BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:07 PM

You keep on accusing critics of Israel of wanting Hamas to keep on firing rockets, bruce. You have no grounds for assuming that whatsoever.

From a report today about a demonstration in the town of Sahknin in norhern Israel, where tens of thousands of Israeli Arabs gathered to protest against the attacks on Gaza:

"...Demonstrators waved Palestinian flags, and chanted slogans denouncing Israeli leaders, including 'Gaza will not surrender to the tanks and bulldozers' and 'Don't fear, Gaza, we are with you'.

Following a minute's silence, Sakhnin mayor Mazen Ghanaim said the Israeli military was 'committing crimes in Gaza before the eyes of the international community', but also called on militants to stop firing rockets into Israel..."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:15 PM

"Israel really does not want a peaceful and just settlement with the Palestinians."


Is there some reason to assume that THIS has some grounds??? Not from what I see.

When I see you take exception to claims such as this, I will no longer make such comments- your quote is the first I have seen asking that Hamas stop the rockets, except for Abbas.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:49 PM

Reply to beardedbruce

I have already tried to explain that the illegal Israeli paramilitary settlements on stolen land on the West Bank is increasingly making a two state solution to the crisis impossible.

This is because the hundreds of thousands of armed settlers have built their hilltop fortress settlements on Palestinian land and are increasingly encroaching further, grubbing up orchards,olive groves and farmland. They are demolishing Palestinian homes ,building Israeli only roads and setting up roadblocks and checkpoints across the West Bank holding up Palestinians for hours,isolating towns from their hinterlands and destroying Palestinian businesses. The Israeli government has actively encouraged this land grab in defiance of international law.

Now if that is its response to a two state solution what about a one state solution in which Israelis and Palestinians live together in one democratic state?

That is not even on the political horizion and if it is ever put forward is scoffed at and mocked at by Zionists.

The Israeli government seeks nothing less than the complete surrender of the Palestinian people with the palestinian organisations policing the population on behalf of the Israelis like some tame and timid puppets.

I don't think it is going to work.The illegal occupation has been a disaster for the Palestinians but has also been deeply corrupting and corrosive for Israel itself with Israeli policies being increasingly compared to the hated nazis.

Every night we see more of Gaza being destroyed with mosques and schools blown up,children being killed in growing numbers, indiscriminate shelling and bombing of densely populated city buildings, a hospital being hit and a city blockaded.

The USA is guilty accomplice to these acts of barbarism.And who can believe the liar and bully Bush ,the man who launched that murderous war in Iraq,when he predictably blames Hamas for the carnage in Gaza?

Israel's latest attack on Gaza is only going to further stoke up hatreds .

It needs to radically change course but that is doubtful in such a highly militarisic theocratic regime .

Gideon Levy, a writer for the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, makes many insightful comments about the dehumanising of the Palestinian people and his website is well worth reading.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:10 PM

Folks may detect that something is missing from this map...

                     The Arab World

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:37 PM

Reply to heatherblether:

ifor,

You are ignoring that the Moslim Palestinians GOT their 75% of Mandate Palestine as a homeland in 1923, and NO Jews were allowed to settle there. Now, Israel is willing to give up the West Band (Part of the Mandate Jewish Homeland) for peace, and there are no takers: The offer of peace is met with rocket bombardment of the civilians in Israel. Israel has a population of how many Moslims? And how many Jews were driven out of Moslim countries? And how many Jews did the Moslim countries allow to remain?

If you protest for rights of the 640,000 Moslims who fled from what is now Israel ( that moslim nations refused to settle, even when they had the possession of the West Bank), what do you say about the 820,000 Jews driven from Arab nations ( that Israel resettled)? Or do Jews not have any rights in your worldview?

As I said after the UN failed to enforce the ceasefire terms on anyone but Israel re Lebenon 2007, the international community has thrown away any chance to solve this problem: Israel would be foolish to trust ANY promises that the UN would do anything.


Thus, the actions ( lack of, actually) of the UN and others after September of 2007 have led directly to there being nothing that they can do.

As for fault,

Who unilaterally terminated the cease fire?

Who (continued to) target the civilian population with area mass bombardment weapons, illegal under tha Geneva conventions?

Who now protests the targeting of their military and givernmental superstructure, the legitimate targets in a war?

Still waiting on the UN to enforce the Lebenon ceasefire terms on Hezboallh... Israel compled quite a while ago- WHERE ARE THE KIDNAPPED ISRAELIS????

And you want Israel to let Hamas continue to attack the civilian population????? Or shall I assume as McGrath insists, that you are actually protesting the Hamas actions as well, deep inside where no-one can hear you?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:01 PM

"Israel's latest attack on Gaza is only going to further stoke up hatreds ."

Israel can respond with force to Hamas and Hebullah to end terror bombings, kidnappings and and general havoc and be hated by folks like Heatherblether.

Or

Israel can allow Hamas, Hezbullah or another terrorist group to bomb, kidnap and generally create havoc with impunity, and be hated by folks like Heatherblether.

