopolitan lately?) and maybe a company is using sex to make a sale, (surprise, surprise) , they might get to the real issue. Why, for God's sake?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 04:51 PM

That is indeed a puzzler. He doesn't need the money or the exposure. He's not short of work. I think maybe he did it out of a sheer contrariness. He likes doing things that people don't expect him to do. He is the eternal inconoclast, forever shattering his own public image so as not to be defined or trapped by it. His album "Self-Portrait", for example, seems to have been calculated in order to alienate his more fanatical fans in the late 60's and make them just go away and leave him alone. I liked some of the stuff on it, though.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Bob Fan
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 04:58 PM

it's a joke. back in 1966 he did an interview where they asked him what he would rather be doing besides writing and performing songs and he said he'd like to sell women's undergarments.

he's simply making his dream come true.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:05 PM

By God, Bob Fan, I think you've got it. It is a joke. I remember that quote now. And notice the sardonic look on his face in the ad. When you're in Bob's position in life you are free to make such jokes whether or not anyone gets it. His album notes and titles are also full of obscure references back to stuff that happened way back in the 60's. "Empire Burlesque" is one example...it was a club where he had played on various occasions when he was starting out.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:13 PM

Maybe he's takin' the money he makes from the commercial and putting it to a shelter for wayward women? Settle down girl guest, maybe he is.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:18 PM

Wonder why the girl guest didn't complain about the makeup worn by the females? Makes them look cheap. Some guest said VS sells underwear. What's with the makeup? And was Bob wearing any?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:34 PM

More importantly, was he wearing a corset? :-)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:13 PM

Now, THAT is a good question.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Bob Fan
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 08:05 PM

He mighta been wearin a dress or one of them funny little man skirts. Don't you find it somewhat suspicious that they don't show any part of him below the neck.

He even might have doilies on around his suspenders. I bet he does!!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 08:10 PM

Show of hands - how many people who have been making comments about the ad have actually watched the entire ad?   Hmmmm...

Guest 10:04am may not realize it, but I actually agree with him/her/it . People do tend to judge others based on their own "yardstick of values".   While it is true, it is very unfair and self-righteous for us to assume anything, just as Guest 10:04 seems to assume that those of us that like the commercial are Dylan "devotees". I admire his music, but I do not let that cloud my feelings about the ad - positive or negative. I wonder if Guest can say the same thing?

Again, this is all a tempest in a teapot over a relatively minor issue. It does appear that those who have placed Dylan on a pedestal can call him a sellout, so be it.   There is nothing wrong with making an honest dollar or honest art.   Dylan can do both, and more power to him.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 08:48 PM

What amazes me is the sheer number of posts on this thread. It's the most successful Dylan thread ever on Mudcat. I'm not sure if I've seen the whole ad or not...I haven't seen it on TV, so I assume I've missed part of it.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Amos
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 08:57 PM

It is possible that the large number of comments are inspired by the sultry Lolita-type angel with the fluffy wings. Try to be objective, now, Little Hawk!! :>))

A

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Matt_R
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 12:48 AM

I love Dylan. Seeing him anywhere is always awesome to me.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:10 AM

"What amazes me is the sheer number of posts on this thread."

Amen. Actually I saw the longer version of the ad as I was flipping channels last night. It's better than a lot of commercials, I could figure out what they were advertising. The young lady was amply covered and, as in most cases, her garb was as dirty or chaste and demure as you make it out to be in your own head.

And if Dylan was learing, he needs to get his learer fixed. I think that was just him acting, generally a mistake.

So why is Dylan selling out to make this commercial and Tiger Woods isn't when he made that Caddyshack spoofing ad? Now that's one funny, musically related commercial ("I'm all right...").