Either way, Heatherblether, there are so many Israel haters like you in the world that your opinion no longer matters, a few more or less, to Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

Here is a little bit of history you will not get from the Arab propaganda machine:



"PALESTINE?"

  The term "Palestine" came from the name that the conquering Roman Empire gave the ancient Land of Israel in an attempt to obliterate and de-legitimize the Jewish presence in the Holy Land. The name "Palestine" was invented in the year 135 C.E.  Before it was known as Judea, which was the southern kingdom of ancient Israel. The Roman Procurator in charge of the Judean-Israel territories was so angry at the Jews for revolting that he called for his historians and asked them who were the worst enemies of the Jews in their past history. The scribes said, "the Philistines."  Thus, the Procurator declared that Land of Israel would from then forward be called "Philistia" [further bastardized into "Palaistina"] to dishonor the Jews and obliterate their history. Hence the name "Palestine." 

  One more thing. Very often one hears the revisionists and propagandists finding ancient historical links between the "Philistines" ("Invaders" in Hebrew) and the Arab "Palestinians."  There is no truth to this claim! The Philistines were one of a number of Sea Peoples who reached the eastern Mediterranean region approximately 1250-1100 B.C.E.  They were actually an amalgamation of various ethnic groups, primarily of Aegean and south-east European origin [Greece, Crete and Western Turkey] and they died out over 2500 years ago!  Those Philistines were not Arab... and neither was Goliath! The Arabs of "Palestine" are just that... Arabs!  And these Arabs of "Palestine" have about as much historical roots to the ancient Philistines as Yasser Arafat has to the Eskimos! 

  The ancient, indigenous inhabitants of Palestine are long perished from the earth. Canaanites, Phoencians, and then Philistines, all were dominated by the Israelites before 1060 B.C.E.  Most of these cultural identities dissolved completely by the neo-Babylonian age, or, the 6th century B.C.E.  Arabs weren't even in Palestine until the mid-7th century C.E., over a thousand years later, after Palestine's 1,300-year Jewish history. Arabs later living in Palestine never developed themselves or the land, but remained nomadic and quasi-primitive

  Even the word "Palestine" has no meaning in Arabic - every word in Arabic has some meaning deriving from the Koran, but the word "Palestine" does not. If anything, the name "Palestine" was associated with Jews. In the years leading up to the rebirth of Israel in 1948, those who spoke of "Palestinians" were nearly always referring to the region's Jewish residents. For example, the "Palestine Post" [forerunner of today's Jerusalem Post] newspaper and the Palestine Symphony Orchestra were all-Jewish. The "Palestine Brigade Regiment" was composed exclusively of Jewish volunteers in the British World War II Army. In fact, Arab leaders rejected the notion of a unique "Palestinian Arab" identity, insisting that Palestine was merely a part of "Greater Syria."  

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:07 PM

It seems to that the Zionists on Mudcat do not like their pro Israeli stance being challenged in any way at all.

Mass murder is being committed by the Israeli state in Gaza and across the world Israel stands condemned.


But this mass murder is nothing new.Israel was founded on the massacre of Palestinians at places like Deir Yassin in 1948. It was founded on the forced expulsion of Palestinian people from their homeland.The people of Gaza and their parents and grandparents came originally from what is now Israel. Many probably came from the areas just to the north of Gaza.

Massacre,theft and ethnic cleansing has been the reality of the Palestinian experience.They have been bombed,murdered and assassinated not only in Gaza but in refugee camps like Sabra and Shatilla where that old killer Ariel Sharon [who went on to lead the state of Israel ] was held to be responsible for the slaughter of thousands of Palestinian women, children and old people at the hands of fascist death squads despite American gurantees that their lives woild be protected.

So the slaughter is nothing new for the Palestinians.What has changed is the image of "plucky little Israel".That has gone for ever.Gone for good.Now the world can see that it is little more than a terrorist state ,heavily armed with the latest US technology for killing large numbers of civilians .If it is not wrecking Lebanon it is flattening Gaza.

Innocent women and children and others are being killed and maimed in Gaza so that Israeli politicians can look macho when elections come by next month.

These are the truths that the defenders of Israel find hard to hear.

The media ,owned by big business, is on their side.Charlatans like Bush support Israel but increasingly alternative forms of independent media are revealing the truth about the horror unfolding in Gaza and the trail of slaughter that goes back to the earliest days of founding of Israel.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:19 PM

It's interesting how quick some posters here have been to make a significant leap from "critical of Israeli policy" to "Israel Hater" in their synopsis of posters who feel that this current phase of Israeli policy is unacceptable.

Readers may find it interesting to note that many Chinese nationals respond in a similar way to criticism of Chinese official policy in Tibet.

You disagree with our governments policy? therefore you hate us.

I don't hate anyone.

I unreservedly consider current Israeli Government policy in Gaza to be wholly and unacceptable and audacious in the extreme.

I don't care who started what - Murder is Murder.