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Bob Fan
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:51 AM

I love Dylan too and I think it's a riot! It makes me laugh every time I see it though my brain doesn't quite sure know what compartment to place it in.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From:
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:26 AM

I'm just glad he isn't wearing a bra and panties himself.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:27 AM

GUEST took them all away from him.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:50 AM

Alas, I shall never find out Victoria's Secret. Hey, girl AND guy guest, do you purchase from VS? Have you written your letters to VS to lodge your complaint--or are you worried that VS will simply throw your missive in the trash because it has no signature? Easy to see where you are coming from.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Jeanie
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:14 PM

Bruce, all is not lost. You may yet find out Victoria's Secret, if my theory is correct. Have a read of my crazed ramblings suggesting that Victoria's Secret is the American equivalent of Joanna Southcott's Box. This sealed box of mystical secrets (which, despite appearing in a Monty Python sketch, really does exist and is taken seriously by some) is only allowed to be opened in the collective presence of 24 Anglican Bishops, in a typically tedious, tea-drinking British kind of way. Two or more centuries since the box was sealed, they haven't managed to get around to it yet. Now, with the appearance of Dylan, the conditions for revealing Victoria's Secret seem to be a lot more interesting. According to my warped "theory", it is only allowed to be revealed in the presence of 24 singer-songwriters, and dear old Dylan just happened to be the first. I reckon you are in with a very good chance of being in on the action, Bruce !

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 02:01 PM

The reason why Dylan is perceived by so many as a sell out is because of the way he cultivated his career image over the years. It was in Dylan's heyday that the "spokeman for his generation" crap started, when his songs with political content were given as proofof that status, which many of us now believe wasn't really an accurate portrayal of Dylan at all. When it was advantageous for him to be perceived as a political radical in tune with the radical left at that stage of his career, he cultivated and courted that image. Many of us believe he was blatantly opportunitistic about it, just as we believe he is being blatantly opportunistic in this era of slick soft porn sex sells sensibilities. It's all about the image with Dylan, it seems to us.

For those of us who have perceived him negatively in this regard all along, or at least were suspicious and wary of it, it has appeared to us that he has continued to cultivate and court that iconic image of himself from those early days right on down to the Victoria's Secret commercial.

BTW, I don't know of any person who would use the words "advertising" and "honest" in the same sentence, but I do understand there are people who actually believe in sexualizing capitalism if that's what it takes to keep the public well sedated and preoccupied.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:55 PM

What's a TV?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:32 PM

"BTW, I don't know of any person who would use the words "advertising" and "honest" in the same sentence, but I do understand there are people who actually believe in sexualizing capitalism if that's what it takes to keep the public well sedated and preoccupied."

I'm disappointed. Are you really sure you couldn't have worked the word "bourgeois" into that sentence? Did you even try?

I promise, Dylan wasn't lying in the ad. He doesn't wear ladies underwear in public. Well, not often, not any more.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:48 PM

Dylan did not seek the "icon" image, he had it thrust upon him while doing what came naturally...playing and writing great songs. As soon as he perceived that he was being used by a large contingency of people as a front man to further their political concerns he became uncomfortable and deliberately stepped out of the mould they were trying to put him in. This has happened repeatedly throughout his career. Dylan's a natural writer. He doesn't write by pre-calculation, it just happens. His sincerity in the protest songs he wrote in the early 60's was as plainly obvious at the time as his sincerity in the late 70's-early 80's when he was preaching a Christian gospel in his songs. He has tried to dodge being labelled ever since about 1963 (when he became famous). Even Joan Baez, who was very upset with Dylan's apparent abandonment of "protest" in the later 60's has stated quite clearly in her writing that there is simply NO WAY that he didn't mean what he said in those early protest songs. What you can't handle, Guest, is that he changed. He did not wish to become someone's icon. People who are unwilling to change themselves don't take it too well when their heroes change. The songs stand on their own merits, and always will.

Nothing can change one's starry-eyed idealism as fast as hanging out with people who are fanatical about something and are determined to make you their spokesman whether you want to be or not. I encountered the same thing when I was hanging out with a lot of Native North Americans, and I got sick of it. Fortunately though, I wasn't famous at the time, so I could just walk away from it all and be left alone.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:08 PM

The suggestion that there is anything I can't handle about Dylan is silly. I don't give a shit about Dylan. I think he is a money grubbing, attention seeking jerk. I think he has cultivated and courted an image that is phony. I don't think much of him as a musician (for instance he has literally no musical talent whatsoever when it comes to singing, and I've never been impressed with his playing either) most of the music he's created.

Why is that so hard for you to handle LH? Hero worship is what it looks like to me, as I said in my post above. For Dylan devotees, he can do no wrong. For the rest of us, there is no reason why we shouldn't use the same yardsticks to measure the man, the musician, the celebrity that we do anyone else.

Don't like my opinion of Dylan? C'est la vie.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:15 PM

So why not just walk away from it GUEST Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:08 PM?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:16 PM

Well, yes, the fact that you "don't give a shit about him" suggests to me that you probably don't know all that much about him either. I mean, why would you if you don't care? How MUCH don't you care? :-) Tell us.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:26 PM

I was evidently mistaken, Guest, when I assumed you were a former fan who got mad when Bob changed. You appear instead to be someone who never got what he was saying in the first place. You have plenty of company out there, but most of them are ignoring this thread. If you knew Dylan's catalog as well as I do you would have to be in some bizarre state of denial to assert that he has no singing talent. Ever been to any live Dylan concerts back in the 60's, 70's, 80's, or even 90's? I agree that his voice is pretty well gone now.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:30 PM

We seem to be confusing vocalist with singer.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:44 PM

More like confusing talent with notoriety.

He never had a decent singing voice, ever.

McGrath, my participation in the thread has been to discuss the commercial and Dylan's part in it. As happens with threads, there has been drift, and I've followed it.

I have seen the entire commercial while watching television a couple of times now, while many of the posters to this thread claim not to have seen it, yet don't feel shy about commenting upon it anyway.

Anyone who has been a part of mainstream culture in the US, and particularly in Minnesota where I live, hasn't been able to escape the Dylan hype over the years. Because I live in his home state, it is nigh on impossible to escape the PR and hype surrounding him, just as it is for Prince (at least he has musical talent), or Garrison Keillor (who also has a lot more notoriety than musical talent, and also cultivates and courts the phony icon status thing).

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 09:54 PM

Just be glad you have escape the Harry Lee Wigley hype...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From:
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 02:44 AM

What's it all coming to?

Here's a link to the commerical in question for your Windows Media Player:

http://mfile.akamai.com/6313/wmv/vs.download.akamai.com/6313/fall_2003/vsangels_300k.wmv

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:53 PM

Yahoo - AP story

Looks like someone from AP is reading Mudcat!   At least he could have done was give me credit for the quote! Why does Dennis Elsas get all the glory??   :)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:58 PM

I don't think I could have any serious regard for the opinions of nayine who doesn't like Garrison Keiller...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:59 PM

I don't think I could have any serious regard for the opinions of anyone who doesn't like Garrison Keiller...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:03 PM

"Where have you been, my blue-eyed son,
Where have you been, my darlin' young one?
"I've been cavorting with scantily-clad ladies...."

"It's some hard, hard, hard, hard,
Yeah, some hard cash is gonna fall...."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:11 PM

And the glorious thread rolls on! :-)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,guest-hater
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:41 AM

You suck dude.
How many albums has Dylan put out? He was a MAJOR influence on Jimi Hendrix, Beatles, Young, Cash, Garcia......and soooo many more. His voice? I cannot understand how people are still commenting on the greatest poet of all times' VOICE!!!???! I mean really, Have you heard his 63' album? How about Desire?? HAve you heard Desire? Hard Rain? Give it rest, you have no idea what you are talking about, he has more voices then hats~!

You SUCK!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:53 AM

And for something far more interesting than debating about a Victoria's Secret ad, check out the wonderful Dylan interview in the Los Angeles Times: got to the threads above (in music section) entitled:

Dylan in the L.A. Times

and...

Review: Bob Dylan - Biography

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: John P
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:24 PM

I haven't seen the ad in question (neither of the links given early in the thread seem to take me there), but all the other VS ads I've seen have been idiotic and offensive. I can only imagine adding a leering Bob Dylan would make them even worse.

My opinions:
Victoria Secret and the attitude it feeds (and feeds off of) helps to create a culture that objectifies women.

A culture that objectifies women helps to encourage violence toward women.