Please don't anyone try to explain to me that my distaste of its stench is somehow the fault of my palate.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:22 PM

And how do you feel about the policy of the government of Gaza, lox?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:25 PM

Carnage in Gaza...protest in london
An emergency demonstration agaoinst the attack on Gaza will take place on sunday 4th January outside the Israeli Embassy in Kensington,London at 2pm

In addition there will be nightly weekday protest outside the embassy from 5.30pm to 7.30pm also outside the Israeli embassy.

Next saturday [10th Jan ] there will be a national demonstration against the attack on Gaza also in central London.Starts at 2pm.

This evening some 5000 demonstrators have been protesting outside the Embassy .

Further information can be obtained from the Stop The War Coalition website.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:35 PM

"Next saturday [10th Jan ] there will be a national demonstration against the attack on Gaza also in central London.Starts at 2pm."

If I'm late, start without me.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:36 PM

Bobad,

If you wipe the blind spot on your eye and reread my post you will see that my position is extremely clearly stated.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:38 PM

I was on that march this afternoon in London. It was peaceful if vociferous. I wasn't involved in the aftermath in Kensington and if more violence is on the cards then I'm not going to be involved tomorrow either.

Tony Benn said all that needed to be said in about 2 minutes... and summed it up in 9 words (of which I only remember 8); Stop the bombing, stop the slaughter, stop the war.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:40 PM

To clarify ...

"I don't care who started what - Murder is Murder."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:46 PM

Go ahead lox, try real hard, say it:


"I unreservedly consider current Hamas Government policy in Gaza to be wholly and unacceptable and audacious in the extreme."



There, that wasn't so hard now, was it?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:49 PM

I do, but the remedy is even worse.


LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:04 PM

No Sweat Bobad ...

I'll put it in my own words to make it really clear.

Hamas has no right to bombard or to sanction the bombardment of Israeli civilians with Rockets or any other weapons because -

"I don't care who started what - Murder is Murder."


Now - about that blindspot ...


Why don't you "try real hard, say it:"

"sorry lox - I made assumptions about you that are entirely baseless and without any foundation and I unreservedly retract them"


In the meanttime, Israel is going about dealing with this crisis in the wrong way and as we are discussing Israels current policy on this thread, I will offer my opinion of it - sickening.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: paula t
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:11 PM

I feel for the ordinary people on both sides here. They are completely at the mercy of others who have their own agendas and their own reasons for being unable to compromise.
Having been on the receiving end of a rocket attack on a Kibbutz in 1980, I can assure anyone that it is the most terrifying experience imaginable - no matter how "outdated "or "weak" the rockets are deemed to be.There is nothing so terrifying as hearing rockets being launched and hearing them coming through the sky and waiting to find out where they fall.
I hope that someone, somewhere will be brave enough to risk the wrath of his peers and make the first move to peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:13 PM

I would like to offer my wholehearted support and admiration for these Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:59 PM

Palestinians Speak Out Against Hamas

January 2, 2009

(ChattahBox) - President Mahmoud Abbas, leader of the Palestinian National Authority, spoke out today against the actions of Hamas, claiming that their ending of the truce with Israel, and the following bombings that led to Israel's airstrikes, were a ridiculous move that are to be blamed for the most recent conflict.

There has also been a cry of protest from the local media, and according to columnist Abdallah Awwad of the PA Daily, "They thought they have a number of missiles and can therefore prevail in a war of such size. We are paying the price of stupidity and the maniacal love of being rulers."

The attacks from Hamas began two weeks before Israel's counterstrikes, after a six month truce that had been shakily maintained was abruptly dropped by the fanatical group. The PNA had previously begged Hamas not to do this, knowing the consequences of the move would be sereve. The resulting conflict has led to the death of hundreds of citizens of the Gaza Strip, many of which were members of the militant faction.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:06 PM

It is no longer a wait, they went in and intend to kill and move these poor people of their own land while Americans watch and support it.

The Jews have short memories.

This is a sad day.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 07:07 PM

... its still murder ...

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:18 AM

Five Palestinian sisters killed in their beds when an Israeli missile exploded next to their house. They were aged between four and seventeen.
Would these girls have been Hamas?
A sixth sister survived.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:33 AM

What is the difference in this and 1939-45 ? The Gamekeeper has become the poucher.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 05:42 AM

.....3000 miles......

Tony Benn ( Lord Stansgate)? He`s got loads of words but no solutions!

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:56 AM

I `ad this bloke in my cab the other day with a dirty great empty cardboard box.
`e said, " `ere Jim, could you take me up to The Mall and drop me at Downing Street please?"
I said, " Yeah, no problem. You going up there to demonstrate or something?"
`e said, "Nah. I run a shoe shop for one-legged people in `ackney. I`m just going up there to re-stock!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:52 AM

Tony Benn ,president of the Stop The War Coalition,does have a few concrete suggestions...and incidentally as a man who fought in uniform in WW2 he does know something about the foul reality of warfare.His brother was killed in that conflict.
He has called for an end to the bombing of Gazaas a first step towards defusing the on going carnage between Israel and carnage.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:10 AM

10000Israeli anti war protestors demonstarted today in Tel Aviv with placards calling for an end to the siege of Gaza and an end to the occupation. They also called the Israeli leaders mass murders for their role in the attack on Gaza.
As the demonstartion peacefully broke up the last few to leave were attacked by right wing thugs who threatened to finish them off.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:13 PM

Arabs turn against 'megalomaniac' Hamas

ANALYSIS: Abraham Rabinovich | January 01, 2009
Article from: The Australian

THE bitter Israel-Hamas conflict has touched off Arab-Arab conflicts almost as bitter.

Responsibility for the war in Gaza, and for the Palestinian fatalities there, was placed squarely on Hamas by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

"We called the leaders of Hamas and told them, 'Please, do not end the truce'," he said. Hamas ended a six-month truce with Israel two weeks before the Israeli attack.

An Abbas aide, Nimr Hammad, termed the rocket fire into Israel reckless. "The one responsible for the massacre is Hamas," he said. "Hamas should not have given the Israelis a pretext."

Bassam Abu-Sumayyah, a columnist for the daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, accused Hamas of megalomania and said it had acted without even a little bit of political and security sense. It had behaved like a superpower.

"They thought they have a number of missiles and can therefore prevail in a war of such size," he wrote.

A columnist for the PA daily Al-Ayyam, Abdallah Awwad, said that Hamas had made a major mistake in trying to be both a government operating in the open and a resistance organisation that operated underground. "We are paying the price of stupidity and the maniacal

love of being rulers," he said.

Beyond intra-Palestinian disputes, the eruption in Gaza has widened the rift between Egypt, supported by other moderate Arab states, and the Hamas-Iran-Syria-Hezbollah alignment.

Cairo has long feared the radical influence of Hamas on its own Islamist parties. It regards Hamas as a proxy for Iran, which it sees attempting to wrest Muslim leadership in the Middle East from Egypt, even though Iran is not an Arab country.

However, Egypt attempted to broker a reconciliation between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority that would permit a leadership acceptable to all Palestinians to emerge in new elections. Hamas derailed the proposal, to Egypt's fury.

Egypt, in turn, refused to open the border crossing between Gaza and Egypt to Gaza residents, even during the Israeli attack when many Gazans were clamouring to get out. This infuriated Hamas and caused anti-Egyptian protests in much of the Arab world.

For Egypt, the most annoying criticism came from Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, the formidable leader of the Hezbollah in Lebanon. Addressing Egyptian citizens, particularly army officers, Nasrallah called on them to protest at Cairo's lack of response to the Israeli attack.

Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said of Nasrallah's speech: "(He) practically declared war on us." As for Nasrallah's appeal to Egyptian officers, Mr Gheit said of Egypt's army: "They will also protect Egypt against people like you."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:06 PM

It is untrue to claim that Hamas were the first to break the truce.
Firstly Israel never gave up on its economic and military stranglehold of Gaza.This resulted in a city slowly being starved of food,power and medical supplies.Almost half its population are young people or children .The economic and business life of the city was broken as it was denied access to the outside world.
Also Israel continued to kill Palestinians in Gaza.
This was obviously intolerable to Hamas and the wider population.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:37 PM

Israel closed access from and to Israel. I'm afraid that someone else has to take responsibility for closing access from and to Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 02:41 PM

"Almost half its population are young people or children..."

"Birth rate declines only after an area has been rendered miserable by overpopulation." ~ me

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 06:00 PM

'Innocents Abroad' Revisited: 1867-2007

(6 September 07) by Levi Chazen

"The latter generations will say: Your children who will come after you, and the foreigner who will come from a distant land - when they see the plagues of the Land and its illnesses with which HaShem has afflicted it...."

One of the most famous of these "foreigners" to visit the Holy Land, some 150 years ago, was Mark Twain, who wrote about his experiences in his book Innocents Abroad. Twain traveled throughout Europe, worked his way down to Greece and Turkey, then through Syria and finally to the Holy Land. What awaited him in the Holy Land was unlike anything that he had seen before in any other place.

Twain wrote: "Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its field and fettered its energies. Where Sodom and Gomorrah reared their domes and towers, that solemn sea now floods the plain, in whose bitter waters no living thing exists, over whose borders nothing grows but weeds and scattering tufts of cane, and that treacherous fruit that promises refreshment to parching lips, but turns to ashes at the touch."

Could this be the Promised Land, the same land that the Torah tells us is flowing with milk and honey? A land that, the Talmud teaches us, flourished so greatly that when Rami the son of Yechezkel traveled to B'nei Brak, he saw goats eating under big trees, and honey flowed from the figs while milk dripped from the goats and they mixed together, and he exclaimed: "This is it - a land flowing with milk and honey"?

How, then, did the Holy Land, which so flourished in ancient times, turn into a dry and barren land where "even the olive tree and the sabra, those faithful friends of barren lands, were almost completely missing from the land"?