All the women in VS ads are young and "beautiful". Aside from the fact that they look like vapid children to me, this helps to create a culture that defines female beauty and sexuality in terms of a very narrow range of shape and age. Women in the their 40s, 50s, and 60s are so much more sexy than these kids, but our society doesn't notice this, and actually spends millions of dollars telling us that adult women are over the hill as sexually desirable people.

Anyone who uses their fame to make an ad for a major corporation is a sell-out. Especially those who were part of the revolution of ideals in the 60s and 70s. In Dylan's case, he doesn't even need the money. He just wants to get his face out there once again. A career move by someone whose ego is more important that his integrity.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JenEllen
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:08 PM

Whoa there, Nelly....

First off, let me say that I have no real affinity for Bob. Take him or leave him, in all the categories of writing, singing, appearance, I can think of men I enjoy more. HOWEVER, I think this commercial is really a cause for celebration.

(a small aside to JohnP, you might have missed the boat a bit about VS--catalogs are for the most part tasteful, and they manage to make a product that is fairly priced and well-made. Sears and JCPenney don't use 40+ models in their underwear section either. Sexy is what you do with it once you get it home)

Celebration, yes. Both of these entities, Bob and VS, have reached a point in their careers where they can acutally do something as stupid as associate themselves with one another, and it gets this kind of response. Last time I checked, we still lived in the land where any publicity is good publicity, and they have that in spades.

No VS wearer I know is going to throw out their undies because Bob was on a commercial, and no Bob-fan is going to trash their albums and boycott concerts because he was on a commercial. I think they will enjoy the new market, and ignore all the limp-wristed criticisms. Either way, they win.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: John P
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:31 PM

JenEllen, It's interesting that you responded to points I didn't make, while not actually responding to points I did make. It's not about the quality of product or the tastefulness of the catalog. I agree that VS is several steps better in those regards than most of their competition. It's about the attitude and the message. I know that almost no one uses adult models. That was part of my point.

". . . the land where any publicity is good publicity . . ."
How sad that this is true. I still maintain that anyone who uses this fact is a sell-out.

Obviously this ad isn't going to change anyone's mind about VS or about Dylan. It's just not all that important. I like sexy underhings as well as most, but I don't agree with the way they are marketed and sold. I like a lot of Bob Dylan's work, but I don't respect his decision to pursue publicity in a way that, to me, displays a lack of integrity.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:44 PM

"revolution of ideals in the 60s and 70s"

Isn't it a bit hypocritical to boast about revolution of ideals and then deny an artist the right to make their art? With all due respect John, it is one thing to critique a song/video/commercial on it's merit, but aren't you a bit guilty of stereotyping since you admit that you haven't even seen the commercial?

There are plenty of examples of art "objectiving" women throughout the ages, but I disagree that this automatically encourages violence towards women. You can't hide sexuality, that was one of the changes that resulted from the "revolution of ideals in the 60s and 70s".

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:45 PM

By the way, ALL the models in VS are adults

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JenEllen
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:50 PM

You are correct, John, it's not all that important. I don't think any woman who is at all at ease with herself is going to care one way or the other how things are marketed and sold to her, so long as the product itself stands. That was my point.

Bob is enough of a "BOB" to withstand snide remarks and VS has garnered enough of a following that they can do stupid things like prime-time fashion shows (that most of their customers didn't watch anyway) and vapid commercials. All of the chatter here is pointless to either party, simply because it's toothless enough not to matter. Through their previous dealings with their public, they have made enough of a name for themselves that we forgive their little indiscretions in favor of the product.

We had a discussion about this very thing at work this morning, and the consensus was something like this:
"It's what happens when you make a good product. Have you ever worn their "IT" bras? The commercial could have had models mugging old people and retarded children while Bob Dylan is in the background singing "Roll Out The Barrel" and whacking a burlap bag of newborn kittens against the Venician pillars, and I'd have most likely spooned my IT bras and said "They probably weren't real kittens anyway...."

The quality of product from either party is hardly effected by a single ill-planned commercial. The worst they are guilty of is bad judgement.