The Torah tells us: "And they will say, because they forsook the covenant of HaShem, the G-d of their forefathers, which He had sealed with them when He took them out of the land of Egypt, and they went and they served the gods of others, and they prostrated themselves to gods that they knew not, and He did not apportion to them."

So great was the desolation of the Land that all who saw her knew that this could only be the hand of G-d: "Sulphur and salt, a conflagration of its entire land, it cannot be sown and it cannot sprout, and no grass shall rise up on it."

Twain writes: "The spell of a curse hovers over her, which has blighted her fields and imprisoned the might of her power with shackles. The Land of Israel is a wasteland and devoid of delight. The Land of Israel is no longer to be considered part of the actual world. We did not see a soul during the entire journey, everywhere we went there was no tree or shrub." (Funny, though, that Twain did not see all of those millions of "Palestinians," the same ones that have been here from time immemorial.)

If Mark Twain would arise today, some 150 years after his historical visit to Israel, he would not believe that he is in the same place, the place that he called "not part of the actual world." Today, the Land of Israel flourishes beyond anyone's wildest imagination; with the return of the Jewish people, we have turned the desert into the Garden of Eden.

Still, this should come as no surprise, as the Talmud already told us: "Rabbi Abba said: There is no clearer sign that the Redemption is at hand than when the trees in the Land of Israel once again give of their fruits."

Looking back at this historical event, who can not stand in wonder at seeing the hand of G-d over the past 150 years in the return of the Jewish people to its land? How could it be that Jews still continue to live in the exile, seeing with their own eyes that the living G-d of Israel is bringing back His people, and that this is His will?

Not forever will the gates remain open. Do not find yourself on the other side, for what will you answer on the Day of Judgment: "I did not see; I did not notice G-d's great hand in history"?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: pdq
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 07:07 PM

Safed - 1834

"This pogrom is known in Jewish history as 'The great plunder of Safed' and it lasted from the 15 of June 1834 to the 17 of July of that year. This pogrom had been forgotten because this whole era of pre – Zionist Palestine, (or the Land of Israel prior to the emergence of the Zionist movement) has been cast aside by more powerful events that happened later, namely the beginning of the Zionist enterprise..."

"The Palestinian Arabs of the Eastern Galilee took advantage of a regional crisis, the war between Egypt and Turkey, to attack their Jewish neighbors and strip them of everything they had: clothes, properties, houses, and the like. In the process people were beaten in the streets, many times to death, synagogues destroyed and holy books desecrated. An entire community of 2,000 souls (Kinglake says 4,000) was forced into hiding for 33 days, in caves, ruins, inhospitable mountaintops, and basements. In that mayhem there were good Arabs who saved lives, like the people of the village of Ein Zeitim and a few individuals, Muslims and Christians from the city itself, but there were also the double crossers who promised to help for a large sum of money, only to hand over the Jews to the rioting mob outside the hideout. For 33 days the lives of the Jews of Safed had practically no value, and anyone of them who showed his or her face in public was at risk of been beaten to death, sometimes by people they knew as neighbors or business associates.
As with all cases of mass racial violence, there were inciters and a government unwilling to do anything about them. In this case, an inciter, a self-proclaimed prophet by the name of Muhammed Damoor who, according to the English traveler Alexander William Kinglake, 'prophesied' the plunder for which he agitated.

Like all other pogroms, it demonstrates the helplessness of the Jewish condition prior to the formation of the state of Israel. Without it, Jews could not defend themselves, and cound not demand treatment as equals, thus the life of a Jew had no actual value. It may have been inevitable that the first Zionist settlers were not immigrants but natives of the land. People like Yoel Moshe Salomon from Jerusalem and Elazar Rokach of Safed and their followers, who saw the answer to their people's plight outside their walled cities and founded Petah Tikvah and Rosh – Pinah in 1878, beginning what is known as practical Zionism."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:45 AM

To be truely fair, the only thing to do is for Israel to treat the Moslims just like the Moslims in surrounding countries have ( from 1948 to present) treated Jews.



So why is anyone complaing about anything that Israel does? ALL that they have done has been a lot better than Jews have received in the Moslim nations.


Oh, that's right- Jews are not human beings, like the Palestinians. It is ok to treat Jews in ways that warrent protest and international condemnation if "real people" are treated that way.

Since there was NO complaints about killing Jews, I have to assume that some of those here prostesting Israel that kept quiet about Hamas rockets actually feel that way.


I started this thread with the following:


--------------------------------------------------------------------
If Israeli rockets had done this, there would be loud screams of protest: I hear a lot of silence....





Palestinian rocket misfires, kills 2 girls in Gaza
   
By IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer Ibrahim Barzak,

Associated Press Writer – GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – A crude rocket fired by Palestinian militants fell short of its target in Israel on Friday, striking a house in the northern Gaza Strip and killing two schoolgirls.

The attack came as Israel sent mixed signals over its plans to respond to continuing Palestinian rocket fire. Israeli defense officials say politicians have approved a large-scale incursion into the territory once rainy conditions clear. But at the same time, Israel appeared receptive to international pressure against an invasion, opening the Gaza border Friday to allow in deliveries of humanitarian aid.

None of Gaza's militant factions claimed responsibility for the deadly attack on the house in Beit Lahiya. Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moiaya Hassanain said the two victims, ages 5 and 12, were cousins. Three other children were wounded, he said.

The girls were the first Palestinian civilians inadvertently killed by militants since their truce with Israel began collapsing six weeks ago. Family members and medics said they were killed by rocket fire.

Israel's crossings with Gaza have been largely clamped tight since Islamic Hamas militants seized control of the coastal strip in June 2007, with only the barest essentials allowed in since a June 19 truce with Gaza gunmen began unraveling six weeks ago.

On Thursday, however, Israel's Defense Ministry said it agreed to open its cargo crossings into Gaza to avoid a humanitarian crisis there. Defense Minister Ehud Barak said the decision followed consultations with defense officials and calls from the international community, suggesting Israel might be open to international pressure to resume the truce.

A total of 106 trucks carried medicine, fuel, cooking gas and other vital goods into Gaza, including a small donation from Egypt, the military said.

Cabinet Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer said the humanitarian shipment was meant to be a message to the people of Gaza that they were not Israel's enemy.

"We are sending them a message that the Hamas leadership has turned them into a punching bag for everyone," he told Israel Radio. "It is a leadership that has turned school yards into rocket-launching pads. This a leadership that does not care that the blood of its people will run in the streets."

Ben-Eliezer echoed the message Prime Minister Ehud Olmert tried to deliver a day earlier in an interview with the Arabic language Al-Arabiya TV station: that Gaza's Islamic Hamas militant rulers were to blame for the suffering in Gaza, home to 1.4 million Palestinians.

But, as with similar cases involving unintended civilian casualties in the past, there were no immediate signs of backlash against the militants after the girls' death.

The militants kept up their fire on Israeli border areas despite Israel's agreement to open its crossings Friday. In all, 13 rockets and mortars were fired toward Israel by Friday evening, the military said. One home was struck but no injuries were reported.

Israel had originally agreed to open the cargo crossings with Gaza on Wednesday, but shut the passages after militants began pounding southern Israel with rockets and mortars.

Pressure has been mounting in Israel for the military to crush Gaza militants, and Israeli leaders have been voicing strong threats in recent days. But on Friday, military officials said the army was planning a routine rotation of its troops along the Gaza border in the coming week. That, coupled with winter weather, made an imminent operation seem unlikely, they said.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not permitted to discuss military strategy publicly.

Israel left Gaza in 2005 after a 38-year occupation and has been reluctant to press ahead with a campaign likely to exact heavy casualties on both sides. Past incursions have not halted the barrages, and officials fear anything short of a reoccupation of Gaza would fail to achieve the desired results.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


And I still hear only claims that Israel HAS to stop its attacks on military targets, and NO demand or demonstrations demading that Hamas stop the rocket attacks on civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 09:57 AM

"Israel has three main demands: an end to Palestinian attacks, international supervision of any truce and a halt to Hamas rearming.

Hamas demands a cessation of Israeli attacks and the opening of vital Gaza-Israel cargo crossings, Gaza's main lifeline."





"Militants, defying the attacks, fired more than two dozen rockets by midday, and Hamas' strongman urged Palestinians to "crush" the invading Israeli forces and target Israeli civilians."



AND TARGET ISRAELI CIVILIANS.

"If the rocket fire came from Gaza (no one is taking credit, so I don't think we can say for sure that it did), and if the people who were responsible were targeting civilians in Israel, then I condemn their actions. "

CarolC

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090105/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 11:07 AM

A Palestinian hospital [Al Awdi ] has been shelled today by the Israeli military.Two shells landed, one only a few metres from the emergency admissions front door which was understandably crowded at the time.
In addition four Palestinian paramedics were killed while trying to reach civilian wounded.
Moreover the Israeli military killed seven members of the same family when a shell hit their home yesterday.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:22 PM

A new meaning for the term "surgical strikes"...

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:29 PM

Sara Roy, a Senior Research Scholar at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard University, discusses the economic reality in Gaza and the West Bank and its effect on Palestinian behavior...

http://fora.tv/2008/10/14/Sara_Roy_Beyond_Occupation

Dr. Roy explodes the myth that Israel pulling the settlers and troops out of Gaza ended Israel's imprisonment of the people of Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 01:31 PM

Must be deaf then, Bruce. Most commentators have called for both sides to stop, and Hamas' behaviour has been condemned by virtually everyone. They're nasty jihadist thugs who came to power in a similar fashion to the way the Nazis came to power in the Thirties.
That doesn't make Israel's 'asymmetrical' campaign right, however.
In the light of that, should Britain have bulldozed the Divis Flats, demolished the Creggan Estate, razed large parts of Derry and launched 'surgical' air strikes against Dublin in the Seventies?
Sadly Israel has about as much subtlety as the USA when it comes to counter-insurgency.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM

updated 43 minutes ago
   Hamas won't stop rocket attacks on Israel

Story Highlights
NEW: Israeli military reports heavy fighting around Gaza City

Hamas military spokesman says rocket attacks won't stop

Israeli military reports 40 rocket strikes in Israel on Monday

Gaza death toll since airstrikes began is above 500, Palestinian sources say
   
GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Hamas militants fired dozens of rockets into southern Israel on Monday despite a 10-day Israeli military campaign that reportedly has left more than 500 Palestinians dead.

Senior Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar says rocket attacks on Israel will continue.

1 of 2 more photos »

Neither Israel nor the Hamas leaders in Gaza showed any sign of considering a cease-fire in the face of continuing international pressure to do so.

"I can understand the eagerness of the international community to see the return to calm," Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told European foreign ministers in Jerusalem. "This is our dream as well. This is what we are looking for. Unfortunately, there are those who cannot accept the idea of living in peace in this region."

Abu Obeida, a spokesman for Hamas' military wing, warned Israel that Izzedine al Qassam Brigades will continue rocket strikes "for many months" and vowed to strike deeper into Israeli territory. He spoke on Hamas' Al-Aqsa TV.

Senior Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar also gave a televised address Monday, saying that the leadership in Gaza salutes "the resistance men" and that their actions were justified because of what Israel has done.

"They [Israeli forces] shelled everyone in Gaza. ... They shelled children and hospitals and mosques," he said. "And in doing so, they gave us legitimacy to strike them in the same way."

Israel on Monday continued its military assault on Gaza from the air and the ground. Heavy fighting erupted Monday night around Gaza City, the Israel Defense Forces said. Earlier in the day, Israeli forces took "tens of Hamas militants" into custody, the military said. IDF also said that fighting between Hamas militants and Israeli troops left several of the militants injured, but it did not say how many. Watch a report on the continued fighting »

Eight Israeli soldiers were lightly wounded during battles with Hamas militants Monday afternoon, IDF said. On Sunday, an Israeli soldier was killed, marking the first military death since the ground operation was launched Saturday night.


'AC360°' live in Israel
CNN's Anderson Cooper reports on the Gaza incursion live from Israel.
Tonight, 10 ET

see full schedule »
The military campaign has not stopped militants in Gaza from firing on southern Israel: 47 rockets and mortars struck Israel on Sunday and at least another 40 on Monday, the Israeli military said.

One of the rockets hit a kindergarten in Ashdod, the military said. The school, like all Israeli educational facilities near the Gaza border, was closed.

The Israeli military said the ground assault -- which was launched Saturday night -- is the second phase of the operation to stop militants from firing rockets and mortars into southern Israel.

Israel began its air assault on Gaza on December 27 to stop the rocket attacks that have killed four Israelis since the military campaign began.

"Before the military operation, the equation was that Hamas targets Israelis whenever it likes, and Israel shows restraint," Livni told foreign ministers from the European Union on Monday.

"This is not going to be [any] longer the equation in this region. When Israel is targeted, Israel is going to retaliate."

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Thousands of Israeli troops, backed by tanks, artillery and helicopters, have pushed deep into Gaza, essentially splitting it into the south and north.

"Every couple of minutes we hear an explosion," Gaza City resident Safa Joudeh said Monday. "We can see tanks coming closer and closer into Gaza."

She said most residents are confined to their homes and are without electricity and running out of food and water.

The ground war has resulted in mounting casualties in Gaza. More than 530 Palestinians have been killed since Israel launched its operation, including at least 100 women and children, according to Palestinian medical sources. That number includes 82 Palestinians killed since the ground invasion -- 30 of them children and 20 women, the sources said. In addition, 2,750 Palestinians have been injured, most of them civilians, the sources said. iReport.com: Share reactions to "all-out war" in Gaza

Israel also stepped up its psychological campaign Monday, trying to turn Gazans against Hamas.

"Urgent message, warning to the citizens of Gaza," said a recorded phone call to Gaza resident Moussa El-Hadad. "Hamas is using you as human shields. Do not listen to them. Hamas has abandoned you and are hiding in their shelters."

The Israeli military also dropped leaflets into the streets of Gaza warning residents that the IDF will continue using "full force against Hamas." It also warned that the military "also has other means to deal with Hamas."

"If the army uses them, the toll will be very painful," said the leaflet, signed by IDF command.


A delegation of EU foreign ministers is in Jerusalem to push for a truce, while Egypt is putting pressure on Hamas leaders in Gaza.

Israel on Monday allowed 80 trucks filled with humanitarian supplies to pass into Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:41 PM

I SAID YOU MUST BE DEAF, BRUCE!
CAN YOU HEAR ME THROUGH ALL THE FROTH?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:55 PM

Shout all you want- I am listening to a number of sources, demonstrators, and national representatives- and there are far more telling Israel to stop than telling Hamas to stop.

something like 95%, from the reports I am seeing.



Israel has stated they would stop when Hamas stopped fireing rockets at civilians.

"Senior Hamas official Mahmoud al-Zahar says rocket attacks on Israel will continue. "



Hardly "Most commentators have called for both sides to stop, and Hamas' behaviour has been condemned by virtually everyone."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 03:58 PM

"Israel has three main demands: an end to Palestinian attacks, international supervision of any truce and a halt to Hamas rearming.

Hamas demands a cessation of Israeli attacks and the opening of vital Gaza-Israel cargo crossings, Gaza's main lifeline."



BTW, where are the two Israeli soldiers that the last UN truce (Lebenon) said should be returned?

And why was Hezboallah allowed to rearm after the UN Truce, in violation OF THOSE TRUCE TERMS?

Or is it only Israel that should bother to comply with UN truce terms, again and again?



"Militants, defying the attacks, fired more than two dozen rockets by midday, and Hamas' strongman urged Palestinians to "crush" the invading Israeli forces and target Israeli civilians."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

"Abu Obeida, a spokesman for Hamas' military wing, warned Israel that Izzedine al Qassam Brigades will continue rocket strikes "for many months" and vowed to strike deeper into Israeli territory. He spoke on Hamas' Al-Aqsa TV."


Not some group of extremists, but HAMAS, the elected government of Gaza...

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: heatherblether
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:40 PM

The siege of Gaza has been going on for around 18 months.Before the air attack was launched two weeks ago life was already intolerable for the Palestinian population of Gaza.

The air,sea borne and land invasion of Gaza has compounded the very many crimes the Israeli politicians and military have committed against civilians.Large numbers of women and children blown up or shot down.
Clinics,ambulances,hospitals and mosques attacked with missiles and shells.Apartment blocks flattened.

President Bush was recently described accurately as a" bloodthirsty moron". The same description can be applied to the Israeli foreign minister,a nonentity called Tzipi Livni, who said a few days ago
"There is no humanitarian crisis in the [Gaza] strip and therefore no need for a humanitarian truce".

Israel is an illegal occupying power in Gaza and the West Bank. For decades it has imprisoned,humiliated,oppressed and massacred Palestinians.

Its behaviour these past few weeks reeks of racisism, barbarism and criminality....and mass murder.

Actually the behaviour of the Israeli state will come as no surprise to anyone who has followed events in the Middle East.

Israel has consistently portrayed the Palestinians as savage beasts.They have used laws,the military,education and the media to dehumanise the Palestinian people.

You have to ask the question what rights do Palestinians have under the rule of Israel? The answer is as far as I can see is the right to be kicked around,bullied and blown up.

Israel has kept international reporters out of Gaza for good reason.It will not allow international peacekeepers in Gaza for similar reasons.War crimes are being committed against a civilian population by the Israeli war machine and it is less embarrassing for the criminals to have no witnesses.

"The executioners face is always well hidden"

There will be a huge national demonstration in London on saturday the 10th January to protest at the slaughter in Gaza.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 04:43 PM

And the demonstration to protest the Hamas rockets targeting civilians???????

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:26 PM

Bruce, you started the thread saying that "if Israeli rockets had done this, there would be loud screams of protest: I hear a lot of silence...."

You only need to read the national Israeli paper Haaretz to see the range of conflicting views from within Israel about the current war.

Israeli historian Tom Segev argued that a flawed assumption has accompanied the Zionist movement since its inception, and that is the belief that military strikes against the Palestinians will "teach them a lesson". He describes the flawed assumptions behind military policy this way "We are the representatives of progress and enlightenment, sophisticated rationality and morality, while the Arabs are a primitive, violent rabble; ignorant children who must be educated and taught wisdom … The bombing of Gaza is also supposed to 'liquidate the Hamas regime', in line with another [Zionist] assumption: that it is possible to impose a 'moderate' leadership on the Palestinians, one that will abandon their national aspirations."

Yossi Alpher, a former Mossad operative turned commentator, has commented that the treatment of Gaza has not manipulated the Palestinians into hating Hamas, but has probably been counter-productive. It is just useless collective punishment.

it took a week of relentless air attacks and the death of about 400 Gazans before Israel could name a single Hamas victim of standing.

Within Israel, there is despair, exhaustion, anger, but there is debate. The former head of the Mossad intelligence service, Ephraim Halevy, argues that it is in Israel's interest to negotiate with Hamas. Yossi Alpher agrees that as a strategic approach to Hamas, the offer to talk and recognise is a viable option which has not been taken.

But the hardline Binyamin Netanyahu wants a second stint as prime minister, and there's an election coming up. Netanyahu says that not only will he not talk to Hamas, but that the present military operation should be expanded to wipe it out of existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jan 09 - 05:41 PM

When Hamas with its inaccurate rockets kills civilians that is clearly what they are trying to do. When Israel with its state of the art weaponry kills civilians, that is obviously completely accidental and undesired.

That's clear enough...